The Irish language is failing.

DanielODonnell

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

What? All 55,000,000 of them?! That's quite the stereotype you've fabricated.

All English adults are roughly the same, they all hide behind their patriotism to form one united British Nationalist identity which is protective against any wrong doing the English have done.

Dughorm

DanielODonnell wrote: »

All English adults are roughly the same...

No, they're not.

DanielODonnell

Dughorm wrote: »

No, they're not.

yes sorry i meant to exclude the asian population and some of the irish catholic-english

Dan_Solo

DanielODonnell wrote: »

All English adults are roughly the same, they all hide behind their patriotism to form one united British Nationalist identity which is protective against any wrong doing the English have done.

Can't tell if serious...

DanielODonnell

africans too

Dan_Solo

feargale wrote: »

What a silly, immature post.
I wont dignify this by asking where the back-tracking is or how your faux-horrified self might be fooled.

I won't dignify this by asking the questions I am now about to ask...

Iwasfrozen

DanielODonnell wrote: »

All English adults are roughly the same,

No. Roughly 43 million adults do not conform to your fabrication. Get out more. Talk to more English people if that's what you genuinely believe.

Carlos Orange

DanielODonnell wrote: »

yes sorry i meant to exclude the asian population and some of the irish catholic-english

What about the English Catholic English?

Shep_Dog

Dughorm wrote: »

Sorry where is the child abuse in anything you have said here? Is it the "attack on self-esteem"? We had better hide the dictionaries lads :rolleyes:

Attacking the self-esteem of a child is emotional abuse, also known as 'child abuse'. No need for a dictionary, it's a matter of morals.

It's often the case that abusers don't recognise what they do is harmful, and quite often too, victims are too young to understand what is being done to them and accept it as 'normal'. Some grow up with the same attitudes as their abusers.

This is why we have so many people in this country who say they 'support' Irish (after 13 years of coercion) but, don't speak the language or make any effort to learn it.

This toxic result is the responsibility of the Irish-language movement and it would be very constructive if they acknowledged the harm done to children and the language. Then, maybe, fertile ground can be found to nurture the Irish language.

DanielODonnell

they are the same as the rest of the english, Christianity is weak in England and it isn't closely linked with culture.

The last english catholic I met said she was a fan of Thatcher,

Dan_Solo

psinno wrote: »

What about the English Catholic English?

What about the Irish, Catholic, Irish and spam? There's not much spam in that.

ancapailldorcha

feargale wrote: »

Come on, now. You know very well that I was comparing principle, not magnitude. But never miss an opportunity to express horror. Such is the level of discourse on Boards.

"if Gaeltacht residents want compulsory Irish shoved down their childrens' throats" - What an extraordinary way of putting things. How many of these abused Gaeltacht children do you know, who had Irish shoved down their throats by their Irish-speaking parent? So, now we know how to raise our kids. When baby utters its first syllable you say " Baby, here's a list of the world's languages. Which one would you like us to speak to you?

Given the foregoing, the horror ( genuine, no doubt ) expressed at the mention of Irish Water is hardly surprising. ( I've paid mine, by the way. ) Ok, in deference to your sensitivities, substitute any government communication you like. Then, hopefully, you will get my point. Otherwise, you will have succeeded in derailing my point.

Off topic indeed. Thank you for thanking it, Mod.

Again with the straw men. You brought up prisoners, not myself. You mean to say that these children can opt out of learning the language then if it is not being shoved down their throats?

LordSutch

Can the real Daniel O'Donnell please stand up

The one on here is obviously on a wind-up mission, and he has to a degree succeeded in taking this thread off on a tangent, I suggest we ignore him and his crazed rantings (which have nothing to do with the thread topic).

LordSutch

feargale wrote: »

Lord Sutch, I would like to get your take on this.

OK, but give me the question again, so that its crystal clear for me.

DanielODonnell

Lord-Sutch the classic Michael Collins pro-treaty man, i picture you with the legs crossed sitting watching the 10 o clock ITV news whilst reading the Guardian

feargale

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Well if your proposal is that we only have mandatory Irish within Galetacht areas then what can I say, great idea.

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

As long as they pay for it themselves.

Sorry, Lord Sutch. I was away. Do you agree or disagree with capaill's response?

feargale

DanielODonnell wrote: »

Lord-Sutch the classic Michael Collins pro-treaty man, i picture you with the legs crossed sitting watching the 10 o clock ITV news whilst reading the Guardian

Now, Sutch, time to come out. Were you with the Big Fella at Beal na Blath?

Dughorm

Shep_Dog wrote: »

Attacking the self-esteem of a child is emotional abuse, also known as 'child abuse'. No need for a dictionary, it's a matter of morals.

Just to be clear, do you think it's immoral for children to have to learn Irish in school?

feargale

DanielODonnell wrote: »

All English adults are roughly the same, they all hide behind their patriotism to form one united British Nationalist identity which is protective against any wrong doing the English have done.

That's what the Chinese man said in court in London when he was asked if the defendant was the man who assaulted him : " I don't know. All Englishmen look the same to me."

feargale

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Again with the straw men. You brought up prisoners, not myself. You mean to say that these children can opt out of learning the language then if it is not being shoved down their throats?

What language were you able to opt out of at birth, or are you the character in Brian O'Nolan's At Swim Two Birds who was forty years of age when he was born?

LordSutch

feargale wrote: »

Sorry, Lord Sutch. I was away. Do you agree or disagree with capaill's response?

Well my response would be that the state should pay for maintaining the Irish language all over the country, especially in Gaeltacht areas. Indeed why not boost the Irish speaking image of the west, while simultaneously dropping mandatory Irish in the rest of the country?

I would hate to see the Irish language disappear altogether, but this business of trying to submerge the non speaking majority over several generations (with very limited return) can only result in a negative outcome, ie very little take-up in adopting Irish as our 1st spoken language! plus lots of unneeded and unnecessary negativity. After eighty-ninty years only a sisemic shift could 'kick start' the resurrection of the language in the general population, and I just don't see that happening, but I would like to see it thrive as a minority non mandatory language.

This isn't Wales.

feargale

DanielODonnell wrote: »

I have no passion for the native tongue but I would use it sometimes simply to wind english people up. whenever they hear irish or scots gaelic they revert back to their native english ways of looking down their noses at peasant gaels.

quote="DanielODonnell;96749936"]All English adults are roughly the same, they all hide behind their patriotism to form one united British Nationalist identity which is protective against any wrong doing the English have done.[/quote]

Daniel, your posts are as useful to any cause, let it be Irish language, equality of esteem or whatever as Gregory Campbell is to Unionism, i.e. an embarrassment.

feargale

LordSutch wrote: »

Well my response would be that the state should pay for maintaining the Irish language all over the country, especially in Gaeltacht areas. Indeed why not boost the Irish speaking image of the west, while simultaneously dropping mandatory Irish in the rest of the country?

I would hate to see the Irish language disappear altogether, but this business of trying to submerge the non speaking majority over several generations (with very limited return) can only result in a negative outcome, ie very little take-up in adopting Irish as our 1st spoken language! plus lots of unneeded and unnecessary negativity. After eighty-ninty years only a sisemic shift could 'kick start' the resurrection of the language in the general population, and I just don't see that happening, but I would like to see it thrive as a minority non mandatory language.

This isn't Wales.

Well said, Sutch. I am largely in agreement with you. It is so, so pointless to foist Irish on people who don't want it. Incidentally, rather than promote Irish, I would prioritise ensuring that those who want Irish language services have them. Irish is never in the future going to become once more the majority language of this country. I read a book some time ago which had a chapter by a lady from Connemara giving her perspective on growing up in an Irish language environment and the cultural difficulties she now experiences in a different environment. Whenever I lay my hands on the book these threads are gone zombie. I hope to find it sometime when one of these threads is ongoing so that I can post the reference.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Yep. That or another small layer of progressive tax deducted from his wages.

It's the fairest system. He who wants additional services pays for them.

Now Frozenman, would you apply the same principle to Protestant schools? Let those who want additional services pay for them? We are talking about minorities, are'nt we?

Shep_Dog

Dughorm wrote: »

Just to be clear, do you think it's immoral for children to have to learn Irish in school?

It is immoral and wrong for children to be abused as part of the 'Main Aim' of Irish language fanatics to reinstate Irish as the common language of Ireland.

Specifically, I think it wrong to force native English-speaking children to speak Irish and for them to be told that they are not proper Irish people unless they do. It is also wrong to beat children for failing to speak Irish. It is wrong too, for their English surnames to be transformed into bogus Irish surnames and for their English-speaking heritage to be denigrated by Irish teachers.

inocybe

LordSutch wrote: »

Well my response would be that the state should pay for maintaining the Irish language all over the country, especially in Gaeltacht areas. Indeed why not boost the Irish speaking image of the west, while simultaneously dropping mandatory Irish in the rest of the country?

Howls of protest from the west! Up the road from me is a nice shiny Gaeltacht sign, I've never met an Irish speaker yet. No doubt a few families tucked away somewhere managed to get it designated to get a grant.

feargale

inocybe wrote: »

Howls of protest from the west! Up the road from me is a nice shiny Gaeltacht sign, I've never met an Irish speaker yet. No doubt a few families tucked away somewhere managed to get it designated to get a grant.

Claregalway?

inocybe

feargale wrote: »

Claregalway?

No, but there's another example.

ancapailldorcha

feargale wrote: »

What language were you able to opt out of at birth, or are you the character in Brian O'Nolan's At Swim Two Birds who was forty years of age when he was born?

You're making absolutely no sense at all.

I had to learn English as it's the national language and Irish in vain because... well... there really isn't a single good reason.

An Ciarraioch

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

You're making absolutely no sense at all.

I had to learn English as it's the national language and Irish in vain because... well... there really isn't a single good reason.

Still, some of it must have sunk in, given your choice of username!

LuckyLloyd

The Corinthian wrote: »

Because other than you and a handful of people here no one speaks it.

Because this is an English language forum.

Because it has no relevance to all but a tiny minority of the lives of people in Ireland who are living in a fantasy World because in reality it has relevance only to them.

Asking 'why' is simply another example of the denial that many gaelgores are in. Making the language obligatory and keeping it so despite the fact that this has failed to stem the language's decline is another. All they've succeeded in doing is alienating the majority and maintaining a system of jobs for the buachaillí for themselves.

Those who ask 'why' are the one's who have killed the language, because they're asking a question that has been answered over and over again and have simply stuck their fingers in their ears, drowning out the truth with jingoism.

The language will eventually lose it's mandatory status. In time market pressure will see the jobs cut back bit by bit. And in another generation or two it will reside only in universities thanks to those who ask 'why' when why was staring them in the face all along, but ignored it.

Strong post. Totally agree - a savage defeat lurks in the not too distant future, a defeat of selfish ignorance.

Dughorm

Shep_Dog wrote: »

It is wrong too, for their English surnames to be transformed into bogus Irish surnames and for their English-speaking heritage to be denigrated by Irish teachers.

I've seen this happen actually in a school setting! But are they trying to be inclusive perhaps?

Shep_Dog wrote: »

It is also wrong to beat children for failing to speak Irish.

This statement is completely ridiculous... are you suggesting this happens today?

Dughorm

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Strong post. Totally agree - a savage defeat lurks in the not too distant future, a defeat of selfish ignorance.

This is an interesting article actually - it's about use of the Irish language by Gaeltacht businesses.

It contains a revealing quote which would certainly contribute to The Corithian's theory of grant-grabbing "Gaelgores":

"I think if I’m being honest it had a lot to do with the fact that we could get funding. It would be nice to be able to say we were doing it because we want
to use Irish but it was mainly to do with the funding… "

http://www.udaras.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Utilising-a-Minority-Language-to-Develop-Brand-Identity.pdf

The article also says that the stated government policy is to create a bilingual society by 2026.... (doesn't say what languages though;))

ancapailldorcha

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Still, some of it must have sunk in, given your choice of username!

Some of it sank in.

I've no issue with the language itself. It's the fact that the syllabus is obviously broken. We've had nearly a century now to regain fluency and have failed miserably.

feargale

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

You're making absolutely no sense at all.

I had to learn English as it's the national language and Irish in vain because... well... there really isn't a single good reason.

So you had English shoved down your throat, the same as Gaeltacht kids have Irish shoved down their throat by their Irish-speaking parents.

feargale

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I won't dignify this by asking the questions I am now about to ask...

You will be a great consolation to the short pants brigade.

Dan_Solo

feargale wrote: »

You will be a great consolation to the short pants brigade.

Has this been through Google translate a few times? Is it meant to mean something?

feargale

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Has this been through Google translate a few times? Is it meant to mean something?

Yes. Go figure.

Shep_Dog

Dughorm wrote: »

I've seen this happen actually in a school setting! But are they trying to be inclusive perhaps?

Nonsense. It's an attempt to edit a child's cultural identity and make them ashamed of who they are. A name is one of the most personal posessions one can have. It should not be interfered with. It's interesting though, that the ethnic abusers justify this abuse as being 'inclusion' that's a classic example of a cognitive distortion.

Dughorm wrote: »

This statement is completely ridiculous... are you suggesting this happens today?

There is nothing funny about beating children. This was done in the past, in the name of Irish. Maybe now you can understand why Irish is failing. Hearing Irish just brings back unhappy memories for the majority of the population. That's why most people do not want to listen to it or speak it.

ancapailldorcha

feargale wrote: »

So you had English shoved down your throat, the same as Gaeltacht kids have Irish shoved down their throat by their Irish-speaking parents.

You're, unsurprisingly not comparing like with like. English is one of the most widely spoken languages in the world and is Ireland's national language. Given the fact that almost all of the media in Ireland is through the medium of language and that almost everyone speaks it, I wouldn't say it's being shoved down their throats either. Irish on the other hand is barely spoken in Ireland.

Carlos Orange

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Given the fact that almost all of the media in Ireland is through the medium of language and that almost everyone speaks it, I wouldn't say it's being shoved down their throats either. Irish on the other hand is barely spoken in Ireland.

On a previous thread about why (pretty much) nobody speaks Irish people were blaming teachers and the way it is thought. Nobody would ever blame teachers for somebody born and raised in Ireland not being able to speak English. English teachers aren't order of magnitude better teachers than Irish teachers. They just get to teach something that is a real working language for pretty much everyone they teach.

LordSutch

True or False?

Is it true that all Primary school children in Ireland have their Christian name translated into Irish, to be used in school? Or has that practice ceased in recent years?

It certainly happened in my day, but maybe with today's multicultural population they can't translate non Gaelic/Anglo names into Irish?

Anyone know . . . . .

ancapailldorcha

LordSutch wrote: »

Is it true that all Primary school children in Ireland have their Christian name translated into Irish, to be used in school? Or has that practice ceased in recent years?

It certainly happened in my day, but maybe with today's multicultural population they can't translate non Gaelic/Anglo names into Irish?

Anyone know . . . . .

I've never heard of this at all.

osarusan

LordSutch wrote: »

True or False?

Is it true that all Primary school children in Ireland have their Christian name translated into Irish, to be used in school? Or has that practice ceased in recent years?

It certainly happened in my day, but maybe with today's multicultural population they can't translate non Gaelic/Anglo names into Irish?

Anyone know . . . . .

My Irish teacher used to use the Irish version of my name, but I don't think the practice was any more official/widespread than that.

inocybe

LordSutch wrote: »

True or False?

Is it true that all Primary school children in Ireland have their Christian name translated into Irish, to be used in school? Or has that practice ceased in recent years?

It certainly happened in my day, but maybe with today's multicultural population they can't translate non Gaelic/Anglo names into Irish?

Anyone know . . . . .

It's a while ago, but my foreign surname was changed to the Irish translation of the closest English interpretation.

feargale

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

You're, unsurprisingly not comparing like with like. English is one of the most widely spoken languages in the world and is Ireland's national language. Given the fact that almost all of the media in Ireland is through the medium of language and that almost everyone speaks it, I wouldn't say it's being shoved down their throats either. Irish on the other hand is barely spoken in Ireland.

We could argue till Christmas about what's like what. The kernel of your case appears to be that Irish-speaking parents shouldn't impart Irish to their children, even if they themselves were raised in that language and are more comfortable in it. But why don't you just say that instead of gratuitously insulting those decent people with a mean reference to shoving their own language down their own children's throats?

Iwasfrozen

osarusan wrote: »

My Irish teacher used to use the Irish version of my name, but I don't think the practice was any more official/widespread than that.

My teacher did in primary school and wouldn't stop when I asked her to. Only when I had my parents contact the school did she back off.

Thankfully my voice was a bit more forceful in secondary school when I had to confront the issue again.

ancapailldorcha

feargale wrote: »

We could argue till Christmas about what's like what. The kernel of your case appears to be that Irish-speaking parents shouldn't impart Irish to their children, even if they themselves were raised in that language and are more comfortable in it. But why don't you just say that instead of gratuitously insulting those decent people with a mean reference to shoving their own language down their own children's throats?

As long as they're not frittering away taxpayers' resources they can do whatever they want in their own homes to be honest.

Dan_Solo

I can confirm that Gaelscoils will "translate" any and every name from any part of the globe into Irish, even if it's adding a fada which makes the name sound completely different.

lawlolawl

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I can confirm that Gaelscoils will "translate" any and every name from any part of the globe into Irish, even if it's adding a fada which makes the name sound completely different.

Flailing to to relevant.

Please allow me to translate things to any number of pretend Dungeons & Dragons languages.

Laughable stuff from proponents of a language that is an utter corpse.

Anyone who is pro-Irish language should be embarrassed with themselves for wasting time and resources on dead garbage. The world grew up and you are still clinging to utter nonsense to prove how "Oirish" you are.

Grow up.

ancapailldorcha

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I can confirm that Gaelscoils will "translate" any and every name from any part of the globe into Irish, even if it's adding a fada which makes the name sound completely different.

You forgot about jamming a "h" in after the first letter.