The Irish language is failing.

Dughorm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

No, I'm trying to get your understanding of it and why it's important.

"Identiy" for me is the collection of my personal experiences of life - both good and bad; myy relationships and interactions with other people and my tastes. This are the things that define Who I Am and what my character is.

Identiy is not the place I was born or the lanaguge spoken by my forefathers - this has had no influence on me. You may be disappointed to hear this, but what I'm asking you is this: how you think it should?

How do you define your "heritage" PCB?

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

The ESRI study said that the majority of irish people are positively disposed to the language - even though they have been so "forced" to learn it as you put it...

Which says nothing at all about whether they want it to be forced on people does it? Glad we've cleared that up.

Dughorm wrote: »

Oh no... I'm off duty - sorry am I not being productive enough for you?? :pac:

Like I predicted, you'd be fixated on "productive" instead of the "capable" and "happy" I also mentioned.
I guess you don't want Irish people to be either of the latter then as you only want to talk about the productive bit?

Dughorm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Which says nothing at all about whether they want it to be forced on people does it? Glad we've cleared that up.

Never said it did - go back and read what I said - total red herring!

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Like I predicted, you'd be fixated on "productive" instead of the "capable" and "happy" I also mentioned.
I guess you don't want Irish people to be either of the latter then as you only want to talk about the productive bit?

I'm glad you predicted that I choose to expose a certain obvious weakness in your argument (and philosophy in my opinion) - how about you go about addressing it??!! Instead you genuinely accuse me of not wanting Irish people to happy - how spurious is that?? Is this something from the Donald Trump school of arguing?!

umop apisdn

Solomon Pleasant wrote: »

Yeah I agree that there have been mistakes in how it has been taught.But that can be changed, I don't really know, perhaps they didn't care enough to introduce the subject in a proper way? I think it's a difficult thing to approach, do you have any ideas of how you would like Irish to be taught?

I don't think it should be compulsory after junior cert for starters, that just causes a seething resentment as it's so badly taught compared to other languages. I learned far more French and German in school that I ever did Irish, and I was interested in learning Irish. Also I've witnessed native speakers fighting over who pronounces even the most basic phrases correctly, never mind them constantly turning their nose up at anyone outside the Irish Gaeltacht clic that tries to speak it. After seeing all that its a language and clic I want nothing to do with, and would prefer to learn a European language that doesn't have the same barriers and clics going on. If Irish language promoters want to prevent Irish from disappearing completely they need to address these issues and teaching methods, but they have always refused to do so.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Dughorm wrote: »

How do you define your "heritage" PCB?

I don't really have a definition of it because I've never used it as an argument. This is why I'm asking what people specifcially mean when by "my heritage" despite having never met me.

Dughorm

umop apisdn wrote: »

Also I've witnessed native speakers fighting over who pronounces even the most basic phrases correctly, never mind them constantly turning their nose up at anyone outside the Irish Gaeltacht clic that tries to speak it..... If Irish language promoters want to prevent Irish from disappearing completely they need to address these issues and teaching methods, but they have always refused to do so.

That's appalling - why are they so elitist? There are normal Irish speakers out there too, much more down to earth - don't let a few dopes turn you off!!

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

I'm glad you predicted that I choose to expose a certain obvious weakness in your argument (and philosophy in my opinion) - how about you go about addressing it??!! Instead you genuinely accuse me of not wanting Irish people to happy - how spurious is that?? Is this something from the Donald Trump school of arguing?!

Fostering happy, capable and productive members of society is an "obvious weakness" because I said they should be productive?
Go on then, tell us why being productive is a problem in otherwise happy and capable school leavers? This should be good...

Dughorm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I don't really have a definition of it because I've never used it as an argument. This is why I'm asking what people specifcially mean when by "my heritage" despite having never met me.

I think only you can define your identity - whether only you can define your heritage is a more open question - because I think heritage can really only be broken down to a 'clan' level rather than the individual. Heritage seems to be the answer to the question "Who are your people?" - it covers topics such as ancestry, historical culture, intransience etc...

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Dughorm wrote: »

I think only you can define your identity - whether only you can define your heritage is a more open question - because I think heritage can really only be broken down to a 'clan' level rather than the individual. Heritage seems to be the answer to the question "Who are your people?" - it covers topics such as ancestry, historical culture, intransience etc...

Fair enough, but the question remains: how does this influence the individual living today?

It's also important (for me, anyway) that I have the ability to express my self and not my ancestors.

And this really is the crux of the debate here - defining the difference between self and heritage - as education doesn't allow for this.

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

I think only you can define your identity - whether only you can define your heritage is a more open question - because I think heritage can really only be broken down to a 'clan' level rather than the individual. Heritage seems to be the answer to the question "Who are your people?" - it covers topics such as ancestry, historical culture, intransience etc...

Then what bearing has "heritage" on what you should be forced to learn at school when it quite possibly has nothing at all to do with your "identity"?

Dughorm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Fostering happy, capable and productive members of society is an "obvious weakness" because I said they should be productive?
Go on then, tell us why being productive is a problem in otherwise happy and capable school leavers? This should be good...

You keep ignoring my question whether 'capable' and 'productive' are synonyms to you? Why is that? Capable to what? capable to be productive?

So that leaves us two things: happy and productive/capable.

Happy - it's unclear to me how you propose to educate people to be happy? Sounds sort of coercive - "This is how you're going to be happy!!"

But your reference to productive/capable speaks volumes - it clearly shows what you think the purpose of education is - No "The Idea of a University" for you!! Nothing wrong with being productive but it shouldn't be the primary goal of education!! No wonder the current standing of Irish doesn't fit into your scheme of things!!

umop apisdn

Dughorm wrote: »

That's appalling - why are they so elitist? There are normal Irish speakers out there too, much more down to earth - don't let a few dopes turn you off!!

I was once told its an attempt to try and protect and limit the access to the Irish grants, jobs, etc. , and it's killed off Irish in my opinion.

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

You keep ignoring my question whether 'capable' and 'productive' are synonyms to you? Why is that? Capable to what? capable to be productive?
So that leaves us two things: happy and productive/capable.

It does if you insist "capable" can only mean "productive" so you can yet again fabricate a strawman. Capable of functioning to a high level in whatever they choose to do would be just as good a definition of capable, yes? Doesn't work for your fixed internal narrative I suppose.

Dughorm wrote: »

Happy - it's unclear to me how you propose to educate people to be happy? Sounds sort of coercive - "This is how you're going to be happy!!"

People with a better education tend to have more fulfilling lives, yes? I never said I would "educate them to be happy", again, more invention on your behalf. I said the end result should be to have them happy, both as individuals and as members of society.

Dughorm wrote: »

But your reference to productive/capable speaks volumes - it clearly shows what you think the purpose of education is - No "The Idea of a University" for you!! Nothing wrong with being productive but it shouldn't be the primary goal of education!! No wonder the current standing of Irish doesn't fit into your scheme of things!!

Bollix really. You've been barking up this "productive" (which you've had to repeatedly lie about me saying was "the primary goal of education") tree for pages now and it reeks of desperation on your behalf to try and get some mud to stick.
Hard luck on being found out so easily.

Dughorm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Then what bearing has "heritage" on what you should be forced to learn at school when it quite possibly has nothing at all to do with your "identity"?

I'm not sure what you are saying here... are you suggesting the education system should facilitate individuals who choose to reject their heritage? Because identity is person specific how can any educational system fit everyone's identity?

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

I'm not sure what you are saying here... are you suggesting the education system should facilitate individuals who choose to reject their heritage? Because identity is person specific how can any educational system fit everyone's identity?

Heritage is historical. The education system should teach people how to function in the modern age. Not how to speak in a language who's heyday ended before we had electricity.

Dan_Solo

@Dughorn
Still waiting to hear what purpose Irish serves in your own "education philosophy" beyond "it's Irish, we're Irish, so, um, ya know."

Dughorm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

It does if you insist "capable" can only mean "productive" so you can yet again fabricate a strawman. Capable of functioning to a high level in whatever they choose to do would be just as good a definition of capable, yes? Doesn't work for your fixed internal narrative I suppose.
People with a better education tend to have more fulfilling lives, yes? I never said I would "educate them to be happy", again, more invention on your behalf. I said the end result should be to have them happy, both as individuals and as members of society.

Bollix really. You've been barking up this "productive" (which you've had to repeatedly lie about me saying was "the primary goal of education") tree for pages now and it reeks of desperation on your behalf to try and get some mud to stick.
Hard luck on being found out so easily.

If you weren't so evasive on defining what you meant by your philosophy we wouldn't need to tease this out! Instead you decide to accuse me of not wanting people to be happy?!! Now that's desperation! What sort of sadist do you think I am?! :pac:

Now that we have a better idea of what your philosophy is... it does sound rather bland - you've taken the capitalist edge off it since I commented on it.

In any case you haven't presented any evidence to show people have been *less* capable or happy studying Irish in school at present.

As well as this, what's your evidence to say that people with a better education tend to have more fulfilling lives? That sounds rather elitist...

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

Now that we have a better idea of what your philosophy is... it does sound rather bland - you've taken the capitalist edge off it since I commented on it.

It doesn't sound so capitalist since I insisted you stop reading every word I wrote as CAPITALIST. I can imagine you going through Rorschach cards roaring CAPITALISM!!! at every one...

Dughorm wrote: »

In any case you haven't presented any evidence to show people have been *less* capable or happy studying Irish in school at present.

Have I not? Any chance that would because nobody in the entire thread has asked?
Less capable or happy than *what*? You haven't actually provided a comparator. Want another attempt?

Dughorm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Heritage is historical.

Yes, by definition it has to be...

Dan_Solo wrote: »

The education system should teach people how to function in the modern age.

That sounds so empty as the highest aspiration of education - I suppose you think it should be "practical" and "pragmatic" or even better... "applied"!

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Not how to speak in a language who's heyday ended before we had electricity.

Given that rural electrification only began in 1955 - that sentence probably sounds more impressive in your head than in reality! Try again!

Dughorm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

@Dughorn
Still waiting to hear what purpose Irish serves in your own "education philosophy" beyond "it's Irish, we're Irish, so, um, ya know."

I explained that a length some 50 pages ago - I'm not in the habit of repeating myself

Dughorm

umop apisdn wrote: »

I was once told its an attempt to try and protect and limit the access to the Irish grants, jobs, etc. , and it's killed off Irish in my opinion.

To be honest it wouldn't surprise me

Dughorm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

It doesn't sound so capitalist since I insisted you stop reading every word I wrote as CAPITALIST. I can imagine you going through Rorschach cards roaring CAPITALISM!!! at every one...

Lol! That has the makings of a good skit there in fairness....

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Have I not? Any chance that would because nobody in the entire thread has asked?
Less capable or happy than *what*? You haven't actually provided a comparator. Want another attempt?

That's up to you - you have marked the key tenants of your philosophy as "capable" and "happy" its up to you to define them. Are you looking to *maximise* capability and happiness like some sort of educational investment product?

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

Yes, by definition it has to be...

So we should all learn a language that is almost entirely in our history... not getting it I'm afraid.

Dughorm wrote: »

That sounds so empty as the highest aspiration of education - I suppose you think it should be "practical" and "pragmatic" or even better... "applied"!

JFC, you're a bit of a broken record with this one aren't you? So you think education shouldn't make people productive, capable or capable of functioning in modern society? If not, why are you whining about all these terms?

Dughorm wrote: »

Given that rural electrification only began in 1955 - that sentence probably sounds more impressive in your head than in reality! Try again!

Ah yes, add in a word, hope nobody notices and then pretend it rebuts the original proposition.
Gee, imagine if people actually fell for that sort of lameness?

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

That's up to you - you have marked the key tenants of your philosophy as "capable" and "happy" its up to you to define them. Are you looking to *maximise* capability and happiness like some sort of educational investment product?

TBH the way you keep introducing these terms like "educational investment product" out of the blue says much more about you that it does about me. Yeah, we get it, you think any curriculum that excludes Irish must be purely utilitarian and churn out robopupils.
Give it a rest. It's embarrassing not to mention tedious at this stage.

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

I explained that a length some 50 pages ago - I'm not in the habit of repeating myself

Or indeed linking to your previous posts it would seem that are of course, definitely there somewhere. Right beside that time machine schematic I posted earlier no doubt that I don't feel like linking to or repeating right now... yeah, sure.

Sh1tbag OToole

Dughorm wrote: »

Now that we have a better idea of what your philosophy is... it does sound rather bland - you've taken the capitalist edge off it since I commented on it.

The way things are going is rather bland. People look at Irish and think we should get rid of it but soon enough other EU countries will be asking themselves the same question in the next few decades.

Children all over Europe are being 'forced' to learn English despite having little or no interest in it mainly because their governments want them to know it for economic reasons. Then when the population has a certain grasp of English all the bland mass-produced English music and advertising comes in, user interfaces and manuals stop being translated and at that point the native language starts to come under threat. New words in the native language tend to be English loanwords and that language starts to slowly become more and more English.

Maybe places like Malta, Iceland and the Faroe Islands will eventually get rid of their native languages but the economic benefits of such a move will surely be short lived.

Dughorm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

So we should all learn a language that is almost entirely in our history... not getting it I'm afraid.

Learning Irish is one of those amazing subjects that actually combines both past and present in a most interesting way once you give it a chance! Did you ever give it an honest go?

Dan_Solo wrote: »

JFC, you're a bit of a broken record with this one aren't you? So you think education shouldn't make people productive, capable or capable of functioning in modern society? If not, why are you whining about all these terms?

Ok, I get that you want people to function - I aspire to education where people transcend mere functionality - a lofty ideal sure but a most wholesome one!

Dan_Solo wrote:

Ah yes, add in a word, hope nobody notices and then pretend it rebuts the original proposition.
Gee, imagine if people actually fell for that sort of lameness?

You're fond of the old "Argumentum ad populum" aren't you! What's really lame is accusing me of not wanting people to be happy! A bizarre statement which really takes from the credibility of your arguments!

Dughorm

Sh1tbag OToole wrote: »

Children all over Europe are being 'forced' to learn English despite having little or no interest in it mainly because their governments want them to know it for economic reasons.

You've some interest points there - but this one i'm not sure of - lots of people I've met were delighted to be learning English because they wanted to go to America for work etc...

Dughorm

Dan,

It's been fun - I'm off now for the night!

Oíche mhaith agus codladh sámh !

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

Learning Irish is one of those amazing subjects that actually combines both past and present in a most interesting way once you give it a chance! Did you ever give it an honest go?

What is it with the personalisation and anecdotes all the time with the compulsory Irish crowd? My level of Irish is irrelevant to whether it should be forced on pupils or not.

Dughorm wrote: »

You're fond of the old "Argumentum ad populum" aren't you! What's really lame is accusing me of not wanting people to be happy! A bizarre statement which really takes from the credibility of your arguments!

Well "functional", "productive" and "capable" appear to have sent you into palpitations, so apologies if I thought you saw "happy" and were also screaming EVIL CAPITALISM!!!

Sh1tbag OToole

Dughorm wrote: »

You've some interest points there - but this one i'm not sure of - lots of people I've met were delighted to be learning English because they wanted to go to America for work etc...

The same could be said about any language though. Maybe if I learnt Saami when I was younger I would now be tearing through a forest in Lapland on a snowmobile with a high powered rifle on my back shootin deer like a bawse instead of sitting on boards at this late hour.

Maybe if I actually learnt Irish in school and was able to speak it I would have moved to the Aran Islands or Cape clear and be tearing around on a Currach with an outboard that is really too heavy for it.

Perhaps instead of offering the same boring choices of French, German and Spanish secondary schools should offer the chance to learn at least one obscure language like Catalan, Occitan, Faroese. You'll get a load of sellouts wanting to learn the common languages to slightly increase their chance of getting a job but not everyone thinks like that. At least it would give the obscure and dying languages a chance.

I don't think too many people will be praising us for what a good job we did letting all these pesky languages die in a hundred or so years when everyone speaks only English or Mandarin

Dughorm

Dughorm wrote: »

"Who are your people?"

That's a very Irish question, and one inspired by the Irish language. When I was re-learning Irish, I was slightly bemused but tickled when someone asked me "cé leatsa?" as a way of asking who my family were.

The Irish language has an influence on the way we speak and the way we think - even when we're doing so in English, which is why we speak that language differently to the British.

Iwasfrozen

Sh1tbag OToole wrote: »

I don't think too many people will be praising us for what a good job we did letting all these pesky languages die in a hundred or so years when everyone speaks only English or Mandarin

You sure about that? The average Irish person is grateful to speak English. The English language is considered one of our greatest national assets, a asset we only posses because our ancestors started speaking English.

I for one am glad my ancestors switched to the old bearla.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I have the ability to express my self and not my ancestors.

Are you sure you're not expressing your ancestors? You probably are giving expression to them in some way if you've heard their stories, as many people get to do. Are you sure that where you were born (or at least where you were raised) really, truly has no part in shaping your identity?

Really sure? Or just saying you're sure because you like the certainty?

Dan_Solo

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Heritage is historical. The education system should teach people how to function in the modern age.

What's wrong with History? You really have some odd prejudices.

Dughorm

Dughorm wrote: »

Given that rural electrification only began in 1955...

My father grew up in a house in downtown Dundalk that had no leccy in 1945. Dundalk may well be provincial, but it's not rural.

Sh1tbag OToole

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

You sure about that? The average Irish person is grateful to speak English. The English language is considered one of our greatest national assets, a asset we only posses because our ancestors started speaking English.

I for one am glad my ancestors switched to the old bearla.

Haha you say it like they had a choice. Quite sure anyway, the 'asset' isn't ours, we don't own or control it. Us speaking English helps other countries that want to flog their wares here more than it helps us

Iwasfrozen

Sh1tbag OToole wrote: »

Haha you say it like they had a choice. Quite sure anyway, the 'asset' isn't ours, we don't own or control it. Us speaking English helps other countries that want to flog their wares here more than it helps us

Of course hey had a choice. They could have chosen to speak Irish in private, or pass it on to their children. They didn't and that could only have been a conscious choice.

We don't control the majority of our assets, we don't control the waves, or the wind or what materials are in our soil but we have control over them none the less, lack of control over an asset does not mean that asset isn't useful.

Also your claim that speaking english only helps other countries flog their wares here is patently false, we have benefited hugely from decades of FDI that wouldn't have received if we didn't speak english. Dublin is one of the financial centres of Europe, Largely though not primary because the locals speak english. On personal level we have access to American and English media, songs, books and other medium.

I the world had a language it would be English, English is the new Latin, the language of business, science and politics and we speak it as our native language. That's a huge advantage and honor.

Sh1tbag OToole

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Of course hey had a choice. They could have chosen to speak Irish in private, or pass it on to their children. They didn't and that could only have been a conscious choice.

We don't control the majority of our assets, we don't control the waves, or the wind or what materials are in our soil but we have control over them none the less, lack of control over an asset does not mean that asset isn't useful.

Also your claim that speaking english only helps other countries flog their wares here is patently false, we have benefited hugely from decades of FDI that wouldn't have received if we didn't speak english. Dublin is one of the financial centres of Europe, Largely though not primary because the locals speak english. On personal level we have access to American and English media, songs, books and other medium.

I the world had a language it would be English, English is the new Latin, the language of business, science and politics and we speak it as our native language. That's a huge advantage and honor.

They probably did, but a language doesn't really thrive when it's only being passed on in such a way. With the amount of suppression that went on it did well to last to the extent that it did. Unlike the natural phenomena you mentioned English is now controlled by outsiders. The US mass media have more say about how the language evolves than we do.

I never said it only helps other countries but it's definitely skewed in their favour. Our benefit from these foreign megacorps is much overstated. Yes there are lads who get jobs with the likes of Amazamazon who I just happened to be reading this delightful article about but most of the money is just passing through at best, or worse many companies are just here to milk the Irish market.

All this sh1te is shortlived anyway. Just like the housing boom most people don't want to hear about the end of the current tech boom but it won't last forever. Soon we'll have self-driving cars to help us commute to jobs that ain't there anymore because they've been replaced by PHP scripts.

American media is really mass produced tripe of the worst sort. Most of what makes its way over here anyway. People are better off holding onto their own culture, it's easier for them to get involved that way. Most European countries have a form of 'MTV Generation' who have done nothing but sit behind a telly soaking up bland mindless uniform foreign tripe. It gives us a very limited perspective on things, we have never been better informed about world events and news but we're getting increasingly clueless as to what's going on locally.

Iwasfrozen

Sh1tbag OToole wrote: »

They probably did, but a language doesn't really thrive when it's only being passed on in such a way. With the amount of suppression that went on it did well to last to the extent that it did. Unlike the natural phenomena you mentioned English is now controlled by outsiders. The US mass media have more say about how the language evolves than we do.

That climate was created by Irish people. Irish people encouraged their children to speak English, at home and at school. Children during this period were often beaten to discourage them from speaking Irish at home. This seems harsh but thank goodness they did it because we wouldn't speak English as our national language.

I never said it only helps other countries but it's definitely skewed in their favour. Our benefit from these foreign megacorps is much overstated. Yes there are lads who get jobs with the likes of Amazamazon who I just happened to be reading this delightful article about but most of the money is just passing through at best, or worse many companies are just here to milk the Irish market.

Do you believe it is an overstatement to say Ireland has benefited hugely from FDI? Is it unrealistic to say speaking Engish contributed to our ability to attract FDI?

That Dublin is a centre of European / world finance and speaking Engish contributed to our ability to develop a centre of European / world finance?

20,000 people are currently employed in Dublin in the funds industry, a recent report by pwc expects this number to grow to 30,000 by 2030. Do you believe our English language was irrelevant to this success?

All this sh1te is shortlived anyway. Just like the housing boom most people don't want to hear about the end of the current tech boom but it won't last forever. Soon we'll have self-driving cars to help us commute to jobs that ain't there anymore because they've been replaced by PHP scripts.

Booms and busts are a natural part of the business cycle.

American media is really mass produced tripe of the worst sort. Most of what makes its way over here anyway. People are better off holding onto their own culture, it's easier for them to get involved that way. Most European countries have a form of 'MTV Generation' who have done nothing but sit behind a telly soaking up bland mindless uniform foreign tripe. It gives us a very limited perspective on things, we have never been better informed about world events and news but we're getting increasingly clueless as to what's going on locally.

American media is a hell of a lot better than Irish media for the most part, you're coming across as a man who is afraid of progress.

Globalization is forcing the world closer due to a multitude of reasons. The same powers that forced tribes of individuals into countries and empires are now forcing divergent countries into a single entity. This is progress, languages like Irish will still exist in the academic sphere but are quickly dying as spoken languages.

Dan_Solo

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What's wrong with History? You really have some odd prejudices.

Why are you pretending I said there was something wrong with history? So you're saying we should learn every dead language because they are historical, or do you just have no point really so you're forced to lie about what I've said?

LordSutch

My kids school has wall to wall Irish all over the place, from the school entrance hall to the gymnasium to the corridors + every classroom in between is covered in signage 'as gaeilge'! everything on the walls is in Irish.

Its not even a gaelscoil, just a normal National School.

Funny thing is that none of the kids or parents actually speak Irish, (or at least if they do its within the privacy of their own homes)? because I have never witnessed anyone speaking Irish, apart from the teachers who welcome each and every pupil in Irish "Maj in mai" being the greeting

...so the kids are surrounded and steeped in Irish, like the school is some big simmering vat on the hob, presumably hoping that if the pupils are steeped enough in the Irish language then flavour will stick, for life.

The kids/parents still don't speak Irish though :cool:

Speedwell

Just joined the forum and I have a question.

I'm an middle-aged American immigrant (I moved here with my Irish-citizen husband about a year and a half ago) and I want to learn Irish. Every time I mention this to an Irish person, I get the raised-eyebrow question, "Why would you want to do that?" That's a good question. I have no Irish ancestry and I'm not religious and I don't have a political affiliation. So why do I want to do that? I'm going to be brutally honest here:

- This is Ireland, isn't it?
- My father was an immigrant to America, and he had to learn English. I was always taught that it is crucial to making a permanent home in a country to learn its language and history. My father believed this so strongly that he flatly refused to teach his children his native language or the history of his home country. I won't go that far, but I do believe that I should respect the Irish language while I assimilate.
- Because my father never taught me his own language or history, I feel impoverished and have a certain resentment toward him for it. I would feel enriched by expanding my cultural and linguistic repertoire.
- I'm a typical ignorant monoglot American. My childhood Spanish and French lessons stuck just long enough that I'm not actually stupid, but I want to learn another language like educated people do. Might as well be Irish since I'm here, eh.
- I am a musician and I want very much to learn Irish traditional music and to participate in sessions. If I can't speak (or sing in) Irish, I will be at a huge disadvantage. (By the way, I'm looking for an experienced bodhrán teacher now and a low whistle teacher later; I've posted in the appropriate forum about that.)
- I am helping a UK-based technology company start a branch office in Ireland, and for business reasons I think it might be useful to learn Irish.
- It just drives me crazy to see Irish everywhere and not understand it.

Your thoughts? Any advice for a beginner who is not finding the Internet resources very helpful (I need feedback from a live teacher)?

mickydoomsux

Speedwell wrote: »

Just joined the forum and I have a question.

I'm an middle-aged American immigrant (I moved here with my Irish-citizen husband about a year and a half ago) and I want to learn Irish. Every time I mention this to an Irish person, I get the raised-eyebrow question, "Why would you want to do that?" That's a good question. I have no Irish ancestry and I'm not religious and I don't have a political affiliation. So why do I want to do that? I'm going to be brutally honest here:

- This is Ireland, isn't it?
- My father was an immigrant to America, and he had to learn English. I was always taught that it is crucial to making a permanent home in a country to learn its language and history. My father believed this so strongly that he flatly refused to teach his children his native language or the history of his home country. I won't go that far, but I do believe that I should respect the Irish language while I assimilate.
- Because my father never taught me his own language or history, I feel impoverished and have a certain resentment toward him for it. I would feel enriched by expanding my cultural and linguistic repertoire.
- I'm a typical ignorant monoglot American. My childhood Spanish and French lessons stuck just long enough that I'm not actually stupid, but I want to learn another language like educated people do. Might as well be Irish since I'm here, eh.
- I am a musician and I want very much to learn Irish traditional music and to participate in sessions. If I can't speak (or sing in) Irish, I will be at a huge disadvantage. (By the way, I'm looking for an experienced bodhrán teacher now and a low whistle teacher later; I've posted in the appropriate forum about that.)
- I am helping a UK-based technology company start a branch office in Ireland, and for business reasons I think it might be useful to learn Irish.
- It just drives me crazy to see Irish everywhere and not understand it.

Your thoughts? Any advice for a beginner who is not finding the Internet resources very helpful (I need feedback from a live teacher)?

Honestly, you learning Irish will be about as useful as you not bothering to learn Irish.

It's an irrelevance to the country at this stage.

The only reason you see any evidence of it around you in your day to day life is because of legislation that forces it's continued existence that really should be gotten rid of. It will be useless to you for your work.

Speedwell

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Honestly, you learning Irish will be about as useful as you not bothering to learn Irish.

It's an irrelevance to the country at this stage.

The only reason you see any evidence of it around you in your day to day life is because of legislation that forces it's continued existence that really should be gotten rid of. It will be useless to you for your work.

Yeah, I learned a smattering of Latin at university because I was studying to become a choir conductor and also wanted to read historical documents in their original language. I didn't get far before I had to drop out due to family emergencies. But I guess I'm just that stubborn kind of person.

Seriously, I get that "it's useless" a lot. It makes me very uncomfortable, like I would be if I was dating a guy and every time I asked him what he wanted for dinner, he always said, "I don't care so long as it fills a hole". I would conclude the guy just considered food a nuisance and thinking about it a bother, and perhaps had a past that included a lot of bad experiences about food or thinking about it. My father had an oil painting of a beautiful gypsy violinist that his parents smuggled out of Hungary, and it always occupied a place of honor in the sitting room, but every time an American visitor admired it, he made a point of saying we had absolutely no gypsy relations and that the American was not to assume that just because he was Hungarian that he admired or felt anything in common with "that sort of thing".

I don't want to ruffle any feathers, but is that more or less how Ireland thinks of the Irish language? Like part of an uncomfortable and irrelevant cultural past of inferiority that is best forgotten? And if so, why inferiority?

mickydoomsux

Speedwell wrote: »

I don't want to ruffle any feathers, but is that more or less how Ireland thinks of the Irish language? Like part of an uncomfortable and irrelevant cultural past that is best forgotten?

It's not even that. Everyone speaks English. there isn't one person in the entire nation that can only speak Irish.

It's just obsolete. Useless. People don't use it because it's pointless.

It would be like a computer programmer exclusively using COBOL.

Dan_Solo

Sure, some people hate Irish, mainly because they were forced to learn it for pretty much no reason whatsoever.
They should really be hating the being forced bit though rather than Irish itself. We have a common language that serves us perfectly well so anything further should be optional basically.

Berserker

Speedwell wrote: »

- I am a musician and I want very much to learn Irish traditional music and to participate in sessions.

Not needed in any shape or form. I know a few people who embrace that style of music and they can't speak the language.

Speedwell wrote: »

- I am helping a UK-based technology company start a branch office in Ireland, and for business reasons I think it might be useful to learn Irish.

Irish is zero use to you in this context. English is the language of business in this country.

Speedwell wrote: »

- It just drives me crazy to see Irish everywhere and not understand it.

Don't let it bother you. The English translation is right below or beside it. We just need a government in power with the will to change the legislation that forces the use of Irish on signs.

Speedwell

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Sure, some people hate Irish, mainly because they were forced to learn it for pretty much no reason whatsoever.
They should really be hating the being forced bit though rather than Irish itself. We have a common language that serves us perfectly well so anything further should be optional basically.

Yeah, well, it's not like I'm considering giving up English like my father gave up his native language. I've taught training classes around the world, and the only place I had trouble using English was in Buenos Aires, where they would have mostly understood me without the interpreter anyway. So I don't have any real reason to learn Irish, sure, I understand that, it's not as though my husband's mother doesn't speak English or anything like that. But I just have a lot of trouble understanding what feels to me like animosity in Ireland toward Irish.

Please pardon my American cultural ignorance. I come from a city that is very, very multicultural and it would be shocking to hear anyone there say some of the things I hear Irish people say about their language. But I think I'm starting to get the picture. Is it actually offensive for me to go around saying I want to learn it?

mickydoomsux

Speedwell wrote: »

But I just have a lot of trouble understanding what feels to me like animosity in Ireland toward Irish.

Personally i feel it is a waste of time and resources in schools to teach a mandatory subject that is utterly useless. You may as well be teaching children how to make chocolate teapots as teaching them Irish.

Then there is the millions wasted by the government on grants to Gaeltacht areas to appease a tiny minority who are profiting out of these areas existing. And the millions wasted on translating/printing every official government document into Irish for another tiny minority who can read English anyway and are just being awkward to prove some deluded point.

All this money is wasted on the pointless garbage while police stations are closing down and people are literally dying on trolleys in the hallways of our public hospitals because of funding shortfalls.