The Irish language is failing.

Filmer Paradise

Letree wrote: »

The Irish language is failing? No.. the Irish language has failed.

No it hasn't. It's just a language like any other.

Not many speak it now mind!

It's cheerleaders have failed though. Too busy sucking at the teat to notice how much damage they've done to their 'cause'.

As long as they lie flat on their backs & let the gravy flow into their gullets, they're happy. (Govt policy has given these types free reign for many decades after all) Therefore explains the lifelong sense of entitlement that the average Galegore has.

Nose in the though like pigs for 90 years & long it may continue!

And that's all that matters to them. Fook everyone else!

Dig deep into your pockets folks & support a good cause.

Just like you've always done.

Keep your money coming to them. Gwan, keep them on their Hobbyhorse.

You know it makes sense....

GekkePrutser

Banjoxed wrote: »

Think the problems that the Irish language have are too deep seated for it to matter a damn who the minister is. Generations of us under all governments were taught the language badly and left school with no love for what was an obligation.

I think you're on to something there. Obligation of classes not necessary in regular life does not create affection but resentment.

I'm not Irish and I didn't grow up here, but in Holland I was obliged to do Dutch literature as part of secondary school. I'm a real techy/science person and while my Dutch grammar and spelling are excellent (I got a 9 out of 10 at my final exam), I didn't care for the quasi-psychological mumbo-jumbo that comes with the "high-class" literature exam. In fact I couldn't make heads or tails of it, it's just not my thing and I badly failed that exam (luckily the above score dragged my average up to a pass). Just because I did not see the same 'meaning' in these books as the Dutch intellectual community thought I should. I hated being forced to do it because I would never need these skills in my life anyway.

So, I vowed never to read Dutch literature anymore. I might read magazines and simple fiction books but never the highly-praised literal works. And I never will again.

So there you have it, if I had not been forced to do it, I may have read some of these works on my own and enjoyed them. Now I will never get the chance.

I imagine that the Irish situation is very similar. Whenever I asked Irish people about it I get answers like '12 years of misery'.. Clearly this 'forced love' approach is not working.

I personally think that pulling back this requirement from schools (and some public jobs) will actually make people like the Irish language more.

Shep_Dog

AnLonDubh wrote: »

Conradh na Gaeilge was reformed under Piaras Béaslaí and Eoin Mac Néill, who altered the aim of the organisation. The original founding charter under Hyde does not have reinstating Irish as the main language as one of its aims. Hyde in fact left Conradh na Gaeilge for reasons like this.

Thank you for the detailed explanation. I think we can agree that Hyde would disapprove of the continued existence of Conradh and the failure to de-Anglicise Ireland?

Shep_Dog

Dughorm wrote: »

Do you feel that Irish speakers dish out more abuse than the population at large?

How would one measure that?

But, it is concerning if they are using state funded media to foment this abuse and are not being held accountable for it as, being in Irish, the content might escape objective scrutiny.

Dan_Solo

feargale wrote: »

Typical of your schoolboy debating style, you miss the point. I did not equate inability to speak a language with ignorance. I equated pride in one's inability with ignorance. But don't let accuracy get in the way of scoring a puerile point.

And you equate not giving a **** about something that makes no difference whatsoever to 99% of the population's lives, other than being a pain in the hole, as pride.
So I did score a point after all? If you insist. Anyway, you must love things that you think are puerile, seeing as your beloved language is only really spoken by children.

Dughorm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Anyway, you must love things that you think are puerile, seeing as your beloved language is only really spoken by children.

I thought it was dead because it was only spoken by old people?

So perhaps a young generation of Irish speakers who "really" speak the language will bring a new vigour and energy to the language then?

Dughorm

Shep_Dog wrote: »

How would one measure that?

But, it is concerning if they are using state funded media to foment this abuse and are not being held accountable for it as, being in Irish, the content might escape objective scrutiny.

That would be up to you. But I think without some measure of whether Irish speakers deliver more "abuse", perhaps you shouldn't place such a focus on Irish speakers' "abuse" any more than that of the population as a whole.

5W30

It's not used at all in every day life but I'd say it's far from dying. At the end of the day kids are still being taught how to speak Irish in school so it probably will not die.

Rather than just moaning about whether it is dead or not, how about a bit of positivity and look at ways to support learners.

One thing that would help people to learn the language quite cheaply would be to use one of the "spare" saorview channels for broadcasting back to back Irish lessons, they can simply reuse the older RTE produced material at zero cost.


*each Mux had 8 channels, and all are itransmitted whether there is anything to send or otherwise

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

I thought it was dead because it was only spoken by old people?

So perhaps a young generation of Irish speakers who "really" speak the language will bring a new vigour and energy to the language then?

Another misquote. Quelle surprise.
The only people who want to speak it are old people, and not that many of those either. You seem to have a rather confused take on the meanings of the words "frequency" and "popularity".

feargale

Dan_Solo wrote: »

And you equate not giving a **** about something that makes no difference whatsoever to 99% of the population's lives, other than being a pain in the hole, as pride.

Given the quality of your vocabulary here, perhaps, rather than being obsessed with Irish, you should concentrate on the other official language of the state. In any event, it can't be good for you to devote so much of your thinking to something you hate so much, even if you enjoy that sort of thing.

Dan_Solo wrote: »

So I did score several puerile points after all. If you insist.

FYP. Yes, I insist.

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Anyway, you must love things that you think are puerile, seeing as your beloved language is only really spoken by children.

The level of aggression shown by you here would befit a ten year old, or an adult of similar stature.

Reiver

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Another misquote. Quelle surprise.
The only people who want to speak it are old people, and not that many of those either. You seem to have a rather confused take on the meanings of the words "frequency" and "popularity".

And there was me at 22 thinking I was young. :eek:

Ah well next is the pension.

eviltwin

I never speak it because I never had a need to speak it and now I've forgotten it. I did French and Spanish in school and get a real pleasure out of those, maybe it's something to do with having chosen them myself. I just don't have any affection for irish. It's as relevant to me as Latin or finnish...just not a language I'd ever have any use for.

Dughorm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Another misquote. Quelle surprise.
The only people who want to speak it are old people, and not that many of those either. You seem to have a rather confused take on the meanings of the words "frequency" and "popularity".

You said "our beloved language is only really spoken by children" and I noted your error. No misquote there. Of course people of all ages speak the language!

And what is your evidence that "the only people who want to speak it are old people"? I'm not in that bracket yet I want to speak it....

Put away your broom and sweeping statements!

Dughorm

eviltwin wrote: »

I never speak it because I never had a need to speak it and now I've forgotten it. I did French and Spanish in school and get a real pleasure out of those, maybe it's something to do with having chosen them myself. I just don't have any affection for irish. It's as relevant to me as Latin or finnish...just not a language I'd ever have any use for.

This is such a reasonable answer. A language is such a personal choice, you enjoy French and Spanish, as do I, but I never had any time for German, it just was not a language that I liked, but of course I don't diss Germans or their lovely language, it just wasn't for me.

feargale

Reiver wrote: »

And there was me at 22 thinking I was young. :eek:

Ah well next is the pension.

dr.fuzzenstein

Reiver wrote: »

And there was me at 22 thinking I was young. :eek:

Ah well next is the pension.

I tried that already, the bastards wouldn't let me retire at 40, something about not being old enough. Frankly I think that's ageist, I'm considering bringing a case before the European court of human rights.

Dan_Solo

feargale wrote: »

Given the quality of your vocabulary here, perhaps, rather than being obsessed with Irish, you should concentrate on the other official language of the state. In any event, it can't be good for you to devote so much of your thinking to something you hate so much, even if you enjoy that sort of thing.

Quality? Was there something you couldn't understand? There's English classes available for your level I'm sure?

feargale wrote: »

FYP. Yes, I insist.

You insist I scored several points... I know, I already said thanks for admitting this.

feargale wrote: »

The level of aggression shown by you here would befit a ten year old, or an adult of similar stature.

Woah, we're through the looking glass here! So young people and short people are particularly aggressive? Was this study performed in the same bizarre non-sequitur institute where your increasing popularity of Irish study came from?

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

This is such a reasonable answer. A language is such a personal choice, you enjoy French and Spanish, as do I, but I never had any time for German, it just was not a language that I liked, but of course I don't diss Germans or their lovely language, it just wasn't for me.

But you do however insist that everyone learn the language you like. Pretty much for no other reason than you like it.

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

You said "our beloved language is only really spoken by children" and I noted your error. No misquote there. Of course people of all ages speak the language!

And what is your evidence that "the only people who want to speak it are old people"? I'm not in that bracket yet I want to speak it....

Put away your broom and sweeping statements!

Let's see... all schoolkids are forced to (try) to speak it.
Outside of school about 1% of people speak it.
So yeah, basically it's a language for children. Get over it.

Dughorm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

But you do however insist that everyone learn the language you like. Pretty much for no other reason than you like it.

Nope that's not my argument. I like French and Spanish as I said but I don't insist everyone learn them.

The difference is that Irish is one of our national languages, but as I'm sure you're aware I'm not in the habit of repeating myself!

eviltwin

Dughorm wrote: »

This is such a reasonable answer. A language is such a personal choice, you enjoy French and Spanish, as do I, but I never had any time for German, it just was not a language that I liked, but of course I don't diss Germans or their lovely language, it just wasn't for me.

I don't hate the language but I find it redundant. So many real languages out there and we force our youth to learn irish. It's unfair to them and a wasted opportunity.

eviltwin

Dughorm wrote: »

Nope that's not my argument. I like French and Spanish as I said but I don't insist everyone learn them.

The difference is that Irish is one of our national languages, but as I'm sure you're aware I'm not in the habit of repeating myself!

Why should it's status as a national language matter? We don't force our kids to learn GAA or Irish dance, why force them to learn the language?

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

Nope that's not my argument. I like French and Spanish as I said but I don't insist everyone learn them.

The difference is that Irish is one of our national languages, but as I'm sure you're aware I'm not in the habit of repeating myself!

You could repeat why Irish should be mandatory just because it is one of our two national languages, and one that nobody actually wants to speak and is of zero use to anybody.

Carlos Orange

Dughorm wrote: »

The difference is that Irish is one of our national languages, but as I'm sure you're aware I'm not in the habit of repeating myself!

Irish has a legal status but practically it isn't one of our national languages. We only have one of those. At best it is a regional language.

Dughorm

eviltwin wrote: »

Why should it's status as a national language matter?

It's of crucial importance - a national education system should include education in the national languages for it to be a true liberal arts education delivered here.

But it depends on what your philosophy of education is all about!

eviltwin wrote: »

We don't force our kids to learn GAA or Irish dance, why force them to learn the language?

You must have gotten off lightly if you didn't have to do GAA/Irish dance in school

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

It's of crucial importance - a national education system should include education in the national languages for it to be a true liberal arts education delivered here.

You definitely have never repeated why this is the case.
Because you've still never told us why.

eviltwin

Dughorm wrote: »

It's of crucial importance - a national education system should include education in the national languages for it to be a true liberal arts education delivered here.

But it depends on what your philosophy of education is all about!



You must have gotten off lightly if you didn't have to do GAA/Irish dance in school

Nothing liberal about trying to make the Irish language happen by forcing it down kids throats. Generations of that has failed. Time to admit it and try something new.

Dughorm

eviltwin wrote: »

Nothing liberal about trying to make the Irish language happen by forcing it down kids throats. Generations of that has failed. Time to admit it and try something new.

Liberal arts doesn't equal liberal politics!!

Are you against forcing Shakespeare down kids throats?

Dughorm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

You definitely have never repeated why this is the case.
Because you've still never told us why.

Indeed I did. Go re-read my posts about my philosophy of education.

eviltwin

Dughorm wrote: »

Liberal arts doesn't equal liberal politics!!

Are you against forcing Shakespeare down kids throats?

To an extent I would be, yeah. I think education in general is far too rigid and doesn't provide much scope. But then I suppose it's time limited. There is value in reading and discussing plays and poems, don't know why it can't be a broader course to allow other works to be included though. I'm no fan of Shakespeare but I do feel I actually learnt something in English class. I can't say that for irish.

Reiver

eviltwin wrote: »

I don't hate the language but I find it redundant. So many real languages out there and we force our youth to learn irish. It's unfair to them and a wasted opportunity.

Real?

Well the languages education in Ireland is shocking. Anglophones always are. Even if the Irish curriculum was similar to that of German/French/Spanish in secondary schools, it'd still be ****. How many people leave school knowing a second language in Ireland?

Letree

Deleted User wrote: »

Rather than just moaning about whether it is dead or not, how about a bit of positivity and look at ways to support learners.

One thing that would help people to learn the language quite cheaply would be to use one of the "spare" saorview channels for broadcasting back to back Irish lessons, they can simply reuse the older RTE produced material at zero cost.


*each Mux had 8 channels, and all are itransmitted whether there is anything to send or otherwise

Many people out there including myself want to let it die. I don't want to prolong it by supporting people to learn more of it. It is not going to be used as a genuine national language and never will. What we currently have is a farce.

Letree

Letree wrote: »

Many people out there including myself want to let it die. I don't want to prolong it by supporting people to learn more of it. It is not going to be used as a genuine national language and never will. What we currently have is a farce.

The method of support that I am suggesting has virtually zero cost involved, if you're not interested in learning then you just ignore the channel.

Trabejo

Deleted User wrote: »

The method of support that I am suggesting has virtually zero cost involved, if you're not interested in learning then you just ignore the channel.

It's never that simple pal. We don't need another TG4

Shep_Dog

Dughorm wrote: »

Liberal arts doesn't equal liberal politics!!

Are you against forcing Shakespeare down kids throats?

There is a difference between educating children in the rich heritage of their native English language and forcing them to learn another, alien language.

Ethics are a core part of a Liberal arts education, a subject Irish enthusiasts have little experience of, if we judge by their actions in the past 80 years.

Trabejo

Trabejo wrote: »

It's never that simple pal. We don't need another TG4

It is that simple, if you don't want to view the channel you don't need to.
Pal! (that's a dog food :rolleyes:)

Trabejo

Deleted User wrote: »

It is that simple, if you don't want to view the channel you don't need to.
Pal! (that's a dog food :rolleyes:)

Pal its annoying to have to flick through channels of gibberish. And then you run the risk of them getting the rights to sporting events and ruining what should be great sporting occasions.

Dan_Solo

Dughorm wrote: »

Indeed I did. Go re-read my posts about my philosophy of education.

Yeah, it's back there where you posted next week's winning lotto numbers and the third secret of Fatima.
Nice try. You never told us.

Dan_Solo

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It is that simple, if you don't want to view the channel you don't need to.
Pal! (that's a dog food :rolleyes:)

Sorry chum.
There could be a channel per Irish speaker, nobody else wants it.

Trabejo

Trabejo wrote: »

Pal its annoying to have to flick through channels of gibberish. And then you run the risk of them getting the rights to sporting events and ruining what should be great sporting occasions.

You need to learn how to use a remote control if you flick through all the channels you don't want to watch.

Gael Mire

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Outside of school about 1% of people speak it.

Again, where are you getting these figures from, source please.

Gael Mire

Letree wrote: »

Many people out there including myself want to let it die.

Many? That's a bit optimistic. A handful of loud people more like.

But at least you have the honesty to admit your position. That is so much better than those hypocrites who claim to love Irish while doing all they can to hinder and undermine anything done to protect it.

Afollower

Hi, can I stick my oar in here -
I sent both of my children to a Gaelscoil and found that rather than instill a love of the language it had the opposite effect. The reason being, the majority of the teachers were Irish 'fanatics' and the children were punished if they were caught speaking Bearla - even in the playground. The fact that English was the first language of the majority of the children didn't come in to it at all - the teachers couldn't seem to comprehend that children at play are supposed to be enjoying themselves and not concentrating on speaking Irish when shouting to their pals to pass the ball, etc.
Basically, the language was shoved down their throats and they couldn't wait to get out of there.
On the plus side, it did stand to them in Secondary school that they had been immersed in the language from an early age and didn't find Irish as difficult a subject as their peers.

RossyG

Deleted User wrote: »

As Daniel O'Connell infamously, but felicitously, put it in 1832:

Bloody hell, has he been around that long. I hope he'll be all right for Strictly.

Dan_Solo

Gael Mire wrote: »

Again, where are you getting these figures from, source please.

Census.
Do you have other data?

Dan_Solo

Gael Mire wrote: »

Many? That's a bit optimistic. A handful of loud people more like.

Hardly as loud as the even rarer Gailgeban cultural supremacy brigade.
Many of whom would be hit in the pocket big time if it wasn't force fed to this English speaking country.

Gael Mire

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Census.
Do you have other data?

The census does not support your claims that less than 1% of Irish people speak Irish. So do you withdraw the claim?

Shep_Dog

Gael Mire wrote: »

The census does not support your claims that less than 1% of Irish people speak Irish. So do you withdraw the claim?

Maybe he's referring to the percentage who voluntarily speak Irish and not English, all day, every day, as part of their daily lives? You, know, like, as their primary, native language? Not just as an intellectual hobby or to impress others, but as a real-life functioning language?

Hobbyist 'Cupla Focal' speakers and those forced to speak Irish at school, should not count.

Dan_Solo

Gael Mire wrote: »

The census does not support your claims that less than 1% of Irish people speak Irish. So do you withdraw the claim?

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/irish-now-the-third-most-spoken-language-in-ireland-after-english-and-polish-145200025-237438651.html
And that percentage has fallen since the previous census. We should have some state Polish media and force feed every kid in the country Polish too, right?
Have you got any data you would care to present otherwise?