The Irish language is failing.

Solomon Pleasant

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Either these people died for out freedom to express out dislike for something, or they died for nothing. Cuts both ways.

Clearly they haven't for nothing-We gained independence.Would you want irish to be completely extinct?

The Randy Riverbeast

Dughorm wrote: »

That's so sad

I hope it hasn't turned you off the language forever.

Oh no. I was able to separate an awful curriculum from the language itself. For me languages have always just been a tool of communication. If everyone who speaks a language also speaks my native language fluently then there isn't much point in me learning it.

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

You should watch some TG4 there's some very good progammes on it - even if you want to block your ears and read the subtitles only

I agree. There's some good stuff on it alright to be fair.
None of it is in Irish mind.

PopePalpatine

Solomon Pleasant wrote: »

Clearly they haven't for nothing-We gained independence.Would you want irish to be completely extinct?

There's a whole host of independent Spanish-speaking countries in Central and South America. They don't see anything wrong with speaking the language of their former colonist.

Dan_Solo

Solomon Pleasant wrote: »

Clearly they haven't for nothing-We gained independence.Would you want irish to be completely extinct?

None of the sentences in this post appear to be connected...
Irishmen died for self-determination therefore Irish should be mandatory in school?
Wha?

Dughorm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Hahaha, no it bloody well isn't.
The point is to enable people to capable, happy and productive members of society. A society that speaks a common language which happens to be English.

And that is your philosophy of education and you are entitled to it - it's just a pity to exclude Irish as being a necessary ingredient to it. I adhere to a more liberal arts view of a rounded education - we don't learn simply to be "productive" to others in my opinion.

Solomon Pleasant

Dan_Solo wrote: »

It's like hitting a knee with a hammer. "I don't want Irish to be compulsory."... "you're not even Irish are you".
More strawmanning and conflation. Marvellous.
"Died for our freedom" is not the same as "died for our freedom to speak Irish". They died for our freedom to have self-determination. And we've determined to speak English.
Simple facts.

So you feel no connection to the irish langgauge or have no desire to see any kind of revival? You believe it plays no part in who we are? You don't feel even slightly jealous when you realise that most other countries can converse in their own unique language?

And by the way yeah fighting for freedom was fighting for our language as it was a part of it.Not solely based on it but they fought for the language and the freedom to speak it.

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

I adhere to a more liberal arts view of a rounded education - we don't learn simply to be "productive" to others in my opinion.

Just as well I didn't say that then isn't it?
Care to give the other two things I said an education should provide instead of cherry picking the "productive" one?

Dughorm

The Randy Riverbeast wrote: »

Oh no. I was able to separate an awful curriculum from the language itself. For me languages have always just been a tool of communication. If everyone who speaks a language also speaks my native language fluently then there isn't much point in me learning it.

I suppose you'll miss out on learning Dutch, Welsh, Norwegian, Swedish etc... by definition as well - you won't even consider learning them

Dughorm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Just as well I didn't say that then isn't it?
Care to give the other two things I said an education should provide instead of cherry picking the "productive" one?

Well that's the prevailing message in your philosophy it appears to me. By all means explain to me what you mean by "capable" and "happy" - are they linked to being productive??

Dan_Solo

Solomon Pleasant wrote: »

So you feel no connection to the irish langgauge or have no desire to see any kind of revival? You believe it plays no part in who we are? You don't feel even slightly jealous when you realise that most other countries can converse in their own unique language?

And by the way yeah fighting for freedom was fighting for our language as it was a part of it.Not solely based on it but they fought for the language and the freedom to speak it.

Irish is part of our freedom? Huh? They died so we could speak Irish, not for self-determination? You sure about that?
What you're saying is Irishmen died to force other Irishmen to speak Irish? Gee thanks guys...

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

Well that's the prevailing message in your philosophy it appears to me. By all means explain to me what you mean by "capable" and "happy" - are they linked to being productive??

Why do they have to be linked to productive?
Does you own "education philosophy" not want people to be happy or capable that you're so fixated that on the word productive?

Solomon Pleasant

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Irish is part of our freedom? Huh? They died so we could speak Irish, not for self-determination? You sure about that?
What you're saying is Irishmen died to force other Irishmen to speak Irish? Gee thanks guys...

Irish is part of our identity.They died for our independence and speaking irish was a part of that.Naturally the ability to govern our own country came with winning this independence-self determination, yes.You see now you've intoroduced the education system into the arguement.Obviously the system isn't perfect but it's not something that cannot be worked on and altered.Your attitude however is something which poses a much bigger challenge, why are so against the language?

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

I suppose you'll miss out on learning Dutch, Welsh, Norwegian, Swedish etc... by definition as well - you won't even consider learning them

I'd consider learning them if I moved there. Just as if someone moved to Ireland they would want to be learning English, the language spoken daily by most people in the country.

Dughorm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Why do they have to be linked to productive?
Does you own "education philosophy" not want people to be happy or capable that you're so fixated that on the word productive?

That's the gist of what I gathered from your philosophy.... maybe they're not..... I can't read your mind... but when you say "capable" it could look like "capable" is a synonym of being "productive"......

Why am I commenting on "productive"? Well you're the one who mentioned it!! Two of the three words you used seem interchangeable! Is capable = productive?

At least we can agree that we certainly know "happy" to you means not learning Irish

Dan_Solo

Solomon Pleasant wrote: »

Irish is part of our identity.

Are you telling me what my identity is? Who's "our"?
If Irishmen died for freedom then we have exercised that freedom and chosen to speak English.

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

At least we can agree that we certainly know "happy" to you means not learning Irish

Again, you are inventing.
"Happy" is being fully fluent and having a thorough understanding of the common language: English. AND having the OPTION of learning other languages such as Irish.
Why, do you think people are actually happier being forced to learn Irish?

Dughorm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I'd consider learning them if I moved there. Just as if someone moved to Ireland they would want to be learning English, the language spoken daily by most people in the country.

What I think is a real success story is when we hear those delightful stories of the "new Irish" are choosing to embrace the Irish language when they decide to move here!

umop apisdn

PopePalpatine wrote: »

There's a whole host of independent Spanish-speaking countries in Central and South America. They don't see anything wrong with speaking the language of their former colonist.

high aspirations right there . . .

Solomon Pleasant

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Are you telling me what my identity is? Who's "our"?
If Irishmen died for freedom then we have exercised that freedom and chosen to speak English.

I'm telling you that as an Irish person (if you are) the irish language is part of your identity and heritage.Not everyone has chosen to speak english without Irish.ill ask you again-why are you so against the irish language? Do you want it extinct?

Dughorm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Again, you are inventing.
"Happy" is being fully fluent and having a thorough understanding of the common language: English. AND having the OPTION of learning other languages such as Irish.

You seemed to miss that joke I made there... it feels like we're talking in different languages here!!

So since you've ignored my question, I'll take it two of the three words you use to describe your philosophy, "productive" and "capable", do mean focusing on educating our children to join the chain of cogs in the economic wheel - what an impoverished view of education!!

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Why, do you think people are actually happier being forced to learn Irish?

I guess it's the same reason that children are happier being forced to tie their own shoe laces :pac:

The Randy Riverbeast

Dughorm wrote: »

I suppose you'll miss out on learning Dutch, Welsh, Norwegian, Swedish etc... by definition as well - you won't even consider learning them

All those languages (except for Welsh) are spoken by 90%+ of the population as their main language so there would be some benefit to knowing a few basic phrases if Im going to spend time in those countries.

Irish is spoken by 1% of the population as their first language according to a link above. I wonder what level of English that 1% has. Unless they avoid the rest of the world I would assume they would have native level of the language.

Dughorm

The Randy Riverbeast wrote: »

All those languages (except for Welsh) are spoken by 90%+ of the population as their main language so there would be some benefit to knowing a few basic phrases if Im going to spend time in those countries.

I'm just trying to reconcile this with your point that "If everyone who speaks a language also speaks my native language fluently then there isn't much point in me learning it."

Why bother even learning the few basic phrases?

Dan_Solo

Solomon Pleasant wrote: »

I'm telling you that as an Irish person (if you are) the irish language is part of your identity and heritage.Not everyone has chosen to speak english without Irish.ill ask you again-why are you so against the irish language? Do you want it extinct?

And who the hell are you to tell me what my "identity" is do you mind me asking?
Once more for those who don't seem to be able to get it the first million or so times: not wanting to be forced to learn something isn't the same as wanting that thing to disappear. K?

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

I guess it's the same reason that children are happier being forced to tie their own shoe laces :pac:

But they need to learn that. They do not need to learn Irish.
Can you even tell the difference?

The Randy Riverbeast

Dughorm wrote: »

I'm just trying to reconcile this with your point that "If everyone who speaks a language also speaks my native language fluently then there isn't much point in me learning it."

Why bother even learning the few basic phrases?

In these countries English is a second language to most of the population and many wouldnt quite have English as a fluent level. They could talk to you but may be confused by some words so you have to reword what your saying for them to understand you.

Then a lot of people might address you in the language first because the majority of their population can speak the language.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Solomon Pleasant wrote: »

Clearly they haven't for nothing-We gained independence.Would you want irish to be completely extinct?

You;ve been accused of strawman arguments frequently enough to know that there is no correlation between what I wrote and your last sentence. FWIW - no, I wouldn't, unless it was the choice of 100% of the population. Not 99.9% - 100%. As that's very unlikely to happen, I don't see a problem.

Also, please notice that I began my post with the word "either".

Dughorm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

But they need to learn that. They do not need to learn Irish.
Can you even tell the difference?

I actually think an Irish rounded education needs to include Irish where possible.

So tell me do you buy into the capitalist view of education that your philosophy implies? Are we to be educated to produce and consume? Can education strive to greater things?!

Solomon Pleasant

Dan_Solo wrote: »

And who the hell are you to tell me what my "identity" is do you mind me asking?
Once more for those who don't seem to be able to get it the first million or so times: not wanting to be forced to learn something isn't the same as wanting that thing to disappear. K?

I didn't tell you what your identity is and frankly I don't care.However if you are Irish than the language is a part of it. Like it or not.Excuse me but are you currently bring forced to learn the irish language? And yeah if something isn't done about it the language will disappear.Dont think the Germans or the French would let theirs die out, the Welsh even managed to revive theirs-A massive success.You don't find it the slightest bit sad that irish will die out? You don't care in the slightest?

Dughorm

The Randy Riverbeast wrote: »

In these countries English is a second language to most of the population and many wouldnt quite have English as a fluent level. They could talk to you but may be confused by some words so you have to reword what your saying for them to understand you.

Then a lot of people might address you in the language first because the majority of their population can speak the language.

If you have visited those countries surely you would have noticed how fluent in English the majority actually are??!! The one time I saw a Dutch person confused was when someone with a thick Cork accent tried to order a sandwich!!!

Carlos Orange

Solomon Pleasant wrote: »

You don't find it the slightest bit sad that irish will die out? You don't care in the slightest?

Forcing your language on others because you don't think enough people care about it to keep it alive is a losing proposition to people who don't care about your language.

Solomon Pleasant

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

You;ve been accused of strawman arguments frequently enough to know that there is no correlation between what I wrote and your last sentence. FWIW - no, I wouldn't, unless it was the choice of 100% of the population. Not 99.9% - 100%. As that's very unlikely to happen, I don't see a problem.

Also, please notice that I began my post with the word "either".

I know there was no connection between that question and the previous post. I just wondered if that's what you want.But you don't seem to care about the language atall, like would it bother you if no one ever spoke it again? Would you like to be able to speak Irish at home?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Solomon Pleasant wrote: »

I'm telling you that as an Irish person (if you are) the irish language is part of your identity and heritage

Elaborate on what you mean by "identiy" and "heritage". I have a very strong individual identity that, for the record, comes from working as an artist. It's nothing to do being Irish though, as there's little or no Irish infleunces in it.

Do you mean "Irish" as a noun or an adjective?

Solomon Pleasant

psinno wrote: »

Forcing your language on others because you don't think enough people care about it to keep it alive is a losing proposition to people who don't care about your language.

I don't force the language on anyone.But I actually care enough to try to challenge the dismissive attitude of people towards the language.If you simply don't care there's not a lot anyone can do, guess it'll just be another thing Ireland can be scoffed at by other countries.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Solomon Pleasant wrote: »

I know there was no connection between that question and the previous post. I just wondered if that's what you want.But you don't seem to care about the language atall, like would it bother you if no one ever spoke it again? Would you like to be able to speak Irish at home?

If there's no connection, then please refrain from implying one. (Although I accept, this may have been accidental).

As to your questions:
I don't see where you've picked up the idea that I don't care about the langauge; i've answered the second one; and not really, but I resepct those who do.

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

I actually think an Irish rounded education needs to include Irish where possible.

So tell me do you buy into the capitalist view of education that your philosophy implies? Are we to be educated to produce and consume? Can education strive to greater things?!

You can start a thread about that if you want, yes?
We're here to discuss whether the Irish language should be forced on the Irish population who clearly don't want to use it.
You have as yet make pretty much no case at all that Irish "needs" to be included. None.

Dan_Solo

Solomon Pleasant wrote: »

If you simply don't care there's not a lot anyone can do

Why should anybody even try to do anything? It's none of your business TBH.

Carlos Orange

Solomon Pleasant wrote: »

I don't force the language on anyone.But I actually care enough to try to challenge the dismissive attitude of people towards the language.If you simply don't care there's not a lot anyone can do, guess it'll just be another thing Ireland can be scoffed at by other countries.

Then stop saying things like "if you are Irish than the language is a part of it".

Solomon Pleasant

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Elaborate on what you mean by "identiy" and "heritage". I have a very strong individual identity that, for the record, comes from working as an artist. It's nothing to do being Irish though, as there's little or no Irish infleunces in it.

Do you mean "Irish" as a noun or an adjective?

Someone in previous generations of your family spoke irish if they lived in Ireland.Idebtity and heritage is about who you are, it's your roots, your history, where is your sense of pride for being irish?The word irish describes where you came from.You knew the answers to all of your questions. You're just looking to poke holes.

Dughorm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

You can start a thread about that if you want, yes?
We're here to discuss whether the Irish language should be forced on the Irish population who clearly don't want to use it.
You have as yet make pretty much no case at all that Irish "needs" to be included. None.

But as can be clearly seen most of the population are positively disposed to the learning of Irish even after being "forced" to learn it... but not you!

It also seems you have an educational philosophy which places a high value on being "productive" so it makes sense that you don't want Irish to be mandatory as it isn't "productive" enough for your capitalist tendencies! There's nothing wrong with that - but I don't think I'd like your bean-counter educational approach being forced on our children.

Solomon Pleasant

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Why should anybody even try to do anything? It's none of your business TBH.

Because some people actually care about Irish believe it or not.Some people are passionate about it and want to see it succeed.

umop apisdn

Solomon Pleasant wrote: »

I'm telling you that as an Irish person (if you are) the irish language is part of your identity and heritage.

So why did successive Irish governments and Irish language activists make such a balls of teaching it in our schools compared to other languages ?

Solomon Pleasant

psinno wrote: »

Then stop saying things like "if you are Irish than the language is a part of it".

That's not forcing the language on you.Thats telling you what anyone with a hint self identity knows

Solomon Pleasant

umop apisdn wrote: »

So why did successive Irish governments and Irish language activists make such a balls of teaching it in our schools compared to other languages ?

Yeah I agree that there have been mistakes in how it has been taught.But that can be changed, I don't really know, perhaps they didn't care enough to introduce the subject in a proper way? I think it's a difficult thing to approach, do you have any ideas of how you would like Irish to be taught?

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

But as can be clearly seen most of the population are positively disposed to the learning of Irish even after being "forced" to learn it... but not you!

Where did you get/fabricate that the population is positively disposed to forced teaching of Irish? Or are you just on strawman duty again?

Dan_Solo

Solomon Pleasant wrote: »

Because some people actually care about Irish believe it or not.Some people are passionate about it and want to see it succeed.

So because you care about Irish everybody else has to be forced to learn it?
Gotcha.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Solomon Pleasant wrote: »

Someone in previous generations of your family spoke irish if they lived in Ireland.Idebtity and heritage is about who you are, it's your roots, your history, where is your sense of pride for being irish?The word irish describes where you came from.You knew the answers to all of your questions. You're just looking to poke holes.

No, I'm trying to get your understanding of it and why it's important.

"Identiy" for me is the collection of my personal experiences of life - both good and bad; myy relationships and interactions with other people and my tastes. This are the things that define Who I Am and what my character is.

Identiy is not the place I was born or the lanaguge spoken by my forefathers - this has had no influence on me. You may be disappointed to hear this, but what I'm asking you is this: how you think it should?

Dughorm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Where did you get/fabricate that the population is positively disposed to forced teaching of Irish?

The ESRI study said that the majority of irish people are positively disposed to the language - even though they have been so "forced" to learn it as you put it...

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Or are you just on strawman duty again?

Oh no... I'm off duty - sorry am I not being productive enough for you?? :pac:

Dan_Solo

Solomon Pleasant wrote: »

That's not forcing the language on you.Thats telling you what anyone with a hint self identity knows

Fine, you've told me whatever waffle you had to say.
Now, what has this to do with forcing me to learn Irish? Is this the new Paddyman's Burden, it being your duty to bring the culture we really want to us even though we all refuse to employ it?

osarusan

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

No, I'm trying to get your understanding of it and why it's important.

"Identiy" for me is the collection of my personal experiences of life - both good and bad; myy relationships and interactions with other people and my tastes. This are the things that define Who I Am and what my character is.

Identiy is not the place I was born or the lanaguge spoken by my forefathers - this has had no influence on me. You may be disappointed to hear this, but what I'm asking you is this: how you think it should?

No, sorry, you're obviously wrong.

The other poster clearly knows more about your self-identity than you do.