The Irish language is failing.

briany

You have to wonder why Irish hasn't been able to make a resurgence when Irish games have remained popular, as has Irish music. So there are big facets of Irish culture which remain, which haven't been 'beaten out of us', and have been able to do it without compulsory education. It's not as if Ireland has become, or is in danger of becoming, a cultural vassal of England. Even if you argue that it is, there's nobody putting a British/English language magazine or book in your hand, there's nobody forcing you to watch the BBC instead of TG4, there's nobody telling you to prefer Rock/Pop music over Seán Nós. We live, arguably, in the greatest ever time in terms of resources for learning Irish, with the Internet, learning resources, Gaelscoileanna etc.

So what is it that keeps English on top? What is that means I'm typing in English right now? What are the things which caused Ireland to make that language shift, and kept it in place. We've seen in Wales that if the will is there, people can retain their language, despite pressure put them them to do otherwise. To an extent, we can blame the punitive and educational measures that helped shrink the Irish language, but cannot forget about the apparent lack of will on the part of the government and people to change things when the country, ostensibly, became in charge of its own destiny.

The question that needs to be answered with Irish, I think, before it can truly make inroads back into contemporary life of people who'd otherwise be speaking English, to stop the ongoing shrinking of the Gaeltachts is - how do you make Irish relevant to people today?
How is it the language of the future, rather than the past? How is it the language of opportunity? How do you get the person who's not particularly interested in poetry and prose to investigate the language and speak it in the home? What social barriers does it break down?

222233

I am sorry but my issue with this is that the majority of the people forced to learn Irish in schools do not need to / want to learn it. I don't even want to know what having Irish as a compulsory secondary school language costs the tax payer/state but its disgraceful. Irish would be more magical if the people who spoke it/learnt it were people who actually want to learn it, opposed to making people despise the language that was forced upon them

Un Croissant

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Why is it on the decline in areas that used to speak it fluently ?

No idea. The internet would be a massive factor. Not to mention that anything worth watching comes in English.

LDN_Irish

tipparetops wrote: »

that was 1948, we had our chance than as well and did not take it.
In 1948 Israel introduced a policy of only Hebrew being used by public bodies,
so for example if you wanted get a driving licence the form was Hebrew only.
Public Servants would only speak Hebrew, everyone had to learn the language.
schools thought Hebrew as the main language.

Israels government practically forced the people to learn the language.
It was a great policy and one Ireland should have adopted.

I really can't see how only 5% of Irish drivers holding a driving license would be beneficial for the language.

Infini

Sas truth is that Irish is effectively redundant with no practical application in todays world. Might be better to just let this one go its been gone out of daily life for decades now.

ronivek

Students are taught Geography and History and Business and so on; but I doubt very many of them would be able to hold an intelligent debate or discussion on many of the topics encountered.

The reality is that the Leaving Certificate is laying a generic foundation for your adult life; it's not giving you the skills or insight to be particularly skilled at any one subject unless you're actively putting in extracurricular effort. I would say that includes languages.

I mean if all Irish children were taught in Irish from the first day of school until the last; Irish wouldn't be dying. The question then becomes how do you ensure our English is allowed to flourish too; and I would argue that would happen almost naturally because the vast majority of our entertainment is consumed in English.

As to how you bridge that gap between parents who probably don't speak Irish and kids who can speak enough Irish to begin learning in school; I don't really know precisely. Not to mention how do you ensure the teachers can actually speak Irish well enough to teach in it. It would probably be very difficult.

Ultimately I think there would need to be a significant desire to make Irish a major part of life in Ireland; and I don't see that existing in any way, shape, or form.

Personally speaking as an adult who spent 12 odd years being taught Irish and can just about say "may I go to the toilet?"; I would love to learn the language properly. I just don't really have the time.

feargale

tipparetops wrote: »

that was 1948, we had our chance than as well and did not take it.
In 1948 Israel introduced a policy of only Hebrew being used by public bodies,
so for example if you wanted get a driving licence the form was Hebrew only.
Public Servants would only speak Hebrew, everyone had to learn the language.
schools thought Hebrew as the main language.

Israels government practically forced the people to learn the language.
It was a great policy and one Ireland should have adopted.

You're coming dangerously close to the language policies of that weird and wonderful 1940s party Ailtirî na h-Aiséirghe, which would have criminalised the public use of English. I suspect that anyone who sought to regiment the Irish people to such a degree would be told to f--- off, probably in Irish as well as English, by the majority of them. It depends on one's priorities - the Irish language or fundamental language rights.

irishlad12345

50-90% of the worlds languages will be extinct by 2100 i fear irish will be one of them

feargale

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

1.77 million said they could speak Irish. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that they're telling porkies.

Out on a limb? You would hardly need to go out on a dûidín! Most of them know more Chinese.

downwesht

Ban it or put a meter on it......won't fail!!!!

Geniass

irishlad12345 wrote: »

50-90% of the worlds languages will be extinct by 2100 i fear irish will be one of them

There are Irish kids that are fluent now that will be alive in the year 2100, so it's not possible to be extinct by then (not counting a nuclear holocaust which will likely make all languages extinct).

It's a crap antiquated language mostly supported by posh people and raving loonies from rural Ireland. It will be forever associated in my mind with idiot, backward teachers who were most often violent to cover up their inadequacies.

If this crap dies out I will be very very happy indeed! I went to a Gaelscoil and it's just so old fashioned and ancient (or maybe that was the methods used to teach it I don't know!)

One word sums up the hatred I have for Irish: Peig. It's not a surprise that she was some bogger tart whose thrilling escapades included feeding animals on the farm, marrying an old man or giving birth.

feargale

Edgarfrndly wrote: »

I had a great conversation with Benny the Irish Polyglot about improving the Irish curriculum a year or two ago - and we agreed that there needs to be a huge shift towards spoken Irish, and less focus on syntax and grammar.

Grammar cannot be ignored while it exists and the only effective way to sidestep it is near total immersion. In time much of the grammar will disappear e.g. the noun case changes. It's a universal trend, often obstructed by the purists and didacts.

feargale

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It's a crap antiquated language mostly supported by posh people and raving loonies from rural Ireland.

This is bigotry.

feargale

wendell borton wrote: »

The welsh language is going strong at the moment, couldn't we just copy them.

We could if we had as many speakers. Welsh was always in a stronger position, largely because it was used in the churches and chapels. Also the Welsh language did not engender resentment by being allied to an unenlightened educational system.

feargale

feargale wrote: »

Bigotry.

Experience.

If this sh*t dies out it will be the ultimate revenge for us all on those flatcap-wearing, potato growing culchie retards who revered this poisonous nonsense. If the internet helps it die then I will love the internet even more.

I'll dance a jig if this thing disappears....good riddance.

feargale

feargale wrote: »

Also the Welsh language did not engender resentment by being allied to an unenlightened educational system.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Experience.

If this sh*t dies out it will be the ultimate revenge for us all on those flatcap-wearing, potato growing culchie retards who revered this poisonous nonsense. If the internet helps it die then I will love the internet even more.

I'll dance a jig if this thing disappears....good riddance.

Thank you. You have made my point perfectly clear, namely that some people have been considerably damaged by it,

Dirty Dingus McGee

Deleted User wrote: »

Experience.

If this sh*t dies out it will be the ultimate revenge for us all on those flatcap-wearing, potato growing culchie retards who revered this poisonous nonsense. If the internet helps it die then I will love the internet even more.

I'll dance a jig if this thing disappears....good riddance.

I think what you're spewing is poisonous nonsense not the irish language.

Yeah I suppose...the main problem with me is that every proponent of the Irish language I ever encountered was some kind of evil cowardly savage so it kind of tainted the language's image for me. Anything that is supported by that kind of scum won't be looked on fondly by me.

Reiver

Deleted User wrote: »

Experience.

If this sh*t dies out it will be the ultimate revenge for us all on those flatcap-wearing, potato growing culchie retards who revered this poisonous nonsense. If the internet helps it die then I will love the internet even more.

I'll dance a jig if this thing disappears....good riddance.

I don't think it's Irish you're against. Just rural Ireland. Are you from Dublin by any chance?

Un Croissant

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Experience.

If this sh*t dies out it will be the ultimate revenge for us all on those flatcap-wearing, potato growing culchie retards who revered this poisonous nonsense. If the internet helps it die then I will love the internet even more.

I'll dance a jig if this thing disappears....good riddance.

Jaysus.

Huntergonzo

We all speak English, it's basically our first language at this stage (I consider it my first language anyway) so Irish is inevitably going to suffer when it has no practical benefits. Now I have no problem with people wanting to learn Irish but far too much time is wasted on it in schools, it should be optional only and to be fair learning Spanish, French or German etc will serve you far better.

Mr Rhode Island Red

I think the language's survival simply isn't meant to be.

Think about it. To keep a language alive all you have to do is speak it, and we can't even offer Irish that.

An Ciarraioch

Huntergonzo wrote: »

We all speak English, it's basically our first language at this stage (I consider it my first language anyway) so Irish is inevitably going to suffer when it has no practical benefits. Now I have no problem with people wanting to learn Irish but far too much time is wasted on it in schools, it should be optional only and to be fair learning Spanish, French or German etc will serve you far better.

The logical counter to that is that it doesn't have to be either European languages or Irish - most EU nations teach at least two foreign languages as well as the native tongue, and the UK and Ireland are joint-bottom of a table in terms of languages spoken, so why not try to improve our fluency in both?

Kalman

Spent many wasted[my opinion] school hours on this subject. I had no interest in it then and even less now.

As a second language, a diplomatic language like French, would have been far more beneficial.

onethreefive

I did the leaving cert last year and I've already forgotten most of the Irish I knew for it because it was no use to me at all other than for getting points :P

IrishTrajan

I think we should put more resources into Irish. Look at the Norwegians, or the Israelis. National pride and resources should be enough to bring a language back. I don't speak that much Irish, I actually failed it in my Leaving Cert, but now I'm trying to learn it on my own, and I find it a lot more attractive because I want to learn it. I feel like I have to learn it out of pride.

SEPT 23 1989

Its only on a life support machine and not completly dead today because it became mandatory in the civil service to get the non speaking anglo irish and the british out

Wibbs

IrishTrajan wrote: »

I think we should put more resources into Irish. Look at the Norwegians, or the Israelis.

The Israelis required a lingua franca because of the Jewish diaspora fetching up on their shores. We already have a lingua franca.

IrishTrajan

Huntergonzo wrote: »

We all speak English, it's basically our first language at this stage (I consider it my first language anyway) so Irish is inevitably going to suffer when it has no practical benefits. Now I have no problem with people wanting to learn Irish but far too much time is wasted on it in schools, it should be optional only and to be fair learning Spanish, French or German etc will serve you far better.

English is the lingua franca, but just because it is, doesn't mean we should drop Irish. Many countries learn their native tongue, English, and an additional language. If you're bilingual/multilingual, you'll find it easier to learn another language. Which is why I want my kids, if ever I have any, but in a Gaelscoil and will go to a Gaeltacht every year.

You shouldn't put a price on national pride. There comes a time when the economics of a move simply doesn't account for the symbolism, I don't think we should put a price on learning Irish and say "well we've spent too much now, better just cut our losses".

SEPT 23 1989

IrishTrajan wrote: »

I think we should put more resources into Irish. Look at the Norwegians, or the Israelis. National pride and resources should be enough to bring a language back. I don't speak that much Irish, I actually failed it in my Leaving Cert, but now I'm trying to learn it on my own, and I find it a lot more attractive because I want to learn it. I feel like I have to learn it out of pride.

I sgree its a good specialised hobby people can enjoy in their free time but lets stop wasting millions on it and kids time in school

IrishTrajan

Wibbs wrote: »

The Israelis required a lingua franca because of the Jewish diaspora fetching up on their shores. We already have a lingua franca.

And nobody is suggesting that we'll be speaking it fluently every day, but to revive a language is not impossible. Make it mandatory that all schools speak Irish for one day a week. Even make it enjoyable for kids and make it a no uniform day.

Change things during Seachtain na Gaeilge, where the media has to speak Irish (they can include subtitles for those who can't speak it), or cut our ridiculous welfare budget and allow for a tax credit if you can speak Irish in a relatively fluent manner (you could be tested once every six months, have to have a 30 minute conversation in Irish?).


Bringing back the language isn't impossible, and it shouldn't be left to die.

Un Croissant

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

I sgree its a good specialised hobby people can enjoy in their free time but lets stop wasting millions on it and kids time in school

I think every subject could be described in this way. Why make them do math or French or history of they have no taste for it. The idea that it makes well rounded citizens is rubbish because most drop their crap subjects at the first oppurtunity.

Is it time to get specialised in our education? No compulsory subjects and only three or four subjects taken to exams?

IrishTrajan

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

I sgree its a good specialised hobby people can enjoy in their free time but lets stop wasting millions on it and kids time in school

But it shouldn't be a "hobby", it's our native tongue. We should be trying to bring it back.

We waste billions on welfare and the HSE administration sucks up funds like a black hole, what's a couple million? The cost of learning Irish isn't staggeringly high, is it?

the_monkey

Irish is a dead useless language forced on irish kids by fascists .
Kill it now , it's not used , it's as useful as Klingon or elvish

Un Croissant

the_monkey wrote: »

Irish is a dead useless language forced on irish kids by fascists .
Kill it now , it's not used , it's as useful as Klingon or elvish

Llie n'vanima ar' lle atara lanneina!!

IrishTrajan

the_monkey wrote: »

Irish is a dead useless language forced on irish kids by fascists .
Kill it now , it's not used , it's as useful as Klingon or elvish

It has been argued that Gaeilgeoirí tend to be more highly educated than monolingual English speakers and enjoy the benefits of language-based networking, leading to better employment and higher social status.[9] Though this study has been criticised for certain assumptions,[10] the statistical evidence supports the view that such bilinguals enjoy certain educational advantages.

Constitution:

1. The Irish language as the national language is the first official language.
2. The English language is recognised as a second official language.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_the_Irish_language

Un Croissant

IrishTrajan wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_the_Irish_language

We had avoided being constitutioned for so long

mickstupp

IrishTrajan wrote: »

But it shouldn't be a "hobby", it's our native tongue. We should be trying to bring it back.

It's not the native tongue of anyone I know or ever went to school with. It was the native tongue of one guy I met in university who had some difficulty studying through English, as that was his second language. Came from some island or other.

IrishTrajan

mickstupp wrote: »

It's not the native tongue of anyone I know or ever went to school with. It was the native tongue of one guy I met in university who had some difficulty studying through English, as that was his second language. Came from some island or other.

And that is why we should teach bilingualism rather than monolingualism. How some guy having trouble with English (I presume he was still relatively fluent, yes?) the same as meaning that all Irish speakers will have trouble with English? I know a lot of people who can't speak Irish, and can barely write in English anyway.

Edit:

Does it not annoy you when you're talking to someone from another country and they ask if you can speak Irish? Every time I have to say "no", I get a little disappointed in myself.

LDN_Irish

IrishTrajan wrote: »

But it shouldn't be a "hobby", it's our native tongue. We should be trying to bring it back.

We waste billions on welfare and the HSE administration sucks up funds like a black hole, what's a couple million? The cost of learning Irish isn't staggeringly high, is it?

That's the second time I've noticed you mention welfare on this thread. If you ever lose your job try to pay your groceries with a cupla focail and reevaluate where you'd rather see government funds spent.

Wibbs

IrishTrajan wrote: »

But it shouldn't be a "hobby", it's our native tongue. We should be trying to bring it back.

The fact is Irish is not our native tongue. Hasn't been for quite a while. Even among the most fluent, chances are very high that they have a larger vocabulary in english(unless they're elderly types). I actually met such a man back in the early 80's out west. His english was extremely faltering and limited, It was a foreign tongue for him. I'd be very surprised to find his like today.

Irish started to die when it was no longer the language of business, education and the educated classes. It contracted to a folk language. When was the last time a thesis was presented as Gaelige(and not about the language itself)? It started to lose its sophistication and complexity. Bardic Irish is way more complex.

We waste billions on welfare and the HSE administration sucks up funds like a black hole, what's a couple million? The cost of learning Irish isn't staggeringly high, is it?

It's hard to get concrete estimates on how expensive Irish is to the state, but figures of close to a billion come up regularly enough. How many billions have been spent since the foundation of the state on the language? Billions that might have been better spent elsewhere. How many laws were put in place to increase the usage of the language such as in the public service. Another waste of time. When the public service dropped the mandatory requirement for daily use the usage stopped near overnight and this remember was within a group of people who could speak it.

Maybe if we were still a British colony like Wales their would be more of a nationalistic pride in speaking and promoting it, but we're not and it seems there isn't.

I honestly can't think of another language programme that has been running for so long and at such cost that has failed so dismally and all we have to show for it is a small minority of varying fluency who would likely have spoken it anyway and window dressing with place names and road signs and gov documents in two languages.

Imagine in another reality visiting say Madrid and finding all the signs are bilingual, in Spanish and Basque and that Basque is considered the native and first language. That all kids must learn Basque all through their schooling and that many government jobs require it etc. And then finding when you walk the streets you don't hear a word of it spoken and if you had learned it, you'd be utterly boned when dealing with 90% of the population you grid to talk with. You would rightly think WTF? Indeed on my couple of forays into the Basque regions of Spain, I heard Basque being spoken as a living breathing language far more than I have heard in all my years traveling around Ireland.

Wibbs

IrishTrajan wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_the_Irish_language

Constitution:

1. The Irish language as the national language is the first official language.
2. The English language is recognised as a second official language.

Clearly paper won't refuse ink, but it's utterly daft to think that even begins to reflect reality. Though this is a common response of your Irish supporter. It's in the constitution, therefore… Therefore what. God is all over the constitution and these days not so much among Irish people.

briany

IrishTrajan wrote: »

Does it not annoy you when you're talking to someone from another country and they ask if you can speak Irish? Every time I have to say "no", I get a little disappointed in myself.

Does this happen much? People asking? How does it come up in conversation? What's their reaction?

Shep_Dog

IrishTrajan wrote: »

But it shouldn't be a "hobby", it's our native tongue. We should be trying to bring it back.

For almost everyone in Ireland it's not their native tongue. It's a language obligation imposed on them because decades ago some fanatics gave it a status of 'National Language' in the constitution.

'Bringing back Irish' is a crazy, isolationist notion.

Ficheall

I find that over here in the UK, many people are surprised to learn that there is an Irish language.

Shep_Dog

IrishTrajan wrote: »

Does it not annoy you when you're talking to someone from another country and they ask if you can speak Irish? Every time I have to say "no", I get a little disappointed in myself.

No, I simply explain that it's not my native language, but that it is spoken by enthusiasts and by families in a few remote villages.

IrishTrajan

Wibbs wrote: »

Clearly paper won't refuse ink, but it's utterly daft to think that even begins to reflect reality. Though this is a common response of your Irish supporter. It's in the constitution, therefore… Therefore what. God is all over the constitution and these days not so much among Irish people.

Therefore it, by law, is our mother tongue. English is, by and large, the de facto tongue but Irish has legal standing to be our first tongue.

briany wrote: »

Does this happen much? People asking? How does it come up in conversation? What's their reaction?

I regularly speak to foreign people, most of them know we speak English but are surprised as to why we don't speak Irish. Usually it's just met with a "oh" but I always feel disappointed.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

briany wrote: »

Does this happen much? People asking? How does it come up in conversation? What's their reaction?

Actually, yes, it does. But no - it doesn;t embarrass me. The majority of Englsh-native speakers come from a country which English isn't the traditional historical langauge. No idea what drives people to ask, and their reactions seems to be that it makes sense.

I was in Wales two weeks ago and I asked a few people if they spoke Welsh. Same story.

Huntergonzo

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

The logical counter to that is that it doesn't have to be either European languages or Irish - most EU nations teach at least two foreign languages as well as the native tongue, and the UK and Ireland are joint-bottom of a table in terms of languages spoken, so why not try to improve our fluency in both?

Hey have at it, people should be able to learn whatever language they want once it's optional, Irish should be no different.