The Irish language is failing.

Ave Sodalis

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I know it has zero practical value as there are fully zero instances that aren't artificially manufactured by the state when aptitude in Irish is of any benefit.
So your position is that knowing how to speak Irish is more important and practical than knowing anything about Ireland... where everybody speaks English anyway?

What are you talking about?

Okay well I'm out because I've 3 posts on it and they've already been twisted beyond resemblence with a sneery attitude.

DyldeBrill

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Why would your French be better if you did two hours of French instead of and hour of French and an hour of Irish? Is that a real question?

Yes believe it or not it is a real question..bravo sir. Beat around the bush all you want but having learnt Irish didn't effect my teaching of French. I don't see what your getting at here? You could say that about any subject so don't use Irish as an excuse here.

mickydoomsux

DyldeBrill wrote: »

What makes it irrelevant?

The fact that next to no one uses it and it is no ones first language.

It's like someone going to learn computer programming and only being taught useless, redundant programming languages.

I refuse to do the dead parrot sketch with someone who has been indoctrinated into the mindset that Irish is actually a thing that matters by people who benefit from the entire farce being propped up.

It's done, it's dead. Stop wasting time and resources with it.

Dan_Solo

sup_dude wrote: »

What are you talking about?

Okay well I'm out because I've 3 posts on it and they've already been twisted beyond resemblence with a sneery attitude.

You said Irish has practical uses whereas History doesn't.
You provided a total of no examples.
You then turned tail.

DyldeBrill

mickydoomsux wrote: »

The fact that next to no one uses it and it is no ones first language.

It's like someone going to learn computer programming and only being taught useless, redundant programming languages.

I refuse to do the dead parrot sketch with someone who has been indoctrinated into the mindset that Irish is actually a thing that matters by people who benefit from the entire farce being propped up.

It's done, it's dead. Stop wasting time and resources with it.

No it's not how can you compare a language to IT programming? Ridiculous comparison and it is people's first language believe it or not. Maybe not the majority of our population but it simply is. So you're completely wrong there.

Hold on...why are we going into resources and so on here...I simply stated that people use the language and enjoy doing so. Is that a crime? Stick to the issue in hand and stop babbling on about something you don't fully understand.

I wouldn't mind but your arguments are built on nothing but your own ignorance. You have your opinion I have mine. G'luck

Dan_Solo

DyldeBrill wrote: »

Yes believe it or not it is a real question..bravo sir. Beat around the bush all you want but having learnt Irish didn't effect my teaching of French. I don't see what your getting at here? You could say that about any subject so don't use Irish as an excuse here.

Hard luck, but I can ONLY say that about Irish as Irish is the ONLY subject most people take (because they have to) that is guaranteed 100% useless.
So yes, if you didn't have to do Irish you could have been better at some other subject instead.

briany

mickydoomsux wrote: »

The fact that next to no one uses it and it is no ones first language.

It's like someone going to learn computer programming and only being taught useless, redundant programming languages.

Ríomhaire gan WhiteSpace, Ríomhaire gan anam.

Dan_Solo

DyldeBrill wrote: »

Ridiculous comparison and it is people's first language believe it or not.

Pretty ridiculous bringing that up TBH when there's more native habitual Polish and Chinese speakers here.
They should be compulsory then to leaving cert level, yeah?

mickydoomsux

DyldeBrill wrote: »

No it's not how can you compare a language to IT programming? Ridiculous comparison and it is people's first language believe it or not. Maybe not the majority of our population but it simply is. So you're completely wrong there.

Hold on...why are we going into resources and so on here...I simply stated that people use the language and enjoy doing so. Is that a crime? Stick to the issue in hand and stop babbling on about something you don't fully understand.

I wouldn't mind but your arguments are built on nothing but your own ignorance. You have your opinion I have mine. G'luck

We may as well be teaching chocolate teapot making as teaching Irish.

An utter waste of time and resources in schools. You'd be better off teaching students how to boil an egg.

It's comparable to useless programming languages because it is as dead and redundant as they are.

Every governemt that continues to perpetuate the farce of mandatory Irish in schools should be ashamed.

DyldeBrill

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Hard luck, but I can ONLY say that about Irish as Irish is the ONLY subject most people take (because they have to) that is guaranteed 100% useless.
So yes, if you didn't have to do Irish you could have been better at some other subject instead.

whaaaaat?

What you fail to understand is that it helped me in this sense...I'm not talking on behalf of everyone else, and for the record I don't think Irish should be compulsory, but I really can't see what your getting at. Tell me what I would have been better at since you know the ins and outs of it all?

Its useles? Ok that's your opinion, I'm here arguing saying its not because I use it, I know many others who use it therefore it musn't be useless like you say it is.

DyldeBrill

mickydoomsux wrote: »

We may as well be teaching chocolate teapot making as teaching Irish.

An utter waste of time and resources in schools. You'd be better off teaching students how to boil an egg.

It's comparable to useless programming languages because it is as dead and redundant as they are.

Every governemt that continues to perpetuate the farce of mandatory Irish in schools should be ashamed.

Ooooook, like i've already stated, I have my opinion.... you have yours. I'll continue to carry on speaking Irish either way hopefully I won't find a pick axe in my back for wanting to do so.

Dan_Solo

DyldeBrill wrote: »

Ooooook, like i've already stated, I have my opinion.... you have yours. I'll continue to carry on speaking Irish either way hopefully I won't find a pick axe in my back for wanting to do so.

Nobody cares whether you want to or not.
What they care about is the state wasting resources and everybody's time forcing them to learn an utterly useless language.
See the difference?

mickydoomsux

DyldeBrill wrote: »

Ooooook, like i've already stated, I have my opinion.... you have yours. I'll continue to carry on speaking Irish either way hopefully I won't find a pick axe in my back for wanting to do so.

It's not a matter of opinion.

The Irish language is demonstrably a corpse and yet we force 100% of students to do it for the Leaving because of a few arsehole loudmouth Gaeligors

****ing madness. Let the useless thing rightfully die and we take a step closer to a proper education system with all the useless dead wood cut away.

Dan_Solo

mickydoomsux wrote: »

****ing madness. Let the useless thing rightfully die and we take a step closer to a proper education system with all the useless dead wood cut away.

TBH, I don't actually want Irish to die.
It just happens to be the general consensus since nobody appears to want to speak it. And that's democracy folks!

DyldeBrill

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Nobody cares whether you want to or not.
What they care about is the state wasting resources and everybody's time forcing them to learn an utterly useless language.
See the difference?

You skip past most of my argument and come back to say this. Do speak on behalf of everyone else? I'm simply speaking on behalf of myself and don't expect everyone to agree. Your not dealing with the matter in hand its that simple. I'm merely stating that its not a useless language and used by many. For you to suggest otherwise is incorrect. How am I wasting resources by speaking Irish to others who want to speak Irish. I'm not wasting any resources in doing so am I? Your argument is completely invalid by not dealing witht he issue in hand.

I say I speak Irish and then you get flustered because I do so. Whatever!

DyldeBrill

Dan_Solo wrote: »

TBH, I don't actually want Irish to die.
It just happens to be the general consensus since nobody appears to want to speak it. And that's democracy folks!

What are your reasons then for not wanting it to die out of interest?

Filmer Paradise

DyldeBrill wrote: »

No it's not how can you compare a language to IT programming? Ridiculous comparison and it is people's first language believe it or not. Maybe not the majority of our population but it simply is. So you're completely wrong there.

Hold on...why are we going into resources and so on here...I simply stated that people use the language and enjoy doing so. Is that a crime? Stick to the issue in hand and stop babbling on about something you don't fully understand.

I wouldn't mind but your arguments are built on nothing but your own ignorance. You have your opinion I have mine. G'luck

No crime at all.

Here's the thing though. As a hard working taxpayer, I know a lot of the money I pay goes on a hobby-horse for other people.

I've got no interest in GAA games either, but in fairness to them, they don't tend to tap me for money at every turn. They don't force my kids to play in their games. We don't participate, we don't pay.

All grand.

However the language hawks have a huge sense of entitlement & expect everyone to bankroll their plaything, regardless of the cost or inconveniance to everybody else.

Thatis the problem a lot of people have with this issue. Keep a few people in some sort of euphoric illusion at the rest of our time effort & expense.

Remove the state subsidies, grants, handy jobs to be got & so on. How many of them would defend it then I wonder?

DyldeBrill

Filmer Paradise wrote: »

No crime at all.

Here's the thing though. As a hard working taxpayer, I know a lot of the money I pay goes on a hobby-horse for other people.

I've got no interest in GAA games either, but in fairness to them, they don't tend to tap me for money at every turn. They don't force my kids to play in their games. We don't participate, we don't pay.

All grand.

However the language hawks have a huge sense of entitlement & expect everyone to bankroll their plaything, regardless of the cost or inconveniance to everybody else.

Thatis the problem a lot of people have with this issue. Keep a few people in some sort of euphoric illusion at the rest of our time effort & expense.

Remove the state subsidies, grants, handy jobs to be got & so on. How many of them would defend it then I wonder?

I agree with you to a point. There are people out there that live off grants and do far too well for themselves off other people's hard earned cash and that's completely wrong, but that's a minority within a minority I feel. Something is simply going to have to change one way or another in relation to the point that you've raised. As far as people defending the language, of course there will be still people defending the language and those people will be defending it simply because they speak it and enjoy doing so, not off sitting on their hole waiting for a grant to come in. You can't tar all Irish speakers with the same brush in saying that we're simply standing there with our hands open but your right in saying that there are people who do.

Dan_Solo

DyldeBrill wrote: »

You skip past most of my argument and come back to say this. Do speak on behalf of everyone else? I'm simply speaking on behalf of myself and don't expect everyone to agree. Your not dealing with the matter in hand its that simple. I'm merely stating that its not a useless language and used by many. For you to suggest otherwise is incorrect. How am I wasting resources by speaking Irish to others who want to speak Irish. I'm not wasting any resources in doing so am I? Your argument is completely invalid by not dealing witht he issue in hand.

I say I speak Irish and then you get flustered because I do so. Whatever!

Flustered? Where the hell did you make up that from?
I specifically said I don't care if you want to speak Irish. Is "don't care" the same as "flustered"?
"Many"? Less than regularly speak Polish and Chinese? What does "many" mean here? It's a fudge word much beloved of ad campaigns.
Did I say YOU wasted resources? Nope. The state has wasted ITS (and by result my) resources teaching and supporting a language that nobody needs and 1 in 1000 people speak regularly.

Dan_Solo

DyldeBrill wrote: »

What are your reasons then for not wanting it to die out of interest?

Well it's more of an indifference TBH. I just don't want it to die, I've no reason to hate a language that people want to use in their own time to no detriment to general society.
Which unfortunately is what Irish is right now, but I don't blame Irish or even the fact that people want to speak Irish for that.

Filmer Paradise

DyldeBrill wrote: »

I agree with you to a point. There are people out there that live off grants and do far too well for themselves off other people's hard earned cash and that's completely wrong, but that's a minority within a minority I feel. Something is simply going to have to change one way or another in relation to the point that you've raised. As far as people defending the language, of course there will be still people defending the language and those people will be defending it simply because they speak it and enjoy doing so, not off sitting on their hole waiting for a grant to come in. You can't tar all Irish speakers with the same brush in saying that we're simply standing there with our hands open but your right in saying that there are people who do.

Y'see the problem & I'll give you that much, but a lot of the people who defend the Irish language have a vested interest & their sense of entitlement is well established & totally ingrained.

That's the main problem with a lot of people.

I made the point about the GAA earlier. GAA games are now bigger than they ever were. Fair play to them, I say.

Irish music, the same.

All good news.

The Irish language has been a victim of a lot of it's supporters IMO. Since the foundation of the State,they got their oar in & have been rowing the boat for all it's worth ever since.

In fairness they got an awful lot of mileage out of it. Far more than they deserved, given the results.

For most people from an early age, it's been a problem, something to be endured. A bit like that Uncle who'd arrive drunk at a family wedding & make things a misery for everybody else.

DyldeBrill

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Flustered? Where the hell did you make up that from?
I specifically said I don't care if you want to speak Irish. Is "don't care" the same as "flustered"?
"Many"? Less than regularly speak Polish and Chinese? What does "many" mean here? It's a fudge word much beloved of ad campaigns.
Did I say YOU wasted resources? Nope. The state has wasted ITS (and by result my) resources teaching and supporting a language that nobody needs and 1 in 1000 people speak regularly.

Flustered in the sense that you've got so worked up over me speaking the language. Do I have to define the word many now? Are we getting to the point where we are defining the literal sense of a word? Many as in MANY. Of course there are more people who speak Polish and Chinese..I never disputed that.

That's fine, we've established that you don't need nor want to learn the Irish language, yet you don't want to see a 'useless' language die? Can't quite get my head around that point.

Dan_Solo

DyldeBrill wrote: »

Flustered in the sense that you've got so worked up over me speaking the language. Do I have to define the word many now?.

I've have repeatedly and specifically stated I DON'T CARE if you speak Irish. It is none of my concern whatsoever. How is "don't care" the same as "flustered"?
While you're at your dictionary, yeah, do give me a definition of "many" that serves any useful purpose in this discussion.
Here's your "many" in graphical terms:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_the_Irish_language#/media/File:Percentage_stating_they_speak_Irish_daily_outside_the_education_system_in_the_2011_census.png

DyldeBrill

Filmer Paradise wrote: »

Y'see the problem & I'll give you that much, but a lot of the people who defend the Irish language have a vested interest & their sense of entitlement is well established & totally ingrained.

That's the main problem with a lot of people.

I made the point about the GAA earlier. GAA games are now bigger than they ever were. Fair play to them, I say.

Irish music, the same.

All good news.

The Irish language has been a victim of a lot of it's supporters IMO. Since the foundation of the State,they got their oar in & have been rowing the boat for all it's worth ever since.

In fairness they got an awful lot of mileage out of it. Far more than they deserved, given the results.

For most people from an early age, it's been a problem, something to be endured. A bit like that Uncle who'd arrive drunk at a family wedding & make things a misery for everybody else.

Listen..this argument could go on and on and I will say that there are a minority of Irish speakers who don't do the language any good. I'm merely speaking from what I know, and by no means am I coming on here and saying I know everything, because everyone has different experiences in relation to the the Irish language, be it positive or negative.

My point is that it is 100% used and is 100% useful.Maybe not to all but there are enough people there who regularly speak it. I'm not defending the dreadful decisions of our government, especially when it comes to funding and how they've dealt with Irish in schools. I'm confident the language will not die out, but for that to happen there needs to be radical changes. We need to rid of the negative stigma that surrounds it and change tact in how its taught in schools. If you force anyone to do something they don't want to do then they're never going to enjoy it. Unfortunately our government don't get that.

Dan_Solo

DyldeBrill wrote: »

My point is that it is 100% used and is 100% useful.Maybe not to all but there are enough people there who regularly speak it.

Less than 1% of the population with daily usage.
So tell me, should Chinese and Polish be mandatory until Leaving Cert as they are apparently more useful than Irish is?

Filmer Paradise

DyldeBrill wrote: »

Listen..this argument could go on and on and I will say that there are a minority of Irish speakers who don't do the language any good. I'm merely speaking from what I know, and by no means am I coming on here and saying I know everything, because everyone has different experiences in relation to the the Irish language, be it positive or negative.

My point is that it is 100% used and is 100% useful.Maybe not to all but there are enough people there who regularly speak it. I'm not defending the dreadful decisions of our government, especially when it comes to funding and how they've dealt with Irish in schools. I'm confident the language will not die out, but for that to happen there needs to be radical changes. We need to rid of the negative stigma that surrounds it and change tact in how its taught in schools. If you force anyone to do something they don't want to do then they're never going to enjoy it. Unfortunately our government don't get that.

Fair enough.

Would you be willing to let the teaching of the Irish language to be optional in every school across the land?

FunLover18

Dughorm wrote:

Have you a positive attitude towards Shakespeare or Calculus? Would you prefer that schools provide people a choice to learn it?

The position of English and Maths has absolutely zero to do with the survival/decline of Irish. You can argue for compulsory Irish on its own merits or you can play whataboutery.

Seriously, do most pro compulsory Irishers just put up with "compulsory" Maths and English just so they can use them as a flimsy defence when people suggest making Irish optional.

This thread is specifically about what can be done about the Irish language and it's place in society, and the position of maths and English has no bearing on that.

DyldeBrill

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I've have repeatedly and specifically stated I DON'T CARE if you speak Irish. It is none of my concern whatsoever. How is "don't care" the same as "flustered"?
While you're at your dictionary, yeah, do give me a definition of "many" that serves any useful purpose in this discussion.
Here's your "many" in graphical terms:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_the_Irish_language#/media/File:Percentage_stating_they_speak_Irish_daily_outside_the_education_system_in_the_2011_census.png

I'm still confused as what you are trying to point out. You obviously DO CARE hence why we are having this debate. Your honestly giving me that wiki link to back whatever it is your trying to say.

What is it that you have trouble understanding...seems to me that its the word 'Many' that's throwing you off. Lets say we do go with this amazing in depth analysis that you've so kindly posted. 40,000-80,000 native Irish speakers it states. It clearly shows that it's a minority who speak the language, which it is. If it's lets say 80,000 that speak the language , it still means that many people still speak it so stop getting so hung up and nitpicking over wording.

Dan_Solo

DyldeBrill wrote: »

I'm still confused as what you are trying to point out. You obviously DO CARE hence why we are having this debate. Your honestly giving me that wiki link to back whatever it is your trying to say.

I care about the state wasting money and schoolkids' time on Irish. I do not care if you speak Irish.
These are very simple separate issues. Please stop conflating them to you can fabricate some story about me caring whether you speak Irish or not.

DyldeBrill wrote: »

What is it that you have trouble understanding...seems to me that its the word 'Many' that's throwing you off. Lets say we do go with this amazing in depth analysis that you've so kindly posted. 40,000-80,000 native Irish speakers it states. It clearly shows that it's a minority who speak the language, which it is. If it's lets say 80,000 that speak the language , it still means that many people still speak it so stop getting so hung up and nitpicking over wording.

Same question then, still unanswered: do you think Polish and Chinese should be compulsory to LC level?

DyldeBrill

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Less than 1% of the population with daily usage.
So tell me, should Chinese and Polish be mandatory until Leaving Cert as they are apparently more useful than Irish is?

What in gods name are you on about? No they shouldn't to answer your question...struggling to see your point here yet again.

Where are you getting your figures btw? Off the ever reliable Wikipedia?

Dan_Solo

DyldeBrill wrote: »

What in gods name are you on about? No they shouldn't to answer your question...struggling to see your point here yet again.

Where are you getting your figures btw? Off the ever reliable Wikipedia?

Here's where you supply your own superior figures that will trump Wikipedia's referenced data...
Or, of course, you could just say "waah, I don't like that number!".

DyldeBrill

Filmer Paradise wrote: »

Fair enough.

Would you be willing to let the teaching of the Irish language to be optional in every school across the land?

In every secondary school across the land, yes. The way its been taught through the years has absolutely ruined the language for so many people, so much so that people hold a grudge against it. People should have the choice whether they want to learn the language or not, so leave it in their hands to determine the success of the language. If people want the speak it, then they will.

Filmer Paradise

DyldeBrill wrote: »

In every secondary school across the land, yes. The way its been taught through the years has absolutely ruined the language for so many people, so much so that people hold a grudge against it. People should have the choice whether they want to learn the language or not, so leave it in their hands to determine the success of the language. If people want the speak it, then they will.

Cool. Yere not such a bad fellah. (for a galegoer of course).:D

Why not for Primary school too?

DyldeBrill

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Here's where you supply your own superior figures that will trump Wikipedia's referenced data...
Or, of course, you could just say "waah, I don't like that number!".

When did I state that I didn't like the number? I just find it laughable that you're going to wiki to seek figures and stats and coming back here and arguing about other issues and going off topic. Your even getting a bit confused of the use of the word 'many' for crying out loud.


You are the one that is bringing up issues that I simply never raised. You're constructing arguments that have no relevance to what I'm saying AT ALL, so much so that its become laughable. You keep bringing up Polish and Chinese...I take it you speak them at a high level? Or did Irish deter you from reaching your dream of one day being able to speak these languages? Of course they are useful languages. Is that what you want to hear? If so then great, maybe I can stop wasting my time with you then.

And to answer your question no they shouldn't be compulsory...why should they be?

DyldeBrill

Filmer Paradise wrote: »

Cool. Yere not such a bad fellah. (for a galegoer of course).:D

Why not for Primary school too?

haha don't speak too soon!

Now I'm sure I'll get slated for this but personally I think that the Irish language does deserve a place in primary schools as part of a foundation to learn the language. Irish as well as other languages should be taught in primary schools. It has to be there to give someone the chance to say whether they like or dislike it. Gaeilge is part of our history, whether people like it or not, therefore it deserves to be highlighted. It should be taught to students as part of our history and it is up to them to carry on from that in whether or not they want to carry on speaking it intead of them being forced to do so like they are now at secondary level.

Filmer Paradise

DyldeBrill wrote: »

haha don't speak too soon!

Now I'm sure I'll get slated for this but personally I think that the Irish language does deserve a place in primary schools as part of a foundation to learn the language. Irish as well as other languages should be taught in primary schools. It has to be there to give someone the chance to say whether they like or dislike it. Gaeilge is part of our history, whether people like it or not, therefore it deserves to be highlighted. It should be taught to students as part of our history and it is up to them to carry on from that in whether or not they want to carry on speaking it intead of them being forced to do so like they are now at secondary level.

Good. But wouldn't the time spent on Irish be better spent on basic Science or PE?

Just like it was back in the day?

No other languages are thought in Irish primary schools as far as I'm aware.

Could we not have an option to teach French, or German to them instead of Irish?

It might give the kids (mine included) a better start in life.

Just saying.

DyldeBrill

Filmer Paradise wrote: »

Good. But wouldn't the time spent on Irish be better spent on basic Science or PE?

Just like it was back in the day?

No other languages are thought in Irish primary schools as far as I'm aware.

Could we not have an option to teach French, or German to them instead of Irish?

It might give the kids (mine included) a better start in life.

Just saying.

As I said its a personal opinion of mine. An opinion that some will think is biased, but if we are to make a use of it why not start at primary level and see if can excel from there, or do you think that the Irish language should be stopped plain and simple and never to be heard of again? If so then that's your opinion and your entitled to that. If Irish can be taught in the same fun way that they do in the hugely successful Gaeltacht courses then it might stand a chance.

Science and PE are always taught in schools. I don;t see how children would lose out as they are learning basic science to begin with. It is in secondary school where they progress. As for PE...well PE is everywhere. From GAA, to soccer to whatever other sport you can name be sure that plenty of exercise is installed in the curriculum.

French was taught to me in my primary school anyway but I guess that depends on the school. I think language classes would prove beneficial in primary school and more emphasis should be put on this and I'm not only taking about Irish. Its all a matter of opinion at the end of the day.

Filmer Paradise

Filmer Paradise wrote: »

Cool. Yere not such a bad fellah. (for a galegoer of course).:D

Why not for Primary school too?

Why should we make policy based on the fact that some people who are no good at Irish want to prevent other people from learning it?

TheLastMohican

TÁ. Just like the Latin of old. Could not sustain itself.

Filmer Paradise

DyldeBrill wrote: »

As I said its a personal opinion of mine. An opinion that some will think is biased, but if we are to make a use of it why not start at primary level and see if can excel from there, or do you think that the Irish language should be stopped plain and simple and never to be heard of again? If so then that's your opinion and your entitled to that. If Irish can be taught in the same fun way that they do in the hugely successful Gaeltacht courses then it might stand a chance.

Science and PE are always taught in schools. I don;t see how children would lose out as they are learning basic science to begin with. It is in secondary school where they progress. As for PE...well PE is everywhere. From GAA, to soccer to whatever other sport you can name be sure that plenty of exercise is installed in the curriculum.

French was taught to me in my primary school anyway but I guess that depends on the school. I think language classes would prove beneficial in primary school and more emphasis should be put on this and I'm not only taking about Irish. Its all a matter of opinion at the end of the day.

Okay & all very well.

But for the massive & I mean truly massive investment into this...

Is it worth it? Really is it?

I can't see anything to be gained.

Let's be honest. The language is gone too far to be revived as a serious going concern now.

What I say is that anybody who wants to continue with this, let them pay for it. If it's such a wonderful thing it'll pay for itself. Just like the GAA.

The thing is, is that everyone who supports the language knows deep down that the jig is well & truly up at this stage.

But they have their hooks in so well that they can dress up the whole issue & use it as a political football. Wrap themselves in the flag of patriotism & all that.

Nothing further from the truth IMO. They want the gravy train to continue, just like it has for the past 90 years & fook everyone else.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Filmer Paradise wrote: »

Okay & all very well.

But for the massive & I mean truly massive investment into this...

Is it worth it? Really is it?

I can't see anything to be gained.

Let's be honest. The language is gone too far to be revived as a serious going concern now.

What I say is that anybody who wants to continue with this, let them pay for it. If it's such a wonderful thing it'll pay for itself. Just like the GAA.

The thing is, is that everyone who supports the language knows deep down that the jig is well & truly up at this stage.

But they have their hooks in so well that they can dress up the whole issue & use it as a political football. Wrap themselves in the flag of patriotism & all that.

Nothing further from the truth IMO. They want the gravy train to continue, just like it has for the past 90 years & fook everyone else.

Its not the amount invested that annoys me, it's the complete lack of any meaningful return from that investment. In fact, it's not the lack of return its the fact that, for some reason even beyond their own comprehedning, it's the fact that the pro-Irish brigade (and by that, I mean the ones that genuinely want to see the langauge florish, not the ones who are benefiting financially from it) see absolutely no problem in this scenario continuing.

Dan_Solo

DyldeBrill wrote: »

When did I state that I didn't like the number? I just find it laughable that you're going to wiki to seek figures and stats and coming back here and arguing about other issues and going off topic. Your even getting a bit confused of the use of the word 'many' for crying out loud.

Where am I confused? You have never once stated what your "many" actually means. Why not just give us a number? Any chance it's because "under 1% use Irish even once a day" is pretty pathetic? Or do you only deal in vague wishy washy fews and manys?

DyldeBrill wrote: »

You are the one that is bringing up issues that I simply never raised. You're constructing arguments that have no relevance to what I'm saying AT ALL, so much so that its become laughable. You keep bringing up Polish and Chinese...I take it you speak them at a high level?

Lack of self awareness alert captain!
You're whining about strawmanning and then assuming I speak fluent Polish... which wouldn't make a blind bit of difference to the point I made either way.
Anecdotes are entertaining. Data is relevant. Repeat until understood.

Carlos Orange

Deleted User wrote: »

Why should we make policy based on the fact that some people who are no good at Irish want to prevent other people from learning it?

Are you equating making Irish optional with stopping people who want to learn Irish learn Irish? I skipped a good bit of this conversation but I'm pretty confident no one advocated banning learning Irish.

Dan_Solo

psinno wrote: »

Are you equating making Irish optional with stopping people who want to learn Irish learn Irish? I skipped a good bit of this conversation but I'm pretty confident no one advocated banning learning Irish.

It's a central tenet of the pro-Irish brigade playbook. If you want Irish to be optional you must "hate" Irish. Not hate that it's compulsory, oh no, you hate Irish itself you traitorous dog...

Dughorm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

It's a central tenet of the pro-Irish brigade playbook. If you want Irish to be optional you must "hate" Irish. Not hate that it's compulsory, oh no, you hate Irish itself you traitorous dog...

In fact many people here don't think that Shakespeare or maths should be compulsory either and that's cool.

Saying you don't want any compulsory subjects is grand but to single out Irish and not Shakespeare I think is unreasonable.

recipio

Its remarkable, that despite a groundswell of opinion against compulsory Irish the policy remains entrenched in the ruling classes of this State.As usual, when political parties consider change the first question is 'what's in it for them'

the_syco

mikeym wrote: »

What does the minister of the gealteacht think....

Oh wait he dont speak Irish too well.

He speaks it better than most of the Irish people, and has a reason to learn it.

Thes rest of us learn it briefly whilst at school, but forget it shortly afterwards as it's of no use.

recipio

recipio wrote: »

Its remarkable, that despite a groundswell of opinion against compulsory Irish the policy remains entrenched in the ruling classes of this State.As usual, when political parties consider change the first question is 'what's in it for them'

Where? From the same posters on this website, often using several nicks in the one discussion to express their pathological hatred for the defining mark of any distinctive culture, its language?

I really would welcome if one of the Irish haters - and, as shown, a bit of digging reveals that the person who starts with "I don't hate Irish but..." usually is on record as wishing for its death or engaging in pseudo-racist attacks against people who are culturally Irish - could stand for election specifically on an anti-Irish platform. Meanwhile, last week the ESRI issued a study which said this:

"While the attitudes towards the Irish language among primary and post-primary students in the Republic of Ireland are often negative, the report finds considerable support for the language among adult population - 67 per cent of the respondents in the Republic of Ireland and 45 per cent from Northern Ireland felt positive about the Irish language."

The "groundswell of opinion" is, if anything, against the Irish haters - every one of whom, in my experience, are to the far right of the political spectrum on every issue and especially on issues relating to the people who fought for Irish independence and the legitimacy of Irish independence itself (and who usually self-describe as "Libertarian" or some other nutcase neo-fascist ideology beloved of the immature and sociopathic).

Wacker The Attacker

My sister has 3 year old twins. She lived in Madrid before she got married and is a fluent Spanish speaker. Her husband lived in Rome for several years too. He's a fluent Italian speaker. They'll learn both of these languages at home and will have learned significant amounts of Italian and Spanish by time they are 6 or 7. They'll have done their leaving cert and still wont be fluent in irish.

These languages will be infinitely more beneficial to them as they grow up and will open more doors for them than the Irish language ever will and they have the luxury of a significant head start.

Companies in Ireland are screaming out for people who can speak foreign languages. Spanish, French and Chinese and some clear examples.

Because of this I have no idea why the education system doesn't focus on what's necessary rather than keeping a failed and dead language on life support.

DEFTLEFTHAND

What are some good swear phrases? I think cac is sh1t but how would you say fcuk off or go fcuk yourself in Irish?