The Irish language is failing.

GreaseGunner

mickydoomsux wrote: »

All this money is wasted on the pointless garbage while police stations are closing down and people are literally dying on trolleys in the hallways of our public hospitals because of funding shortfalls.

Ah here. Granted it's obsolete and has fallen completely out of use, but it never was and never will be pointless garbage.

I do agree that given the state of the country there is mad amounts of money being thrown at it, which could be better spent elsewhere. If there was less spent in better ways then it might make a positive difference.

Iwasfrozen

Speedwell wrote: »

I don't want to ruffle any feathers, but is that more or less how Ireland thinks of the Irish language? Like part of an uncomfortable and irrelevant cultural past of inferiority that is best forgotten? And if so, why inferiority?

It's not about any inferiority complex the Irish language is genuinely useless. Any time you see Irish in public the English translation will be right beside it, the language has absolutely no use in business and even at Irish traditional music settings if you start to sing in Irish 90 - 95% of the audience won't understand you.

I commend you for wanting to speak another language but might I suggest French?

Speedwell wrote: »

But I think I'm starting to get the picture. Is it actually offensive for me to go around saying I want to learn it?

Not offensive, more bewildering.

Shep_Dog

Speedwell wrote: »

Please pardon my American cultural ignorance. I come from a city that is very, very multicultural and it would be shocking to hear anyone there say some of the things I hear Irish people say about their language. But I think I'm starting to get the picture. Is it actually offensive for me to go around saying I want to learn it?

It's not offensive to say you want to learn Irish just odd. People that hear you say that would be reminded of how they were forced to speak Irish themsleves and how a shaming system was used to put down those who were not enthuiastic.

Learning Irish here would be equivalent to learning one of the native American languages. A nice hobby, but not needed for work orvnormal life. Your father chose English, not native American because English was the common, functional, day to day, language. It is the same here.

Berserker

Speedwell wrote: »

I don't want to ruffle any feathers, but is that more or less how Ireland thinks of the Irish language? Like part of an uncomfortable and irrelevant cultural past of inferiority that is best forgotten? And if so, why inferiority?

My feathers are unruffled. I don't really get a sense of inferiority about it, to be honest. As Iwasfrozen said, the dismissive attitude that people have towards it is due to the fact that it is irrelevant for a huge majority of the population. I too would urge you to chose another European language. French is a beautiful language and there are some wonderful French schools about, particularly in Dublin city centre.

Speedwell wrote: »

Is it actually offensive for me to go around saying I want to learn it?

No, it is not offensive but people will think that it is a bit strange.

Speedwell

Thanks, everyone. I'm grateful for your candor and your suggestions.

InTheTrees

Speedwell wrote: »

Thanks, everyone. I'm grateful for your candor and your suggestions.

I'm Irish but educated abroad so I never learned any of the language and I have to say I feel a little deprived! I would love to know the basics.

But I also understand how it must have been to have been forced to learn it, and the feeling that you're missing out on more valuable subjects because of that.

I dont really see what can be done. I think its very sad, its a beautiful language.

Speedwell

Speedwell wrote: »

Seriously, I get that "it's useless" a lot. It makes me very uncomfortable.... I don't want to ruffle any feathers, but is that more or less how Ireland thinks of the Irish language? Like part of an uncomfortable and irrelevant cultural past of inferiority that is best forgotten? And if so, why inferiority?

Never mind them. The same few posters - all somewhere on the far right of the political spectrum around the labels "libertarian" and "utilitarian" - are in every discussion about Irish, expressing their hatred for it, wishing for its death and trying to twist everything to fit their prejudices. 'Hate' and 'death' are invariably the dominant themes. It's the long-established kicking target of our cultural fascists, the Angloban, who want to make Ireland as culturally English as Sussex and get very upset at the mere sight of Irish in Ireland. I mean really, really upset. It's all very cultural cringe indeed, as you rightly sense already. A foreigner coming on expressing a genuine, bias-free interest in Irish drives them crazy. All those walls of prejudice and hatred need to be defended against, ironically, the "ignorant" foreigner.

On the other hand, the people who love and are open to Irish, being invariably a more cultured and educated sort, tend to be wise enough to avoid the hate threads that these few people generate so they stay out of these Orwellian minutes of hate and go to a positive thread, read a book, play music or do something more productive with their energies. (Hint: look at the high number of posts the Irish haters tend to have.)


More constructively, there is a vibrant Irish-speaking community in Dublin if you'd like to seek it out. There is a broad network of support in terms of clubs, classes, coffee mornings, traditional singing nights, GAA culture nights and the like. Seeing as you're into the music, I know for certain that some of the courses in Comhaltas out in Monkstown are through the Irish - I did the Traditional Singing one through it years back. Doing a course in Gaelchultúr, Gael Linn or Conradh na Gaeilge will unlock the door to that world. You could also try one of the Dublin Meetups, or even visit the Gaeilge forum here. This newsletter is worth bookmarking as it lists a wide variety of events, coffee mornings, conversation groups, etc through Irish around the city.

Bain sult as!

Speedwell

Deleted User wrote: »

More constructively...

Constructively, indeed. That's very positive. I like positive

LordSutch

PEIG.

Iwasfrozen

Speedwell wrote: »

Constructively, indeed. That's very positive. I like positive

I wouldn't say he's being very positive, to accuse posters including myself who have tried to give you an accurate understanding of the view of the Irish language within Ireland as being members of the "far right", "hating Irish" or somehow intellectually interior is a falsehood and quite a nasty comment. I take offence at these comments and don't think they are appropriate.

But don't get me wrong, there is a small minority of people who enjoy the hobby as a past time and if you are interested in learning the language hooking up with this clique would be an excellent idea but it's not an inaccurate description to refer to this as a "niche" interest within Irish society.

inocybe

LordSutch wrote: »

PEIG.

Yes, if you truly want to experience Irish like an Irish person, you should find yourself an angry, bitter teacher who will set you work from the school curriculum. Shaming you in front of the class when you make mistakes is part of the experience too. Have fun

Paramite Pie

LordSutch wrote: »

PEIG.

Who's this Peig that everyone's talking about??

I'm 28 years old, born in '87 and went to school in Galway. Yet in every Irish language thread this 'Peig' comes up.

I'm not that far off being 30, and if I don't know who this is then it's probably been irrelevant for a very long time. I really doubt that students going to school now would know either. Irish is not taught like it used to be, there's no beatings and no Peig. Get over it.

Now let's focus on what can be done for the younger generation going to school now.

DyldeBrill

LordSutch wrote: »

PEIG.

I get it...horrible horrible read, but by all means have a look at some of the better books that the Irish language has to offer. Dúnmharú ar an Dart was honestly my favourite book in school. The story line was daring and was far from the drab, mundane read that Peig is.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

But don't get me wrong, there is a small minority of people who enjoy the hobby as a past time.

It is far more than a hobby or a past time. People use it regularly on a day to day basis may it be socially or through business. To point it out as being a mere hobby is false.

@Speedwell If you are looking to learn Irish then there are many places you can go to learn. If you visit the Conradh na Gaeilge website, there are classes available for all levels. There are also groups who meet in O'Briens coffee shop on Harcourt St for an easy going chat in Irish. Nothing too strenuous whatsoever.

Shep_Dog

Deleted User wrote: »

cultural fascists, the Angloban, who want to make Ireland as culturally English as Sussex and get very upset at the mere sight of Irish in Ireland.

So Sky Sports, the English language, Tesco, electricity, cars and foreign food are all imposed on an unwilling population by the 'Angloban'?

Shep_Dog

DyldeBrill wrote: »

@Speedwell If you are looking to learn Irish then there are many places you can go to learn. If you visit the Conradh na Gaeilge website, there are classes available for all levels.

But be aware that Conradh na Gaeilge is a radical group whose main aim is 'To reinstate Irish as common tongue of Ireland'.

PopePalpatine

The Gaeliban are far worse. They're usually the same people who bitch about non-Catholics pointing out the difficulty of finding a school for their kids.

osarusan

Deleted User wrote: »

On the other hand, the people who love and are open to Irish, being invariably a more cultured and educated sort, tend to be wise enough to avoid the hate threads that these few people generate so they stay out of these Orwellian minutes of hate and go to a positive thread, read a book, play music or do something more productive with their energies. (Hint: look at the high number of posts the Irish haters tend to have.)

:pac:

DyldeBrill

Shep_Dog wrote: »

But be aware that Conradh na Gaeilge is a radical group whose main aim is 'To reinstate Irish as common tongue of Ireland'.

We're talking here of a beginners class in a relaxed environment to learn the Irish language for god sake, not a brainwashing session to hate the English language. There are plenty of classes that would be of use. A person who wants to learn the language isn't suddenly going to hate English as a result to these classes.

Dan_Solo

Deleted User wrote: »

our cultural fascists, the Angloban,

That's priceless.
Let me guess, people like yourself who want to force people to learn Irish, that they then refuse to use ever again in their lives, aren't "cultural fascists" I suppose?
Hilarious stuff.

Dan_Solo

Deleted User wrote: »

On the other hand, the people who love and are open to Irish, being invariably a more cultured and educated sort, tend to be wise enough to avoid the hate threads that these few people generate

So by your own proclamation you either don't love Irish or you're not wise... your choice there mate.

umop apisdn

Paramite Pie wrote: »

Who's this Peig that everyone's talking about??

I'm 28 years old, born in '87 and went to school in Galway. Yet in every Irish language thread this 'Peig' comes up.

I'm not that far off being 30, and if I don't know who this is then it's probably been irrelevant for a very long time. I really doubt that students going to school now would know either. Irish is not taught like it used to be, there's no beatings and no Peig. Get over it.

Now let's focus on what can be done for the younger generation going to school now.

Count yourself lucky for life. It was a compulsory Irish book that had to be force learned by every secondary school student in Ireland for generations and was the most depressing, demoralising book imaginable to be forced on kids starting out in life. It started off with "I'm old woman now with one foot in the grave and another on a bar of soap" and it got more and more depressing with every page. I think the government loved it because thousands wanted to emigrate and never come back after reading it. I'd say that book single handily caused a huge hatred of the Irish language, but made someone with the right connections a pretty penny indeed.

LordSutch

Paramite Pie wrote: »

Who's this Peig that everyone's talking about??

For me Irish classes (including Peig) = hand out "whack"! . . . . say it again, hand out "whack"! ...and so on for five misersble and horrific years, till I moved to another school which was nearly as bad, (but without the corporal punishment). The level of hate towards the language (teaching of) languishes within me to this day, not on the surface, but deep in the back of my mind where I can still remember that baste** who whacked us with that hard meter stick :mad:

I'm sure the blasket islands are great, but they will forever be tarnished 'in my head' by that boring, dusty, smoky old nag Peig, who recalled those stories as she chewed on a bit of auld turf while smoking a pipe, in a mud hut :mad:

Years wasted.

Shep_Dog

DyldeBrill wrote: »

We're talking here of a beginners class in a relaxed environment to learn the Irish language for god sake, not a brainwashing session to hate the English language. A person who wants to learn the language isn't suddenly going to hate English as a result to these classes.

Nobody mentioned 'hating English', so let's put that 'straw-man' argument aside.

The objective of Conradh is to replace English with Irish. It has no other goal in its constitution. Anyone who supports Conradh or its classes is signing up for that radical goal.

Aineoil

Chacun à son goût mar a dearfa.

Dughorm

Deleted User wrote: »

That's a very Irish question, and one inspired by the Irish language. When I was re-learning Irish, I was slightly bemused but tickled when someone asked me "cé leatsa?" as a way of asking who my family were.

The Irish language has an influence on the way we speak and the way we think - even when we're doing so in English, which is why we speak that language differently to the British.

Love this reply - thanks Ulysses

Dughorm

Speedwell wrote: »

Just joined the forum and I have a question.

I'm an middle-aged American immigrant (I moved here with my Irish-citizen husband about a year and a half ago) and I want to learn Irish. Every time I mention this to an Irish person, I get the raised-eyebrow question, "Why would you want to do that?" That's a good question. I have no Irish ancestry and I'm not religious and I don't have a political affiliation. So why do I want to do that? I'm going to be brutally honest here:

- This is Ireland, isn't it?
- My father was an immigrant to America, and he had to learn English. I was always taught that it is crucial to making a permanent home in a country to learn its language and history. My father believed this so strongly that he flatly refused to teach his children his native language or the history of his home country. I won't go that far, but I do believe that I should respect the Irish language while I assimilate.
- Because my father never taught me his own language or history, I feel impoverished and have a certain resentment toward him for it. I would feel enriched by expanding my cultural and linguistic repertoire.
- I'm a typical ignorant monoglot American. My childhood Spanish and French lessons stuck just long enough that I'm not actually stupid, but I want to learn another language like educated people do. Might as well be Irish since I'm here, eh.
- I am a musician and I want very much to learn Irish traditional music and to participate in sessions. If I can't speak (or sing in) Irish, I will be at a huge disadvantage. (By the way, I'm looking for an experienced bodhrán teacher now and a low whistle teacher later; I've posted in the appropriate forum about that.)
- I am helping a UK-based technology company start a branch office in Ireland, and for business reasons I think it might be useful to learn Irish.
- It just drives me crazy to see Irish everywhere and not understand it.

Your thoughts? Any advice for a beginner who is not finding the Internet resources very helpful (I need feedback from a live teacher)?

How refreshing! I hope you're enjoying living here and the Irish culture around you. Please be reassured that the sometimes ridiculous and emotionally charged anti-Irish rhetoric in this thread is not common-place - and it is certainly not offensive to seek to immerse yourself into the language and traditions of the island!

There is a great deal of apathy though in the general population about Irish, (pragmatism certainly holds sway here!) which will explain those raised eyebrows you're getting but don't let that hold you back! There are plenty of interested people out there who will be glad to share their heritage with you

Dughorm

Shep_Dog wrote: »

Anyone who supports Conradh or its classes is signing up for that radical goal.

Really? How subversive! You should write a strongly worded letter to a national newspaper publicising this...:rolleyes:

PopePalpatine

I read somewhere - probably here on Boards - that Peig was heavily edited, maybe by Peig's nephew (as she was illiterate) to be more authentically conservative or something.

whisky_galore

PopePalpatine wrote: »

I read somewhere - probably here on Boards - that Peig was heavily edited, maybe by Peig's nephew (as she was illiterate) to be more authentically conservative or something.

I would hazard a guess that it may have been edited to make it suitable for reading by schoolchildren. Maybe it had references to farm animals getting it on or something.

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

and it is certainly not offensive to seek to immerse yourself into the language and traditions of the island!

But he's already fluent in the language of the island...

Sh1tbag OToole

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

That climate was created by Irish people. Irish people encouraged their children to speak English, at home and at school. Children during this period were often beaten to discourage them from speaking Irish at home. This seems harsh but thank goodness they did it because we wouldn't speak English as our national language.


Do you believe it is an overstatement to say Ireland has benefited hugely from FDI? Is it unrealistic to say speaking Engish contributed to our ability to attract FDI?

That Dublin is a centre of European / world finance and speaking Engish contributed to our ability to develop a centre of European / world finance?

20,000 people are currently employed in Dublin in the funds industry, a recent report by pwc expects this number to grow to 30,000 by 2030. Do you believe our English language was irrelevant to this success?


Booms and busts are a natural part of the business cycle.


American media is a hell of a lot better than Irish media for the most part, you're coming across as a man who is afraid of progress.

Globalization is forcing the world closer due to a multitude of reasons. The same powers that forced tribes of individuals into countries and empires are now forcing divergent countries into a single entity. This is progress, languages like Irish will still exist in the academic sphere but are quickly dying as spoken languages.

Beating children for speaking Irish at home surely wasn't common. The FDI brings good and bad, and tbh I don't think they care too much about us speaking English. They can bring in speakers of whatever language they want from the EU and often do. Places like Google are filled to the brim with foreigners they drafted in or moved here already. For the most part big companies care about low tax and access to the EU market, maybe cheap labour as well. An awful amount have outsourced to Eastern Europe once wages went up here.

This isn't progress, we are headed down a certain path and I'm not sure if it's a good one. Letting a language and the associated culture die, then replacing it with something new from abroad isn't reversible. Your single entity doesn't seem like a happy place to me, but you don't seem to mind rushing into it because you so happen to like the stuff that comes out of America. I suppose we just have different taste.

I must admit I used to hate Irish in school, actually got exempted for the leaving cert but the way they thought it was terrible. One teacher was so disinterested she'd spend the whole class talking about coronation street. Other ones tried to bate it in to me, as was a common occurrence back in the day, but the bitterness didn't stick with me life long as it seems to have done with a lot of people here

Speedwell

Speedwell wrote: »

Your thoughts? Any advice for a beginner who is not finding the Internet resources very helpful (I need feedback from a live teacher)?

1. Irish isn't useful, but if usefulness is your only criterion for learning something then you can add Irish to a list of many thousands of other things not to bother with.

2. Your life will be better if you learn a bit of the language, as will your understanding of Ireland and the Irish. But of course, you might also find that your life will be better if you learn something else instead. Isn't that the way of things?

3. Don't pay any heed to the naysayers. If they could engage in the language that's what they'd be doing instead of making excuses for their inability. If you want advice, logic suggests you should seek it from people with knowledge rather than people without it.

4. If you'd really like to have a go at learning something of a very beautiful language, and you're prepared to invest some time and energy into that, drop me a line by PM and I'll see if I can offer you any helpful suggestions.

InTheTrees

InTheTrees wrote: »

But I also understand how it must have been to have been forced to learn it...

I was also forced to learn English. Weren't you? Weren't most people "forced" to learn a language (or two) by the grown-ups when they were kids?

InTheTrees wrote: »

I dont really see what can be done. I think its very sad, its a beautiful language.

If you really believe the second sentence then the answer to the first is easy-peasy. Learn a bit and speak a bit. I have conversed in Irish with people, not only from here, but from the USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Singapore, Belgium, Bulgaria, Germany, Italy, the Czech Republic, France, England, Scotland and Wales.

Carlos Orange

Deleted User wrote: »

I was also forced to learn English. Weren't you? Weren't most people "forced" to learn a language (or two) by the grown-ups when they were kids?

Most people in Ireland picked up English as the native language of their parents.

psinno

psinno wrote: »

Most people in Ireland picked up English as the native language of their parents.

Why weren't they given a choice? Isn't that "forcing" a language on them?

What about the stupid Norwegians, and Swedes, and Danes, who not only "force" their own language on their kids, but also "force" the other Scandinavian languages on them, not to mention English? Isn't that forcing kids even worse than the Irish do?

Get off the stage and stop making excuses. :cool:

Carlos Orange

Deleted User wrote: »

What about the stupid Norwegians, and Swedes, and Danes, who not only "force" their own language on their kids, but also "force" the other Scandinavian languages on them, not to mention English? Isn't that forcing kids even worse than the Irish do?

The Norwegians are pretty progressive people , they don't insist you aren't really Norwegian unless you speak Sami.

psinno

psinno wrote: »

The Norwegians are pretty progressive people , they don't insist you aren't really Norwegian unless you speak Sami.

Thanks for the off topic comment. Now what about that awful business of "forcing" kids all over Scandinavia to learn more than one Scandinavian language, and probably English as well?

I presume that's left the world with generations of Swedes, Danes and Norwegians with a burning hatred for all other Scandinavian languages, not to mention English?

Yep. Thought not. :rolleyes:

Carlos Orange

Deleted User wrote: »

Thanks for the off topic comment. Now what about that awful business of "forcing" kids all over Scandinavia to learn more than one Scandinavian language, and probably English as well?

I presume that's left the world with generations of Swedes, Danes and Norwegians with a burning hatred for all other Scandinavian languages, not to mention English?

Yep. Thought not. :rolleyes:

Perhaps because I'm not aware of Norwegians evaluating peoples norwegianishness by their ability to speak Danish or English where as there is a constant undercurrent of that whenever the Irish language is discussed. Also they probably don't have Danish as a requirement for so many government jobs and aren't trying to replace Norwegian as the everyday language of the country. Slight differences.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Deleted User wrote: »

Thanks for the off topic comment. Now what about that awful business of "forcing" kids all over Scandinavia to learn more than one Scandinavian language, and probably English as well?

I presume that's left the world with generations of Swedes, Danes and Norwegians with a burning hatred for all other Scandinavian languages, not to mention English?

Yep. Thought not. :rolleyes:

They don't. The Scadanavian langauges (with the exception of Finnish) are similiar enough to the point that they don't need to. English is taught as a nessecary skill to progress in the world.

The Danes are thinking of escalating English to an official langauge alongside Danish.

It;s a moot point though, because English is not the mother tongue in Scandanvia.

Reiver

psinno wrote: »

The Norwegians are pretty progressive people , they don't insist you aren't really Norwegian unless you speak Sami.

That's because the Sami are entirely a different people, not just confined to Norway. Their language reflects their origin, beyond the Urals.

Carlos Orange

Reiver wrote: »

That's because the Sami are entirely a different people, not just confined to Norway. Their language reflects their origin, beyond the Urals.

A minority language with an origin outside the country that is spoken by people in a geographic area that encompasses more than one country. How unlike Irish.

LordSutch

Deleted User wrote: »

Thanks for the off topic comment. Now what about that awful business of "forcing" kids all over Scandinavia to learn more than one Scandinavian language, and probably English as well?

I presume that's left the world with generations of Swedes, Danes and Norwegians with a burning hatred for all other Scandinavian languages, not to mention English?

Yep. Thought not. :rolleyes:

The reality is that if you visit a Scandinavian country you will near the masses speaking Norwegian, Swedish, or Danish (as well as English), which is very different to Ireland and our relationship with the Irish language, as you well know . . .

Irish is not spoken by the masses here, indeed if you walk down any Irish town or City you will be very hard pressed to even hear one word uttered in the Irish language.

Irish is not our spoken language, this despite the newly formed state (post 1922) introducing mandatory Irish lessons for all Irish children, in a futile attempt to make the whole population speak Irish. So out went Shakespeare & Science and in came the teaching of Irish (with an iron rod) well actually a meter stick, a three foot long cane, a ruler or a fist, so that Irish could be beaten into each and every pupil. < Norway & Sweden are/were not like this.

So here we are eighty or ninety years after compulsory Irish was introduced, and what do we have for it?

I'll leave that question hanging there for others to answer.

Speedwell

LordSutch wrote: »

Irish is not our spoken language, this despite the newly formed state (post 1922) introducing mandatory Irish lessons for all Irish children, in a futile attempt to make the whole population speak Irish. So out went Shakespeare & Science and in came the teaching of Irish (with an iron rod) well actually a meter stick, a three foot long cane, a ruler or a fist, so that Irish could be beaten into each and every pupil.

(suppresses the urge to say something unladylike)

I just want to mention something I know from being a teenager in the US.

When I was that age, I lived in an area that was minority Cherokee. If you stopped an average person on the street and asked how much Cherokee ancestry they had (apropos of nothing, I have none myself), a surprising number would identify as "part Cherokee" and claim to be proud of their heritage. How many of them actually spoke or wrote Tsalagi Gawonihisdi? Well, that's another question.

A Cherokee Nation does exist; I capitalize it because it's an official name of an organization, a revival of the tribe that was almost completely wiped out. It currently has about three times as many members as the population of the Gaeltacht. It has self-governance, an expanding robust tribal economy, citizenship and immigration laws (along with a significant "migrant problem" of people who don't technically qualify for citizenship), an outreach program for Cherokee people who are outside the tribal jurisdiction, a huge number of children leaving to seek employment outside the tribal boundaries, and, most relevantly, a strong and growing push to use Tsalagi as the official language of government, business, and culture. However, a lot of what I hear "assimilated" Cherokee say about their language is echoing in my ears today.

Why do so few Cherokee (~17% of the tribe, along with many others who identify as Cherokee but don't qualify for tribal membership) speak Tsalagi today? Well, we have the missionary schools to blame for that. Young Cherokee were forbidden to speak their tribal language at school on pain of actual torture (no nun was ever as inventive as an Oklahoma schoolteacher). They were forbidden to speak their language or adopt their native cultural ways by laws passed in the 1800s. Frightened parents forbade the use of Tsalagi at home. The courts made it illegal to testify in any language but English. It took Sequoyah in 1821 to even formulate a written language in which the tribe could record their cultural documents and around which the tribe could rally. Years later tribe members were given dual US citizenship by treaty, though it took well into the 20th century for the tribe to gain recognition as a sovereign entity.

Currently the schools in Cherokee areas do teach Tsalagi, and tribe members do pass it down to their children at home as a native language. Tsalagi is the official tribal language. It appears alongside English on official documents and signs. The Cherokee government provide translation services and have invested heavily in immersion learning programs. It is absolutely true that many Cherokee people deride these efforts as isolationist and irrelevant to living in the modern US economy. Of course, it's also true that many Cherokee see tribal status itself that way and they think that it is harmful to resist assimilation. Some of them think that the time spent learning Cherokee could be more profitably spent learning things that make the tribe's young people more economically competitive.

The thing is, few people who identify as Cherokee-heritage are actually against the effort to preserve their tribal language and culture. There do not seem to be abusive teachers beating the language into them like the abusive missionary teachers who used to (and occasionally still) beat the language out of them. I know that religion played a huge role in depriving Cherokee people of their heritage and culture. I know a lot of appropriators who adopt what they think of as "American Indian" beliefs and religious practices, but I also know tribe members who add what they consider to be tribal religion to their own worldviews along with other aspects of the culture. In any event, these days there is no widespread effort to "forget", even among assimilated people. Though the tribe members may well be surprised that non-Cherokee people might want to speak and read Tsalagi, and might rightfully question their motives for doing so, once the non-Cherokee proves that they have bona fide ties to the tribe and to its culture, few would discourage them from learning. In fact, the ones who would be the most discouraging would be those who think that "outsiders" should not be allowed to participate at all.

In too many cases of cultural annihilation in the past few centuries, missionaries and religion (whether the Bible, the Koran, or the Vedas) have been most heavily involved. I am convinced that the blame needs to be placed at their feet for the evident distress that so many people feel at reclaiming their rightful national heritage and identity. When you're taught that your very identity is sinful and expressing it has unpleasant consequences now and hereafter, naturally you will discourage your children and your friends from wanting to adopt it. I know that the people who are discouraging me from learning Irish mean well. They've unconsciously absorbed their parents' and grandparents' fears. It's as though they're blaming Irish culture and national identity itself, instead of the religious and political forces that have tried to crush it, for the fact that it now needs to be revived.

I could understand if Irish people told me to give up because "you're not Irish". Fair cop, I'm not Irish, even though I live in Ireland, married into an Irish family, and want to become a citizen once I qualify. But I just can't understand "eh, who cares, the Irish themselves don't, so why bother at all".

(As always, thank you for your sincere efforts to help me understand. I don't have an agenda, other than a humanist one of people being at peace with themselves and the world they live in. Oh, and the fact that I feel ignorant not knowing how to pronounce every damn street sign.)

Reiver

psinno wrote: »

A minority language with an origin outside the country that is spoken by people in a geographic area that encompasses more than one country. How unlike Irish.

Well considering that Sami was never the majority language of Norway, I fail to see your point.

Carlos Orange

Speedwell wrote: »

When you're taught that your very identity is sinful and expressing it has unpleasant consequences now and hereafter, naturally you will discourage your children and your friends from wanting to adopt it.

That is a whole load of text so I'll try to give it a proper read latter on but this bit stuck out. Lots of Irish people have unhealthy neurosis about their place in the world and language feeds into that. When you have friends (drunkenly and with complete sincerity) tell you about the shame they feel for supporting an English Premier League club you can tell everything isn't right in the countries head.

LordSutch

LordSutch wrote: »

Irish is not our...

"Our" indeed.

You're a member of the Royal British Legion and the Orange Order? Or just the RBL? You're definitely on record many times as describing the Irish struggle for independence as "terrorism" - like this gem: "the 1916 rising was a terrorist operation" - and the British Empire as laudable and, if I recall, you're one of the biggest cheerleaders for their Empire every time the annual two-month long poppy war glorifications get going. You also never miss an opportunity to mention your hatred for, well, anything Irish and get upset when people don't say "British Isles" or even when you cannot see the Union Jack flying from Irish ports. You compose posts telling the Irish to "Be British, be proud", as you are of your "Unionist/British" identity.

It all sounds just so, well, desperate.

Carlos Orange

Deleted User wrote: »

"Our" indeed.

You're a member of the Royal British Legion and the Orange Order? Or just the RBL? You're definitely on record many times as describing the Irish struggle for independence as "terrorism" - like this gem: "the 1916 rising was a terrorist operation" - and the British Empire as laudable and, if I recall, you're one of the biggest cheerleaders for their Empire every time the annual two-month long poppy war glorifications get going. You also never miss an opportunity to mention your hatred for, well, anything Irish and get upset when people don't say "British Isles" or even when you cannot see the Union Jack flying from Irish ports. You compose posts telling the Irish to "Be British, be proud", as you are of your "Unionist/British" identity.

It all sounds just so, well, desperate.

Next thing you will be saying he isn't even a catholic.

psinno

psinno wrote: »

Next thing you will be saying he isn't even a catholic.

Ah, so opposing bigoted jingoistic British imperialism is now equivalent to opposing Protestantism? You're letting the mask slip. I bet you really feel betrayed by those Protestant Irish republicans.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Deleted User wrote: »

Ah, so opposing bigoted jingoistic British imperialism is now equivalent to opposing Protestantism? You're letting the mask slip. I bet you really feel betrayed by those Protestant Irish republicans.

You don't seem to know what bigotry or jingoism is. Stating that your heritage in British or Unionist or whatever doesn't even come close.

But back on topic: you wanted people to be connected with their heritage, he's connected with his heritage. WHat's the problem?

Many people feel the same way about the Irish langauge and have a solid Irish heritage. Some of them even speak Irish fluently and feel the same way.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

You don't seem to know what bigotry or jingoism is. Stating that your heritage in British or Unionist or whatever doesn't even come close.

You don't seem to be able to read. Stating that the Irish who fought for Irish independence are terrorists while people who fought for the British Empire are heroes is bigotry and jingoism when it comes from somebody who incessantly lauds his "Britishness".