The Irish language is failing.

ancapailldorcha

Dughorm wrote: »

But it is and I've no doubt they're doing their best with the resources they have.

We're going to have to agree to disagree here. Irish state officials aren't famous for being effective, parsimonious individuals.

Dughorm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

We're going to have to agree to disagree here. Irish state officials aren't famous for being effective, parsimonious individuals.

But it's "independent"

According to its website:
TG4, the Irish language television channel is an independent statutory entity (Teilifís na Gaeilge).

Edit: TG4 invests over €20m annually in original Irish programming from the independent production sector in Ireland.
This investment supports 350 posts in small private sector companies throughout the island.

Not bad...

Carlos Orange

Dughorm wrote: »

Edit: TG4 invests over €20m annually in original Irish programming from the independent production sector in Ireland.
This investment supports 350 posts in small private sector companies throughout the island.

Not bad...

€60,000 a job is more like paying for something than supporting it.

Reiver

Shep_Dog wrote: »

I prefer to listen to Irish music and a presenter speaking our melodiuos, witty, native hiberno-English.

Depends on the variety now. I'd probably chuck the radio out the window if the presenter was from the midlands.

Shep_Dog

Dughorm wrote: »

But it's "independent"

According to its website:
TG4, the Irish language television channel is an independent statutory entity (Teilifís na Gaeilge).

Edit: TG4 invests over €20m annually in original Irish programming from the independent production sector in Ireland.
This investment supports 350 posts in small private sector companies throughout the island.

Not bad...

It gets €32m from the government.

An Ciarraioch

Shep_Dog wrote: »

It gets €32m from the government.

RTE Two gets €92m, but considering TG4 has won the rights to the Pro12, Tour de France and the National Leagues, supports home-grown documentaries and various musical series, it's arguable that it spends the budget it does receive more effectively. On the use of English programming, it's not ideal, but S4C, BBC Alba and indeed Basque TV channels follow the same model.

Shep_Dog

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

RTE Two gets €92m, but considering TG4 has won the rights to the Pro12, Tour de France and the National Leagues, supports home-grown documentaries and various musical series, it's arguable that it spends the budget it does receive more effectively.

I'd doubt if the bidding for Irish-language broadcast rights for the Tour de France was particularly intense. And I'm sure it gets those Irish cultural gems 'Bonanza' and 'RawHide' quite cheaply.

It is, admittedly an effective way of channeling public money to the Irish-language industry.

A true measure of the vitality of Irish would be if the Irish-language community could pay for its own media. Instead it has become dependent on the charity of English-speakers.

An Ciarraioch

Shep_Dog wrote: »

I'd doubt if the bidding for Irish-language broadcast rights for the Tour de France was particularly intense. And I'm sure it gets those Irish cultural gems 'Bonanza' and 'RawHide' quite cheaply.

It is, admittedly an effective way of channeling public money to the Irish-language industry.

A true measure of the vitality of Irish would be if the Irish-language community could pay for its own media. Instead it has become dependent on the charity of English-speakers.

If the licence fee is to be rejected for a PSB, how do you propose it would be paid for? Presumably, the Irish-language community doesn't differ from the general community in percentages subscribing to packages, so that option is out, too!

Dan_Solo

Gael Mire wrote: »

Like the constant parroting about how Irish is a dead language and its (handful of) speakers are all backward Conamara sheep farmers that Gaelophobes delight in engaging in?

The first bit is true. The rest has been said by about the same percentage of posters here as there are regular Irish speakers in Ireland.

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

Apathy?
Poor teaching?
Lack of confidence?
Emotional hostility?

Any others that haven't been covered?

How about "everybody speaks English already so couldn't be bothered"? You seem to insist on missing that one for some reason.

Dughorm wrote: »

And Irish hasn't failed, sure as Dan_Solo said, Irish only died recently, plenty of time to turn things around.

And like I said, ask a doctor what they can do with a patient who "died recently". Dead is dead.

Dan_Solo

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

If the licence fee is to be rejected for a PSB, how do you propose it would be paid for

Imagine how long Irish media would last if there was no government handouts... a week, tops?

Dughorm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

How about "everybody speaks English already so couldn't be bothered"? You seem to insist on missing that one for some reason.

Like I said... apathy.

Dan_Solo wrote: »

And like I said, ask a doctor what they can do with a patient who "died recently". Dead is dead.

People may die, languages, memories and ideas go on!

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

Like I said... apathy.

You could call anything that pretty much nobody wants to do "apathy" I guess. There's a somewhat implied sense from that word that there's something actually wrong with ignoring it though. "Irrelevance" would be closer to the mark.

Dughorm wrote: »

People may die, languages, memories and ideas go on!

But languages don't if nobody speaks them. That's a fact.

Dughorm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

You could call anything that pretty much nobody wants to do "apathy" I guess. There's a somewhat implied sense from that word that there's something actually wrong with ignoring it though. "Irrelevance" would be closer to the mark.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/apathy

I only go on the normal definition of the word apathy not "somewhat implied senses" that you're reading into the word.

Dan_Solo wrote: »

But languages don't if nobody speaks them. That's a fact.

And yet people do speak it and another cohort have the ability to do so if they so choose...

jigglypuffstuff

Do people still care about this old useless language??

Dughorm

pone2012 wrote: »

Do people still care about this old useless language??

Yes.

pone2012

pone2012 wrote: »

Do people still care about this old useless language??

Well after 2000+ posts in this thread alone and shedloads in other threads, i think the answer is....


YES!

With a passion, quite a few desperately trying to bury it and nearly as many defending it!

jigglypuffstuff

Dughorm wrote: »

Yes.

Then they should probably stop..it serves little purpose besides p*ssing off a bunch of children and teenagers who have to study a language that literally has no practical use whatsoever

waste of time, energy, money and effort imo

The Randy Riverbeast

LordSutch wrote: »

True or False?

Is it true that all Primary school children in Ireland have their Christian name translated into Irish, to be used in school? Or has that practice ceased in recent years?

It certainly happened in my day, but maybe with today's multicultural population they can't translate non Gaelic/Anglo names into Irish?

Anyone know . . . . .

I had fun with this in school about 13 years ago. I'm the only one of 2 people in the country that I know of with my surname (including my father) as its foreign and rare enough in that country. Each year the teacher would try to get my name in Irish and fail.

Dughorm

pone2012 wrote: »

Then they should probably stop..it serves little purpose besides p*ssing off a bunch of children and teenagers who have to study a language that literally has no practical use whatsoever

waste of time, energy, money and effort imo

How passive! Make something of it or use your ingenuity to get yourself an exemption if it annoys you so much!

jigglypuffstuff

Dughorm wrote: »

How passive! Make something of it or use your ingenuity to get yourself an exemption if it annoys you so much!

I did quite well in irish in 2010 LC in fact, A B3 actually....that doesnt change the fact that I put forward...It serves no purpose and is pretty much insignificant and useless as far as skills are concerned

Sorry if you dont like it, you're more than welcome to argue this point with me

Gael Mire

psinno wrote: »

Given that Raidio na Gaeltachta don't even have enough audience to show up in radio audience figures I don't think there is much of an argument for creating another radio station to cater for a subsection of their audience. You could of course but then you could create a radio station for Irish speaking toddlers too.

Not true, its not that they don't have enough listeners to show up, they just don't participate with that service.

Gael Mire

Shep_Dog wrote: »

What language would the songs be in?

English, Irish and probably some other European languages, most Irish language media tend to make an effort to go beyond the anglosphere when they choose to bring in outside materials.

Gael Mire

pone2012 wrote: »

Sorry if you dont like it, you're more than welcome to argue this point with me

Well, if you take the critics argument at face value, Irish is a veritable goldmine for its speakers, there's a gravy train out there if you just know your cúpla focal, don't you know.

Shep_Dog

Gael Mire wrote: »

English, Irish and probably some other European languages, most Irish language media tend to make an effort to go beyond the anglosphere when they choose to bring in outside materials.

What percentage of the music would be in the Irish language?

Gael Mire

Shep_Dog wrote: »

What percentage of the music would be in the Irish language?

I haven't the foggiest idea.

Shep_Dog

Gael Mire wrote: »

I haven't the foggiest idea.

You want an Irish language 2fm, why not an Irish language 98fM or FM104?

Wouldn't it be a great demonstration of vitality of the Irish language if the proposed station was not dependent on state charity?

Dan_Solo

Gael Mire wrote: »

Well, if you take the critics argument at face value, Irish is a veritable goldmine for its speakers, there's a gravy train out there if you just know your cúpla focal, don't you know.

Why do you bother repeating this unless you actually believe it's true?

An Ciarraioch

Shep_Dog wrote: »

You want an Irish language 2fm, why not an Irish language 98fM or FM104?

Wouldn't it be a great demonstration of vitality of the Irish language if the proposed station was not dependent on state charity?

http://www.rrr.ie/

Couldn't attract a lower FM audience than RnaG does currently, at any rate!

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

How passive! Make something of it or use your ingenuity to get yourself an exemption if it annoys you so much!

So if we take flintknapping again, if everybody was forced to learn this skill for pretty much no reason whatsoever, your attitude would be that we should all practise this skill every day instead of just canning it at school?

Gael Mire

Shep_Dog wrote: »

You want an Irish language 2fm, why not an Irish language 98fM or FM104?

Wouldn't it be a great demonstration of vitality of the Irish language if the proposed station was not dependent on state charity?

There are two radio services that cater to a younger Irish speaking audience, Raidió Rí-Rá, which is an online station, and Raidió na Life which is Dublin Based. The reality is that the Irish speaking community is significantly smaller than the English Speaking community which has a knock on impact on the commercial viability of a proposed Irish language station. The start up costs of establishing a nationwide station is quite prohibitive and as such a fully private station is not a very realistic prospect at the moment. Its not that there is no interest, there is, but there is a difference between interest, and enough interest to establish and maintain an independent commercial station.

Now, you may believe that unless something has enough people interested in it to set up a a fully independent commercial service, then it should not exist. I don't, and clearly the majority of society agrees with me on that because like it or not, we have publicly funded broadcasting in this country. If we as a society take the decision that there should be no public funded media, then that's fine, until that happens, there will be an obligation to provide public funding to Irish language media as well as English language media.


PS: Almost all media is dependent on 'state charity' to some extent. Be it in the form of direct subvention in RTÉ, the state commissioning various projects undertaken by private enterprise, the state advertising various things on private media, and other benefits in kind like PR departments that provide material to media, reducing their workload and costs, providing authoritative sources etc. (I dipped my toe into media studies once upon a time. The ownership and funding of media is a bit of a can of worms.)

Gael Mire

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Why do you bother repeating this unless you actually believe it's true?

I'm pointing out an inconsistency in the critics argument, either the language is useless to its speakers or its a fantastic source of income for them, it can't really be both.

Dan_Solo

Gael Mire wrote: »

and clearly the majority of society agrees with me on that because like it or not, we have publicly funded broadcasting in this country.

That's like saying the majority of Irish society were against gay marriage until a few months ago. It's a crap argument.
When have we been asked?

Gael Mire

Dan_Solo wrote: »

So if we take flintknapping again, if everybody was forced to learn this skill for pretty much no reason whatsoever, your attitude would be that we should all practise this skill every day instead of just canning it at school?

The point is that your not comparing like with like. You might consider both to be equally useless, but obviously that is a minority view as Irish is something that tens of thousands of people speak every day and is the subject of not insignificant state support, but flintknapping is not.

Gael Mire

Dan_Solo wrote: »

That's like saying the majority of Irish society were against gay marriage until a few months ago. It's a crap argument.
When have we been asked?

Where is the demand for change? Its clearly not a significant political issue.

Dan_Solo

Gael Mire wrote: »

I'm pointing out an inconsistency in the critics argument, either the language is useless to its speakers or its a fantastic source of income for them, it can't really be both.

Oh, it's fantastic for professional spongers, I'll give you that. It's useless for most people though who weren't born to it and never want to use it.
I'm not sure why this is a good reason to support the Irish language at any state level mind.

Dan_Solo

Gael Mire wrote: »

Where is the demand for change? Its clearly not a significant political issue.

Ah, so it's right to keep things as they are because of the fact they haven't been changed and no other reason.
Still not buying that TBH.

Carlos Orange

Gael Mire wrote: »

The point is that your not comparing like with like. You might consider both to be equally useless, but obviously that is a minority view as Irish is something that tens of thousands of people speak every day and is the subject of not insignificant state support, but flintknapping is not.

Does the usefulness of the Irish language hinge on the amount of subsidy it receives from the state?

Gael Mire

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Ah, so it's right to keep things as they are because of the fact they haven't been changed and no other reason.
Still not buying that TBH.

No, not because they have not been changed, but because there is no demand for change. You may feel the need for change, but the opinion of one or a small group of people is not a good enough reason for change.
If and when enough people agree with you to make it a political issue, then there is an argument for change, until then, sorry, but just because you think that way does not mean that society agrees with you.

Gael Mire

psinno wrote: »

Does the usefulness of the Irish language hinge on the amount of subsidy it receives from the state?

No, ultimately it hinges on the number of people who speak it and/or support its continued use as part of our society. This manifests itself in individuals and communities speaking it, community groups and private businesses operating through Irish. Relationships and friendships being formed through the language. Children being raised through Irish and so on.
It also impacts public support for official status and the language rights of Irish citizens and state services that go along with that. All of this can then generate employment and economic opportunities for its speakers and in the communities where it is spoken.

State services, the education system etc are important aspects of this, much like they are in the economic life of the English speaking part of the country.

osarusan

Gael Mire wrote: »

No, ultimately it hinges on the number of people who speak it and/or support its continued use as part of our society. This manifests itself in individuals and communities speaking it, community groups and private businesses operating through Irish. Relationships and friendships being formed through the language. Children being raised through Irish and so on.
It also impacts public support for official status and the language rights of Irish citizens and state services that go along with that. All of this can then generate employment and economic opportunities for its speakers and in the communities where it is spoken.

State services, the education system etc are important aspects of this, much like they are in the economic life of the English speaking part of the country.

That's completely circular.

Pay loads of money to keep people speaking it - as a result of paying this money, there are plenty of people speaking it - because there are plenty of people speaking it, it is important to keep paying the money.

Gael Mire

osarusan wrote: »

That's completely circular.

Pay loads of money to keep people speaking it - as a result of paying this money, there are plenty of people speaking it - because there are plenty of people speaking it, it is important to keep paying the money.

Of course there is a circular element to it, much of society works that way.

The same is true of English speaking Ireland, but on a larger scale. The majority of society is English speaking, therefore the vast majority of government expenditure goes on business conducted through English and in supporting English language institutions, Education, Media etc. This reinforces the status and use of English in society which in turn reinforces the use of English in government and the language in which the institutions of the state operate.

Its a simplification, but you can see the connection between the use of language in society and in Government as a kind of feedback loop. In many countries where there is only one language, like Germany for example, its a simple matter, both state and people operate in one language, simple as.
In countries where two or more languages exist it is more complicated and the state will have a linguistic policy which can range from official bilingualism/multilingualism to one of suppression and assimilation of one language group by the other.
In these situations, the linguistic policy of the state can be quite contentious. The state can influence the language used in society by choosing to increase or decrease the status and use of those languages by the state.

In Ireland, the language shift from English to Irish was largely driven by a very clear language policy by the British state to increase the status and usage of English and suppress the status and usage of Irish. This had both a linguistic and economic impact on the speakers of Irish. The administration became English speaking, the professions became English speaking, the institutions of education operated through English. English gained a higher status and became a more economically useful language as a result of this state policy and over time, many parts of society became English speaking as a result.

Irish speakers from the start of the revival movement back when the British state was still in power over the whole Island sought to overturn this linguistic policy. And when the Irish state was set up, aimed to put it into reverse. They failed, and in the 60's the state revised its language policy to one of official bilingualism (ie not aiming to have one language group assimilate the other) but while the symbolism was one of maintaining the status of Irish, under the surface there was much continuation from the old British policy of English assimilating Irish. And there are still remenants of this policy today. Irish speakers are still trying to overturn some aspects of the assimilation policy that never really changed since the British were in power.

In the North, some of the penal laws restricting the use of Irish are still in effect even.

Carlos Orange

Gael Mire wrote: »

In many countries where there is only one language, like Germany for example, its a simple matter, both state and people operate in one language, simple as.

Germany has officially recognised minority languages but I gather not a lot of Sorbs speak Sorbian any more.

Gael Mire

psinno wrote: »

Germany has officially recognised minority languages but I gather not a lot of Sorbs speak Sorbian any more.

Yeah, I know, I was simplifying because its a country that does not have a bilingual policy at a national level or any language group that could be seen as a second language at a national level. In reality almost any country you care to mention will have some indigenous minority language group.

Dan_Solo

psinno wrote: »

Germany has officially recognised minority languages but I gather not a lot of Sorbs speak Sorbian any more.

I also doubt they have compulsory national teaching of any of their minority languages or billions worth of freebies for those who happen to speak them.

Gael Mire

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I also doubt they have compulsory national teaching of any of their minority languages or billions worth of freebies for those who happen to speak them.

Freebies? Where?

Dan_Solo

Gael Mire wrote: »

Freebies? Where?

Oh, apologies, this must be news to you: http://www.ahg.gov.ie/

Gael Mire

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Oh, apologies, this must be news to you

I see a website, where are the freebies? You promised freebies!!

Also the department of Arts, Herritage and the Gaeltacht does not have billions of euros to spend on anything, and of the money that it has, only a minority goes on Irish, it spends most of its money on the first two parts of its name.)

Dan_Solo

Gael Mire wrote: »

I see a website, where are the freebies? You promised freebies!!

Also the department of Arts, Herritage and the Gaeltacht does not have billions of euros to spend on anything, and of the money that it has, only a minority goes on Irish, it spends most of its money on the first two parts of its name.)

I see you're backtracking nicely on the existence of freebies and gone to haggle over how big they are. Predictable I guess.
Between the Gaeltacht and Irish teacher spending there's millions per year. Billions definitely over time, if not per year.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/ourview/the-irish-language--throwing-good-money-after-bad-225250.html

It is estimated that we spend something around €1bn a year just teaching Irish. Other programmes add to that cost. Foras na Gaeilge supports 19 Irish promotion organisations with state funding. Television service TG4 got €32.75m in current funding from Government last year. Its audience stands at something around 2% of the population. Raidió na Gaeltachta has, it is believed, an even smaller audience though official figures are not available. It may be assumed that funding for RnaG pushes the bill for Irish language broadcasting towards the €50m mark for just these two outlets.

Gael Mire

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I see you're backtracking nicely on the existence of freebies and gone to haggle over how big they are. Predictable I guess.
Between the Gaeltacht and Irish teacher spending there's millions per year. Billions definitely over time, if not per year.

No i'm not, where are they, so far you have shown me the website of a government department, where are the 'freebies'? Since when is a teacher a 'freebie'? As for the Gaeltacht, again where are the freebies? Show me billions of euros worth of freebies that the Gaeltacht gets that the rest of the country does not have access to. Of course there are no billions in reality, these are just lies that people like you tell.