The Irish language is failing.

Iwasfrozen

Dughorm wrote: »

That was free legal advice....

Why do you fear optional Irish? Do you think that will kill the language?

Dughorm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Why do you fear optional Irish? Do you think that will kill the language?

I don't think it is reasonable for Irish to be optional and English to be mandatory as the syllabi currently stand. Being consistent - having an 'all optional' stance is reasonable!

LordSutch

Dughorm wrote: »

The language has been in decline for a few hundred years - you must agree?!

Yes I agree.

Dughorm wrote: »

But that's not the point, there have been incremental improvements, such as gaelscoileanna, retirement of Peig, 40%+ Oral Irish exam - you must agree?!

Yes I agree.

Dughorm wrote: »

Loads of things -
Junior Cert Oral Irish Exam
Additional optional subject for literature and poetry "celtic studies"
Primary school 'turas scoile' to the Gaeltacht
Gaeltacht immersion trips in non-exam years
Continuous assessment - community expression of Irish etc...

I could go on.... but I think the 40%+ Oral Irish should be given a chance to bed down - it certainly puts those lazy "dead-language" notes-only Irish teachers on the back foot!

Yes indeed, but dare I say, Tinkering, tinkering, and more tinkering with some new variations on the same old compulsory theme!

What you're suggesting there just sounds to sluggish and presumptuous to me, specifically the Gaeltacht immersion trips for children! How many parents do you think would subscribe to that?

And then what about the community expression in Irish, how would that work? OK the continuous assessment is no harm, but its hardly going to help ignite the language back into life . . .

The only thing that I can see having an effect on injecting some much needed life blood into the veins of the Irish language are the many Gaelscoils that keep popping up around the country. But even these Irish speaking schools are small fry, in the grand scheme of things IMO.

Which leaves something that's been mooted many times, but never tried, which takes me back to my previous post #1855.

To be honest I don't really disagree with what you say, its just that I there still seems to be a piece of the jigsaw missing, like a really big piece that's been missing for several generations, when people didn't need to be pushed/ coeresed into speaking the Irish language.

If students want to learn Irish then that's great, but I think it does the language no favours at all to have everybody forced to do something that is currently a "niche language" in a country that speaks English as our 1st language.

So Goodnight 4now.

PS: really glad the Empire/Rising folk have buggered off for the last few pages :-)

The Randy Riverbeast

Dan_Solo wrote: »

The thing is this is one of the central pillars of the pro-compulsory Irish brigade argument: that Irish people really really really want to speak Irish all the time but it was never taught to them properly.
The simple fact that nobody wants to speak Irish that is staring them in the face can never once be admitted is true.

I think there are plenty who would like to speak Irish, they are just not willing to put in the effort to learn it. They would rather just keep it compulsory in school because we all see how well that system produces fluent speakers.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Dughorm wrote: »

Adequate as a foundation for a broad liberal arts education - students also have the flexibility to pursue other courses in business, the sciences, arts etc... I think it's a fair mix.

The exam mill approach doesn't help Irish flourish, neither does it enhance our appreciation of literature and poetry in English in my opinion.

I'd argue it;s anything but liberel for the exact same reason you menion - the exam mill. But that's digressing even further.

We're supposed to be talking abotu a langauge and instead we're talking about a school subject that probably bears little or no resemblance to said language. Why waste time and resources on a practice that will never give you any return on your investment via a large section of people who have no interest or desire to be a part of it?

Shep_Dog

Dughorm wrote: »

Oh I understand but there's two problems
1. No one has presented evidence that the majority want it optional,

Nobody has asked them. But we do have have ample evidence that the majority of the population, when it becomes optional, do not speak Irish and make no effort whatever to learn it.

Dughorm wrote: »

I personally think the current approach re. mandatory subjects is adequate.

So, you agree with a policy which damages the Irish language? I thought you were pro-Gaelige? Would it not be better if people learned Irish out of love or genuine cultural affinity rather than compulsion?

The present system of coercion is an admission of failure. It's time for Gealgeoirs to think outside of the box.

Speedwell

Shep_Dog wrote: »

Would it not be better if people learned Irish out of love or genuine cultural affinity rather than compulsion? The present system of coercion is an admission of failure. It's time for Gealgeoirs to think outside of the box.

Perhaps by not making it crystal clear to interested immigrants that they're crazy even to ask? (Thanks to those who have been encouraging despite their puzzlement.)

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

I personally think the current approach re. mandatory subjects is adequate.

And why should Irish be one of these mandatory subjects, when for example, even Polish is a more useful language to have in this very country?

Speedwell

Dan_Solo wrote: »

And why should Irish be one of these mandatory subjects, when for example, even Polish is a more useful language to have in this very country?

And the spelling conventions are not that much better, either.

Dan_Solo

Shep_Dog wrote: »

The present system of coercion is an admission of failure.

Quite. It must be the first time in history any government has had to force its population to do something they apparently all wanted to do anyway.

LordSutch

Unless something sizemic happens I guess the decades old status quo will continue well into the future . . . .

IRISH WILL REMAIN COMPULSORY right up till the Leaving Cert, and yet few will leave our education system with anything more than the Cupla Focal (this after 14 years of maddatory Irish)!

Then we have the population at large who (after eight decades) show no sign of starting to speak Irish instead of English. Then we have the language of Business/Commerce which is unlikely to abandon English in favour of Irish, which leaves what? Irish being spoken at home (I doubt it), Irish being spoken in pubs and restaurants? No sign of that either.

So the only place we can guarantee that Irish will be spoken across the country is in school, which takes us back to to the top of this post . . .
IRISH WILL REMAIN COMPULSORY right up till the Leaving Cert, and yet few will leave our education system with anything more than the Cupla Focal (this after 14 years of maddatory Irish)!

Solution; Take the mandatory teaching out of the equation, let the language breath and find its own equilibrium, (its natural level) in Irish society, then take it from there, without the need for force feeding. This I suspect would take the negative connotation away from the Irish language, virtually overnight.

Maybe then the language does have a bright future?
but not in the current "mandatory Irish for all" teaching system which has failed for so long.

Dan_Solo

LordSutch wrote: »

Then we have the population at large who (after eight decades) show no sign of starting to speak Irish instead of English. Then we have the language of Business/Commerce which is unlikely to abandon English in favour of Irish, which leaves what? Irish being spoken at home (I doubt it), Irish being spoken in pubs and restaurants? No sign of that either.

Looking at the locations in Ireland where the 1% who habitually use Irish live, I think it's very clear that making Irish optional won't negatively affect the current usage one bit. These are all places where Irish is spoken at home anyway.

ancapailldorcha

Shep_Dog wrote: »

So, you agree with a policy which damages the Irish language? I thought you were pro-Gaelige? Would it not be better if people learned Irish out of love or genuine cultural affinity rather than compulsion?

The present system of coercion is an admission of failure. It's time for Gealgeoirs to think outside of the box.

If the compulsory Irish apologists were capable of thinking outside the box then I'd say we'd be having this debate as Gaelige.

whisky_galore

LordSutch wrote: »

Unless something sizemic happens I guess the decades old status quo will continue well into the future . . . .

Pretty much this. We'll still be codding ourselves that we are somehow a bilingual nation 50, hell, maybe 100 years from now. The vested interests are far too powerful and have the ear of local TDs and are firmly nested in government (many of them being ex-teachers and all) to allow any change.

A reminder of what happened when FG made a cautious peep that Irish might become optional...
http://www.irishcentral.com/news/fine-gaels-proposal-to-make-the-irish-language-optional-at-school-is-rejected-see-poll-116221609-237369721.html

http://www.independent.ie/life/family/learning/language-activists-blast-fgs-plan-to-make-irish-optional-26613367.html

http://www.thejournal.ie/irish-language-students-protest-at-being-dumped-by-fine-gael-84116-Feb2011/

It's an exercise in national self-delusion. What a country we would be if people could get this worked up about our health system and batter ruling political parties into submission.

LordSutch

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

We're supposed to be talking abotu a langauge and instead we're talking about a school subject that probably bears little or no resemblance to said language. Why waste time and resources on a practice that will never give you any return on your investment via a large section of people who have no interest or desire to be a part of it?

Couldnt agree more, and by the way Princess, I've only just got around to reading #1806, thanks for that. This thread seems to have recovered nicely, since 'they' sidestepped into another forum

dr.fuzzenstein

Dughorm wrote: »

Same could be said for religion, drawing, english literature etc... - it's as relevant as you want it to be!!! but why be deprived the opportunity of a liberal arts education?

Relevance is not a matter of choice!!!
Otherwise I could learn flintknapping and say "It is relevant because I say it is relevant!". I would then bitterly complain that there are no facilities for learning it and no jobs as a flintknapper. My complaints would also be irrelevant.
So as you see, relevance is not up to anyone to decide, it is not even decided, it just is. You can disagree with it, but it would be like disagreeing with Tuesdays.
If you now say that all dem malarkey with computhers, (other) languages and mathematics, sure who needs it, it's not relevant, well, I have bad news. In today's world you stay relevant or you sink without at race. It is fast moving, it has to be up to date and if what you got ain't it, you ain't going nowhere.
So, of course anyone who wants, can learn Irish. Just be aware that it is on par with flintknapping. To say that you can learn all this through Irish, very nice, but it is just adding needless complication and work, to make everything else more complicated and exclude students who may have trouble with languages. Do we want this? An education system that says "If you can't master Irish, your career options are severely limited". Not everyone has an aptitude for languages, most likely people with real skills that require true brains, like maths and science.
Irish is an optional add-on, it should NEVER make it harder for anyone to get proper, useful skills. Or are we getting so hardline that we say "we will gladly flush a few careers down the toilet, as long as we can force more people to learn it"? Are we willing to damage the country for this vanity project?
If we did indeed brought Irish back at the expense of English only speakers, jobs, the economy, Ireland's place as an international business hub (we'd be more like Lithuania), would it be worth it? IMO, no, it would severely damage the country.

OMD

Deleted User wrote: »

Regardless of whether the currently policy makes sense or doesn't, or is well executed or not, your concern is almost certainly driven by your own inability to come to terms with the language. The same can be said of most people making the argument, and can be easily gleaned from the pejorative and emotional language they use - like the post quoted above.

I got an A in Irish in the leaving. For that matter I also got an A in maths. Irish has been totally and completely a waste of time.
However, in Ireland, to go to University, it is essentially compulsory (I know some smart arse will come back saying it is not strictly compulsory) to do English, Irish, Maths and another language. So someone who is very good at languages and maths has a distinct advantage over someone who has a natural flair for science or business or the Arts. The system worked for me but that does not make the system a good system.

Removing all compulsory subjects would be a very good thing but at least remove the compulsion on Irish and a foreign language would be a very good start.

Speedwell

Who sets up what subjects are compulsory to enter university in Ireland, the schools themselves, some private regulatory body, or the government? I quite agree that no subjects should be compulsory, except as set by the university itself with respect to a particular course of study.

Carlos Orange

Speedwell wrote: »

Who sets up what subjects are compulsory to enter university in Ireland, the schools themselves, some private regulatory body, or the government? I quite agree that no subjects should be compulsory, except as set by the university itself with respect to a particular course of study.

I think it is up to the university. Afaik it is only universities that were founded as a Catholic alternative to non denominational universities that have Irish as an entry requirement.

DyldeBrill

LordSutch wrote: »

Unless something sizemic happens I guess the decades old status quo will continue well into the future . . . .

IRISH WILL REMAIN COMPULSORY right up till the Leaving Cert, and yet few will leave our education system with anything more than the Cupla Focal (this after 14 years of maddatory Irish)!

Then we have the population at large who (after eight decades) show no sign of starting to speak Irish instead of English. Then we have the language of Business/Commerce which is unlikely to abandon English in favour of Irish, which leaves what? Irish being spoken at home (I doubt it), Irish being spoken in pubs and restaurants? No sign of that either.

So the only place we can guarantee that Irish will be spoken across the country is in school, which takes us back to to the top of this post . . .
IRISH WILL REMAIN COMPULSORY right up till the Leaving Cert, and yet few will leave our education system with anything more than the Cupla Focal (this after 14 years of maddatory Irish)!

Solution; Take the mandatory teaching out of the equation, let the language breath and find its own equilibrium, (its natural level) in Irish society, then take it from there, without the need for force feeding. This I suspect would take the negative connotation away from the Irish language, virtually overnight.

Maybe then the language does have a bright future?
but not in the current "mandatory Irish for all" teaching system which has failed for so long.

What evidence suggests that it will only be spoken in schools?

I'm all for making the Irish language optional, and agree that something is going to have to change in the curriculum, but how would you know what language people will speak at home? I know plenty of people that speak nothing but Irish in their homes, especially in the west of the country and that also carry out their business through Irish. I don't see this changing. That's not to say they don't speak English at all but Irish would be their 1st language...English second and this will continue. Its a long line of tradition in families, and a tradition that will carry on.


I agree that the start must come from school level and then work to make it more openly spoken. However, too many students across Ireland are learning from teachers that actually don't have much of a clue about the language themselves. This effects the students, hence spreading negativity within the language. There's even a 'Dublin Irish' in which people laugh about due to the way they mispronounce words among other things. This isn't right and its a half arsed job from a lot of teachers. (Not stating that every teacher is like this). Its failed at school level for so many reasons. This won't deter a minority of people from speaking the language
but it certainly scare off the majority.

Either way people have always written off the Irish language and have stated for years upon years that the language is completely dead or will die...but guess what? Its not. Now this may disappoint a few people in here. When I first started off in school I heard this argument being brushed about, yet here I am still speaking Irish.

Its plain and simple that some people 'hate' the language. Yes I've used that wicked word hate. By no means for suggesting a change in the curriculum makes you a hater nor does it make you a hater if you simply do not want to speak or learn the language, that's completely your choice, but some comments in this thread have stemmed from their deep hatred of the language and when us people defending Irish point this out then we're all part of the hate brigade...Now in saying that the majority of the people on here have good arguments, even though I disagree with plenty of them I must respect your decision, but this 'hate brigade' is an easy way out for some people's arguments on here, and its down right disrespectful in some cases.

We need to rid of the negativity that surrounds the language at school level so people choose to speak the language without having it shoved down their neck or to determine their future. It needs to be taught properly by teachers that have a full grasp on the Irish language. Changing the curriculum may increase Irish speakers...or it may not, we'll never know unless a change is implemented, just like we'll never know if the language will die in the future.

There will always be Irish speakers but of course I would like to see a change and a positive approach taken towards the language in so people can willingly enjoy the language because deep down it is beautiful, poetic and teaches us a lot about where us Irish people came from.

Dan_Solo

DyldeBrill wrote: »

Either way people have always written off the Irish language and have stated for years upon years that the language is completely dead or will die...but guess what? Its not. Now this may disappoint a few people in here. When I first started off in school I heard this argument being brushed about, yet here I am still speaking Irish.

You and the rest of the 1% of the country who use it habitually.
I could say exactly the same about the more popular Polish. Why not teach that in school? You're more likely to find somebody to speak it with!
Here we are again for the millionth (well, not millionth because there's only 40-80,000 of ye) time with the pro-Irish crew anecdotes. See flintknapping above.

Speedwell

Oddly, I happen to know three flintknappers personally. Apparently there's a segment of the handmade knife fancier community that's into that sort of thing.

Dan_Solo

Speedwell wrote: »

Oddly, I happen to know three flintknappers personally. Apparently there's a segment of the handmade knife fancier community that's into that sort of thing.

Well a good sharp knife is more use than conas ata tu will ever be I guess...

Dan_Solo

Speedwell wrote: »

Who sets up what subjects are compulsory to enter university in Ireland, the schools themselves, some private regulatory body, or the government? I quite agree that no subjects should be compulsory, except as set by the university itself with respect to a particular course of study.

I think it's an NUI stipulation? Not sure if the evil sasenach TCD has it too?
Interestingly, the NUI and the Board of Education have different views on Irish requirement. If you're born outside Ireland and move here after a certain age then NUI say you don't need Irish to get in. But the Board of Education will insist you continue to sit the mandatory classes...

DyldeBrill

Dan_Solo wrote: »

You and the rest of the 1% of the country who use it habitually.
I could say exactly the same about the more popular Polish. Why not teach that in school? You're more likely to find somebody to speak it with!
Here we are again for the millionth (well, not millionth because there's only 40-80,000 of ye) time with the pro-Irish crew anecdotes. See flintknapping above.

Here we go with the whole 'pro-Irish' BS again.

You've been harping on an on about Polish, Chinese and whatever other languages you've googled to try make any of your arguments sound concrete. And FTR, when have I ever said that Polish shouldn't be taught in schools?What has this thread got to do with Polish? You've proven once again that you can't stick with the issue in hand and continue to answer your own questions, change people's words to suit yourself and just being down right silly most the time.

You've stated a day or two ago that you would not like to see the Irish language die? I'm confused by this , you've done nothing but slate the language, without giving one bit of positive feedback on the language. I wouldn't mind if you just said you'd prefer if it would die out at least then you're being honest instead of throwing around contradictory statements.

You are a complete waste of time when dealing with this issue because you simply can't stick to the issue in hand.

ancapailldorcha

DyldeBrill wrote: »

I'm all for making the Irish language optional, and agree that something is going to have to change in the curriculum, but how would you know what language people will speak at home? I know plenty of people that speak nothing but Irish in their homes, especially in the west of the country and that also carry out their business through Irish. I don't see this changing. That's not to say they don't speak English at all but Irish would be their 1st language...English second and this will continue. Its a long line of tradition in families, and a tradition that will carry on.

If people are speaking Irish in their day-to-day lives then the market will be providing a selection of media in the Irish language for consumption. Given that this is not the case then I think it can be fairly concluded that the vast majority of the population is speaking English as well they should.

I've never bashed the language itself. The current system serves only to foster resentment towards it, waste taxpayers' money and further it's demise. At the very absolute least, it needs to be optional.

Speedwell

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

If people are speaking Irish in their day-to-day lives then the market will be providing a selection of media in the Irish language for consumption. Given that this is not the case...

The problem with libertarian "the free market will regulate itself" style arguments is that no actor has perfect knowledge, unlimited access to the market, or unlimited resources, and is trading with other actors who have a different array of knowledge, access points, and resources. I used to be a libertarian and I'm sick and tired of "perfect market" arguments that never pan out in practice.

Dan_Solo

DyldeBrill wrote: »

Here we go with the whole 'pro-Irish' BS again.

You've been harping on an on about Polish, Chinese and whatever other languages you've googled to try make any of your arguments sound concrete. And FTR, when have I ever said that Polish shouldn't be taught in schools?What has this thread got to do with Polish? You've proven once again that you can't stick with the issue in hand and continue to answer your own questions, change people's words to suit yourself and just being down right silly most the time.

You've stated a day or two ago that you would not like to see the Irish language die? I'm confused by this , you've done nothing but slate the language, without giving one bit of positive feedback on the language. I wouldn't mind if you just said you'd prefer if it would die out at least then you're being honest instead of throwing around contradictory statements.

You are a complete waste of time when dealing with this issue because you simply can't stick to the issue in hand.

You do seem confused alright.
I have to support compulsory teaching of Irish to not want it to die? I don't support compulsory teaching of art or music so by your definition I want those to disappear too, yeah? Lots of sense being made there.
I'm using the example of Polish to counter any claims that Irish needs to be mandatory because it is in some way important in Irish life or to Irish people. Yet Irish isn't even the second most used language in Ireland. It probably isn't even the third most popular language in Ireland by actual fluency. So why is it compulsory beyond cultural enforcement?
The rest of your post is just a generalised non-specific whine. "I don't like your sort of posts".

ancapailldorcha

Speedwell wrote: »

The problem with libertarian "the free market will regulate itself" style arguments is that no actor has perfect knowledge, unlimited access to the market, or unlimited resources, and is trading with other actors who have a different array of knowledge, access points, and resources. I used to be a libertarian and I'm sick and tired of "perfect market" arguments that never pan out in practice.

Nobody's ever accused me of being a libertarian before. My point was that if it was widely spoken to any extent, then we'd have some media being produced in the language as in other countries. We even got a GAA game for the PS2 but nothing in Irish.

Speedwell

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Nobody's ever accused me of being a libertarian before. My point was that if it was widely spoken to any extent, then we'd have some media being produced in the language as in other countries. We even got a GAA game for the PS2 but nothing in Irish.

That's a valid point, then, about not seeing media, though I would personally rule out other reasons for it (such as, for example, economic or political pressures). Come to think of it I should also probably stop using the word "libertarian" as it is used by the Ludwig Von Mises Institute and the Libertarian Party in America, that is, someone with a death-grip on "free market" principles and a loose grip on practicalities. Not referring to you, of course.

Dan_Solo

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Nobody's ever accused me of being a libertarian before. My point was that if it was widely spoken to any extent, then we'd have some media being produced in the language as in other countries. We even got a GAA game for the PS2 but nothing in Irish.

There are though, by TG4? Whether anybody would pay for their output if they had to, or if it would be made in the first place without Udaras handouts, is another matter.

ancapailldorcha

Speedwell wrote: »

That's a valid point, then, about not seeing media, though I would personally rule out other reasons for it (such as, for example, economic or political pressures). Come to think of it I should also probably stop using the word "libertarian" as it is used by the Ludwig Von Mises Institute and the Libertarian Party in America, that is, someone with a death-grip on "free market" principles and a loose grip on practicalities. Not referring to you, of course.

I'm centre-left with a few socialist beliefs thrown in with regards to healthcare, education and the environment. I'm not familiar with those institutions so I'm afraid I've nothing to counter that with.

Dan_Solo wrote: »

There are though, by TG4? Whether anybody would pay for their output if they had to, or if it would be made in the first place without Udaras handouts, is another matter.

TG4 is a public service broadcaster which isn't privately owned. This makes sense as even the content providers know that the endeavour is doomed. Last time I had it on they were playing American Westerns with no subtitles.

Speedwell

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I'm centre-left with a few socialist beliefs thrown in with regards to healthcare, education and the environment. I'm not familiar with those institutions so I'm afraid I've nothing to counter that with.

Yeah, sorry about that, it was a misstep on my part to use the word at all around here. I don't get it all correct yet.

whisky_galore

Dan_Solo wrote: »

There are though, by TG4? Whether anybody would pay for their output if they had to, or if it would be made in the first place without Udaras handouts, is another matter.

TG4 and Radio na G. I'm sure there's newspapers out there, but I don't tend to look out for those things.

One irksome thing imho is that Irish language Wikipedia page translation on Newstalk radio during ad breaks, pure tokenism to fill a quota I imagine?

Carlos Orange

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Nobody's ever accused me of being a libertarian before. My point was that if it was widely spoken to any extent, then we'd have some media being produced in the language as in other countries. We even got a GAA game for the PS2 but nothing in Irish.

I only really paid attention to GAA for a few years while they were handing out fizzy drinks and crisps every time we won the All Ireland but I imagine GAA is probably an order of magnitude bigger than the Irish language.

ancapailldorcha

psinno wrote: »

I only really paid attention to GAA for a few years while they were handing out fizzy drinks and crisps every time we won the All Ireland but I imagine GAA is probably an order of magnitude bigger than the Irish language.

I only mentioned it as it was the only other significant aspect of Irish culture I could think of on the fly. It's not a fair comparison as 1) GAA is good for you for obvious reasons and 2) it's consuming far fewer state resources with a much better return. There are GAA clubs in the Middle East which is a measure of how popular it is.

dr.fuzzenstein

Dughorm wrote: »

I don't think it is reasonable for Irish to be optional and English to be mandatory as the syllabi currently stand. Being consistent - having an 'all optional' stance is reasonable!

It's all about relevance.
French, German, Italian, etc... are.
Irish isn't.

dr.fuzzenstein

Speedwell wrote: »

Oddly, I happen to know three flintknappers personally. Apparently there's a segment of the handmade knife fancier community that's into that sort of thing.

Soooo, how many jobs do you think there are in the country for flintknappers vs, oh, I don't know, IT?
Now, if there are indeed as many as three in Ireland, do you mean as a hobby, or do they actually make a living out of it?
Is that now in your opinion a relevant industry? Should it be compulsory at school? Surely anything to retain and keep alive the (second) oldest profession in the world?
Of course if flintknapping isn't compulsory, I don't see why IT should be then (it probably isn't, we're still catching up with all that computer stuff), because by your logic the same applies to Irish and French or other useful foreign languages vs Irish. Only those are serious, useful tools in every day life and in the business world, i.e. happening right now and being in demand and opening up actual possibilities. There are probably public service jobs that demand a level of Irish (Do you speak Irish? yes. Good, you're hired, now let's never speak of it again)
If schools now focus on Irish, why don't we bring back courses for farriers and hoopers? And make them compulsory?
Relevancy, as you said. It's not a personal choice.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

It's all about relevance.
French, German, Italian, etc... are.
Irish isn't.

I don't biy this "relevance" argument. If you enjoy the lanaguge, wish to learn it and have no interest in ever leaving the island, then it is relevant to the individual.

Arguing against Irish because it's universally "irrelevant" is as much a fallacy as arguing that it's univerally "important" when you're trying to impleement a system of choice.

Carlos Orange

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

It's all about relevance.
French, German, Italian, etc... are.
Irish isn't.

They could just make the schools language of tuition mandatory. Then everyone is happy.

Dan_Solo

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Of course if flintknapping isn't compulsory, I don't see why IT should be then (it probably isn't, we're still catching up with all that computer stuff), because by your logic the same applies to Irish and French or other useful foreign languages vs Irish. Only those are serious, useful tools in every day life and in the business world, i.e. happening right now and being in demand and opening up actual possibilities. There are probably public service jobs that demand a level of Irish (Do you speak Irish? yes. Good, you're hired, now let's never speak of it again)

Then again, if the state decided to set up a department of flintknapping, fund millions worth of TV and radio shows about flintknapping, gave generous grants to just about anything that happens in areas strong in flintknapping, then made flintkapping mandatory throughout school and in many public sector jobs...
Yes, I reckon then in that case flintknapping would be an excellent skill to have.

whisky_galore

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I only mentioned it as it was the only other significant aspect of Irish culture I could think of on the fly. It's not a fair comparison as 1) GAA is good for you for obvious reasons and 2) it's consuming far fewer state resources with a much better return. There are GAA clubs in the Middle East which is a measure of how popular it is.

It's not my bag personally, but maybe the attraction is that it's fun, a critical mass of people actually participate in it and enjoy it and therefore far easier to get behind..you could say much the same about Irish (traditional) music and that's not compulsory either. People actually want to do it.

Dan_Solo

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I don't biy this "relevance" argument. If you enjoy the lanaguge, wish to learn it and have no interest in ever leaving the island, then it is relevant to the individual.

Anything can be relevant to the individual.
This isn't much of a basis for making it mandatory throughout schooling or having whatever that interest is costing the state billions.

Speedwell

whisky_galore wrote: »

It's not my bag personally, but maybe the attraction is that it's fun, a critical mass of people actually participate in it and enjoy it and therefore far easier to get behind..you could say much the same about Irish (traditional) music and that's not compulsory either. People actually want to do it.

or Irish whiskey?

whisky_galore

Speedwell wrote: »

or Irish whiskey?

Yeah sure, why not?

DyldeBrill

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

If people are speaking Irish in their day-to-day lives then the market will be providing a selection of media in the Irish language for consumption. Given that this is not the case then I think it can be fairly concluded that the vast majority of the population is speaking English as well they should.

I've never bashed the language itself. The current system serves only to foster resentment towards it, waste taxpayers' money and further it's demise. At the very absolute least, it needs to be optional.

So media outlets need to be created to prove the language is spoken in homes on a daily basis?

I've never denied that the vast majority of Ireland speak English...of course they do and its vital that they do.

The money simply isn't there to provide vast amounts of media outlets but RnaLife, and tuairisc.ie are popular Irish media outlets.


I'm using the example of Polish to counter any claims that Irish needs to be mandatory because it is in some way important in Irish life or to Irish people.

Dan_Solo wrote: »

You do seem confused alright.
I have to support compulsory teaching of Irish to not want it to die? I don't support compulsory teaching of art or music so by your definition I want those to disappear too, yeah?

No a chara, you seem somewhat confused. If you actually read my comment previous to the one you answered it would have saved you going on the usual daft rant that you love. I may as well be speaking to the wall here. I'll put it to you like this. You are making ZERO sense. Your raising issues that I never once raised. Now your talking about arts and music....I think I've just about given up on you dear fellow. You still haven't answered as to why you wouldn't want the Irish language to die.

I'm using the example of Polish to counter any claims that Irish needs to be mandatory because it is in some way important in Irish life or to Irish people.

Ahhh that's why you keep bringing it up. Yes it is mandatory to learn Irish in schools in this country...I fail to see where I have said that it should remain mandatory so maybe you can stop using this.

I've stated that the compulsory teaching of Irish in schools needs to be changed so I fail to see what your actually harping on about once again. Your the one raising these issues not me, you've come to the point where you're answering your own questions.

dr.fuzzenstein

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I don't biy this "relevance" argument. If you enjoy the lanaguge, wish to learn it and have no interest in ever leaving the island, then it is relevant to the individual.

Arguing against Irish because it's universally "irrelevant" is as much a fallacy as arguing that it's univerally "important" when you're trying to impleement a system of choice.

Good, because I'm not selling it.
Relevance is like Tuesdays. It just exists, agree with it or not.
We come back to flintknapping. If you have learnt it and maybe get a job in the Craggaunowen demonstrating it to tourists or maybe you recreate ancient stone axes and arrowheads for museums of course it will be hugely relevant to you. But now, because it is relevant to you, do we make it compulsory at school? Maybe over IT? Or you can't do IT without having passed flintknapping?
Relevance is HUGELY important to schools, they don't just teach stuff for fun or because they like it. They need to teach stuff that is relevant in the modern world, so the pupils can get a thing that's called a job. Except Irish. That is there because of pressure and interest groups. Do the people who manage to get a career out of it amount to a significant number? Is the return a good justification of the millions spent and the millions of hours wasted, because everyone has to learn something of not much use?

Dan_Solo

DyldeBrill wrote: »

No a chara, you seem somewhat confused. If you actually read my comment previous to the one you answered it would have saved you going on the usual daft rant that you love. I may as well be speaking to the wall here. I'll put it to you like this. You are making ZERO sense. Your raising issues that I never once raised. Now your talking about arts and music....I think I've just about given up on you dear fellow. You still haven't answered as to why you wouldn't want the Irish language to die.

Wow. Another vague, waffling, meandering, not-addressing anything at all attack on my "general" posting style. Who wuddathunkit?

DyldeBrill wrote: »

The money simply isn't there to provide vast amounts of media outlets but RnaLife, and tuairisc.ie are popular Irish media outlets.

And why should they be? It's very obvious nobody wants to use them. If there were 1,000,000 Irish radio and TV channels would everybody stop listening and watching English media?
Sure, yeah, sure they would.

Any chance you'd actually answer anything without the "your posts are poo poo" style responses? Perhaps start with why you think I want Irish to die, which you have, what a surprise, yet again failed miserably to demonstrate any evidence for?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Good, because I'm not selling it.
Relevance is like Tuesdays. It just exists, agree with it or not.
We come back to flintknapping. If you have learnt it and maybe get a job in the Craggaunowen demonstrating it to tourists or maybe you recreate ancient stone axes and arrowheads for museums of course it will be hugely relevant to you. But now, because it is relevant to you, do we make it compulsory at school? Maybe over IT? Or you can't do IT without having passed flintknapping?
Relevance is HUGELY important to schools, they don't just teach stuff for fun or because they like it. They need to teach stuff that is relevant in the modern world, so the pupils can get a thing that's called a job. Except Irish. That is there because of pressure and interest groups. Do the people who manage to get a career out of it amount to a significant number? Is the return a good justification of the millions spent and the millions of hours wasted, because everyone has to learn something of not much use?

Then you previous point stating "it;s irrelevant" is a bit incomplete.

For me, education is (well, should be) about far more than just preparing a student for a third level course or a job, and I'd argue it doesn't even do that in any way efficiently.

dr.fuzzenstein

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Then you previous point stating "it;s irrelevant" is a bit incomplete.

For me, education is (well, should be) about far more than just preparing a student for a third level course or a job, and I'd argue it doesn't even do that in any way efficiently.

We do always come back to relevance. There are many subjects any well rounded student should have some knowledge in. But is it important enough to make compulsory for everyone? Compulsory to me should be subjects like English and maths, i.e. "cannot do without in the modern world" subjects, or "absolutely required to land a job or go to 3rd level" subjects.
Irish should be taught, but it shouldn't be compulsory, because it doesn't fall into that category.