The Irish language is failing.

Dan_Solo

zeffabelli wrote: »

There should be affirmative action for people not from the Gaeltacht or in Irish speaking schools. Or with foreign parents.

An automatic 20% extra points on the exam.

Also the score should not at all be included for assessments into entry for things like science, engineering or medicine. It has zero bearing in the gifts necessary for these subjects.

This is a quite different argument really. If some people are getting 20% bonuses on relevant subjects, then when shouldn't everybody get them? If there are extra points going you can be sure people will take up Irish just to get them. Will this result in any extra people using the language after the LC though?

zeffabelli

Dan_Solo wrote: »

This is a quite different argument really. If some people are getting 20% bonuses on relevant subjects, then when shouldn't everybody get them? If there are extra points going you can be sure people will take up Irish just to get them. Will this result in any extra people using the language after the LC though?

Because they are at an unfair advantage.

ancapailldorcha

zeffabelli wrote: »

Because they are at an unfair advantage.

It should be removed to level the playing field then.

zeffabelli

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

It should be removed to level the playing field then.

Yes this would be ideal.

Bur given the stubborn sentimentality around it, unlikely to happen.

Dan_Solo

zeffabelli wrote: »

Because they are at an unfair advantage.

That's like saying biology and chemistry are important if you want to do Science in uni, but you should only get bonus points if your parents aren't scientists. What if your parents aren't native English speakers? Bonus points for English?

LuckyLloyd

Dughorm wrote: »

I genuinely don't believe the majority would support optional Irish to be honest...
I'm sure everyone would welcome better teaching of course! And that's not to blame teachers in general - many do inspire a love of the language!

I think you are completely incorrect there on the first part of the above.

And, as for the second part, the educational / teaching boards responsible for the curriculum have shown no ability or interest to positively change the way it is taught. There is clearly a "survivorship" bias at play in the matter. 'I did well in Irish, therefore those who do not do well are simply lazy / disinterested.'

Dughorm wrote: »

It's the practical reality of the situation - taking Irish out would be political dynamite... why do we hear no party talking about it?

You hear no party talking about it because the minority that would oppose it would fight vociferously against it's removal as demonstrated in this thread. There are a small but not insignificant amount of teachers and public sector employees who's jobs are based on the primacy of Irish as a compulsory subject and status as official language. Turkeys aren't going to vote for Christmas. So a government trying to make this change would face potential strike actions and opposition parties seizing on it as an emotive issue. It would be a headache, and ultimately it's a small part of life for most people. Sit through Irish every day in School for 12 years, figure out how to game the exam for the bare minimum and forget all about it for the rest of your life.

But if you put it to a national vote? Come on.

The real problem here is that short sightedness and self interest serves to make the language ever more irrelevant year on year on year. There will come a day where the amount of turkeys left wallowing in the status quo are a small enough number for a government to see the ratio of benefit to hassle in pulling the rug out from under their feet worth it. An optional subject taught as a real living language and therefore engaged in by students who want to be there and can leave school fluent in it could save and grow the language long term.

A really tired topic to be honest.

ancapailldorcha

zeffabelli wrote: »

Yes this would be ideal.

Bur given the stubborn sentimentality around it, unlikely to happen.

Sadly, we can say this about any measure aimed at modernising the Irish education system in relation to teaching Irish.

zeffabelli

Dan_Solo wrote: »

That's like saying biology and chemistry are important if you want to do Science in uni, but you should only get bonus points if your parents aren't scientists. What if your parents aren't native English speakers? Bonus points for English?

If you come from the Gaeltacht you are at an unfair advantage. The rest of the country doesn't have that. So it's essentially native speakers vs second language speakers being assessed by same standards.

Even in English there is a vast difference between native speakers and people who learn it as a second language.

So essentially the government is expecting second language learners to be examined at the same criteria as native speakers.

Not really fair.

Dan_Solo

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

There are a small but not insignificant amount of teachers and public sector employees who's jobs are based on the primacy of Irish as a compulsory subject and status as official language. Turkeys aren't going to vote for Christmas.

It goes higher than that. There are more TDs who are teachers than any other profession represented in The Dail.

ancapailldorcha

Dan_Solo wrote: »

That's like saying biology and chemistry are important if you want to do Science in uni, but you should only get bonus points if your parents aren't scientists. What if your parents aren't native English speakers? Bonus points for English?

The problem is that the science curricula are quite manageable for most pupils while the Irish curriculum is laughably unfit for purpose. In addition, you're not comparing like with like. Irish is language, a primary means of communication. Your statement incorrectly implies that I'd be incessantly teaching my children about biology every minute of the day.

LuckyLloyd

Dan_Solo wrote: »

It goes higher than that. There are more TDs who are teachers than any other profession represented in The Dail.

Yep. And once again, the idea that 'no political party is arguing for a change to optional' is not a compelling argument for why it should be maintained as a mandatory subject.

The Corinthian

zeffabelli wrote: »

So essentially the government is expecting second language learners to be examined at the same criteria as native speakers.

Incentives are not unusual where a government wants to encourage take up of a social asset - why do you think we have tax breaks for married people? That's not exactly fair either.

The principle problem is that it hasn't worked. So all you're left with is a form of discrimination with no benefits.

Dan_Solo

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

The problem is that the science curricula are quite manageable for most pupils while the Irish curriculum is laughably unfit for purpose.

You might say it is worthless at making fluent Irish speakers, but it works perfectly well as a course for passing LC Irish, so this isn't really an issue here.

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

In addition, you're not comparing like with like. Irish is language, a primary means of communication. Your statement incorrectly implies that I'd be incessantly teaching my children about biology every minute of the day.

But they would have some level of unfair advantage all the same. What about English and French? These should be as relevant to a language course in Uni, yes? Why no bonus points for these?

zeffabelli

The Corinthian wrote: »

Incentives are not unusual where a government wants to encourage take up of a social asset - why do you think we have tax breaks for married people? That's not exactly fair either.

The principle problem is that it hasn't worked. So all you're left with is a form of discrimination with no benefits.

It's also counter productive to the selection process.

If a university is using Irish as part of its criteria, it will automatically exclude by virtue of that, some potentially very gifted people who could not make any sense out of the shambles that is Irish language teaching.

It seems to me to be against the self interest of a university to use this as applied criteria.

LuckyLloyd

The curriculum by the way makes some sense if fluency was assumed. So for a native speaker the Higher level Leaving Cert is probably crudely at the level of foundation English. The oral is a doddle; you write a couple of short unchallenging personal essays and you spend a small amount of time looking at the literature on the course. Bang! A1 and 100 points.

Meanwhile, for the vast majority of students that aren't fluent they're being marked on their ability to talk, write and interpret in Irish when they can't even achieve basic grammatically correct sentences to begin with and aren't being taught to achieve same at secondary level in a focussed and successful manner. A nonsense from a simple educational perspective, but from the broader view of state investment and preparation of students for later challenges in life an utter waste of time.

ancapailldorcha

Dan_Solo wrote: »

You might say it is worthless at making fluent Irish speakers, but it works perfectly well as a course for passing LC Irish, so this isn't really an issue here.But they would have some level of unfair advantage all the same. What about English and French? These should be as relevant to a language course in Uni, yes? Why no bonus points for these?

Problem is that a pass is anything from 40-100%. It takes a lot of work to scrape a C for a lot of people.

As regards bonus points for University applications, these should only apply to subjects directly relevant to the course being applied for, ie maths for engineering, biology and chemistry for the life sciences, etc...

zeffabelli

Dan_Solo wrote: »

You might say it is worthless at making fluent Irish speakers, but it works perfectly well as a course for passing LC Irish, so this isn't really an issue here.But they would have some level of unfair advantage all the same. What about English and French? These should be as relevant to a language course in Uni, yes? Why no bonus points for these?

At least French gives you access to European culture and is a contemporary language which makes contributions to journalism, medical journals, fashion, psychology and science.

And yes foreign students who emigrate here and have to take the leaving very should be given either extra time on the exam or automatic extra points.

The Corinthian

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Yep. And once again, the idea that 'no political party is arguing for a change to optional' is not a compelling argument for why it should be maintained as a mandatory subject.

The reality is that public sentiment allegedly still supports obligatory Irish in schools.

Why? In favour is nationalist sentiment. Against, there's not a lot for most people. How much we'd be financially better off is a closely obfuscated secret. And it really affects only two groups; schoolchildren (who have no vote) and parents (who see school time that could be used for other subjects going down the drain). Add to that a very powerful and ideologically (read: financially) motivated gaelgore lobby group and you're going to see an uphill struggle to change public opinion.

zeffabelli wrote: »

If a university is using Irish as part of its criteria, it will automatically exclude by virtue of that, some potentially very gifted people who could not make any sense out of the shambles that is Irish language teaching.

Agreed. It's actually quite daft when you think about it. What exactly does answering a maths or applied maths paper in Irish mean? A native English speaker answering an English exam paper through Irish - ridiculous.

LuckyLloyd

The Corinthian wrote: »

The reality is that public sentiment allegedly still supports obligatory Irish in schools.

Why? In favour is nationalist sentiment. Against, there's not a lot for most people. How much we'd be financially better off is a closely obfuscated secret. And it really affects only two groups; schoolchildren (who have no vote) and parents (who see school time that could be used for other subjects going down the drain). Add to that a very powerful and ideologically (read: financially) motivated gaelgore lobby group and you're going to see an uphill struggle to change public opinion.

Agreed. It's actually quite daft when you think about it. What exactly does answering a maths or applied maths paper in Irish mean? A native English speaker answering an English exam paper through Irish - ridiculous.

I agree with your middle and last paragraph and have posted (a lessor written) version of the middle paragraph in a post above.

But upon what is the first assertion based on?

ancapailldorcha

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I agree with your middle and last paragraph and have posted (a lessor written) version of the middle paragraph in a post above.

But upon what is the first assertion based on?

The furore which is elicited by the merest attempt to modernise the curriculum in relation to the language. There are links above regarding protests when Fine Gael wanted to make it an optional subject for the Leaving Certificate.

LuckyLloyd

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

The furore which is elicited by the merest attempt to modernise the curriculum in relation to the language. There are links above regarding protests when Fine Gael wanted to make it an optional subject for the Leaving Certificate.

A vocal minority motivated by their own economic self interest does not a national majority make!

ancapailldorcha

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

A vocal minority motivated by their own economic self interest does not a national majority make!

So there was a show of support for the idea then?

LuckyLloyd

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

So there was a show of support for the idea then?

We have a poll showing a narrow majority in favour of its retention:

http://www.irishtimes.com/culture/treibh/majority-in-favour-of-retention-of-compulsory-irish-tuairisc-ie-poll-1.1962920

With indicators showing younger / more urban demographics demonstrate the highest levels of opposition. And that's with lobby / interest groups and the status quo existing entirely on one side of the spectrum.

ancapailldorcha

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

We have a poll showing a narrow majority in favour of its retention:

http://www.irishtimes.com/culture/treibh/majority-in-favour-of-retention-of-compulsory-irish-tuairisc-ie-poll-1.1962920

With indicators showing younger / more urban demographics demonstrate the highest levels of opposition. And that's with lobby / interest groups and the status quo existing entirely on one side of the spectrum.

I was referring to demonstrations that were demonstrated in opposition to the proposal.

Dan_Solo

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

We have a poll showing a narrow majority in favour of its retention:

http://www.irishtimes.com/culture/treibh/majority-in-favour-of-retention-of-compulsory-irish-tuairisc-ie-poll-1.1962920

Can anybody find the details of that poll and its methodology? Buried in the desert like most information relating to Irish popularity I'd imagine...

zeffabelli

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

We have a poll showing a narrow majority in favour of its retention:

http://www.irishtimes.com/culture/treibh/majority-in-favour-of-retention-of-compulsory-irish-tuairisc-ie-poll-1.1962920

With indicators showing younger / more urban demographics demonstrate the highest levels of opposition. And that's with lobby / interest groups and the status quo existing entirely on one side of the spectrum.

So it's a cultchie thing?

LuckyLloyd

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I was referring to demonstrations that were demonstrated in opposition to the proposal.

No I understand your point, just wanted to move the conversation along.

I would absolutely expect some level of demonstrations were a government to seriously propose a change of Irish in secondary school to optional. I'm not sure what can be derived from same in terms of a national position on the subject however.

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Can anybody find the details of that poll and its methodology? Buried in the desert like most information relating to Irish popularity I'd imagine...

It was commissioned by Tuairisc so I would expect some massaging of methodology. Clearly the PR release that was picked up by the Times verbatim in that link is very careful in the way the metrics are phrased. A sub headline is 'broad support' but the actual figure (55%) is written in plain English whereas other metrics are numerical.

I'd say such polling numbers considering the absence of any representation or organisation on the 'make it optional' side of the debate are surely a negative for the gaelgaores.

astrofool

zeffabelli wrote: »

It's also counter productive to the selection process.

If a university is using Irish as part of its criteria, it will automatically exclude by virtue of that, some potentially very gifted people who could not make any sense out of the shambles that is Irish language teaching.

It seems to me to be against the self interest of a university to use this as applied criteria.

Well, unless you're a foreign student, we Irish only like to disadvantage ourselves at third level education

Dan_Solo

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

It was commissioned by Tuairisc so I would expect some massaging of methodology. Clearly the PR release that was picked up by the Times verbatim in that link is very careful in the way the metrics are phrased. A sub headline is 'broad support' but the actual figure (55%) is written in plain English whereas other metrics are numerical.

I'd say such polling numbers considering the absence of any representation or organisation on the 'make it optional' side of the debate are surely a negative for the gaelgaores.

My usual rule is that if I can't see the methodology then the data isn't really any use to anybody.

Carlos Orange

Dan_Solo wrote: »

My usual rule is that if I can't see the methodology then the data isn't really any use to anybody.

Would be good to see the raw results at least.

dr.fuzzenstein

astrofool wrote: »

Well, unless you're a foreign student, we Irish only like to disadvantage ourselves at third level education

I see, we're applying the same criteria as in running a business.
Foreign multinational? We'll bend over backwards, bulldoze obstacles, give you blowjobs, don't want to pay tax? Sure! Make yourself at home, the place is yours.

Irish SME? Pay up you bastard, we'll screw you to the wall you worthless piece of sh*t. Don't like it/can't do business? Then fcuk off, we don't want you anyway.

Dughorm

Shep_Dog wrote: »

The state should not fund political groups. Conradh was telling its members to vote against FG candidates when it was suggested that Irish could be optional.

The state funds "political" groups all over the place - what about all the state funding that goes to various charities who all make pre-budget submissions and political statements? to churches? to actual political parties - yes political parties also receive funding from the state....

Why exclude CnaG from this list?

Dughorm

zeffabelli wrote: »

The damage to self esteem by making people feel bad they can't learn this redundant pointless language, when the fault lies at teaching methods is unforgivable. All they are accomplishing is making students feel bad about themselves.

Isn't it terrible! What teaching methods are particularly bad in your opinion?

Dughorm

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

An optional subject taught as a real living language and therefore engaged in by students who want to be there and can leave school fluent in it could save and grow the language long term.

I don't understand why it can't be taught as a real living language as it stands?

I very interesting post btw...

LordSutch

Dughorn;

No/1 In a nutshell, what are your suggestions to keep the Irish language alive?

No/2 How would expand the usage of Irish through the adult Irish population?

No/3 Do you have a "magic bullet" idea that would kick start the Irish language?

No/4 What should change in the curriculum to make the language more appealing?

No/5 Would you consider making Irish a non mandatory subject post Inter Cert?

You know my theory very well, which would be very close to what Fine Gael were proposing a few years back, but if you had the power in your hands, how and what would you do to get the country speaking Irish?

The Randy Riverbeast

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The curriculum by the way makes some sense if fluency was assumed. So for a native speaker the Higher level Leaving Cert is probably crudely at the level of foundation English. The oral is a doddle; you write a couple of short unchallenging personal essays and you spend a small amount of time looking at the literature on the course. Bang! A1 and 100 points.

Meanwhile, for the vast majority of students that aren't fluent they're being marked on their ability to talk, write and interpret in Irish when they can't even achieve basic grammatically correct sentences to begin with and aren't being taught to achieve same at secondary level in a focussed and successful manner. A nonsense from a simple educational perspective, but from the broader view of state investment and preparation of students for later challenges in life an utter waste of time.

This is a large problem I found. Each year the teacher would assume we knew what we were supposed to from the previous year. It was clear we didnt but it went on assuming we did. This would snowball until Im learning of a few stock phrases and generic answer about the theme of love in a poem.

inocybe

The Randy Riverbeast wrote: »

This is a large problem I found. Each year the teacher would assume we knew what we were supposed to from the previous year. It was clear we didnt but it went on assuming we did. This would snowball until Im learning of a few stock phrases and generic answer about the theme of love in a poem.

this is still happening, and is about to start costing me 20euro a week in grinds. Nice cash side earner for irish teachers.

An Ciarraioch

LordSutch

I suspect no single "magic bullet" idea will keep the language alive, rather a number of initiatives would be required at all levels to take Irish off life-support. In terms of primary schools, as suggested earlier, Irish should be taught just as a foreign language would be, eight years should then be enough to develop bilingual fluency. At that level and at secondary also, the Ógras system (which aims to promote the language through sporting and artistic activities) should be rolled out nationwide to introduce a fun element to learning. I'd have no objection to making it option for the Leaving, after all, eleven years will decide attitudes either way. Finally, adults would have more incentive to learn as a community, so Men's Sheds, community centres, sports clubs, and any organisation that has local support should get grants to promote the language if that's what local areas want.

Cyclingtourist

Grants for speaking Irish, what a great idea.

Can't possibly fail.

Carlos Orange

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Irish should be taught just as a foreign language would be, eight years should then be enough to develop bilingual fluency.

How long should it take to develop fluency in a school environment? 11 years of Irish, 5 years of French and 3 years of Latin didn't give me fluency in any of them but I'm probably a low point when it comes to language acquisition.

Iwasfrozen

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

LordSutch

I suspect no single "magic bullet" idea will keep the language alive, rather a number of initiatives would be required at all levels to take Irish off life-support. In terms of primary schools, as suggested earlier, Irish should be taught just as a foreign language would be, eight years should then be enough to develop bilingual fluency. At that level and at secondary also, the Ógras system (which aims to promote the language through sporting and artistic activities) should be rolled out nationwide to introduce a fun element to learning. I'd have no objection to making it option for the Leaving, after all, eleven years will decide attitudes either way. Finally, adults would have more incentive to learn as a community, so Men's Sheds, community centres, sports clubs, and any organisation that has local support should get grants to promote the language if that's what local areas want.

More grants. Great. Can't anyone come up with an idea to save Irish that doesn't involve parasitism? :rolleyes:

AnLonDubh

323 wrote: »

Huge differences.

Was a native speaker but haven't spoke the language in well over 20 years but still usually understand it fine if heard. However, I hardly recognize the language in my kids school books, same with much of what is broadcast. OK, had thought it was just me being rusty, but this thread came to mind and asked a friend who still speaks when he goes home to visit family in west Galway, says exact same, so not just me.

Most native speakers I know say that the language in school books is stilted and artificial, rather than unrecognizable. I mean the standard still follows essentially the same grammar as Munster and Connacht Irish.

As for the dialects, Ulster is reasonably different from the other two.

AnLonDubh

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

More grants. Great. Can't anyone come up with an idea to save Irish that doesn't involve parasitism? :rolleyes:

We could leave control of the schools to Xortax, the great parasite* of Ergor V.

*It's just a name, technically he's a symbiote.

Iwasfrozen

AnLonDubh wrote: »

We could leave control of the schools to Xortax, the great parasite* of Ergor V.

*It's just a name, technically he's a symbiote.

I thought our schools were already under the control of the great parasite?

But seriously guys, find a way to save your language without scabbing the state's money because the government is never going to give enough of a shít to indulge you.

AnLonDubh

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

But seriously guys, find a way to save your language without scabbing the state's money because the government is never going to give enough of a shít to indulge you.

Well, if you don't have the forethought to accept Xandor the mighty, it's hardly our fault.

Wright

323 wrote: »

Was annoyed last November when my daughter, first year at secondary school, who had been OK at Irish through primary school came home from school all stressed out and crying. They had got a new Irish teacher. Teacher had a rant and gave out that their time at primary school had been wasted. They were not speaking right, accent was bad and that they would have to begin from scratch again. I was amazed at the arrogance of this teacher who was not a native speaker who's idea of right comes from summers at the gaeltacht......about 40 miles up the coast.

End result, another bunch of kids with zero interest in Irish (my daughter is concentrating more on French now). Own goal for the Gaeilgeoir's.

This is definitely a problem. I never had a sound Irish teacher, they were all freaks in one way or another.

Shep_Dog

Dughorm wrote: »

I don't understand why it can't be taught as a real living language as it stands?

Because it is not the native or family language of the pupils it is being taught to, and it never will be.

The idea of teaching Irish as a 'living language' to people who already have one (English) is just a manifestation of the Conradh's obsession with reinstating Irish as common tongue of Ireland.

There's nothing wrong with making children aware of Irish, but that there's no need for over a decade of mandatory lessons to do this. It should only take just one hour to teach kids the five Irish phrases they ever will use in their lives to impress their foreign friends. Less, if they were given a laminated card with the phonetics on it.

I am born and bred Irish but I don't think Irish should be taught in school. It's a useless language these days and is only being taught for nostalgia, French or German being taught from primary school would be much more beneficial than a dead language. I never plan on spending much time in a Gaelteacht so I will never need the language, if people want to learn it as a hobby then more power to them but don't force it on kids who have zero interest.

Dughorm

LordSutch wrote: »

Dughorn;

No/1 In a nutshell, what are your suggestions to keep the Irish language alive?
No/2 How would expand the usage of Irish through the adult Irish population?

In addition to my suggestions about education above, I'm only going to suggest some self-funding ideas here because I think we're all agreed throwing money at this isn't going to solve the lack of use of the language

-More people using the Irish they have because they want to in daily conversation (there's no incentive here except people's interest in the language)
-Put Irish language circles (ciorcal comhrá) on a statutory footing - no additional cost here but rather recognition of the good work they do
-Irish language certificate which must be updated every 2 years to show proficiency in Irish for anybody who "makes money" from the government because of Irish, including Irish teachers, primary teachers, bean an tí, translators and Irish speaking civil servants
-Abandon the official standard - embrace diversity
-limit tax relief for film making in Ireland to Irish language productions only
-Close "An Gúm", the government Irish publisher and invest the money saved into a "new initiatives" fund where interested community groups can get funding for Irish language related festivals etc...
-Graffiti as Gaeilge on dilapidated buildings
-Give private sector Irish language initiatives free publicity through viral marketing e.g. Teach na nGealt on Boards, Android & Facebook as Gaeilge
-Twinning of interested groups, areas, universities, gaeltachts etc..., with equivalent groups in the Irish Diaspora who have vigorous Irish learning groups (primarily in US) where exchanges, online discussions etc... could be formed.
-Challenge the current environment where Irish language is treated as being segregated from the rest of Irish culture - it is closely linked to the rhythms of music and dance, the humour, the sport etc... and this needs to be emphasised.



No/3 Do you have a "magic bullet" idea that would kick start the Irish language?

No - I think An Ciarraíoch has explained this well - in any case years of hardened attitudes don't change over night.

No/4 What should change in the curriculum to make the language more appealing?

see my reply about education ideas above

No/5 Would you consider making Irish a non mandatory subject post Inter Cert?

Not at the moment. If all other subjects were optional like an A-Level equivalent approach then yes.

.

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

.

Ah good, you're back.
Now, could you answer this question at the, what, third time of asking:
In the context of your statement that Irish should be mandatory as part of a liberal arts education, why Irish? Why mandatory?