The Irish language is failing.

Dan_Solo · 03-09-2015 2:54pm

Gael Mire wrote: »

No i'm not, where are they, so far you have shown me the website of a government department, where are the 'freebies'? Since when is a teacher a 'freebie'? As for the Gaeltacht, again where are the freebies? Show me billions of euros worth of freebies that the Gaeltacht gets that the rest of the country does not have access to. Of course there are no billions in reality, these are just lies that people like you tell.

Yes, they are freebies to support the Irish language. €1,000,000,000 per annum at least.
You need more education on what the Udaras does then? You seem to know absolutely nothing about these policies you very clearly support.
http://www.udaras.ie/en/forbairt-fiontraiochta/foirmeacha-iarratais/
Go on, make me laugh and tell me these are available to everybody again.

Dughorm · 03-09-2015 4:52pm

pone2012 wrote: »

I did quite well in irish in 2010 LC in fact, A B3 actually....that doesnt change the fact that I put forward...It serves no purpose and is pretty much insignificant and useless as far as skills are concerned

Sorry if you dont like it, you're more than welcome to argue this point with me

It's a faculty you have learned to quite a high standard as evidenced by your results. If it doesn't serve you a purpose and is insignificant and useless as far as your skills are concerned then that's your choice. It's presumptuous of you to say it serves no purpose - how do you know?

Dughorm · 03-09-2015 4:54pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

So if we take flintknapping again, if everybody was forced to learn this skill for pretty much no reason whatsoever, your attitude would be that we should all practise this skill every day instead of just canning it at school?

I don't accept your premise so your conclusion doesn't resonate with me.

Dan_Solo · 03-09-2015 5:04pm

Dughorm wrote: »

It's a faculty you have learned to quite a high standard as evidenced by your results. If it doesn't serve you a purpose and is insignificant and useless as far as your skills are concerned then that's your choice. It's presumptuous of you to say it serves no purpose - how do you know?

Because we already have a far superior option that serves the country fantastically well: knives bought in the shop.
The language equivalent in this discussion is "English", in case you didn't get that.

Dan_Solo · 03-09-2015 5:06pm

Dughorm wrote: »

I don't accept your premise so your conclusion doesn't resonate with me.

You don't accept the premise that everybody in Ireland is forced to learn something they will have no use for in future? Really?
Will I remind you how many people speak Irish with any sort of regularity then, or did you forget?

Reiver · 03-09-2015 5:07pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

You don't accept the premise that everybody in Ireland is forced to learn something they will have no use for in future?
Will I remind you how many people speak Irish with any sort of regularity then, or did you forget?

Not everybody is forced to learn.

Dan_Solo · 03-09-2015 5:09pm

Reiver wrote: »

Not everybody is forced to learn.

If they are Irish born they are forced to learn. This is a simple fact.

Reiver · 03-09-2015 5:16pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

If they are Irish born they are forced to learn. This is a simple fact.

My brother is Irish born and didn't have to.

Dan_Solo · 03-09-2015 5:18pm

Reiver wrote: »

My brother is Irish born and didn't have to.

Oh go on then, tell us all about this vanishingly miniscule segment of Irish schoolgoers who don't have to do Irish. I'll pretend it was important to the debate, honest*.

* I won't.

Reiver · 03-09-2015 5:20pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Oh go on then, tell us all about this vanishingly miniscule segment of Irish schoolgoers who don't have to do Irish. I'll pretend it was important to the debate, honest*.

* I won't.

He's dyslexic. A friend as well lived abroad for a few years and he didn't have to learn either when he got back.

So no...everybody isn't forced to learn.

Dughorm · 03-09-2015 5:25pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Because we already have a far superior option that serves the country fantastically well: knives bought in the shop.
The language equivalent in this discussion is "English", in case you didn't get that.

Who's the "we" and how do you know what they think? Is that not arrogant?

Dan_Solo · 03-09-2015 5:26pm

Reiver wrote: »

He's dyslexic. A friend as well lived abroad for a few years and he didn't have to learn either when he got back.

So no...everybody isn't forced to learn.

Thanks for that worthless contribution that adds pretty much zero to the discussion on whether Irish should be compulsory or not and how that helps the language.
No, really. Hats off.

Dan_Solo · 03-09-2015 5:27pm

Dughorm wrote: »

Who's the "we" and how do you know what they think? Is that not arrogant?

"We" is the 99% of the population who refuse to speak Irish.
A bit arrogant of you to think you know better than they do, surely?

Dughorm · 03-09-2015 5:28pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

"We" is the 99% of the population who refuse to speak Irish.
A bit arrogant of you to think you know better than they do, surely?

I didn't claim to know better than anyone. It is you who claim to know what "We" think? What scientific evidence do you have to back up your claim?

Dan_Solo · 03-09-2015 5:30pm

Dughorm wrote: »

I didn't claim to know better than anyone. It is you who claim to know what "We" think? What scientific evidence do you have to back up your claim?

We know how many people speak Irish with any regularity: about 1%.
Do you have any evidence that more people want to speak Irish but for some reason are incapable of exercising their 13 years of education in the language?

Reiver · 03-09-2015 5:31pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Thanks for that worthless contribution that adds pretty much zero to the discussion on whether Irish should be compulsory or not and how that helps the language.
No, really. Hats off.

You're just cross because you were proven wrong. :rolleyes:

Dan_Solo · 03-09-2015 5:31pm

Reiver wrote: »

You're just cross because you were proven wrong. :rolleyes:

You're just embarrassed because your point wasn't one.

Hey, if you get eaten by a crocodile on the way to your Irish exam, you don't have to pass the exam! True! So important we factor everything in to this argument isn't it!

Reiver · 03-09-2015 5:33pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

You're just embarrassed because your point wasn't one.

You said it as a fact that everybody was forced to learn. Not everybody is. :pac: We can't have hyperbole dominating here.

Dughorm · 03-09-2015 5:38pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

We know how many people speak Irish with any regularity: about 1%.
Do you have any evidence that more people want to speak Irish but for some reason are incapable of exercising their 13 years of education in the language?

I don't... but then I didn't claim to represent the views of this "We" and what they think. So I'll ask again do you have a shred of scientific evidence to back up your claim?

Dan_Solo · 03-09-2015 5:44pm

Dughorm wrote: »

I don't... but then I didn't claim to represent the views of this "We" and what they think. So I'll ask again do you have a shred of scientific evidence to back up your claim?

I don't need to know their opinion. They spent 13 years learning Irish but less than 1% want to use it afterwards.
Why do you refuse to accept this cast iron fact?

Dughorm · 03-09-2015 5:49pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I don't need to know their opinion. They spent 13 years learning Irish but less than 1% want to use it afterwards.
Why do you refuse to accept this cast iron fact?

Are you backtracking from your claim to speak for this "we"? Or can you speak for them without knowing their opinion?

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but you need at least a robust survey to make any credible wider assertions.

Shep_Dog · 03-09-2015 7:10pm

Gael Mire wrote: »

but the opinion of one or a small group of people is not a good enough reason for change.

Unless they're Irish-language enthusiasts looking for the government to provide them with another radio station.

Gael Mire · 03-09-2015 7:15pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Yes, they are freebies to support the Irish language. €1,000,000,000 per annum at least.
You need more education on what the Udaras does then? You seem to know absolutely nothing about these policies you very clearly support.
Go on, make me laugh and tell me these are available to everybody again.

The €1,000,000,000 figure is laughable. When the article mentions 'it is estimated' it fails to mention that the 'estimation' was done by a Dublin based Neo-Unionist group that want to see the dismantling of the Irish language at a national level. Hardily the most credible source.

I know all about Údarás na Gaeltachta. They take the place of Enterprise Ireland in the Gaeltacht. So while the rest of the country do not have access to funding from ÚnaG, they do have access for the same thing from a much better resourced state agency.

Gael Mire · 03-09-2015 7:23pm

Shep_Dog wrote: »

Unless they're Irish-language enthusiasts looking for the government to provide them with another radio station.

That's exactly the point, for change to happen, there has to be sufficient political support, both among the political class, and in wider society. For ending publicly funded broadcasting in this country, clearly it's not there. For Irish it is.

Gael Mire · 03-09-2015 7:25pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I don't need to know their opinion. They spent 13 years learning Irish but less than 1% want to use it afterwards.
Why do you refuse to accept this cast iron fact?

From where, bedsides up your own hole, are you pulling these figures from?

Go on, if its a 'cast iron fact', back it up.

Carlos Orange · 03-09-2015 7:30pm

Gael Mire wrote: »

I know all about Údarás na Gaeltachta. They take the place of Enterprise Ireland in the Gaeltacht. So while the rest of the country do not have access to funding from ÚnaG, they do have access for the same thing from a much better resourced state agency.

Does Enterprise Ireland help setup preschools?

Gael Mire · 03-09-2015 7:42pm

psinno wrote: »

Does Enterprise Ireland help setup preschools?

Probably, they are small businesses at the end of the day.
You will be hard pressed to find funding from ÚnaG that is not available from another state agency outside the Gaeltacht, be it Enterprise Ireland or something else.

ÚnaG has a very small budget, the reality is, they don't have enough money to fund much. If anything, they are significantly underfunded for the responsibilities they have.

Shep_Dog · 03-09-2015 8:00pm

Gael Mire wrote: »

That's exactly the point, for change to happen, there has to be sufficient political support, both among the political class, and in wider society. For ending publicly funded broadcasting in this country, clearly it's not there. For Irish it is.

Ending funding would be extreme. It would be more reasonable to make the subvention proportionate to the listenership. This would reward progress in growing the listernership. There has to be a limit on how much money is given to Irish language enthusiasts.

More to the point, we are discussing the failure of Irish. If, unlike their more successful English-speaking compatriots, Irish-speakers cannot provide their own media without recourse to state charity, this really proves that Irish has failed. Maybe it's time for Irish speakers to throw down the crutch of state support and show that they are a viable cultural group? They really only have themselves to blame for the present situation, having already squandered decades of state support and alienated the majority of the population.

Dughorm · 03-09-2015 8:04pm

Shep_Dog wrote: »

If, unlike their more successful English-speaking compatriots, Irish-speakers cannot provide their own media without recourse to state charity, this really proves that Irish has failed. Maybe it's time for Irish speakers to throw down the crutch of state support and show that they are a viable cultural group?

RTE requires "state charity" in the form of a hefty licence fee. Commercial TV in Ireland along the likes of Tv3 is what you want is it?

Shep_Dog wrote: »

They really only have themselves to blame for the present situation, having already squandered decades of state support and alienated the majority of the population.

Any evidence for this wild allegation?

Gael Mire · 03-09-2015 8:20pm

Shep_Dog wrote: »

Maybe it's time for Irish speakers to throw down the crutch of state support and show that they are a viable cultural group? They really only have themselves to blame for the present situation, having already squandered decades of state support and alienated the majority of the population.

The crutch of state support? Perhaps the English speaking community in this country should try it first. I mean they speak one of the top five most spoken languages in the world, if Irish speakers are to be expected to prove they are a 'viable' cultural group by being cut off from the benefit of their taxes, then surely the English speakers, the majority language community should be doing it already. No more schools/media/hospitals etc dependent to the crutch of state funding for them.

Dan_Solo · 03-09-2015 8:23pm

Gael Mire wrote: »

I know all about Údarás na Gaeltachta. They take the place of Enterprise Ireland in the Gaeltacht. So while the rest of the country do not have access to funding from ÚnaG, they do have access for the same thing from a much better resourced state agency.

Oh dear.
So in that case you'll be calling on the Gaeltachts to be scrapped so the people there can enjoy the "better resourced" other state funding instead?
My eye you will.

Dan_Solo · 03-09-2015 8:25pm

Dughorm wrote: »

RTE requires "state charity" in the form of a hefty licence fee.

But RTE's mission statement isn't solely to promote a comatose language that nobody appears to want anything to do with.

Dan_Solo · 03-09-2015 8:28pm

Gael Mire wrote: »

No more schools/media/hospitals etc dependent to the crutch of state funding for them.

You think the only reason we have hospitals in Ireland is to force English on those poor people who are otherwise speaking Irish all the time?
Paranoid much?

Gael Mire · 03-09-2015 8:35pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Oh dear.
So in that case you'll be calling on the Gaeltachts to be scrapped so the people there can enjoy the "better resourced" other state funding instead?
My eye you will.

Of course not, Enterprise Ireland has a much bigger population to cover. Of course they are better resourced. Údarás also has the virtue of being able to provide its services in Irish.
No, I won't be calling on the Gaeltachts to be scrapped, I will be calling for the cuts to Údarás na Gaeltachtas budget to be reversed in the budget so they can effectively fulfill their role in supporting the continued existence of our Gaeltacht communities.

Gael Mire · 03-09-2015 8:37pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

You think the only reason we have hospitals in Ireland is to force English on those poor people who are otherwise speaking Irish all the time?
Paranoid much?

Do you think the only reason we have schools in the Gaeltacht is to force Irish on poor people who are otherwise speaking English all the time? Ignorant much?

Dan_Solo · 03-09-2015 8:50pm

Gael Mire wrote: »

Do you think the only reason we have schools in the Gaeltacht is to force Irish on poor people who are otherwise speaking English all the time? Ignorant much?

You mean that 1% of Irish people who speak Irish, now the third and soon the fourth most popular language in Ireland? It was you that brought up the hospitals using English thing, if you're now calling that "ignorant" at least you've one shred of honesty, even if you're unloading both barrels into your own foot.
http://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2015/0529/704583-irish-in-decline-in-gaeltacht-areas-report/
Irish won't even be the common tongue in the Gaeltacht in 10 years. An utter failure. Get used to it.
Did you know any of this? Or just not care as long as the gravy train keeps on rolling?

Mr_Muffin · 03-09-2015 9:00pm

I didn't do Irish in school as i spent some time abroad being educated.

Seeming as children are taught Irish for quite a few years i was under the impression that practically every Irish person would of been able to speak fluent Irish but it seems this is not the case - actually i don't now anyone who can speak it at all.

Why is this? Surely after years and years of learning at a young age they would pick it up or am i wrong?

Shep_Dog · 03-09-2015 9:09pm

Dughorm wrote: »

RTE requires "state charity" in the form of a hefty licence fee. Commercial TV in Ireland along the likes of Tv3 is what you want is it?

It would say a lot about the vitality of Irish if it attracted sufficient audiences to bring in advertisers to fund Irish language media. TV3 simply reflects the demand of its viewers. No doubt, a successful Irish language broadcaster would appeal to the tastes of Irish speakers.

Dughorm wrote: »

Any evidence for this wild allegation?

Irish is failing in the Gaeltacht? We all prefer to speak English? The Main Aim of Conradh has not been achieved? Douglas Hyde is spinning in his grave?

Gael Mire · 03-09-2015 9:19pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

You mean that 1% of Irish people who speak Irish, now the third and soon the fourth most popular language in Ireland? It was you that brought up the hospitals using English thing, if you're now calling that "ignorant" at least you've one shred of honesty, even if you're unloading both barrels into your own foot.

Irish won't even be the common tongue in the Gaeltacht in 10 years. An utter failure. Get used to it.
Did you know any of this? Or just not care as long as the gravy train keeps on rolling?

Sorry, I don't base my discussions on made up statistics.
As for the future of the Irish language as the majority language in the Gaeltacht, I am well aware of the issues. I am also aware of the causes and how they can be solved. They are being solved in the Gaeltacht I work in.

Shep_Dog · 03-09-2015 9:20pm

Gael Mire wrote: »

if Irish speakers are to be expected to prove they are a 'viable' cultural group by being cut off from the benefit of their taxes

So, the subsidies given to Irish speaking only derive from the taxes of Irish speakers?

More to the point, we provide hospital care to those in need. Speaking Irish is not a malady.

Why are you afraid of the idea of Irish speakers demonstrating they are a viable, cultural group? Perhaps the fact that they are not, lies at the root of the demise of their language and you find it more comfortable to ignore this?

Irish speakers have the same lifestyle and culural tastes as the rest of us. The only difference is that they enjoy speaking Irish. This does not make them a distinct or separate cultural group.

Gael Mire · 03-09-2015 9:29pm

Shep_Dog wrote: »

So, the subsidies given to Irish speaking only derive from the taxes of Irish speakers?

They derive from the state to which they pay their taxes, as to the breakdown, i'm not sure,

More to the point, we provide hospital care to those in need. Speaking Irish is not a malady.

But surely if English speaking Ireland were a viable cultural group, they would be able to support these services without the 'crutch of state support'?

Why are you afraid of the idea of Irish speakers demonstrating they are a viable, cultural group?

If and when the English speakers completely cut themselves off from the all state funded supports and services provided through English, then it is fair to expect Irish speakers to do the same.

AnLonDubh · 03-09-2015 9:30pm

Shep_Dog wrote: »

Irish is failing in the Gaeltacht? We all prefer to speak English? The Main Aim of Conradh has not been achieved? Douglas Hyde is spinning in his grave?

I see this again and again on boards, why would Douglas Hyde be spinning in his grave?

Gael Mire · 03-09-2015 9:33pm

AnLonDubh wrote: »

I see this again and again on boards, why would Douglas Hyde be spinning in his grave?

Well, he doesn't have much better to be doing these days really, if you choice is between spinning and not spinning, may as well spin.

Dan_Solo · 03-09-2015 9:46pm

Gael Mire wrote: »

Sorry, I don't base my discussions on made up statistics.
As for the future of the Irish language as the majority language in the Gaeltacht, I am well aware of the issues. I am also aware of the causes and how they can be solved. They are being solved in the Gaeltacht I work in.

Ah, you don't even provide statistics. You just say everything is grand, we'll all be speaking Irish any day now with zero evidence.
Let me guess "I'm an Irish speaker and I said so"? That negates the surveys showing Irish is collapsing miserably in the Gaeltacht that I linked to I suppose?

Gael Mire · 03-09-2015 10:16pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Ah, you don't even provide statistics. You just say everything is grand, we'll all be speaking Irish any day now with zero evidence.
Let me guess "I'm an Irish speaker and I said so"? That negates the surveys showing Irish is collapsing miserably in the Gaeltacht that I linked to I suppose?

I could make shít up too, I just choose not to. I don't find it helps these discussions very much.

No, everything is not grand, there are still gobshítes like you hanging around with an attitude to the language that Queen Victoria would be proud of.

Irish is not collapsing in the Gaeltacht. In fact the number of Irish speakers has been increasing in the Gaeltacht over the last decade. (I can give you the figures for that if you like). The problem largely has been the influx of non-Irish speakers to the Gaeltacht during the celtic tiger. Areas such as Bearna in Galway have more Irish speakers than ever, but have seen an even greater increase in the number of English speakers, swamping the Irish speaking community in that area.

Thankfuly that influx is stopped now and those communities can begin to heal. There is a question if they will be able to assimilate these new commers, some probably wont. Bearna may well fall into that category.

KERSPLAT! · 03-09-2015 10:23pm

Gael Mire wrote: »

I could make shít up too, I just choose not to. I don't find it helps these discussions very much.

No, everything is not grand, there are still gobshítes like you hanging around with an attitude to the language that Queen Victoria would be proud of.

Irish is not collapsing in the Gaeltacht. In fact the number of Irish speakers has been increasing in the Gaeltacht over the last decade. (I can give you the figures for that if you like). The problem largely has been the influx of non-Irish speakers to the Gaeltacht during the celtic tiger. Areas such as Bearna in Galway have more Irish speakers than ever, but have seen an even greater increase in the number of English speakers, swamping the Irish speaking community in that area.

Thankfuly that influx is stopped now and those communities can begin to heal. There is a question if they will be able to assimilate these new commers, some probably wont. Bearna may well fall into that category.

MOD

Keep it civil or don't post.

Shep_Dog · 04-09-2015 6:13am

AnLonDubh wrote: »

I see this again and again on boards, why would Douglas Hyde be spinning in his grave?

Hyde wrote strongly about the need to de-Anglisize Ireland and poured scorn on Irish people's appetite for English 'penny dreadfuls'.

Shep_Dog · 04-09-2015 6:51am

Gael Mire wrote: »

If and when the English speakers completely cut themselves off from the all state funded supports and services provided through English, then it is fair to expect Irish speakers to do the same.

The amount of money expended on providing TV and radio entertainment to Irish speakers is grossly disproportionate to their numbers. That is not fair. More to the point is that Irish-language media has become completely dependent on state-funding, this is not healthy and signals that, as a cultural entity, Irish does not have an independent, dignified existence. While it is true that English-speakers can enjoy state-funded media, they also have independent newspapers, radio and TV stations. This is the difference in vigour between the failing Irish language community and the thriving English language one.

Gael Mire wrote: »

The problem largely has been the influx of non-Irish speakers to the Gaeltacht during the celtic tiger. Areas such as Bearna in Galway have more Irish speakers than ever, but have seen an even greater increase in the number of English speakers, swamping the Irish speaking community in that area.

I read that the problem was that younger Irish-speakers were switching to English, so that they could communicate with their English-speaking friends. How will you prevent this?

Dan_Solo · 04-09-2015 9:15am

Gael Mire wrote: »

They derive from the state to which they pay their taxes, as to the breakdown, i'm not sure,

But surely if English speaking Ireland were a viable cultural group, they would be able to support these services without the 'crutch of state support'?

If and when the English speakers completely cut themselves off from the all state funded supports and services provided through English, then it is fair to expect Irish speakers to do the same.

This is all little more than space filler.
English is our common language. An aptitude in the common language is essential to be a fully integrated member of society. So it needs to be taught in school.
Beyond that, the state is just catering for the common language. If that was Irish, or more likely at this stage Polish and Chinese, then they would operate in that language instead.
Your hospitals imposing English allegation is utterly bizarre. Pretty sure they treat non-English speakers and neonates who don't speak any language at all exactly the same, but you could put me right on that if you like.

Reiver · 04-09-2015 11:29am

Shep_Dog wrote: »

I read that the problem was that younger Irish-speakers were switching to English, so that they could communicate with their English-speaking friends.

From my own experiences in Kerry and Galway that would be the case. Normally they don't want to make someone feel alienated which is fair enough. I'd speak Irish with my own friends from out there but we'd switch the moment anyone else entered the conversation (or when my vocab doesn't work for a technical discussion of something).

The Irish language is failing.

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