The Irish language is failing.

ancapailldorcha

DyldeBrill wrote: »

So media outlets need to be created to prove the language is spoken in homes on a daily basis?

You've twisted my point. If a country has a multilingual population with multiple languages in use then that would constitute a niche in the market, one which will usually be filled quite quickly.

DyldeBrill wrote: »

The money simply isn't there to provide vast amounts of media outlets but RnaLife, and tuairisc.ie are popular Irish media outlets.

I've never heard of the latter and barely of the former. How are you assessing popularity? Tuairisc.ie is yet another state-owned proppin-up measure.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

We do always come back to relevance. There are many subjects any well rounded student should have some knowledge in. But is it important enough to make compulsory for everyone? Compulsory to me should be subjects like English and maths, i.e. "cannot do without in the modern world" subjects, or "absolutely required to land a job or go to 3rd level" subjects.
Irish should be taught, but it shouldn't be compulsory, because it doesn't fall into that category.

Oh I agree - but I don't see the point in mandatory Maths or English after the JC. Either you have enough knowledge of the sujects at that point for the modern world, or something far more fundamental has gone seriously wrong.

I'm just sayign the idea of Irish being "irrelevant" is relative.

ancapailldorcha

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Oh I agree - but I don't see the point in mandatory Maths or English after the JC. Either you have enough knowledge of the sujects at that point for the modern world, or something far more fundamental has gone seriously wrong.

I'm just sayign the idea of Irish being "irrelevant" is relative.

The thing is that a "one-size-fits-all" approach is impossible and so the system is set up based on probability. There are a wide range of professions where education in Maths and English is beneficial. Irish, on the other hand only serves to perpetuate a broken system. If people want to learn it then of course they should but the likelihood of pupils reaping a benefit from the obscene amount of time mis-studying it is so slight that they'd gain as much learning about Gaius Marius or something equally obscure.

PopePalpatine

I've honestly never heard of tuairisc.ie. I can't imagine Raidio na Life regularly hitting high quintuple-figures of listeners, either.

ancapailldorcha

PopePalpatine wrote: »

I've honestly never heard of tuairisc.ie. I can't imagine Raidio na Life regularly hitting high quintuple-figures of listeners, either.

Nobody seems to know how many people regularly tune in. I'm guessing very few.

Dan_Solo

PopePalpatine wrote: »

I've honestly never heard of tuairisc.ie. I can't imagine Raidio na Life regularly hitting high quintuple-figures of listeners, either.

Raidio na Life I know from them playing lots of classical music years ago. I can't say I've ever listened to any their Irish language programmes. I'm not sure I even noticed them having any.

OMD

Deleted User wrote: »

If you have an argument to make to change the status of either of our languages in law and in the public realm, it's up to you to make it rather than trying to change the discussion to draw attention away from your inability to advance your case.

You should bear in mind that my argument isn't about "mandating Irish in schools", or whatever other hobby horse you have. I would prefer a radical overhaul of the teaching of Irish, as it happens. But that view of mine is by the by. Your argument is based on your inability to get to grips with Irish and your prejudices against it. If you want to be taken seriously, you'll need to advance more credible arguments that rely on reason rather than emotion.

I haven't read all this thread but have you actually given any reason why Irish should continue as a compulsory subject for the leaving cert?

LuckyLloyd

I'm failing to see any compelling arguments for Irish as a compulsory second level subject in this thread.

Hint: 'well, that's the status quo, tough' is not a compelling argument.

DyldeBrill

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Wow. Another vague, waffling, meandering, not-addressing anything at all attack on my "general" posting style. Who wuddathunkit?
And why should they be? It's very obvious nobody wants to use them. If there were 1,000,000 Irish radio and TV channels would everybody stop listening and watching English media?
Sure, yeah, sure they would.

Any chance you'd actually answer anything without the "your posts are poo poo" style responses? Perhaps start with why you think I want Irish to die, which you have, what a surprise, yet again failed miserably to demonstrate any evidence for?

What haven't I addressed? If there is anyone here that isn't addressing the topic in hand its you.

You said you didn't want the Irish language to die...I asked why....no reply.

Evidence for what? What are you actually asking me here? I stated that there simply isn't enough money to finance media outlets.Why? because Irish is a minority language. I'm simply giving my own opinion, which is something that you obviously can't understand.

I'll leave it at that with you :pac:

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

You've twisted my point. If a country has a multilingual population with multiple languages in use then that would constitute a niche in the market, one which will usually be filled quite quickly.



I've never heard of the latter and barely of the former. How are you assessing popularity? Tuairisc.ie is yet another state-owned proppin-up measure.

I haven't twisted your point at all. My initial point was that people will continue to speak Irish in their homes. There is a niche in the Irish market, maybe not one that you are familiar with, nor might it be quite so big but there is a niche. I do understand your point though. Tuairisc was and is funded by the government. Yes its popular within the Irish community but consider my point void for not having numbers to back it up.

A hefty amount of money has been poured into it so I can understand why you are left frustrated as a taxpayer. What would make more sense is to have TG4 and RnaG united and creating an independent Irish language public server. The answer is not to keep pumping money into something that isn't working. The Irish planning is quite simply embarrassing.

Raidio na Life has roughly 20,000+ listeners in the greater Dublin area. Considering that the majority of the presenters are volunteers @ this station, I find that to be a huge success. Really good station for anyone that likes good music and some very good talk shows on it as well.

ancapailldorcha

DyldeBrill wrote: »

I haven't twisted your point at all. My initial point was that people will continue to speak Irish in their homes. There is a niche in the Irish market, maybe not one that you are familiar with, nor might it be quite so big but there is a niche. I do understand your point though. Tuairisc was and is funded by the government. Yes its popular within the Irish community but consider my point void for not having numbers to back it up.

A hefty amount of money has been poured into it so I can understand why you are left frustrated as a taxpayer. What would make more sense is to have TG4 and RnaG united and creating an independent Irish language public server. The answer is not to keep pumping money into something that isn't working. The Irish planning is quite simply embarrassing.

Raidio na Life has roughly 20,000+ listeners in the greater Dublin area. Considering that the majority of the presenters are volunteers @ this station, I find that to be a huge success. Really good station for anyone that likes good music and some very good talk shows on it as well.

Why do you keep emphasising "in their homes". Are these people somehow ashamed of speaking it in public? I'd agree about weaning RnG and TG4 off the state teat though.

Do you have a source for that RnaLife claim?

DyldeBrill

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Why do you keep emphasising "in their homes". Are these people somehow ashamed of speaking it in public? I'd agree about weaning RnG and TG4 off the state teat though.

Do you have a source for that RnaLife claim?

I'm not emphasising that people are only speaking Irish in their homes, it was a response to a point raised. Of course Irish is spoken in public. I think you are somewhat twisting my words here.

RnaLife source; http://www.mediastreet.ie/en/businesses/raidio-na-life-1064-fm

Shep_Dog

DyldeBrill wrote: »

The money simply isn't there to provide vast amounts of media outlets but RnaLife, and tuairisc.ie are popular Irish media outlets.

Aren't they both funded by Foras na Gaeilge, a government-funded agency?

Dughorm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Why waste time and resources on a practice that will never give you any return on your investment via a large section of people who have no interest or desire to be a part of it?

This echoes Dan_Solo's "productive" educational philosophy for "robopupils" as he so memorably puts it. Grist for the mill!!!

Why must education give "return on investment"? Is a liberal arts education not an end in itself?

Shep_Dog

Dughorm wrote: »

Is a liberal arts education not an end in itself?

There is nothing liberal about forcing children to speak Irish.

Dughorm

Shep_Dog wrote: »

So, you agree with a policy which damages the Irish language? I thought you were pro-Gaelige? Would it not be better if people learned Irish out of love or genuine cultural affinity rather than compulsion?

The present system of coercion is an admission of failure.

I don't think compulsory Irish or English or Maths damages the reputation of any of these subjects. It would be brilliant if people learn Irish or English or Maths out of love for it - funnily enough you might be surprised which of these 3 subjects has the highest proportion of attendees at night classes!

I don't think our educational approach could be called a "system of coercion" unless you're referring to the points race of course!

Dughorm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

And why should Irish be one of these mandatory subjects, when for example, even Polish is a more useful language to have in this very country?

Is it a more "productive" language you mean?

Dughorm

LordSutch wrote: »

Unless something sizemic happens I guess the decades old status quo will continue well into the future . . . .

IRISH WILL REMAIN COMPULSORY right up till the Leaving Cert, and yet few will leave our education system with anything more than the Cupla Focal (this after 14 years of maddatory Irish)!

Isn't that shocking really when you think about? Says a lot about how it is taught!

LordSutch wrote: »

Solution; Take the mandatory teaching out of the equation, let the language breath and find its own equilibrium, (its natural level) in Irish society, then take it from there, without the need for force feeding. This I suspect would take the negative connotation away from the Irish language, virtually overnight.

Is there a negative connotation with other mandatory subjects? If not, why is that? Maybe because the fact of the subject being mandatory is a red herring.

briany

Dughorm wrote: »

I don't think compulsory Irish or English or Maths damages the reputation of any of these subjects. It would be brilliant if people learn Irish or English or Maths out of love for it - funnily enough you might be surprised which of these 3 subjects has the highest proportion of attendees at night classes!

OK, but if you're going to claim that, you'll want to put up a few statistical numbers along with their source, just for veracity's sake.

Dughorm

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Relevance is not a matter of choice!!!

Please justify this - if I am interested in Irish it is relevant to me isn't it?
If I decide that Irish is part of my identity am I not free to decide this?

Who does decide my identity in your opinion?

Dughorm

OMD wrote: »

I got an A in Irish in the leaving. For that matter I also got an A in maths. Irish has been totally and completely a waste of time.

So did I - but I find that Irish has been more relevant to me than my leaving cert maths has been. So I guess it depends on the person as to whether a subject is a waste of time.

Dughorm

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Relevance is HUGELY important to schools, they don't just teach stuff for fun or because they like it. They need to teach stuff that is relevant in the modern world, so the pupils can get a thing that's called a job. Except Irish. That is there because of pressure and interest groups. Do the people who manage to get a career out of it amount to a significant number? Is the return a good justification of the millions spent and the millions of hours wasted, because everyone has to learn something of not much use?

If you share Dan_Solo's capitalist view of education then I don't think we can agree here because if getting a "job" is the desired outcome of the "schooling machine" then we should be all getting work experience placements in secondary education...to mould our individuality into the generic "worker" that "the economy" requires...

I still think it's a great part of our educational system that students *can* study the arts, history, classics, languages out of pure interest should they so choose.

Dughorm

Shep_Dog wrote: »

There is nothing liberal about forcing children to speak Irish.

Don't worry about that Shep_Dog... Irish teachers aren't encouraging children to speak Irish hardly at all... that's the problem!

Dughorm

briany wrote: »

OK, but if you're going to claim that, you'll want to put up a few statistical numbers along with their source, just for veracity's sake.

I don't know the answer myself - but I think people would be surprised!

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Dughorm wrote: »

This echoes Dan_Solo's "productive" educational philosophy for "robopupils" as he so memorably puts it. Grist for the mill!!!

Why must education give "return on investment"? Is a liberal arts education not an end in itself?

Well, yes - yes it should give a return. In any case, I meant the return on the investment in the Irish language.

Off topic, but there is nothing liberal about having three set subjects on a syllabus that kids have already attained operation skills in, which the ay or may not want to tae further. Liberal would mean being taught to express yourself and being respected enough and encouraged to choose.

byhookorbycrook

Dughorm wrote: »

Don't worry about that Shep_Dog... Irish teachers aren't encouraging children to speak Irish hardly at all... that's the problem!

Generalise much???

Dughorm

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Generalise much???

True... that should say "some"

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

This echoes Dan_Solo's "productive" educational philosophy for "robopupils" as he so memorably puts it. Grist for the mill!!!

Why must education give "return on investment"? Is a liberal arts education not an end in itself?

I used the term "robopupils" to pull the piss out of the way you are portraying any inclination to teach children subjects that might be of any earthly use to them after they finish school. "return on investment" was also one of your own phrases.
So nobody should do maths or science, just languages and art. Yeah, that'll work.

LordSutch

Dughorm wrote: »

Isn't that shocking really when you think about? Says a lot about how it is taught!

Agreed 100%

Dughorm wrote: »

Is there a negative connotation with other mandatory subjects? If not, why is that? Maybe because the fact of the subject being mandatory is a red herring.

Huh? You mean Irish is not a core/mandatory subject in school?

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

If you share Dan_Solo's capitalist view of education

Which you never actually demonstrated in any sense outside outside your own imagination/deliberate fabrication.

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

Is it a more "productive" language you mean?

It will also make them happier and more capable. It might even improve their memory and they'll remember the three things I said education should do instead of just the one.

Dughorm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

So nobody should do maths or science, just languages and art. Yeah, that'll work.

I didn't draw that wild conclusion Dan_Solo - you did!

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I used the term "robopupils" to pull the piss out of the way you are portraying any inclination to teach children subjects that might be of any earthly use to them after they finish school.

Guess why I used it... :pac:

Dan_Solo wrote: »

"return on investment" was also one of your own phrases.

Don't think it was... please show me

Dan you never told us what your experience of learning Irish was like? Was there lots of spoken Irish out of curiousty?

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

Don't worry about that Shep_Dog... Irish teachers aren't encouraging children to speak Irish hardly at all... that's the problem!

Hmmm, sounds like coercion. Shouldn't they be allowed to decide whether they want to speak it or not?

Dughorm

LordSutch wrote: »

Originally Posted by Dughorm
Is there a negative connotation with other mandatory subjects? If not, why is that? Maybe because the fact of the subject being mandatory is a red herring.


Huh? You mean Irish is not a core/mandatory subject in school?

Sorry let me be clearer - is the negative connotation only with Irish and not with English or Maths? If people don't have a negative connotation with English/Maths then perhaps whether a subject is mandatory is besides the point?

In other words, it's not mandatory Irish people have a problem with, it's them learning Irish full stop

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

Dan you never told us what your experience of learning Irish was like? Was there lots of spoken Irish out of curiousty?

Aaaand there's the personalisation/anecdote thing again from the pro-Irish brigade.
My personal experience of Irish has the square root of f. all to do with this. As much on of the 1% of Irish people who regularly speaks Irish saying we should all be forced to speak it because they do.

Dughorm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Hmmm, sounds like coercion. Shouldn't they be allowed to decide whether they want to speak it or not?

Should Irish teachers be allowed to decide whether they want to speak Irish in the classroom or not? I totally believe Irish teachers who don't speak Irish in the classroom need some encouragement to do so alright....

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

Should Irish teachers be allowed to decide whether they want to speak Irish in the classroom or not? I totally believe Irish teachers who don't speak Irish in the classroom need some encouragement to do so alright....

Do you think there are Irish teachers who can't speak Irish at all? Is this another facet of your imaginary "poorly taught Irish" theory?

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

Sorry let me be clearer - is the negative connotation only with Irish and not with English or Maths? If people don't have a negative connotation with English/Maths then perhaps whether a subject is mandatory is besides the point?

In other words, it's not mandatory Irish people have a problem with, it's them learning Irish full stop

Um. Get ready for a shock here. Warning. OK?
People hate mandatory Irish because they actually think mandatory maths and English are good ideas.

Dughorm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Aaaand there's the personalisation/anecdote thing again from the pro-Irish brigade.
My personal experience of Irish has the square root of f. all to do with this. As much on of the 1% of Irish people who regularly speaks Irish saying we should all be forced to speak it because they do.

Well I have to say you have been the most passionate anti-mandatory Irish poster on the thread, typing with such passion and mastery of rhetoric that this topic clearly has personal importance to you.... why don't you open up and share what drives this burning desire with you??

Could you at least confirm that you did learn Irish in the classroom - just to share whether you personally experienced the pleasure of learning the language with your peers - personal testimony if you will....

Dughorm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Do you think there are Irish teachers who can't speak Irish at all? Is this another facet of your imaginary "poorly taught Irish" theory?

You think poor Irish teaching is imaginary? Really?!

stannis

Un Croissant wrote: »

Or should we look elsewhere? I guess I'm inviting the "let's all learn Chinese" gang to join the discussion.

Hope not... back in 1990 everyone was saying "learn German" what with ze two Germanies being reunited and all. The Germans are doing well right now but didn't turn into the superpower that people were expecting/fearing. I live in China most of the year and while its development has been impressive it's built on very shaky foundations. So everyone rushing to learn Chinese in 2015 would be just as foolish as those Germanophiles in 1990.

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

Could you at least confirm that you did learn Irish in the classroom - just to share whether you personally experienced the pleasure of learning the language with your peers - personal testimony if you will....

But my personal experience of Irish is about as useful in a discussion of what should happen at state level as your personal experience.
It's a bit of an admission that your argument is kaput when you need to try to find a personal angle I'm afraid. Pretty damn obvious too.

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

You think poor Irish teaching is imaginary? Really?!

You said there were Irish teachers who can't speak Irish.
I don't believe you TBH.
If Irish teaching is crap, maybe it's because even the teachers couldn't be arsed with it, eh?

LordSutch

Dughorm wrote: »

Sorry let me be clearer - is the negative connotation only with Irish and not with English or Maths? If people don't have a negative connotation with English/Maths then perhaps whether a subject is mandatory is besides the point?

In other words, it's not mandatory Irish people have a problem with, it's them learning Irish full stop

Yes, I suspect it's the double whammy that seems to be the problem.
(Irish + Mandatory = negativity) for whatever reason. Maths & English don't seem to have the same deep seated negativity connected to them! So maybe it's because Irish is a form of communication, an ancient form of communication that people can't be bothered to want to learn, in the modern world?

Dughorm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

But my personal experience of Irish is about as useful in a discussion of what should happen at state level as your personal experience.
It's a bit of an admission that your argument is kaput when you need to try to find a personal angle I'm afraid. Pretty damn obvious too.

Well it would be helpful to understand where you are coming from....

You won't even tell us whether your Irish teacher(s) spoke Irish in the classroom which is quite relevant to the topic given how many people complain about the poor standard of teaching in the classroom....

Dan_Solo wrote: »

You said there were Irish teachers who can't speak Irish.
I don't believe you TBH.

What's a real admission that your argument is a joke is when you feel you have to invent my argument for me... I never said this either!! It's like you're having an imaginary debate with yourself here!

Dan_Solo wrote: »

If Irish teaching is crap, maybe it's because even the teachers couldn't be arsed with it, eh?

I would love a teacher's input here... Byhookorbycrook or another poster perhaps??!! I know some of mine weren't that interested but others were really inspirational...

byhookorbycrook

I work in a Gaelscoil. I see it as a huge endorsement of our language approach to see so many past pupils enroll their children and even (lordy I'm getting old) grandchildren being enrolled. I have also seen past pupils of a school I taught in before I worked in this school enroll their children.

I don't see the language as failing, but as a bit under pressure.

Dughorm

LordSutch wrote: »

Yes, I suspect it's the double whammy that seems to be the problem.
(Irish + Mandatory = negativity) for whatever reason. Maths & English don't seem to have the same deep seated negativity connected to them! So maybe it's because Irish is a form of communication, an ancient form of communication that people can't be bothered to want to learn, in the modern world?

I thought lots of people had a negative attitude towards maths because of its perceived difficulty...

I know plenty who dropped to pass at the earliest opportunity to minimise their exposure to it...

Maths is also an ancient form of communication that *some* can't be bothered to want to learn, in this modern world of computers and calculators!

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

I work in a Gaelscoil. I see it as a huge endorsement of our language approach to see so many past pupils enroll their children and even (lordy I'm getting old) grandchildren being enrolled. I have also seen past pupils of a school I taught in before I worked in this school enroll their children.

I don't see the language as failing, but as a bit under pressure.

Well, it might look a little more enthuasiastic from the point of view of someone who works in a Gaelscoil! Try getting the same level of enthusuasim in a National School.

It depends, though, on what is meant by "failing" and what people see as succeeding. Also, from an educator's point of view, what's your take on compulsory LC Irish? Just in terms of the lanaguge and how it effects the pressue you say its under - lets not go down the road of a mandatory subjects debate again!

The other thing I'd be curious about is: how many ofthe paretns speak Irish themselves?

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

Well it would be helpful to understand where you are coming from....

You won't even tell us whether your Irish teacher(s) spoke Irish in the classroom which is quite relevant to the topic given how many people complain about the poor standard of teaching in the classroom....

You still can't tell me why it would be relevant. Why should anybody care about MY personal experience? An argument is either right or wrong, who's making the argument is irrelevant. The fact you don't even appear to get this is very telling.

Dughorm wrote: »

What's a real admission that your argument is a joke is when you feel you have to invent my argument for me... I never said this either!! It's like you're having an imaginary debate with yourself here!

Dughorm wrote:

I totally believe Irish teachers who don't speak Irish in the classroom need some encouragement to do so alright....

OK then, so you're saying all Irish teachers can speak Irish but they choose not to in Irish classes?
Sorry, that makes about as much sense as them not being able to speak Irish TBH.

Dughorm

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

I work in a Gaelscoil. I see it as a huge endorsement of our language approach to see so many past pupils enroll their children and even (lordy I'm getting old) grandchildren being enrolled. I have also seen past pupils of a school I taught in before I worked in this school enroll their children.

I don't see the language as failing, but as a bit under pressure.

Exactly - so long as there's people interested the language lives on!

2000 posts - well done folks! Cupán tae anyone?

Dan_Solo

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

The other thing I'd be curious about is: how many ofthe paretns speak Irish themselves?

Like every other Gaelscoil outside a Gaeltacht area, the answer will be pretty much zero habitual speakers. Using Irish day to day has no connection whatsoever to the school. It's the home and locality.