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The Irish language is failing.

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Comments

  • #1602
    Shep_Dog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 499 ✭✭Shep_Dog


    Dughorm wrote: »
    Was learning Shakespeare an oppressive act for you or just part of a decent education? Have you used it since school or are you still rebelling against it?
    Perhaps the reason for the decline in the use of Irish is that the promoters of Irish cannot focus objectively on the issues that brought this about?


  • #1603
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dughorm wrote: »
    But using your logic, surely I don't need to study Shakespeare to use the English that's been around since Shakespeare's time!
    Even if it was only 1% as useful as learning only modern English, it'd still be useful where learning Irish such as hell isn't.


  • #1604
    Shep_Dog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 499 ✭✭Shep_Dog


    Dughorm wrote: »
    What? Not in the slightest - Irish culture is omnipresent! Music, Film, Literature, Language, Sport, Drama, History, Dance, Humour.... celebrated by world every year!!
    All of which employ the English language.


  • #1605
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dughorm wrote: »
    I genuinely find that hard to believe... depends what you mean by "useful" of course.
    Useful as in "of use". So you agree that Chinese and Polish are more useful than Irish as more people speak them? And you therefore support those being mandatory for the leaving cert ahead of Irish also?


  • #1606
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dughorm wrote: »
    What? Not in the slightest - Irish culture is omnipresent! Music, Film, Literature, Language, Sport, Drama, History, Dance, Humour.... celebrated by world every year!!
    Care to look up "omnipresent" in a dictionary and get back to us there boss?
    While you're at it, have a look at your TV schedules, local bookstore and what's on in the cinema and you'll see just how "omnipresent" Irish culture is.


  • #1607
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Deranged96 wrote: »
    I think its time that we allow the Irish language, our most important link to our heritage, a chance. With a competent minister at the helm, good will, prudent expenditure and a good plan, there is no ceiling :)
    Except for the small ceiling of nobody wanting to speak Irish as adults because they neither want to nor have to.


  • #1608
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Shep_Dog wrote: »
    Perhaps the reason for the decline in the use of Irish is that the promoters of Irish cannot focus objectively on the issues that brought this about?

    I'm not sure what you're referring to but given you consider that children learning Irish in school at present is "forcing them to speak a language which is not theirs", your posts would hardly be a standard for objectivity!


  • #1609
    Deranged96
    Registered Users Posts: 588 ✭✭✭Deranged96


    Dughorm wrote: »
    What? Not in the slightest - Irish culture is omnipresent! Music, Film, Literature, Language, Sport, Drama, History, Dance, Humour.... celebrated by world every year!!

    Bar sport you have to seek out all of the above to come across it.
    I honestly think 90% of the country thinks that we're celebrating the centenary of the state next year.. which shows that past rebel names most Irish people are apathetic towards their history.

    Which is why we should mind and nurture Irish!


  • #1610
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dughorm wrote: »
    I'm not sure what you're referring to but given you consider that children learning Irish in school at present is "forcing them to speak a language which is not theirs", your posts would hardly be a standard for objectivity!
    You're wrong because you are wrong is quite literally what this response boils down to.
    As cultural English speakers, Irish most certainly is not the average Irish person's language. Polish and Chinese have a better claim to that of course, which you'd prefer not to recognise I'm sure.


  • #1611
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Shep_Dog wrote: »
    All of which employ the English language.

    And the Irish language - so why not learn both!


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  • #1612
    Deranged96
    Registered Users Posts: 588 ✭✭✭Deranged96


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    You're wrong because you are wrong is quite literally what this response boils down to.
    As cultural English speakers, Irish most certainly is not the average Irish person's language. Polish and Chinese have a better claim to that of course, which you'd prefer not to recognise I'm sure.

    :confused: Justify?


  • #1613
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Useful as in "of use". So you agree that Chinese and Polish are more useful than Irish as more people speak them? And you therefore support those being mandatory for the leaving cert ahead of Irish also?

    Nice try - questioning you on your stance is not the same as me accepting it. Do you want me to refer you the posts where I explained my philosophy of education?


  • #1614
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Deranged96 wrote: »
    Bar sport you have to seek out all of the above to come across it.
    I honestly think 90% of the country thinks that we're celebrating the centenary of the state next year.. which shows that past rebel names most Irish people are apathetic towards their history.
    <SOMETHING NEEDS TO GO HERE>
    Which is why we should mind and nurture Irish!
    Just FYI.


  • #1615
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Deranged96 wrote: »
    :confused: Justify?
    More Irish people speak Chinese and Polish than Irish.
    You didn't know this?


  • #1616
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dughorm wrote: »
    Nice try - questioning you on your stance is not the same as me accepting it. Do you want me to refer you the posts where I explained my philosophy of education?
    Refer to what you like, you haven't said one word about why Irish, a currently dead language, needs forcing on the Irish population whereas more popular languages spoken by Irish people such as Polish and Chinese do not.


  • #1617
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dughorm wrote: »
    And the Irish language - so why not learn both!
    Nobody's stopping you.
    Now, why FORCE people to learn both?


  • #1618
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    You're wrong because you are wrong is quite literally what this response boils down to.
    As cultural English speakers, Irish most certainly is not the average Irish person's language. Polish and Chinese have a better claim to that of course, which you'd prefer not to recognise I'm sure.

    I thought we were culturally Irish, native English speakers in general? Just like the English are culturally English, native English speakers?

    Do you not believe Irish culture exists? Or is it simply you feel that you do not belong to it?


  • #1619
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Refer to what you like, you haven't said one word about why Irish, a currently dead language, needs forcing on the Irish population whereas more popular languages spoken by Irish people such as Polish and Chinese do not.

    But the popularity of a language in Ireland at present is not a reason I think a language should be compulsory? Do you think this is a good idea?


  • #1620
    umop apisdn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 279 ✭✭umop apisdn


    I recently watched to self proclaimed Irish language experts have a petty argument over the "correct" use of a simple Irish word in front of beginners. This is one of the many reasons Irish has failed in Ireland. I learned far more French and German at school than Irish, and I was interested in learning Irish. The syllabus, books, and method of teaching was abysmal. For petty political and nationalistic reasons, the whole teaching of Irish was and is geared towards pretending we are all native Irish speakers, not people who's first language is actually English. This is why the teaching of Welsh has been a complete success in Wales and a complete failure in Ireland. Two completely different approaches to the same problem. I really wonder at times if the Irish are fit to govern themselves.


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  • #1621
    Deranged96
    Registered Users Posts: 588 ✭✭✭Deranged96


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    More Irish people speak Chinese and Polish than Irish.
    You didn't know this?

    In the 2006 census 1.2 million people reported speaking Irish outside of the education system.

    Seeing as the republic has a population of about 4.7 million, you cannot be correct.


  • #1622
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Nobody's stopping you.
    Now, why FORCE people to learn both?

    Learning English, Irish, Maths should be compulsory for a rounded education. I think that CSPE and SPHE should be compulsory also for the same reason.

    Having a rounded education is a good thing.


  • #1623
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dughorm wrote: »
    I thought we were culturally Irish, native English speakers in general? Just like the English are culturally English, native English speakers?

    Do you not believe Irish culture exists? Or is it simply you feel that you do not belong to it?
    Irish culture exists of course.
    We are culturally English speakers.
    Is that complicated? Pretty easy to grasp for me TBH.


  • #1624
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dughorm wrote: »
    But the popularity of a language in Ireland at present is not a reason I think a language should be compulsory? Do you think this is a good idea?
    I think a complete lack of popularity is a good reason to have it optional, if that's what you're getting at.


  • #1625
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Irish culture exists of course.
    We are culturally English speakers.
    Is that complicated? Pretty easy to grasp for me TBH.

    Why should we not embrace Irish culture? And to embrace Irish culture in the full we should learn the language tools associated with it in my opinion.


  • #1626
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dughorm wrote: »
    Why should we not embrace Irish culture? And to embrace Irish culture in the full we should learn the language tools associated with it in my opinion.
    Which is English.
    Still not seeing why you are having difficulty with this.
    Irish people speak English. End of really.


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  • #1627
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    I think a complete lack of popularity is a good reason to have it optional, if that's what you're getting at.

    How could there be a complete lack of populatity if in the 2006 census 1.2 million people reported speaking Irish outside of the education system?


  • #1628
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Deranged96 wrote: »
    In the 2006 census 1.2 million people reported speaking Irish outside of the education system.

    Seeing as the republic has a population of about 4.7 million, you cannot be correct.
    Aw, nice try. That's the number of people who claimed they could speak Irish.
    The number who actually use it is the one you're looking for and getting your numbers mixed up with.


  • #1629
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Which is English.
    Still not seeing why you are having difficulty with this.
    Irish people speak English. End of really.

    For you maybe and if you are satisfied with that, that is your prerogative. But the education system should give everyone the opportunity to connect with the Irish language side of our heritage in my opinion.


  • #1630
    The Randy Riverbeast
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,770 ✭✭✭The Randy Riverbeast


    Dughorm wrote: »
    How could there be a complete lack of populatity if in the 2006 census 1.2 million people reported speaking Irish outside of the education system?

    If the language is so popular then making it not compulsory will have no affect on it.

    I find that one second people are claiming the language needs protecting while the next its a widely spoken language.


  • #1631
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dughorm wrote: »
    How could there be a complete lack of populatity if in the 2006 census 1.2 million people reported speaking Irish outside of the education system?
    Because it isn't true.
    That's like asking why elephants fly so well. It's not a valid question in the first place.


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  • #1632
    Deranged96
    Registered Users Posts: 588 ✭✭✭Deranged96


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Aw, nice try. That's the number of people who claimed they could speak Irish.
    The number who actually use it is the one you're looking for and getting your numbers mixed up with.

    Clearly you're the authority on who is falsifying their Irish capabilities on the census.

    You're wrong on this point, unless you have a statistic to the contrary, which you don't.


  • #1633
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dughorm wrote: »
    For you maybe
    What do you mean "for me" exactly?
    Are you claiming it is merely my biased opinion that 1% of Irish people use Irish in any fashion daily? This provable fact only exists "for me"? "For you" there's 100% Irish fluency and no English in use on the island I guess?


  • #1634
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Because it isn't true.
    That's like asking why elephants fly so well. It's not a valid question in the first place.

    Wiki says
    "Of the 1.77 million who indicated they could speak Irish, 77,185 said they speak it daily outside the education system. A further 110,642 said they spoke it weekly, while 613,236 said they spoke it less often."

    That sounds like over 800k to me which is closer to Deranged's 1.2m than what you would rather it be Dan Solo!

    Edit:

    Here is the full Wiki Quote:
    Around the turn of the 21st century, estimates of native speakers ranged from 20,000 to 80,000 people.[10][11][12] In the 2006 census for the Republic, 85,000 people reported using Irish as a daily language outside of the education system, and 1.2 million reported using it at least occasionally in or out of school.[13] In the 2011 Census, these numbers had increased to 94,000 and 1.3 million, respectively.[14] There are several thousand Irish speakers in Northern Ireland. It has been estimated that the active Irish-language scene probably comprises 5 to 10 per cent of Ireland's population.[15]


  • #1635
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    The Randy Riverbeast wrote: »
    If the language is so popular then making it not compulsory will have no affect on it.

    I find that one second people are claiming the language needs protecting while the next its a widely spoken language.

    I don't think it should be mandatory to protect it - I think that may be Dan Solo's view? I think it should be mandatory to enable us to connect with our Irish speaking heritage.


  • #1636
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dughorm wrote: »
    Wiki says
    "Of the 1.77 million who indicated they could speak Irish, 77,185 said they speak it daily outside the education system. A further 110,642 said they spoke it weekly, while 613,236 said they spoke it less often."

    That sounds like over 800k to me which is closer to Deranged's 1.2m than what you would rather it be Dan Solo!.
    You're claiming using Irish less than once a week makes somebody an actual "Irish speaker"? "Less often" also includes "never" doesn't it? But you'd rather not admit that either I'm sure...


  • #1637
    Shep_Dog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 499 ✭✭Shep_Dog


    Dughorm wrote: »
    the education system should give everyone the opportunity to connect with the Irish language side of our heritage
    Is that another way of saying 'children should be forced to learn and speak Irish'?


  • #1638
    Solomon Pleasant
    Registered Users Posts: 540 ✭✭✭Solomon Pleasant


    As a student that has just completed LC honours irish I really don't think irish is useful from an everyday point of view.
    But I despise the way people stamp the language into the ground.People died so we could have a chance talk the irish language free from oppression.Just because it isn't useful doesn't make it unimportant, and we can make it useful once again.I have friends from foreign countries and within their homes they speak their language with their families.I find it sad that I cannot do that with my family.Irish should be an integral part of our nationality and anyone Irish who disagrees doesn't really care enough about their own identity to do something about it.
    The question is of course, how do we revive this language? I think it can be done if the attitude towards it changes.But the general attitude must change.


  • #1639
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Deranged96 wrote: »
    Clearly you're the authority on who is falsifying their Irish capabilities on the census.

    You're wrong on this point, unless you have a statistic to the contrary, which you don't.
    So you are now claiming a regular Irish user could use Irish less than once a week? Or if I'm going through the channels and catch 1 second of TG4 am I included in that 1.2m number?


  • #1640
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Solomon Pleasant wrote: »
    AsPeople died so we could have a chance talk the irish language free from oppression.
    They didn't.
    And even if they did, I didn't ask them to.


  • #1641
    The Randy Riverbeast
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,770 ✭✭✭The Randy Riverbeast


    Dughorm wrote: »
    I don't think it should be mandatory to protect it - I think that may be Dan Solo's view? I think it should be mandatory to enable us to connect with our Irish speaking heritage.

    If connecting with my irish speaking heritage was when the teacher translated a poem line by line into english so we knew what it was about before giving us premade essays to learn off I dont I would have missed much of that part of my heritage.


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  • #1642
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    What do you mean "for me" exactly?
    Are you claiming it is merely my biased opinion that 1% of Irish people use Irish in any fashion daily? This provable fact only exists "for me"? "For you" there's 100% Irish fluency and no English in use on the island I guess?

    I never said there was no English in use on the island?!

    Your opinion about Irish is yours and you are totally entitled to hold that view but I don't agree with the % of Irish speakers being a valid criteria to determine whether Irish should be compulsory.

    Irish has been in decline for centuries - that's obviously going to be the case when the majority of the population made a transition to English for daily use generations ago! But claiming the decline in itself is a reason to make it optional doesn't really make sense when a key point of a rounded education is to enable people to connect with Irish culture!


  • #1643
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Shep_Dog wrote: »
    Is that another way of saying 'children should be forced to learn and speak Irish'?

    Do you think that children should be forced to tie their own shoelaces? Your biased language is verging on the ridiculous!!


  • #1644
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    The Randy Riverbeast wrote: »
    If connecting with my irish speaking heritage was when the teacher translated a poem line by line into english so we knew what it was about before giving us premade essays to learn off I dont I would have missed much of that part of my heritage.

    That's so sad :(

    I hope it hasn't turned you off the language forever.


  • #1645
    Solomon Pleasant
    Registered Users Posts: 540 ✭✭✭Solomon Pleasant


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    They didn't.
    And even if they did, I didn't ask them to.

    Your attitude is appalling.Are you even Irish? And yeah pretty sure Irish people died for their freedom that's how we got it.I suppose you think Irish should be drove to extinction yeah?


  • #1646
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Wikipedia "Irish is a main household and/or community language for approximately 1% of the population of the Republic of Ireland"
    http://www.thejournal.ie/census-2011-half-a-million-people-speak-a-language-other-than-english-at-home-400257-Mar2012/
    Headline says it all.
    Irish language. RIP.


  • #1647
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    You're claiming using Irish less than once a week makes somebody an actual "Irish speaker"? "Less often" also includes "never" doesn't it? But you'd rather not admit that either I'm sure...

    Yes - someone who would only use Irish on holidays in Connemara each year would be an Irish speaker - do you agree?

    I think Never is a separate category on the census form but perhaps someone more informed on this can confirm?


  • #1648
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,712 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Solomon Pleasant wrote: »
    Your attitude is appalling.Are you even Irish? And yeah pretty sure Irish people died for their freedom that's how we got it.I suppose you think Irish should be drove to extinction yeah?

    Either these people died for out freedom to express out dislike for something, or they died for nothing. Cuts both ways.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • #1649
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dughorm wrote: »
    claiming the decline in itself is a reason to make it optional doesn't really make sense when a key point of a rounded education is to enable people to connect with Irish culture!
    Hahaha, no it bloody well isn't.
    The point is to enable people to capable, happy and productive members of society. A society that speaks a common language which happens to be English.


  • #1650
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    So you are now claiming a regular Irish user could use Irish less than once a week? Or if I'm going through the channels and catch 1 second of TG4 am I included in that 1.2m number?

    You should watch some TG4 there's some very good progammes on it - even if you want to block your ears and read the subtitles only :D


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  • #1651
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Solomon Pleasant wrote: »
    Your attitude is appalling.Are you even Irish? And yeah pretty sure Irish people died for their freedom that's how we got it.I suppose you think Irish should be drove to extinction yeah?
    It's like hitting a knee with a hammer. "I don't want Irish to be compulsory."... "you're not even Irish are you".
    More strawmanning and conflation. Marvellous.
    "Died for our freedom" is not the same as "died for our freedom to speak Irish". They died for our freedom to have self-determination. And we've determined to speak English.
    Simple facts.


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