The Irish language is failing.

Dan_Solo

Deleted User wrote: »

and frustrates those who want rid of the language.

How does it frustrate those who want Irish to be optional? It just makes it look like the pro-Irish brigade is shoving Irish down everybody's throat as per usual.

GreaseGunner

Dan_Solo wrote: »

How does it frustrate those who want Irish to be optional? It just makes it look like the pro-Irish brigade is shoving Irish down everybody's throat as per usual.

There's a difference between wanting to be rid of the language and wanting it to be optional in schools.

Some people can put forward a decent case for it being optional, fair enough. Others are calling for it's head.

Dan_Solo

GreaseGunner wrote: »

There's a difference between wanting to be rid of the language and wanting it to be optional in schools.

Some people can put forward a decent case for it being optional, fair enough. Others are calling for it's head.

Go on then, show us anyone here who cares what happens to Irish beyond it not being compulsory in school. Should be easy, right?

GreaseGunner

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Go on then, show us anyone here who cares what happens to Irish beyond it not being compulsory in school. Should be easy, right?

There's over 2000 posts in the thread. Give a scroll back and read a few. I'd imagine there's 1 or 2 people concerned about Irish outside of schools. It's very easy, actually

Dan_Solo

GreaseGunner wrote: »

There's over 2000 posts in the thread. Give a scroll back and read a few. I'd imagine there's 1 or 2 people concerned about Irish outside of schools. It's very easy, actually

So that's a no then, you just fabricated your claim and you can't back it up with a quote at all.
Who would have guessed?

GreaseGunner

Dan_Solo wrote: »

So that's a no then, you just fabricated your claim and you can't back it up with a quote at all.
Who would have guessed?

Here's those quotes you needed

the Irish language could learn a lot from their Celtic cousins across the water in Wales.... The Welsh language has grown in strength since. I live in Wales and hear it every day without fail...and to be honest I am quite jealous that they have that and Ireland doesn't. Too much time is spent on old stories and poems in Irish when more time should be spend on actually being able to have full blown conversation in the language itself.

Aongus Von Bismarck wrote: »

I like the Irish language and hope it doesn't disappear. I'm not very good at reading or speaking it myself, but I have noticed that my favourite Irish writers working with the English language have all come from native or fluent Irish speaking backgrounds.

Summer wind wrote: »

I'm not a fluent Irish speaker but I have enough to get by. I would hate to see the language die out completely because it's ours and ours alone. Hopefully it won't.

Reiver wrote: »

...Having our own language is something distinct at least. Working in my fifth country right now and I always get disbelieving looks when I say most people don't speak Irish in Ireland. I'm always surprised at the vitriol that can be directed towards it at times.

Deleted User wrote: »

Are you fluent? I'd love to be, but I'm not. So I certainly wouldn't foist it on my daughter. I would hope she would like to learn it when she is old enough to make a decision.

pablomakaveli wrote: »

I hated Irish in school but since i left i've come to regret not being able to speak it fluently and learning it is something i hope to achieve at some point.

IrishTrajan wrote: »

I don't speak that much Irish, I actually failed it in my Leaving Cert, but now I'm trying to learn it on my own, and I find it a lot more attractive because I want to learn it

IrishTrajan wrote: »

But it shouldn't be a "hobby"... we should be trying to bring it back.

All of the above are examples of people who care what happens to the Irish language aside from it being compulsory in schools. While I've shortened some to avoid this post being more long winded than it already is, their context wasn't effected. Admittedly many of the above come from personal values with some a more national view, but all are valid. Those are taken from the first 10 of the 148 pages in the thread so it is safe to say there are plenty more to be easily found.

Dan_Solo

GreaseGunner wrote: »

Here's those quotes you needed










All of the above are examples of people who care what happens to the Irish language aside from it being compulsory in schools. While I've shortened some to avoid this post being more long winded than it already is, their context wasn't effected. Admittedly many of the above come from personal values with some a more national view, but all are valid. Those are taken from the first 10 of the 148 pages in the thread so it is safe to say there are plenty more to be easily found.

What you said was:

GreaseGunner wrote: »

Some people can put forward a decent case for it being optional, fair enough. Others are calling for it's head.

So, once more, who in this thread is "calling for it's head"?

GreaseGunner

Dan_Solo wrote: »

What you said was:
So, once more, who in this thread is "calling for it's head"?

The following, all from relatively early in the thread. When I said "calling for it's head" I meant people who seem to feel a very strong hatred towards the language to the point where there wasn't space left for debate, be it pro or anti Irish.

Let it die. We'll mourn it when it's gone.



It's a crap antiquated language mostly supported by posh people and raving loonies from rural Ireland.



If Irish dies out I will be very very happy indeed!



If this sh*t dies out it will be the ultimate revenge for us all on those flatcap-wearing, potato growing culchie retards who revered this poisonous nonsense. If the internet helps it die then I will love the internet even more.
I'll dance a jig if this thing disappears....good riddance.



Irish is a dead useless language forced on irish kids by fascists .
Kill it now, it's not used



Let it die!



Time to let Irish go to the history books and stop wasting money and time on it

kingchess

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Go on then, show us anyone here who cares what happens to Irish beyond it not being compulsory in school. Should be easy, right?

Sorry but is that the question you wanted answered,??And its seems it has been answered by greasegunner,

Dan_Solo

GreaseGunner wrote: »

The following, all from relatively early in the thread. When I said "calling for it's head" I meant people who seem to feel a very strong hatred towards the language to the point where there wasn't space left for debate, be it pro or anti Irish.

Hang on now:

Let it die. We'll mourn it when it's gone.

Does that sound like somebody who actually wants Irish to die?

Time to let Irish go to the history books and stop wasting money and time on it

"Let" isn't the same as "want" either.
Fair enough, you found about 4 real one from months ago out of 1000s of posts... not sure if that proves your case or mine though.

boobar

That's the end of the Tuiseal Ginideach...

Thank f&ck

The Corinthian

Aineoil wrote: »

Why?

Because other than you and a handful of people here no one speaks it.

Because this is an English language forum.

Because it has no relevance to all but a tiny minority of the lives of people in Ireland who are living in a fantasy World because in reality it has relevance only to them.

Asking 'why' is simply another example of the denial that many gaelgores are in. Making the language obligatory and keeping it so despite the fact that this has failed to stem the language's decline is another. All they've succeeded in doing is alienating the majority and maintaining a system of jobs for the buachaillí for themselves.

Those who ask 'why' are the one's who have killed the language, because they're asking a question that has been answered over and over again and have simply stuck their fingers in their ears, drowning out the truth with jingoism.

The language will eventually lose it's mandatory status. In time market pressure will see the jobs cut back bit by bit. And in another generation or two it will reside only in universities thanks to those who ask 'why' when why was staring them in the face all along, but ignored it.

Dughorm

The Corinthian wrote: »

Asking 'why' is simply another example of the denial that many gaelgores are in. Making the language obligatory and keeping it so despite the fact that this has failed to stem the language's decline is another. All they've succeeded in doing is alienating the majority and maintaining a system of jobs for the buachaillí for themselves.

Those who ask 'why' are the one's who have killed the language

That was an impressive rhetorical flourish but to blame the people who speak the language as being the ones who have killed it is a bit harsh no?

100 years ago there was a large portion of the Island that had little or nothing to do with Irish. This continues to the present day outside the educational system.

I would suggest mandatory Irish has helped those interested (and perhaps not interested) achieve a better proficiency in Irish, at least in their late teens, than they otherwise would have had.

I fail to see why a single handed optional Irish strategy, with no other pro-active changes, would serve to further the use of the language in any way. Those who resented (or were taught to resent) learning the language for their 13 years of schooling at present, would resent it as much after their first 11 years in any case I would suspect...

Shep_Dog

Dughorm wrote: »

I would suggest mandatory Irish has helped those interested (and perhaps not interested) achieve a better proficiency in Irish, at least in their late teens, than they otherwise would have had.

That sentence contradicts itself.

Dughorm wrote: »

I fail to see why a single handed optional Irish strategy, with no other pro-active changes, would serve to further the use of the language in any way.

It's a lack of vision that is holding Irish back. Reinstating Irish as common language of Ireland is not a vision it's a delusion.

Making Irish optional plus an apology to all those harmed by Irish-language policies would be tremendously pro-active. It would initiate the healing process of the deep-seated wounds inflicted by Irish-language fanatics on generations of Irish children.

Dughorm

Shep_Dog wrote: »

That sentence contradicts itself.

Please explain

Shep_Dog wrote:

It's a lack of vision that is holding Irish back. Reinstating Irish as common language of Ireland is not a vision it's a delusion.

So it's both a lack of vision and the vision of reinstating Irish as a common language that is holding Irish back?

Shep_Dog wrote:

Making Irish optional plus an apology to all those harmed by Irish-language policies would be tremendously pro-active. It would initiate the healing process of the deep-seated wounds inflicted by Irish-language fanatics on generations of Irish children.

Can you explain what you mean by "harmed" and "deep-seated wounds" by Irish-language policies? Are you suggesting that the way Irish is currently taught is tantamount to child abuse? That is rather flippant and offensive to child abuse survivors no?

The Corinthian

Dughorm wrote: »

That was an impressive rhetorical flourish but to blame the people who speak the language as being the ones who have killed it is a bit harsh no?

Not the people who speak the language. The gaelgores.

They're the one's who identify with an Irish culture that was largely invented as recently as the 1930's. Who tend to work in areas related to the language and that pseudo culture and who benefit financially from the the state support of the language. The one's who ultimately are more interested in the status quo than the language. Who identify with the term gaelgore like a badge.

Not the same as those speaking the language. I know a few of those, who were born and bred in the Gaeltacht, who also consider such gaelgores a bunch of tossers who have irreparably damaged the language.

100 years ago there was a large portion of the Island that had little or nothing to do with Irish. This continues to the present day outside the educational system.

I would suggest mandatory Irish has helped those interested (and perhaps not interested) achieve a better proficiency in Irish, at least in their late teens, than they otherwise would have had.

Wake up and smell the coffee. At the very least the fact that the language is still declining and that mandatory Irish elicits such hostility should have rung a bell even with the dimmest of individuals.

So suggest all you want, but all evidence points to mandatory Irish having helped no one, but those employed to service the Irish language education industry.

Those who resented (or were taught to resent)

"Were taught to resent." Priceless.

You don't get levels of denial like that every day.

Dughorm

The Corinthian wrote: »

Not the people who speak the language. The gaelgores.

They're the one's who identify with an Irish culture that was largely invented as recently as the 1930's. Who tend to work in areas related to the language and that pseudo culture and who benefit financially from the the state support of the language. The one's who ultimately are more interested in the status quo than the language. Who identify with the term gaelgore like a badge.

Not the same as those speaking the language. I know a few of those, who were born and bred in the Gaeltacht, who also consider such gaelgores a bunch of tossers who have irreparably damaged the language.

I don't understand how "the gaelgores" obtain their status and power to irreparably damage the language tbh?

The Corinthian wrote:

Wake up and smell the coffee. At the very least the fact that the language is still declining and that mandatory Irish elicits such hostility should have rung a bell even with the dimmest of individuals.

You mean such hostility in this thread? You would need to explain how this hostility is extrapolated to the population at large...

If you look at the aspect of choice which is there i.e. the option to study honours or pass, those choosing to study higher level Irish consistently outstrips those who choose to study higher level Maths. Why would this be the case given the lack of bonus points and outright "hostility" to Irish you believe exists?

The Corinthian wrote:

So suggest all you want, but all evidence points to mandatory Irish having helped no one, but those employed to service the Irish language education industry.

It helped me to speak and enjoy the language more than I would have otherwise and I come from an English speaking background.

The Corinthian wrote:

"Were taught to resent." Priceless.

You don't get levels of denial like that every day.

Yes, some Irish teaching is so poor imo that the result was that they were taught to resent it.... there's no denial there that's the reality for plenty of students i'm sure.

Shep_Dog

Dughorm wrote: »

Please explain

Your claim that people who wanted to learn Irish were helped by being compelled to do so, is bizarre.

Dughorm wrote: »

So it's both a lack of vision and the vision of reinstating Irish as a common language that is holding Irish back?

The clue is in the word 'reinstate'. That is a regressive attitude. Their vision of the future is to go back to the past. It's not vision, it's a nostalgic fantasy.

Can you explain what you mean by "harmed" and "deep-seated wounds" by Irish-language policies? Are you suggesting that the way Irish is currently taught is tantamount to child abuse? That is rather flippant and offensive to child abuse survivors no?

There are varying degrees and forms of child abuse. But, I know that it is usually difficult for abusers to recognise the harm they do, they usually find a way of rationalising it. Even today, the victims will say they support Irish in order to avoid further abuse from Irish-language fanatics.

Dughorm

Shep_Dog wrote: »

Your claim that people who wanted to learn Irish were helped by being compelled to do so, is bizarre.

First, that sentence doesn't contradict itself.

Second, in the current retrograde "points race" it is quite likely people who wanted to learn the language would feel obligated to pick what might be considered to be a "points-friendly" subject to ensure they get the points required for their course. Nothing bizarre about that, simple forces of educational capitalism at work...

Shep_Dog wrote:

There are varying degrees and forms of child abuse. But, I know that it is usually difficult for abusers to recognise the harm they do, they usually find a way of rationalising it. Even today, the victims will say they support Irish in order to avoid further abuse from Irish-language fanatics.

I can't believe you are standing over this child abuse analogy?! Is there some aspect of the Irish syllabus that constitutes child abuse or are you referring to abusive teachers?

Aineoil

The Corinthian wrote: »

Because other than you and a handful of people here no one speaks it.

Because this is an English language forum.

Because it has no relevance to all but a tiny minority of the lives of people in Ireland who are living in a fantasy World because in reality it has relevance only to them.

Asking 'why' is simply another example of the denial that many gaelgores are in. Making the language obligatory and keeping it so despite the fact that this has failed to stem the language's decline is another. All they've succeeded in doing is alienating the majority and maintaining a system of jobs for the buachaillí for themselves.

Those who ask 'why' are the one's who have killed the language, because they're asking a question that has been answered over and over again and have simply stuck their fingers in their ears, drowning out the truth with jingoism.

The language will eventually lose it's mandatory status. In time market pressure will see the jobs cut back bit by bit. And in another generation or two it will reside only in universities thanks to those who ask 'why' when why was staring them in the face all along, but ignored it.

I just asked "why" I could not post in Irish here. I got my answer and was very happy with it. It seems fair to me. But why are you attacking me?

Reiver

The Corinthian wrote: »

Not the people who speak the language. The gaelgores.

They're the one's who identify with an Irish culture that was largely invented as recently as the 1930's. Who tend to work in areas related to the language and that pseudo culture and who benefit financially from the the state support of the language. The one's who ultimately are more interested in the status quo than the language. Who identify with the term gaelgore like a badge.

Not the same as those speaking the language. I know a few of those, who were born and bred in the Gaeltacht, who also consider such gaelgores a bunch of tossers who have irreparably damaged the language.

Wake up and smell the coffee. At the very least the fact that the language is still declining and that mandatory Irish elicits such hostility should have rung a bell even with the dimmest of individuals.

So suggest all you want, but all evidence points to mandatory Irish having helped no one, but those employed to service the Irish language education industry.

"Were taught to resent." Priceless.

You don't get levels of denial like that every day.

Gaeilgeoir just means a speaker of Irish.

feargale

LordSutch wrote: »

1. English is our 1st spoken language, Polish is the 2nd most spoken language in the state, with Irish (the official language of the state), falling behind as the 3rd most spoken language in the state!

Polish is also the second language of the United Kingdom, with about half a million speakers. Polish has no official recognition in the UK, while Welsh and Scottish Gaelic
have regional recognition. You will find similarly in many European countries e.g. re Frisian in the Netherlands and Romansch in Switzerland.
Of course, recent developments relating to Calais etc. could mean that at some time in the future speakers of Syrian Arabic or Pashtu might outnumber English speakers in Ireland. When that happens I'm sure we will all favour relegating English to secondary status. Right?

Shep_Dog

Dughorm wrote: »

I can't believe you are standing over this child abuse analogy?! Is there some aspect of the Irish syllabus that constitutes child abuse or are you referring to abusive teachers?

It's understandable that you cannot believe it. It's called 'denial' and it is very difficult for people to overcome it once they've convinced themselves that what they are doing is right. It takes courage to critically examine the effects of ones actions.

The implicit message in Irish language promotion is that those who are not interested in learning Irish are inferior culturally to those who do and are to be as despised as people from Sussex. This is an attack on the self-esteem of children. No doubt, Irish enthusiasts think that it's for the good of the country, and the children 'enjoy it'. That's how they rationalise their actions. But once the children escape the regime, they speak their native English, but claim to 'support' Irish, just in case they might be denounced as 'un-Irish'

Why is it that the Irish-language movement wants the reinstate Irish as our common tongue? What does this say about their attitude towards English and those who speak it?

The Irish language movement is motivated by negativity towards modern Irish society and this is why it is isolated and shunned.

ancapailldorcha

Shep_Dog wrote: »

The implicit message in Irish language promotion is that those who are not interested in learning Irish are inferior culturally to those who do and are to be as despised as people from Sussex. This is an attack on the self-esteem of children. No doubt, Irish enthusiasts think that it's for the good of the country, and the children 'enjoy it'. That's how they rationalise their actions. But once the children escape the regime, they speak their native English, but claim to 'support' Irish, just in case they might be denounced as 'un-Irish'

I live in Sussex. It's lovely!!

The Corinthian

Dughorm wrote: »

I don't understand how "the gaelgores" obtain their status and power to irreparably damage the language tbh?

It's been repeatedly explained. Do a word search for the term 'status quo'.

You mean such hostility in this thread? You would need to explain how this hostility is extrapolated to the population at large...

It would be amplified in this thread, but you would probably have to travel in very rarefied circles not to realize that for the vast majority the language is irrelevant and for a significant number this spills out into antipathy.

You can deny that reality exists, but I had pointed out that one of the problem with gaelgores was their capacity for denial.

If you look at the aspect of choice which is there i.e. the option to study honours or pass, those choosing to study higher level Irish consistently outstrips those who choose to study higher level Maths.

What exactly does that prove? That higher level math is a harder subject to get points in perhaps? Plenty of people doing Home Economics too, does that means we have the most domesticated teenagers in Europe? I'm afraid, you'll have to do better than that.

It helped me to speak and enjoy the language more than I would have otherwise and I come from an English speaking background.

Good for you. You do know you're in the minority?

Yes, some Irish teaching is so poor imo that the result was that they were taught to resent it.... there's no denial there that's the reality for plenty of students i'm sure.

I'm afraid that there is denial there, because you are denying the very possibility that the mandatory nature of the language would create any resentment.

The problem with Irish is unlike English and maths - the other two mandatory subjects - it is an open secret that once school is finished, it simply will not be relevant to one's life at all. Even as a schoolkid, one can grasp that they will still be using English and maths in everyday life, even if not Shakespeare or calculus. But Irish? I can safely say, I have had neither then need nor opportunity to use it since I did my leaving cert over 25 years ago.

That it is taught badly is no doubt a problem, but even were it taught well, it doesn't change the fact that Ireland is an Anglophone nation. Other than ever-shrinking communities in the Gaeltacht, the only people who speak the language are those few who service an industry designed only to perpetuate itself.

Which brings us back to the gaelgores. A small group who will are in receipt of grants and artificial jobs designed to perpetuate their own cast. Who have been in denial about the language's decline for decades, continue to be so, and appear only interested in maintaining the status quo that protects those grants and jobs.

And even you have offered nothing other than what is a minority opinion here and suggested nothing that would endanger the gravy train.

Aineoil wrote: »

I just asked "why" I could not post in Irish here. I got my answer and was very happy with it. It seems fair to me. But why are you attacking me?

I was highlighting that to ask 'why' required a frightening level of disconnect from reality, which is not uncommon among many of the gaelgore cast.

Reiver wrote: »

Gaeilgeoir just means a speaker of Irish.

No. It has long become something else; a cast within Irish society fuelled by a combination of self-interest and jingoism. Were it simply just an Irish speaker, you would not have them gravitating towards certain political parties or even feeling the need to wear a little badge to highlight their identity.

Dan_Solo

feargale wrote: »

Polish is also the second language of the United Kingdom, with about half a million speakers. Polish has no official recognition in the UK, while Welsh and Scottish Gaelic
have regional recognition. You will find similarly in many European countries e.g. re Frisian in the Netherlands and Romansch in Switzerland.
Of course, recent developments relating to Calais etc. could mean that at some time in the future speakers of Syrian Arabic or Pashtu might outnumber English speakers in Ireland. When that happens I'm sure we will all favour relegating English to secondary status. Right?

Well if your proposal is that we only have mandatory Irish within Galetacht areas then what can I say, great idea.

ancapailldorcha

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Well if your proposal is that we only have mandatory Irish within Galetacht areas then what can I say, great idea.

As long as they pay for it themselves.

dr.fuzzenstein

feargale wrote: »

Polish is also the second language of the United Kingdom, with about half a million speakers. Polish has no official recognition in the UK, while Welsh and Scottish Gaelic
have regional recognition. You will find similarly in many European countries e.g. re Frisian in the Netherlands and Romansch in Switzerland.
Of course, recent developments relating to Calais etc. could mean that at some time in the future speakers of Syrian Arabic or Pashtu might outnumber English speakers in Ireland. When that happens I'm sure we will all favour relegating English to secondary status. Right?

Well, I wonder how many of these other marginal, irrelevant and regional languages are compulsory nationwide in their country?
These languages are a nice anachronism, but to force them on everyone nationwide is simply braindead and will do nothing but foster resentment.

zeffabelli

It's funny they didn't learn the historical lesson that forcing people to learn a language they don't want to learn, only breeds resentment.

It would seem that the Irish of all people would be a little more understanding of how that works out.

LordSutch

...and another thing.

What about kids Irish homework (in relation to them speaking Irish)?

I ask this seeing as so few people actually speak Irish, so how can our children be expected to do Irish homework which involves speaking and practising the use of the Irish language (as a spoken language)?

Obviously we have the cupla focal, but that's not much good at helping our kids to actually practice speaking and conversing in Irish in a home environment!

For us as a family, Irish is only ever heard in school, or the odd time on Tele.

_Kaiser_

LordSutch wrote: »

...and another thing.

What about kids Irish homework (in relation to them speaking Irish)?

I ask this seeing as so few people actually speak Irish, so how can our children be expected to do Irish homework which involves speaking and practising the use of the Irish language (as a spoken language)?

Obviously we have the cupla focal, but that's not much good at helping our kids to actually practice speaking and conversing in Irish in a home environment!

For us as a family, Irish is only ever heard in school, or the odd time on Tele.

Valid point... I myself have no Irish at all (native born but got an exemption from the Department thanks to a few years in Holland when I was 9), but I have a little fella now myself and the time will soon come when he'll be looking for Daddy to help with homework.

Unfortunately Daddy will be of zero use to him with his Irish - if it were up to Daddy he wouldn't be learning it either, or having to do "religion" for that matter.

Both subjects that should no longer be forced on kids in schools. Teach it to them at home, take them to Church or send them to the Gaeltact but the huge amount of hours dedicated to these 2 subjects could (and should!) be better spent elsewhere.

feargale

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

As long as they pay for it themselves.

What exactly does that mean? Every time Paraic in Connemara gets a bill in Irish for water charges he should get an additional bill for the letter of demand? That is, or was until recently the Chinese system. When a convict was executed his family received a bill for the bullet.

Dan_Solo

feargale wrote: »

What exactly does that mean? Every time Paraic in Connemara gets a bill in Irish for water charges he should get an additional bill for the letter of demand? That is, or was until recently the Chinese system. When a convict was executed his family received a bill for the bullet.

Are you are equating using Irish with having a family member executed?

ancapailldorcha

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Are you are equating using Irish with having a family member executed?

Evidently so. I was saying that if Gaeltacht residents want compulsory Irish shoved down their childrens' throats then they should pay for it themselves. How Feargale managed to extrapolate this to the point where it became relevant to Irish Water or the Chinese justice system.

dr.fuzzenstein

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Evidently so. I was saying that if Gaeltacht residents want compulsory Irish shoved down their childrens' throats then they should pay for it themselves. How Feargale managed to extrapolate this to the point where it became relevant to Irish Water or the Chinese justice system.

Well, according to some Irish Water is worse than the Khmer Rouge bashing people's heads in with rusty hammers. Oh yeah, it really is like living in a Siberian gulag. :rolleyes:
/off topic

feargale

quote="Dan_Solo;96746291"]Are you are equating using Irish with having a family member executed?[/quote]

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Evidently so. I was saying that if Gaeltacht residents want compulsory Irish shoved down their childrens' throats then they should pay for it themselves. How Feargale managed to extrapolate this to the point where it became relevant to Irish Water or the Chinese justice system.

Come on, now. You know very well that I was comparing principle, not magnitude. But never miss an opportunity to express horror. Such is the level of discourse on Boards.

"if Gaeltacht residents want compulsory Irish shoved down their childrens' throats" - What an extraordinary way of putting things. How many of these abused Gaeltacht children do you know, who had Irish shoved down their throats by their Irish-speaking parent? So, now we know how to raise our kids. When baby utters its first syllable you say " Baby, here's a list of the world's languages. Which one would you like us to speak to you?

Given the foregoing, the horror ( genuine, no doubt ) expressed at the mention of Irish Water is hardly surprising. ( I've paid mine, by the way. ) Ok, in deference to your sensitivities, substitute any government communication you like. Then, hopefully, you will get my point. Otherwise, you will have succeeded in derailing my point.

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Well, according to some Irish Water is worse than the Khmer Rouge bashing people's heads in with rusty hammers. Oh yeah, it really is like living in a Siberian gulag. :rolleyes:
/off topic

Off topic indeed. Thank you for thanking it, Mod.

osarusan

feargale wrote: »

But never miss an opportunity to express horror. Such is the level of discourse on Boards.

Such is your level of discourse on boards that you somehow contrived to engineer a comparison with Chinese executions into the thread.

And then you criticise posts that highlight the complete stupidity of your comment.

What a joke.

feargale

zeffabelli wrote: »

It's funny they didn't learn the historical lesson that forcing people to learn a language they don't want to learn, only breeds resentment.

It would seem that the Irish of all people would be a little more understanding of how that works out.

This post I agree with in principle. Of course if certain people are to serve Irish-speaking people in a particular capacity it follows that a knowledge of Irish would be required. But in general yes, I agree with you. In fact if I had my way I would prohibit learning of the language by those who despise it, and probably their children and grandchildren too.

feargale

osarusan wrote: »

Such is your level of discourse on boards that you somehow conrived to engineer a comparison with Chinese executions into the thread.

And then you criticise posts that highlight the complete stupidity of your comment.

What a joke.

Read the previous post again.

osarusan

feargale wrote: »

Read the previous post again.

I read it - it was farcical back-tracking that will fool nobody.

Iwasfrozen

feargale wrote: »

What exactly does that mean? Every time Paraic in Connemara gets a bill in Irish for water charges he should get an additional bill for the letter of demand?

Yep. That or another small layer of progressive tax deducted from his wages.

It's the fairest system. He who wants additional services pays for them.

feargale

quote="feargale;96745782"]What exactly does that mean? Every time Paraic in Connemara gets a bill in Irish he should get an additional bill for the letter of demand? [/quote]

Now, would you all drop the faux horror and answer the question please.

I've even taken out the piece that caused such offence to your preciousness.

feargale

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

As long as they pay for it themselves.

Lord Sutch, I would like to get your take on this.

Dughorm

Shep_Dog wrote: »

It's understandable that you cannot believe it. It's called 'denial' and it is very difficult for people to overcome it once they've convinced themselves that what they are doing is right. It takes courage to critically examine the effects of ones actions.

The implicit message in Irish language promotion is that those who are not interested in learning Irish are inferior culturally to those who do and are to be as despised as people from Sussex. This is an attack on the self-esteem of children. No doubt, Irish enthusiasts think that it's for the good of the country, and the children 'enjoy it'. That's how they rationalise their actions. But once the children escape the regime, they speak their native English, but claim to 'support' Irish, just in case they might be denounced as 'un-Irish'

Why is it that the Irish-language movement wants the reinstate Irish as our common tongue? What does this say about their attitude towards English and those who speak it?

The Irish language movement is motivated by negativity towards modern Irish society and this is why it is isolated and shunned.

Sorry where is the child abuse in anything you have said here? Is it the "attack on self-esteem"? We had better hide the dictionaries lads :rolleyes:

feargale

osarusan wrote: »

I read it - it was farcical back-tracking that will fool nobody.

What a silly, immature post.
I wont dignify this by asking where the back-tracking is or how your faux-horrified self might be fooled.

feargale

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Yep. That or another small layer of progressive tax deducted from his wages.

It's the fairest system. He who wants additional services pays for them.

Thank you, frozen one. We have finally had a civil, cogent answer to my question. I will leave it at that for the moment because I very much want to get Lord Sutch's response if he's around.
Meantime I take it, Frozen that your reasoning is that these people choose to speak Irish rather than English. Am I right?

Iwasfrozen

feargale wrote: »

Thank you, frozen one. We have finally had a civil, cogent answer to my question. I will leave it at that for the moment because I very much want to get Lord Sutch's response if he's around.
Meantime I take it, Frozen that your reasoning is that these people choose to speak Irish rather than English. Am I right?

Nothing to do with what language they speak, they should carry the cost of additional services demanded.

DanielODonnell

I have no passion for the native tongue but I would use it sometimes simply to wind english people up. whenever they hear irish or scots gaelic they revert back to their native english ways of looking down their noses at peasant gaels.

Dughorm

The Corinthian wrote: »

It's been repeatedly explained. Do a word search for the term 'status quo'.

No it hasn't - I'll ask it again - where do the "gaelgores" (who aren't your typical Irish speaker apparently) get their power to irreparably damage the language? Who are these people with such power to destroy a language?

The Corinthian wrote: »

It would be amplified in this thread, but you would probably have to travel in very rarefied circles not to realize that for the vast majority the language is irrelevant and for a significant number this spills out into antipathy.

Apathy perhaps, antipathy is a totally different standard - please justify it...

The Corinthian wrote: »

You can deny that reality exists, but I had pointed out that one of the problem with gaelgores was their capacity for denial.

How convenient! Do all your invented groups also have this special capacity for denial, especially self-denial!

The Corinthian wrote: »

What exactly does that prove? That higher level math is a harder subject to get points in perhaps? Plenty of people doing Home Economics too, does that means we have the most domesticated teenagers in Europe? I'm afraid, you'll have to do better than that.

Not when your charge was that our nation is full of people who are brimming with antipathy for the language...strange that they consistently choose to do honours isn't it?! And more than another mandatory subject at that!

The Corinthian wrote: »

Good for you. You do know you're in the minority?

Irish speakers have been a minority for a while now...

The Corinthian wrote: »

I'm afraid that there is denial there, because you are denying the very possibility that the mandatory nature of the language would create any resentment.

There may be resentment towards mandatory English or Maths as well. So what?

The Corinthian wrote: »

The problem with Irish is unlike English and maths - the other two mandatory subjects - it is an open secret that once school is finished, it simply will not be relevant to one's life at all. Even as a schoolkid, one can grasp that they will still be using English and maths in everyday life, even if not Shakespeare or calculus. But Irish? I can safely say, I have had neither then need nor opportunity to use it since I did my leaving cert over 25 years ago.

Have you had the need or opportunity to use your Shakespeare? Why?

The Corinthian wrote: »

Which brings us back to the gaelgores. A small group who will are in receipt of grants and artificial jobs designed to perpetuate their own cast. Who have been in denial about the language's decline for decades, continue to be so, and appear only interested in maintaining the status quo that protects those grants and jobs.

Name and shame please - if they exist you can surely name some?

Iwasfrozen

DanielODonnell wrote: »

I have no passion for the native tongue but I would use it sometimes simply to wind english people up. whenever they hear irish or scots gaelic they revert back to their native english ways of looking down their noses at peasant gaels.

What? All 55,000,000 of them?! That's quite the stereotype you've fabricated.