The Irish language is failing.

recipio

You can thank Eamon O' Keefe......sorry O' Cuiv :rolleyes:

dr.fuzzenstein

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I'm with you on this one. It's the state's job not to have these kinds of wasteful pointless resource pits. I can't blame anyone for taking the easy option on what is essentially a handout for (most likely) being raised by parents who have a particular, entirely non-useful, skill.

In a lot of state jobs the only "skill" you needed to get in was for your parents to know the right people. You were then taken to your interview by your mom, age 17-18 and that was your job for life.
In the 80's it was a posh way of being on the dole.

Dan_Solo

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

In a lot of state jobs the only "skill" you needed to get in was for your parents to know the right people. You were then taken to your interview by your mom, age 17-18 and that was your job for life.
In the 80's it was a posh way of being on the dole.

Whatabout that for whataboutery!

DyldeBrill

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

That's the point, Irish has no business being an official EU language.

I won't read those documents, you won't read those documents, no one will but we still divert money away from other much needed services to keep these parasites in a job.

I personally would read those documents and I know many more who would too. How does this make us parasites?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

DyldeBrill wrote: »

I personally would read those documents and I know many more who would too. How does this make us parasites?

Its one thing to want to, its another to actually need to.

The problem is that its not the best use of resources. The Irish language is allocated a certain amount of funding for whatever useage those in the know see fit. The question is:

Should it be used to promote the language and attract new speakers, or shoulf it be used for the creation of documentation already created in a comprehensible language.

If it was me, and the language was genuinely my interest, I'd be choosing the first. That said, if I couldn't care less about the language as long as I got paid, then I'd be choosing the second.

Which would mean I would feeding myself on funds that should really be the life-force of the language.

boardise

BTW -what's the Gaelic for 'parasite' ?

DyldeBrill

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Its one thing to want to, its another to actually need to.

The problem is that its not the best use of resources. The Irish language is allocated a certain amount of funding for whatever useage those in the know see fit. The question is:

Should it be used to promote the language and attract new speakers, or shoulf it be used for the creation of documentation already created in a comprehensible language.

If it was me, and the language was genuinely my interest, I'd be choosing the first. That said, if I couldn't care less about the language as long as I got paid, then I'd be choosing the second.

Which would mean I would feeding myself on funds that should really be the life-force of the language.

Don't get me wrong there is plenty money wasted in trying to revitalise the language instead of putting it elsewhere but my problem was his initial comment. I would prefer to read documentation through Irish, it's my first language, yet by doing this makesme a parasite? It's this narrow minded view that angers me. Hate the language all you want but don't take the hate out on people that actually live their daily lives through Irish. They are only doing what is natural to them.

This documentation is still very useful for the elderly who's English is pretty weak as opposed to their Irish . I see Irish documentation being abolished in the future but for the time being I think it's very necessary .

DyldeBrill

boardise wrote: »

BTW -what's the Gaelic for 'parasite' ?

By all means look it up on google with this new sudden interest of yours.

Dan_Solo

DyldeBrill wrote: »

This documentation is still very useful for the elderly who's English is pretty weak as opposed to their Irish .

I simply don't believe this. It'd still be cheaper to translate document to order, hell give people an interpreter for the day on the state's tab, than the current money torching method.

DyldeBrill

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I simply don't believe this. It'd still be cheaper to translate document to order, hell give people an interpreter for the day on the state's tab, than the current money torching method.

That's perfectly fine if you don't believe me. It's actually a well know thing in Connemara and the islands can't speak for the rest of the Gaeltacht areas as I havnet witnessed it. I've witnessed it in the places mentioned. Have you been in that part of the country to experience it yourself? Or do you just choose not to believe it out of ignorance ?

Interpreters could prove just as expensive also.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

DyldeBrill wrote: »

Don't get me wrong there is plenty money wasted in trying to revitalise the language instead of putting it elsewhere but my problem was his initial comment. I would prefer to read documentation through Irish, it's my first language, yet by doing this makesme a parasite? It's this narrow minded view that angers me. Hate the language all you want but don't take the hate out on people that actually live their daily lives through Irish. They are only doing what is natural to them.

This documentation is still very useful for the elderly who's English is pretty weak as opposed to their Irish . I see Irish documentation being abolished in the future but for the time being I think it's very necessary .

Here's this "hate" again - where have I said I hated the langauge? Or anyone or anything connected with it?

You're not the parasite, the person who takes the job of translation and takes the money is the parasite.

How many people would actually require this?

I can understand the need for a specific document being translated into Irish, but evey single one of them...? Is there some reason why we can't just hire a professional translator on a freelance basis as and when needed?

Dan_Solo

DyldeBrill wrote: »

That's perfectly fine if you don't believe me. It's actually a well know thing in Connemara and the islands can't speak for the rest of the Gaeltacht areas as I havnet witnessed it. I've witnessed it in the places mentioned. Have you been in that part of the country to experience it yourself? Or do you just choose not to believe it out of ignorance ?

Interpreters could prove just as expensive also.

I've never been in any part of Ireland where they couldn't speak perfectly good English. If they wanted to.
I don't believe it due to your own overwhelming shocking embarrassing pig ignorance. Plenty of people in Ireland have trouble with English and have to put up with translators for official business.
None of them are people are Irish speakers.

Iwasfrozen

boardise wrote: »

BTW -what's the Gaelic for 'parasite' ?

According to my dictionary the animal is seadán. But súmairí (leeches) is a better translation when talking about people.

Edit: Just so the non existent little old ladys who only speak Irish in the West can understand:

"Níl iontu ach súmairí ag maireachtáil ar allas na hÉireannaigh."

DyldeBrill

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Here's this "hate" again - where have I said I hated the langauge? Or anyone or anything connected with it?

You're not the parasite, the person who takes the job of translation and takes the money is the parasite.

How many people would actually require this?

I can understand the need for a specific document being translated into Irish, but evey single one of them...? Is there some reason why we can't just hire a professional translator on a freelance basis as and when needed?

Never said you yourself hated the language but can understand how you could get this confused with the way I worded my comment. People will hate against the language as they are perfectly entitled to do so.the hate in which I was referring to was the parasite comment. You can't lable anyone a parasite for doing their job for the people that need to avail of the service.

I have no solid number for you of how many people need this all I know is that it is needed in places.It may be a small minority, but it is truly beneficial to them. there will need to be some compromise however in looking at doing this at a cheaper rate. This is yet to be seen but something needs to be put into place.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

DyldeBrill wrote: »

I have no solid number for you of how many people need this all I know is that it is needed in places.It may be a small minority, but it is truly beneficial to them. there will need to be some compromise however in looking at doing this at a cheaper rate. This is yet to be seen but something needs to be put into place.

Doesn't really answer my question as to the need for every document as against the required documents as and when needed.

Also, and this is not me trying to be respectful, but if someone has managed to grow up in a predoinatly English speaking country, are they going to be able to digest the jargon of discriptive and detailed legal acts? I mean, the English versions are pretty heavy going at the best of times and I'm just finding it difficult to beleive that there are enough people who would have no problem with the Irish version but don't speak any English to have every single act translated.

DyldeBrill

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I've never been in any part of Ireland where they couldn't speak perfectly good English. If they wanted to.
I don't believe it due to your own overwhelming shocking embarrassing pig ignorance. Plenty of people in Ireland have trouble with English and have to put up with translators for official business.
None of them are people are Irish speakers.

Outline my pig ignorance if you will. Its been a recent topic in the last few years on radio na gaeltachta yet you just choose not to believe it. Fair enough.thats your choice.

As for the rest of your comment, ,maybe you could expand what your trying to say so I can answer you properly.

boardise

If there are any such poor unfortunates around whose English is weaker than their Gaelic they must be quite elderly ,almost certainly retired and quite unlikely to be engaging directly with formal official matters that require explanatory documentation. In any event the obvious solution for such people would be to contact relatives ,neighbours or friends or ,failing all of these, a suitable branch of social support services who could help them get their business done.
I would submit that this particular consideration does not justify the costly production of great tonnages of documents that are concocted from dictionaries ,are difficult if not impossible to read and where the language in them is far removed from that of any native speaker.

DyldeBrill

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Doesn't really answer my question as to the need for every document as against the required documents as and when needed.

Also, and this is not me trying to be respectful, but if someone has managed to grow up in a predoinatly English speaking country, are they going to be able to digest the jargon of discriptive and detailed legal acts? I mean, the English versions are pretty heavy going at the best of times and I'm just finding it difficult to beleive that there are enough people who would have no problem with the Irish version but don't speak any English to have every single act translated.

To answer your question yes not all documents are needed, how they could determine which ones to translate is a different story. In terms of legal documentation I sure the majority have sufficient English but not everyone. its a case of finding a solution for the people that don't

DyldeBrill

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

According to my dictionary the animal is seadán. But súmairí (leeches) is a better translation when talking about people.

Edit: Just so the non existent little old ladys who only speak Irish in the West can understand:

"Níl iontu ach súmairí ag maireachtáil ar allas na hÉireannaigh."

Irish was spot on.

Pretty disheartening to see that you couldn't care less for the elderly people and quite sad really. Put yourself in their position. Might be all a laugh and a joke for you but it would be certainly not the cAse if all documentation was abolished.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

DyldeBrill wrote: »

To answer your question yes not all documents are needed, how they could determine which ones to translate is a different story. In terms of legal documentation I sure the majority have sufficient English but not everyone. its a case of finding a solution for the people that don't

Solutions have been found - less than ten posts ago - they're just not implemented.

Iwasfrozen

DyldeBrill wrote: »

Irish was spot on.

Pretty disheartening to see that you couldn't care less for the elderly people and quite sad really. Put yourself in their position. Might be all a laugh and a joke for you but it would be certainly not the cAse if all documentation was abolished.

How many mono-lingual Irish speakers are there in Ireland? As has been stated any who do exist would very likely be retired and unlikely to be dealing with the state in any manner which required complicated documentation.

Deranged96

Filmed in 1985, so its not that hard to imagine Irish speaker with weak English in existence, considering this man had none at all.

Dan_Solo

Deranged96 wrote: »

Filmed in 1985, so its not that hard to imagine Irish speaker with weak English in existence, considering this man had none at all.

Pointless, utterly irrelevant twaddle. Finland has a fully functioning, ubiquitously used native languages: Finnish and Swedish. What bizarre point do you imagine you have finding somebody somewhere on earth who can't speak a foreign language? Neither can somebody who only speaks Irish and English!

Deranged96

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Pointless, utterly irrelevant twaddle. Finland has a fully functioning, ubiquitously used native languages: Finnish and Swedish.

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I've never been in any part of Ireland where they couldn't speak perfectly good English. If they wanted to.
I don't believe it due to your own overwhelming shocking embarrassing pig ignorance. Plenty of people in Ireland have trouble with English and have to put up with translators for official business.
None of them are people are Irish speakers.

DyldeBrill wrote: »

Don't get me wrong there is plenty money wasted in trying to revitalise the language instead of putting it elsewhere but my problem was his initial comment. I would prefer to read documentation through Irish, it's my first language, yet by doing this makesme a parasite? It's this narrow minded view that angers me. Hate the language all you want but don't take the hate out on people that actually live their daily lives through Irish. They are only doing what is natural to them.

This documentation is still very useful for the elderly who's English is pretty weak as opposed to their Irish . I see Irish documentation being abolished in the future but for the time being I think it's very necessary .

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I simply don't believe this. It'd still be cheaper to translate document to order, hell give people an interpreter for the day on the state's tab, than the current money torching method.

It wasn't irrelevant when you were arguing that no such people with weak English and fluent Irish exist?

Dan_Solo

Deranged96 wrote: »

It wasn't irrelevant when you were arguing that no such people with weak English and fluent Irish exist?

You appear entirely bewildered yet again. English is not a national language in Finland. Why in the name of Christ are you trying to make a point about somebody there not speaking it? The analogy would be finding somebody in Ireland who can't speak Chinese.

Deranged96

Dan_Solo wrote: »

You appear entirely bewildered yet again. English is not a national language in Finland. Why in the name of Christ are you trying to make a point about somebody there not speaking it? The analogy would be finding somebody in Ireland who can't speak Chinese.

Who in the name of Jesus is on about Finland?

You claimed that you did not believe that there are parts of Ireland where there are people with inadequate English.

I gave a primary source of information that showed there was a man with no English alive and kicking in 1985.

You called it irrelevant.

That's it. I'm not entertaining you about Finland, I just wanted to post that clip.

You seem to have two approaches to discussion:
The "That doesn't count" approach and the twisty twisty words approach.

Can you not just say "Oh maybe I was wrong, maybe there are people who can benefit from Irish translators" or else "That man and people like him are all gone". The topic at hand was the need or lack thereof for translators, not the Finnish approach to language

johnny osbourne

ta se ag cur báiste

Iwasfrozen

Deranged96 wrote: »

Who in the name of Jesus is on about Finland?

You claimed that you did not believe that there are parts of Ireland where there are people with inadequate English.

I gave a primary source of information that showed there was a man with no English alive and kicking in 1985.

You called it irrelevant.

That's it. I'm not entertaining you about Finland, I just wanted to post that clip.

You seem to have two approaches to discussion:
The "That doesn't count" approach and the twisty twisty words approach.

Can you not just say "Oh maybe I was wrong, maybe there are people who can benefit from Irish translators" or else "That man and people like him are all gone". The topic at hand was the need or lack thereof for translators, not the Finnish approach to language

I highly doubt that man is still alive. Let alone reading state documents.

What is your argument here? How many mono lingual Irish speakers are alive and how many read state documents? It's a total non issue.

Deranged96

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I highly doubt that man is still alive. Let alone reading state documents.

What is your argument here? How many mono lingual Irish speakers are alive and how many read state documents? It's a total non issue.

I don't believe there are any monolingual Irish speakers alive today. I didn't have an argument. It was just a clip I was aware of pertaining to the topic. Relevant background, if you will.

Sweet sufferin' Jesus.

Iwasfrozen

Deranged96 wrote: »

I don't believe there are any monolingual Irish speakers alive today. I didn't have an argument. It was just a clip I was aware of pertaining to the topic. Relevant background, if you will.

Sweet sufferin' Jesus.

Great then there's no problem.

recipio

The whole area of Irish compulsion should have been swept away when DeV died in 1975. For some reason there is an entrenched mentality in the mandarins of the Irish administration that knows what is good for us. Metal detecting is banned here for instance but is a thriving hobby in the UK. Ownership of airguns by responsible adults is virtually banned but again a thriving hobby with clubs and shops in the whole of the EU - except here. I'm off topic a little but these are metaphors for a rigid attitude to State control of our lives.

764dak

Irish should be preserved.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

764dak wrote: »

Irish should be preserved.

It is

764dak

764dak wrote: »

Irish should be preserved.

No, it should be spoken by those who want to use it to communicate with others who want to also use it, but those speakers should be able to do so without feeling self conscious about it.

Use it or lose it.

The Corinthian

Deranged96 wrote: »

I gave a primary source of information that showed there was a man with no English alive and kicking in 1985.

Presently we have evidence of a single Irish monoglot in existence thirty years ago.

Unless one were to be on magic mushrooms, no one can claim that even the mere existence of such people to be anything other than an incredibly rare anomaly. Yet, for presumably one person it is argued that it makes sense to fund an entire national translation service for all official documentation for just them.

Ahh... the aul gravy train just keeps on rolling...

dr.fuzzenstein

FYP and just to give everyone a small break:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqYtG9BNhfM

The Dark Side

recipio wrote: »

. For some reason there is an entrenched mentality in the mandarins of the Irish administration that knows what is good for us.

It would be a good idea if we stopped electing school teachers to the Dail as well.

20% of the current make up are teachers.

The Dail before was 25%.

Crazy the over-representation of one cosseted sector of society with their entrenched views on the importance of shovelling Irish down the throats of school kids.

boardise

All together now...

Umam; Umat; Uime; Uimpi; Umainn ; Umaibh; Umpu.

Faram; Farat; Fairis; Fairsti; Farainn; Faraibh; Farstu.

Grayson

Deranged96 wrote: »

Filmed in 1985, so its not that hard to imagine Irish speaker with weak English in existence, considering this man had none at all.

I had a friend from Kildare who's sad moved there in the late 70's early80's. When he moved he spoke no English. He'd grown up in the gaelteacht.

That's 30-40 years ago. He writes and speaks English now.

The world has moved along a lot since then. I very much doubt that thee's anyone left who speaks only Irish. If there is, they should sue the state because they were really let down by the educational system.

boardise

Would that more attention was given to the fact that 20-25% of Irish people are functionally illiterate in English.

An Ciarraioch

boardise wrote: »

All together now...

Umam; Umat; Uime; Uimpi; Umainn ; Umaibh; Umpu.

Faram; Farat; Fairis; Fairsti; Farainn; Faraibh; Farstu.

Think you mean uaim, uait, uaidh, uaithi, uainn, uaibh, uathu there.

recipio

boardise wrote: »

All together now...

Umam; Umat; Uime; Uimpi; Umainn ; Umaibh; Umpu.

Faram; Farat; Fairis; Fairsti; Farainn; Faraibh; Farstu.

Stop showing off.

An Ciarraioch

boardise wrote: »

Would that more attention was given to the fact that 20-25% of Irish people are functionally illiterate in English.

That's all down to teaching methods and resources though, if Irish were scrapped tomorrow, that time wouldn't be allocated to English.

PopePalpatine

I think I remember a scene from "In The Name of the Fáda" where Des Bishop encounters a man who could only speak Irish. I can't remember how old he was, though.

boardise

Oh a Ciarraíoch (mallaithe ?) appears in our midst.

No actually -'um' and 'ó' are different prepositions.

I'm just having a bit of fun with some wry humour ...which I know is always dangerous and open to misinterpretation.
e.g. my remarks about the Gaelic for parasite and the declension of Gaelic prepositions are intended to show hard it is for people to use Gaelic spontaneously ...for lack of vocabulary (they have always to be looking up dictionaries) and for having to grapple with difficult lists of verbal and prepositional paradigms and declensions.

Good Lord ,I hope anything I write here that implies erudition doesn't lead to anyone feeling inadequate .

the_monkey

IrishTrajan wrote: »

Quote:
It has been argued that Gaeilgeoirí tend to be more highly educated than monolingual English speakers and enjoy the benefits of language-based networking, leading to better employment and higher social status.[9] Though this study has been criticised for certain assumptions,[10] the statistical evidence supports the view that such bilinguals enjoy certain educational advantages.
Quote:
Constitution:

1. The Irish language as the national language is the first official language.
2. The English language is recognised as a second official language.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_...Irish_language


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_the_Irish_language

Sure, I'm sure everyone who is fluent in Irish is a very educated person (all the people I know are anyway) and has no problem getting a good job.
- Just like people fluent in Latin are most likely highly educated and skilled people.
It doesn't change the fact that Latin and Irish are in practical terms dead languages.

I'm not anti Irish, I wish I could know a bit more myself, but the system
is flawed - make it optional after the junior cert - it will improve the level of those who choose to study it.

Donalinger

the way I see it they should make it optional after the Junior Cert.
Too many people have no interest and it is hard to get people to embrace the language, I say this as a fluent speaker.

The reality is we lost the battle many years ago.
We have Primary School teachers who are not fluent teaching our children, and than those children go to secondary school with a poor level of Irish, where they meet more Irish teachers who are average.

You cannot expect to have Irish as a LC compulsory subject but have poor quality teachers. Its not fair.

recipio

Donalinger wrote: »

the way I see it they should make it optional after the Junior Cert.
Too many people have no interest and it is hard to get people to embrace the language, I say this as a fluent speaker.

The reality is we lost the battle many years ago.
We have Primary School teachers who are not fluent teaching our children, and than those children go to secondary school with a poor level of Irish, where they meet more Irish teachers who are average.

You cannot expect to have Irish as a LC compulsory subject but have poor quality teachers. Its not fair.

Well said.
I think most students instinctively feel that Irish is utterly irrelevant to their post school lives. It is in fact part of a political agenda launched at the foundation of the State and perpetuated by people who happen to be good enough at it to get a college degree. I was taught by Christian Brothers who themselves were second and third sons off farms who had 'Republican ' sympathies. It is part of a pan nationalist agenda which is slowly receeding, but not fast enough.

The Dark Side

As with most things in Ireland, we'll eventually move in the right direction and remove both the compulsory nature of it in schools and it's designation as one of our official languages.

We'll then wonder why it ever took us so long to do it.

Availability of contraception, Legalisation of homosexuality, Divorce, Same sex marriage....we will continue down the path to throw off the shackles of our ultra-conservative, ultra-religious and ultra-nationalistic past.
The Irish Language will follow.
We will be finally allowed to turn off the (eye-wateringly expensive) life-support machine that has kept this long dead language 'alive' these past few generations.

An Ciarraioch

Interestingly, a Polish student in Tralee got an A1 in the Honours Leaving exam, which suggests personal aptitude towards languages is key to skill development.