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The Irish language is failing.

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Comments

  • #2002
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Dan_Solo wrote: »

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dughorm View Post
    Well it would be helpful to understand where you are coming from....

    You won't even tell us whether your Irish teacher(s) spoke Irish in the classroom which is quite relevant to the topic given how many people complain about the poor standard of teaching in the classroom....


    You still can't tell me why it would be relevant. Why should anybody care about MY personal experience? An argument is either right or wrong, who's making the argument is irrelevant.

    If you have any knowledge of politics you will know that the person making the argument is often more important than the topic at hand - and this is a political question.

    It's up to you whether you share your personal experience, but it has to have people wondering what it must have been like given your keyboard warrior stance on the topic!!

    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    The fact you don't even appear to get this is very telling.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dughorm
    What's a real admission that your argument is a joke is when you feel you have to invent my argument for me... I never said this either!! It's like you're having an imaginary debate with yourself here!

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dughorm
    I totally believe Irish teachers who don't speak Irish in the classroom need some encouragement to do so alright....

    OK then, so you're saying all Irish teachers can speak Irish but they choose not to in Irish classes?
    Sorry, that makes about as much sense as them not being able to speak Irish TBH.

    I'm just going to leave the bits in bold speak for themselves here... notice the absence of the word "all" in my sentence and it's magical appearance in your sentence to completely misrepresent my point here!


  • #2003
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dughorm wrote: »
    If you have any knowledge of politics you will know that the person making the argument is often more important than the topic at hand - and this is a political question.

    It's up to you whether you share your personal experience, but it has to have people wondering what it must have been like given your keyboard warrior stance on the topic!!
    It would only have people who value personal experience over logical argument wondering. Frankly I'm not all that bothered about those kinds of people's opinion.
    Thanks for admitting you couldn't argue your case without resorting to personalising anyway. Cheers.


  • #2004
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dughorm wrote: »
    I'm just going to leave the bits in bold speak for themselves here... notice the absence of the word "all" in my sentence and it's magical appearance in your sentence to completely misrepresent my point here!
    You could just answer the question: do you think not all Irish teachers can speak Irish or that they can but won't?


  • #2005
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,505 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Like every other Gaelscoil outside a Gaeltacht area, the answer will be pretty much zero habitual speakers. Using Irish day to day has no connection whatsoever to the school. It's the home and locality.
    Most of those parents make an effort to use what Irish they have with their children. Those parents who don't have Irish are keen to learn and use their Irish.
    In the English speaking school , I taught things like art and PE through Irish as much as possible and suddenly parents who had suffered Peig etc. through school themselves became re-enthusiastic about Irish


  • #2006
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    You could just answer the question: do you think not all Irish teachers can speak Irish or that they can but won't?

    Why bother - you've already told me what I think and ignore my questions when they suit you!


  • #2007
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    Most of those parents make an effort to use what Irish they have with their children. Those parents who don't have Irish are keen to learn and use their Irish.
    In the English speaking school , I taught things like art and PE through Irish as much as possible and suddenly parents who had suffered Peig etc. through school themselves became re-enthusiastic about Irish
    Nice anecdote.
    Here's facts: http://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2015/0529/704583-irish-in-decline-in-gaeltacht-areas-report/
    Even in "Gaeltacht" areas it's dying outside the school.


  • #2008
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dughorm wrote: »
    Why bother - you've already told me what I think and ignore my questions when they suit you!
    a.k.a. you refuse to answer a direct question. Would it be because clarifying your own statements in any way would lead to some uncomfortable truths for you by any chance?


  • #2009
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    a.k.a. you refuse to answer a direct question. Would it be because clarifying your own statements in any way would lead to some uncomfortable truths for you by any chance?

    This doesn't seem to bother you in the slightest!


  • #2010
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dughorm wrote: »
    This doesn't seem to bother you in the slightest!
    And lo and behold, you don't seem to be able to quote this mysterious question I have in your imagination avoided.
    Want another chance to quote/fabricate/invent it yeah?


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  • #2011
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    And lo and behold, you don't seem to be able to quote this mysterious question I have in your imagination avoided.
    Want another chance to quote/fabricate/invent it yeah?

    You didn't ask!

    But I don't want to derail the topic - the first 2000 posts were so productive... it would be a terrible pity to engage further....

    I feel this thread has really helped tease out the topic and explore new avenues for Irish learning in the 21st century and helped us to learn aspects of the language we hadn't considered previously. It has exposed simplistic arguments and emotional reactions against the language and encouraged 'New Irish' to make a contribution to the thread and hopefully inspire them to engage with the language! If it has inspired others to re-engage and go beyond their schooling wouldn't that be wonderful!


  • #2012
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dughorm wrote: »
    You didn't ask!
    And we're through the looking glass I see.
    You said I won't answer any questions.
    I ask you to tell me what these questions are I've avoided.
    Now you tell me I never asked what those questions were, and apparently you're still not going to tell me.
    Earth to Dughorn... come in Dughorn...


  • #2013
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,664 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Dughorm wrote: »
    I feel this thread has really helped tease out the topic and explore new avenues for Irish learning in the 21st century and helped us to learn aspects of the language we hadn't considered previously.

    Such as...?

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • #2014
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dughorm wrote: »
    It has exposed simplistic arguments and emotional reactions against the language
    But unfortunately it hasn't overcome any of the logical and reasoned arguments.
    Funny you say those against mandatory Irish are "emotional" when the best anybody has managed to come up with to back it are "it's your identity" and "up the RA!".


  • #2015
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    And we're through the looking glass I see.
    You said I won't answer any questions.
    I ask you to tell me what these questions are I've avoided.
    Now you tell me I never asked what those questions were, and apparently you're still not going to tell me.
    Earth to Dughorn... come in Dughorn...

    Sigh.. I didn't say this either - until we get a translator here I'm going to give this a sos beag.... :)


  • #2016
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    Such as...?
    They're there in the thread alongside those question I apparently haven't answered. Oh, and those perpetual motion machine plans. Yup, they're there alright. I said so.


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  • #2017
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    Such as...?

    I think the discussion about optional Irish was a useful avenue to explore even if after consideration I decided it wasn't compatible with my philosophy.

    I'm thinking of our discussion about food some 50 pages ago or so or even the contributions by Aineoil and Byhookorbycrook - so wise and insightful.

    Indeed your own contribution about identity; how it is determined and our discussion about heritage was most interesting!

    I feel my horizons have been broadened by the discussion!


  • #2018
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dughorm wrote: »
    Sigh.. I didn't say this either - until we get a translator here I'm going to give this a sos beag.... :)
    Hard luck there. You do know I can just go back and quote they bit you are now lying about, right?
    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    a.k.a. you refuse to answer a direct question. Would it be because clarifying your own statements in any way would lead to some uncomfortable truths for you by any chance?
    Dughorm wrote: »
    This doesn't seem to bother you in the slightest!
    So you're saying I refuse to answer questions, but you can't specify them, and now you insist you never said that at all.
    Can you speak any language properly?


  • #2019
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Dan_Solo wrote:
    But none of these are the debunked "simplistic" and "emotional" arguments that you claimed had happened in this thread. Or do you want to lie again and say you never said that now also? (you know I'll just go and quote where you did BTW)

    Sigh, If that was the section of post #2011 that Princess Consuela had actually quoted in post #2013 I would have gladly considered that...

    You're really flying solo now Dan!


  • #2020
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dughorm wrote: »
    Sigh, If that was the section of post #2011 that Princess Consuela had actually quoted in post #2013 I would have gladly considered that...
    Sigh, I deleted that post before you had even finished responding.
    In any case, here's your chance for stardom. Show us these debunked arguments please. Oh, and those questions I've been avoiding that I have proven you have claimed exist while you're at it.
    You've really got your horn or horm or whatever there dug!


  • #2021
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Sigh, I deleted that post before you had even finished responding.
    In any case, here's your chance for stardom. Show us these debunked arguments please. Oh, and those questions I've been avoiding that I have proven you have claimed exist while you're at it.
    You've really got your horn or horm or whatever there dug!

    Why did you delete the post Dan?


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  • #2022
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,505 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Nice anecdote.
    Here's facts: http://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2015/0529/704583-irish-in-decline-in-gaeltacht-areas-report/
    Even in "Gaeltacht" areas it's dying outside the school.
    I am giving the facts for our school.


  • #2023
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    I am giving the facts for our school.
    The "facts" in your school are an anecdote. Do they even qualify as facts?
    The facts in that report are data.
    Whatever you think you see isn't what's happening. Which is more important overall?


  • #2024
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dughorm wrote: »
    Why did you delete the post Dan?
    Any chance you'd show us these questions I have proven you are claiming I am avoiding there dug?
    Or in fact even answer the point I made in the deleted post there dug?
    "Well of course not. But here's some other waffle instead", yes?


  • #2025
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Any chance you'd show us these questions I have proven you are claiming I am avoiding there dug?

    This is turning very inception-esque - how about the last one?! :D


  • #2026
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,664 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Dughorm wrote: »
    I think the discussion about optional Irish was a useful avenue to explore even if after consideration I decided it wasn't compatible with my philosophy.

    I'm thinking of our discussion about food some 50 pages ago or so or even the contributions by Aineoil and Byhookorbycrook - so wise and insightful.

    Indeed your own contribution about identity; how it is determined and our discussion about heritage was most interesting!

    I feel my horizons have been broadened by the discussion!

    Happy to help :D

    I don't feel the optimism though. The biggest challenge the Irish lanaguge faces is simply the stubborness of it's own champions, and I've read nothing to make me think that they've got anything beyond focusing purely on education and keeping it compulsory for the LC and hoping that something miraculously clicks en masse somewhere along the line that hasn't clicked in 80 years.

    Everything else they do is simply preaching to the converted.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • #2027
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dughorm wrote: »
    This is turning very inception-esque - how about the last one?! :D
    Oh "the last one"? You don't want to show me any of these questions you have lied and claimed I have avoided, you are now claiming I am avoiding a question after you have lied about me avoiding questions?
    So dug, where are these questions you were claiming I have avoided when you made the lying claim in the first place?


  • #2028
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Oh "the last one"? You don't want to show me any of these questions you have lied about me avoiding, you are now claiming I am avoiding a question after you have lied about me avoiding questions?
    So dug, where are these questions you were claiming I have avoided when you made the lying claim in the first place?

    Yes, let's start with the most recent one... we are now a good few posts on and you haven't explained why you deleted that post... that's a simple question you haven't answered! Why is that? Is it because of its rank error?


  • #2029
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    I am giving the facts for our school.
    Just for a quick show of hands, is there anybody pro-Irish here who knows the difference between anecdotes and data? Are these the same word in Irish or something?


  • #2030
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dughorm wrote: »
    Yes, let's start with the most recent one...
    Er, actually no.
    You claimed I have avoided questions. Then you lied about making that claim. Then I proved you were lying. I am asking you yet again to show me these questions I had apparently avoided when you made your claim.


  • #2031
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    Happy to help :D

    I don't feel the optimism though. The biggest challenge the Irish lanaguge faces is simply the stubborness of it's own champions, and I've read nothing to make me think that they've got anything beyond focusing purely on education and keeping it compulsory for the LC and hoping that something miraculously clicks en masse somewhere along the line that hasn't clicked in 80 years.

    Everything else they do is simply preaching to the converted.

    That's all quite reasonable - I would see compulsory Irish as a starting point rather than an end in itself. But any significant increase in Irish policy-pushing would require funding that successive governments have decided against - so it looks like Irish is trapped in a stalemate from a structural point of view.

    From the point of view of the learner, there's never been a wider variety of interesting resources - so it depends from what perspective you look at it.


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  • #2032
    DyldeBrill
    Registered Users Posts: 1,406 ✭✭✭DyldeBrill


    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    Happy to help :D

    I don't feel the optimism though. The biggest challenge the Irish lanaguge faces is simply the stubborness of it's own champions, and I've read nothing to make me think that they've got anything beyond focusing purely on education and keeping it compulsory for the LC and hoping that something miraculously clicks en masse somewhere along the line that hasn't clicked in 80 years.

    Everything else they do is simply preaching to the converted.

    Some of the Irish speaking community can be very like this yes, but as I said before this is a minority within a minority and it can give the language a bad name. I've witnessed, and have argued with this type of stubbornness in the past and sometimes things are better left unsaid. There is a need for compromise especially in this day of age.

    I wouldn't say the majority of them preach either (although maybe in your experience they have) and sometimes you have to distinguish between preaching and defending the language and I've found the two can be mixed especially in this thread.


  • #2033
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Er, actually no.
    You claimed I have avoided questions. Then you lied about making that claim. Then I proved you were lying. I am asking you yet again to show me these questions I had apparently avoided when you made your claim.

    Dan, I feel we should let the anonymous boards public decide who's right on this one... more heat than light coming from this...


  • #2034
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dughorm wrote: »
    Dan, I feel we should let the anonymous boards public decide who's right on this one... more heat than light coming from this...
    Yes, all anybody has to do is go to this post
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=96666321&postcount=2018
    And they can see where I quoted your lie. And we've all subsequently witnessed your failure to either admit you lied about making that claim or show were these questions I supposedly avoided are.


  • #2035
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Yes, all anybody has to do is go to this post
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=96666321&postcount=2018
    And they can see where I quoted your lie. And we've all subsequently witnessed your failure to either admit you lied about making that claim or show were these questions I supposedly avoided are.

    Dan, you don't happen to be the alter-ego of that fine poster "tipparetops" who made such a substantive contribution to this thread by any chance?


  • #2036
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dughorm wrote: »
    Dan, you don't happen to be the alter-ego of that fine poster "tipparetops" who made such a substantive contribution to this thread?
    Why, if I was him would that negate the fact that you are a proven liar? If I was him would those questions you claimed I had avoided magically materialise out of thin air?
    This is that personalisation thing at work again, right? If I am person X, then you are right and I am wrong irrespective of facts and logic?


  • #2037
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Why, if I was him would that negate the fact that you are a proven liar? If I was him would those questions you claimed I had avoided magically materialise out of thin air?
    This is that personalisation thing at work again, right? If I am person X, then you are right and I am wrong irrespective of facts and logic?

    Done!


  • #2038
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dughorm wrote: »
    .
    I am not using personalisation to prove any point about the topic of this thread, which is what you are attempting to do.
    I am using quotes from you to prove conclusively that you are a liar, personally.


  • #2039
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dughorm wrote: »
    It has exposed simplistic arguments and emotional reactions against the language
    Could you summarize these, or even show us one of them?
    Without, you know, asking anybody what school they went to or if they are somebody else or some other tripe.


  • #2040
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    I am not using personalisation to prove any point about the topic of this thread, which is what you are attempting to do.
    I am using quotes from you to prove conclusively that you are a liar, personally.

    G'wan cast the first stone there from your high throne of logic - are you ready to talk about the topic at hand now?


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  • #2041
    Demonique
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,830 ✭✭✭Demonique


    Joe Duffy said English was our first language on Live Line today


    Anyway, what year was Pheig (or whatever her name was) dropped from the Curriculum? I have a vague memory of Phegin bocht


  • #2042
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    dughorm wrote:
    It has exposed simplistic arguments and emotional reactions against the language

    Could you summarize these, or even show us one of them?
    Without, you know, asking anybody what school they went to or if they are somebody else or some other tripe.

    Just one?... that's easy
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=95832656&postcount=1087

    I'm sure you don't need me give an example of emotional outbursts?


  • #2043
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Dughorm wrote: »
    G'wan cast the first stone there from your high throne of logic - are you ready to talk about the topic at hand now?
    I was until you claimed I had been avoiding questions, then you lied about making the claim.
    Am I supposed to apologise for using logic now? Well SORREEEEE. Here, have another anecdote...


  • #2044
    kingchess
    Registered Users Posts: 795 ✭✭✭kingchess


    A interesting thread but ....Two posters who seem a wee bit fanatical in their own way now reduced to dragging up posts to see who said (or did not say)what the other poster imagined they said. Oíche mhaith.


  • #2045
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    kingchess wrote: »
    A interesting thread but ....Two posters who seem a wee bit fanatical in their own way now reduced to dragging up posts to see who said (or did not say)what the other poster imagined they said. Oíche mhaith.
    Some people mind when they're lied about. I guess some people don't.


  • #2046
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    Demonique wrote: »
    Joe Duffy said English was our first language on Live Line today


    Anyway, what year was Pheig (or whatever her name was) dropped from the Curriculum? I have a vague memory of Phegin bocht

    1999 I believe


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  • #2047
    osarusan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,695 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    Demonique wrote: »
    Joe Duffy said English was our first language on Live Line today
    Joe Duffy is correct, in any practical sense. English is the first language of the overwhelming majority of our population.


  • #2048
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    osarusan wrote: »
    Joe Duffy is correct, in any practical sense. English is the first language of the overwhelming majority of our population.

    And has been for quite some time.... so what's different about it now?


  • #2049
    osarusan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,695 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    Dughorm wrote: »
    And has been for quite some time.... so what's different about it now?
    I never said there was anything different about it now...just responding to a post.


  • #2050
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,664 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Dughorm wrote: »
    That's all quite reasonable - I would see compulsory Irish as a starting point rather than an end in itself. But any significant increase in Irish policy-pushing would require funding that successive governments have decided against - so it looks like Irish is trapped in a stalemate from a structural point of view.

    From the point of view of the learner, there's never been a wider variety of interesting resources - so it depends from what perspective you look at it.

    Compulsion Irish does not work. It hasnt' worked in 80 years. And now you want tro use it as a "starting point"...??

    All the resources in the world don't work - this is preaching to the connverted again - if the learner is reluctant. And again, your best idea is to force it.

    This post very much illustrates what I mean by "stubborn".
    DyldeBrill wrote: »
    Some of the Irish speaking community can be very like this yes, but as I said before this is a minority within a minority and it can give the language a bad name. I've witnessed, and have argued with this type of stubbornness in the past and sometimes things are better left unsaid. There is a need for compromise especially in this day of age.

    I wouldn't say the majority of them preach either (although maybe in your experience they have) and sometimes you have to distinguish between preaching and defending the language and I've found the two can be mixed especially in this thread.

    Therein lies your problem. The stubborness wins out, the minority wins, the status quo remains.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • #2051
    Dughorm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Dughorm


    osarusan wrote: »
    I never said there was anything different about it now...just responding to a post.

    I think that's an important point though - Irish speakers have been a minority for an awful long time - so whether Joe Duffy pronounces on this or not is irrelevant - this isn't news.

    Significant changes over the past 30 years - such as the blossoming gaelscoil movement on the positive or the decline in the gaeltachts on the other hand- are worth noting however!


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