The Irish language is failing.

demanufactured

It's a dead language.

Shrap

ThinkProgress wrote: »

Yep, makes you wonder. It can't just be the poor teaching though. (not bashing irish teachers, it's mostly the system tbh)

Yes, honestly, this teacher was the nicest guy! Too young to be sounding as burned out as he did though. I was full of empathy for his position but couldn't hope to retrieve the sense of achievement my son was meant to feel in knowing enough of the curriculum to pass at that stage. We decided his time was better spent trying to study something else at the back of Irish class (which proved a distraction in both directions unfortunately). The system is truly untenable, and it certainly can't be blamed on the likes of my 2nd generation aversion to the curricular enforcement.

If it's so natural to us, why do so many of us seem to have such an aversion to learning it?

I love my country and it's culture, but the language? I have no deep connection to it. Although I don't hate it.

Y'know, I think I was always aware (although I'd never heard native Irish spoken during primary) that this was no way to learn a language. I was precocious enough alright, but it certainly occured to me that I'd never heard Irish except on Nuacht and I was already aware that to speak/understand it properly, I'd have to go away from my parents to the scary Gaeltacht (something they would never be able to afford). I was uneasy about the fact nobody around me spoke it, at an early age - 8 at the latest. All downhill from there I'm afraid, and I don't see what's changed much.

Aineoil

Grayson wrote: »

In my final year in school I tried to give up Irish. I had an exemption from the NUI colleges because I was born outside the 32 counties. So my parents approached my headmaster. He said I couldn't stop attending the classes so I'd sit in the back of the class and study other subjects.

In fairness that wasn't the headmaster being awkward. The directive from

the Department of Education and Science in primary school is that children have to

partake in oral Irish lessons. I don't know about secondary schools.

I'm not sure where the DES based that rationale on?

Iwasfrozen

Grayson wrote: »

On a slightly separate note someone said earlier (I think it was this thread) that they worked in financial services and felt that they never used the maths they learned in school. All I could think was "that explains the banking crises"

It's absolutely impossible that anyone can work in finance without using secondary school maths.

Bored_lad

Shrap wrote: »

I actually puked with nerves before my Irish oral, and cried during it because I'd never opened my mouth to speak the sentences I'd learned at any stage in secondary. During the written, I couldn't make head nor tail of the questions, so I came out with an F.

I had genuinely and sincerely not wanted to learn Irish from age 12 on, and so I didn't. Not having it held me back though and I had to go to college in the UK due to failing Irish when I'd wanted to go to Cork. My eldest cannot apply to at least 3 colleges that he would have liked because he's taken a similar approach to the subject. Hmmm, can't think why we resent our "native" language....anyone else?! :pac:

Have you ever considered you failed Irish and can't speak the language because you quit. At the age of 12 you just decided to stop working and not try and learn if you had done the same thing in the 6/7 other subjects that you sat for the leaving cert I can't imagine you would have passed either. You can blame poor teaching and the out dated curriculum and say the language is dead but you really need to look at yourself and take responsibility for your own actions.

It is people like you who are the reason the language is struggling you can not expect to be fluent in any language unless you work at it. You obviously don't respect the language and have passed this on to your son thus limiting his opportunities in life such as where he will go to college etc.

Iwasfrozen

Bored_lad wrote: »

Have you ever considered you failed Irish and can't speak the language because you quit. At the age of 12 you just decided to stop working and not try and learn if you had done the same thing in the 6/7 other subjects that you sat for the leaving cert I can't imagine you would have passed either. You can blame poor teaching and the out dated curriculum and say the language is dead but you really need to look at yourself and take responsibility for your own actions.

It is people like you who are the reason the language is struggling you can not expect to be fluent in any language unless you work at it. You obviously don't respect the language and have passed this on to your son thus limiting his opportunities in life such as where he will go to college etc.

Make it optional, those who want to "respect it" (your definition of respect) can do so. The rest of us can put that time to better use.

Berating someone for not putting effort into something they are forced to do is a pretty crappy thing to do tbh.

4zn76tysfajdxp

demanufactured wrote: »

It's a dead language.

It's not a dead language.

riclad

i never spoke any irish, we just read books ,short storys in irish .
it was the one subject i had no interest in at all.
The books we had were all about farmers ,rural people ,people fighting the english rule .or about the famine .
The writing was very old fashioned ,
it was designed as if to show anyone who spoke irish was narrow minded ,
english hating or poor .
eg of no relevance to modern life or of any relevance to someone from an urban area .
There was no writing about anyone that lived after 1970 .

We just had written exams as far as i can remember .
I Regard irish as something like poetry, folk music , playing the fiddle ,
part of our culture ,
it would be better if we made it voluntary,
after year 1 you can learn irish ,or do another subject like, french,
chemistry,
eg a modern subject which might be of use to you when you are looking for work.

I think young people rebel against it because they think irish is a dead language ,
its badly taught ,
and its of no use as to getting a job ,
unless you want to be a teacher, or work in a job that requires the irish language .
IT,S not a spoken language in most parts of the country .
Yes a lot of people speak it in the gaeltacht ,so i don,t know if its regarded as a dead language by academics .

Reiver

http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/column-gaeilge-is-a-part-of-our-culture-%E2%80%93-how-its-taught-matters-836132-Mar2013/

Interesting comments on the flawed education for it already in place. At least reform is happening, the oral exam is worth 40% now but that's in 6th year, needs to be a change from primary school and upwards.

Shrap

Bored_lad wrote: »

Have you ever considered you failed Irish and can't speak the language because you quit. At the age of 12 you just decided to stop working and not try and learn if you had done the same thing in the 6/7 other subjects that you sat for the leaving cert I can't imagine you would have passed either. You can blame poor teaching and the out dated curriculum and say the language is dead but you really need to look at yourself and take responsibility for your own actions.

It is people like you who are the reason the language is struggling you can not expect to be fluent in any language unless you work at it. You obviously don't respect the language and have passed this on to your son thus limiting his opportunities in life such as where he will go to college etc.

Ha ha, thanks! I find it quite superbly Irish that you could have a go at a 12 year old Irish me for not adequately responding (in your view) to the gin-soaked Irish teacher renowned for taking long toilet breaks and then being easily distracted by the teenage side-tracking onto issues such as sexism in the workbooks, the pedantry of pronunciation and grammatical considerations.

Or perhaps you could blame the 15 year old me for the next unfortunate Irish teacher who had a nervous breakdown in front of our class (properly burned out) and threw a class mate up against a wall? Thereafter, he droned out Peig at great length while we creatively scribed on the book, changing her name to "b1tch". But yeah, blame the youth. Good plan. A well trod plan, mind you.

It is absurd of you to indicate that I didn't try my utmost with my own children. I laboured over their Irish homework with them throughout primary school and fobbed off their "what USE is this?" with "Well, it's our language and you might not get to go to the college you want unless we do this homework...". By the time my youngest hit secondary (last year) I was ready to explain to the principal that I personally couldn't do another 6 years of Irish homework with someone who hadn't a notion, through NO FAULT of my own. She rather aptly said (as my kids are older than her's) "Well, in fairness you've actually done more years studying Irish than I have, and I'm an Irish teacher". She totally understood. Don't see why you can't make the same leap of imagination as to how someone might have another generation of Irish language students in despair over the subject, but maybe you're a little hung-up on it.

Aineoil

I speak Irish fluently. My husband is a native speaker.

Do I care whether people speak Irish or not? I don't.

I think the school curriculum should be changed to reflect what people feel about the language.

We need a curriculum that appreciates the language without pretending that we are all going to speak it.

I feel sad that it has come to this but I like to think I'm a realist.

Shrap

Aineoil wrote: »

I speak Irish fluently. My husband is a native speaker.

Do I care whether people speak Irish or not? I don't.

I think the school curriculum should be changed to reflect what people feel about the language.

We need a curriculum that appreciates the language without pretending that we are all going to speak it.

I feel sad that it has come to this but I like to think I'm a realist.

Jaysus, well said. And thanks.

Ticking and Bashing

How is Gaeilge taught any differently from any other language! languages are usually taught the same - ie there's an oral, aural, written exam and are all equally forced on you! So any complaints re Gaeilge being taught badly is errrmm... An excuse!!!
Caithfidh muid iarracht níos mó Gaeilge a úsaid Nár úsaid muid í i rith an reifreann - vótáil tá!!

Shrap

Ticking and Bashing wrote: »

How is Gaeilge taught any differently from any other language! languages are usually taught the same - ie there's an oral, aural, written exam and are all equally forced on you! So any complaints re Gaeilge being taught badly is errrmm... An excuse!!!
Caithfidh muid iarracht níos mó Gaeilge a úsaid Nár úsaid muid í i rith an reifreann - vótáil tá!!

Great. Maith thú *learned from son's primary work-book*

NO EXCUSE!!! IRLAND UBER ALLES!....Oh wait, sorry, I slip into German so easily......

Grayson

Aineoil wrote: »

In fairness that wasn't the headmaster being awkward. The directive from

the Department of Education and Science in primary school is that children have to

partake in oral Irish lessons. I don't know about secondary schools.

I'm not sure where the DES based that rationale on?

It was secondary school. the headmaster said the school got funding for every kid that did Irish. So I had to stay in the class but I could study whatever I want.

Shep_Dog

Reiver wrote: »

Interesting comments on the flawed education for it already in place. At least reform is happening, the oral exam is worth 40% now but that's in 6th year, needs to be a change from primary school and upwards.

The greatest reform of all would be to make learning Irish voluntary. But that would require the Irish lobby to show confidence in the merits of Irish.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Ticking and Bashing wrote: »

How is Gaeilge taught any differently from any other language! languages are usually taught the same - ie there's an oral, aural, written exam and are all equally forced on you! So any complaints re Gaeilge being taught badly is errrmm... An excuse!!!
Caithfidh muid iarracht níos mó Gaeilge a úsaid Nár úsaid muid í i rith an reifreann - vótáil tá!!

No, they're not. It varies denpending on whether the person is learnign it as their first langauge or not.

Also, your point that the way langauges are taught is to pass oral, aural and wiritten exams is somewhat daft, not to mention endemic of the problem. Some poeple learn lagauges for reasons of travel, relocation or even just as a hobby - no exams required - and for some reason, that idea is alien to the peoeple who think that the way Irish is taugh is in some way positive.

ThinkProgress

Alice Gifted Zenith wrote: »

It's not a dead language.

If it's not dead, it's certainly on life support.

Nobody wants to be the one to turn the switch off. They'll be labelled as unpatriotic or a west brit or something stupid like that! :P

Aineoil

Shrap wrote: »

Jaysus, well said. And thanks.

I'm just fed up of the crap about the language.

If you felt Peig murdered you - fine. (and you'd be ancient like me if you studied Peig)

If you hate Irish - fine.

If you like Irish - fine.

I really don't care.

Bad teaching of Irish? I could say the same of maths.

The teaching of maths in the 1970's was just awful.

It was all computation and no problem solving.

NIMAN

My little boy of 5 seems to be grasping Irish fairly well, not sure how much they teach it in junior infants? My OH tries to chat to him the odd time in Irish as she would like him to have a good knowledge of it.

As for me, and I speak as someone coming from outside the RoI education system, if I had my choice I would much rather he learned German, Spanish or French rather than Irish. I don't believe in its compulsory status.

ThinkProgress

Shep_Dog wrote: »

The greatest reform of all would be to make learning Irish voluntary. But that would require the Irish lobby to show confidence in the merits of Irish.

They know if they made it voluntary tomorrow, the language would probably be dead within a few years. (except for a few pockets here and there)

So, basically the language is being kept alive artificially by forcing it on us. (at the cost of many millions to the tax payer)

Aineoil

ThinkProgress wrote: »

If it's not dead, it's certainly on life support.

Nobody wants to be the one to turn the switch off. They'll be labelled as unpatriotic or a west brit or something stupid like that! :P

It would be a brave government that would do that. But Gaeilge is alive in the Gaelscoileanna.

Iwasfrozen

I have never heard one non nationalist reason why I should speak Irish.

Iwasfrozen

Aineoil wrote: »

It would be a brave government that would do that. But Gaeilge is alive in the Gaelscoileanna.

Were Irish to be made optional in the leaving do you think these schools would be so popular? I don't think so.

Personally I think we should put more effort into STEM subjects in primary school and less religion / Irish.

I don't know if it's still the same but when I was younger children entered secondary school without even knowing what algebra is! :eek:

tipparetops

do not understand the attitude among some posters.
You should all start again with the language. give it another chance.
Irish is not as hard to learn as some here think. It is in our blood, you just have to show some effort.
with 2016 celebrations coming up, what better way to show some patriotism.

Iwasfrozen

tipparetops wrote: »

do not understand the attitude among some posters.
You should all start again with the language. give it another chance.
Irish is not as hard to learn as some here think. It is in our blood, you just have to show some effort.
with 2016 celebrations coming up, what better way to show some patriotism.

Why should we?

Reiver

Hated it in school. Be relearning it for a year now. I dropped down to pass in 6th year because I couldn't hack writing essays and An Triail.

Not just learning for nationalistic reasons but because believe it or not, it helps with other languages. Already knew German and learning Polish as well. Learning a language helps you learn more and Irish it seems was already half-learned, just tucked away in my head. Nothing wrong with some extra knowledge.

Shrap

Aineoil wrote: »

I'm just fed up of the crap about the language.

Don't blame you and am hoping you don't blame me either. Am honestly an innocent party in the debacle the school system threw out, no better and no worse than any other, and certainly no less Irish by dint of not speaking or loving the language....although it feels like some would have it so.

If you felt Peig murdered you - fine. (and you'd be ancient like me if you studied Peig)

If you hate Irish - fine.

If you like Irish - fine.

I really don't care.

Bad teaching of Irish? I could say the same of maths.

The teaching of maths in the 1970's was just awful.

It was all computation and no problem solving.

Indeed I am as ancient as you so! I totally agree that you either like it or dislike it (Irish), and either way doesn't make you any more or less Irish than the other. However, the compulsory aspect, combined with the distinct advantages given to those who pass, cannot be construed as equal treatment in a country where virtually no Irish is spoken. Yes, the teaching of maths was awful, and I'm not in a position to comment on any improvement in the area, but at least not having maths doesn't rule you out of a whole University, whereas not having Irish can and does.

tipparetops

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Why should we?

Sorry i was posting to Irish people, not people in general.

Aineoil

I don't have firm ideas about the Irish language - you either speak it or you don't.

One day I was speaking Irish to another work colleague because it was natural to do so, another work colleague heard us and asked us "to stop

raving".

Iwasfrozen

tipparetops wrote: »

Sorry i was posting to Irish people, not people in general.

Checks passport,

I'm Irish. Now answer the question.

Shrap

Aineoil wrote: »

I don't have firm ideas about the Irish language - you either speak it or you don't.

One day I was speaking Irish to another work colleague because it was natural to do so, another work colleague heard us and asked us "to stop

raving".

'Tis a pity you don't have firm ideas on whether Irish students should be discriminated against by having Irish or not, in the basic admissions policy of most universities. It would actually help the language if you did have some opinion on it.

tipparetops

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Checks passport,

I'm Irish. Now answer the question.

You are Irish, yet you seem to have such a terrible attitude to our language.
Where did it go all wrong?

My answer to you,
I am proud to be Irish, and I show that pride by speaking the Irish language with as many people as I can.
I just wish others felt the same.

dissed doc

Knasher wrote: »

I've long been of the opinion that all languages but English are going to decline in the long term. It is the language of the internet and of most mass market entertainment, more and more people learn it as a second language, and unlike people with English as a primary language, they actually have cause to use it.

Actually, English is the one on the decline, especially in the area of the internet, and it has been for years now. English will be number 4, after Spanish, Mandarin and Arabic, within around 20 years. English is still the dominant language of the internet now, at around 50% of websites are in English. But, is has been steadily declining for years.

Bored_lad

Aineoil wrote: »

I don't have firm ideas about the Irish language - you either speak it or you don't.

One day I was speaking Irish to another work colleague because it was natural to do so, another work colleague heard us and asked us "to stop

raving".

This is the huge problem the language can't succeed and grow until people stop judging us for using it and trying to promote it.

Shep_Dog

tipparetops wrote: »

You should all start again with the language. give it another chance.

What's with 'the'? We have two languages or does English not count?

tipparetops wrote: »

It is in our blood,

Piffle, empty rhetoric.

tipparetops wrote: »

with 2016 celebrations coming up, what better way to show some patriotism.

There are many better ways, such as being real and in the present and honest about it being OK to be Irish and speaking English. Times have changed, The Catholic Church no longer controls the government, Gay marriage is even possible. Now, it's time to stand up to the language zealots.

Let's make it OK to say 'no' to Irish and celebrate what we are, and not what we were.

Iwasfrozen

tipparetops wrote: »

You are Irish, yet you seem to have such a terrible attitude to our language.
Where did it go all wrong?

My answer to you,
I am proud to be Irish, and I show that pride by speaking the Irish language with as many people as I can.
I just wish others felt the same.

It's not our language. Like most Irish people my language is English.

You can wish all you want but Ireland is an English speaking country and Ireland will remain an English speaking country.

I have no problem with people speaking Irish as long as they don't try to force it onto other people.

Grayson

Aineoil wrote: »

I'm just fed up of the crap about the language.

If you felt Peig murdered you - fine. (and you'd be ancient like me if you studied Peig)

If you hate Irish - fine.

If you like Irish - fine.

I really don't care.

Bad teaching of Irish? I could say the same of maths.

The teaching of maths in the 1970's was just awful.

It was all computation and no problem solving.

I've seen textbooks from the 70's they were all horrible. Maths included. But in the 80's and 90's the maths books were better. Irish was still the same. Same poems and same prose

ThinkProgress

tipparetops wrote: »

Sorry i was posting to Irish people, not people in general.

I'm Irish too, I'd like to know more about this patriotism you speak of? What's it like?

Since I speak almost no Irish, I've actually never experienced anything like that. :rolleyes:

tipparetops

Shrap wrote: »

'Tis a pity you don't have firm ideas on whether Irish students should be discriminated against by having Irish or not, in the basic admissions policy of most universities. It would actually help the language if you did have some opinion on it.

Being honest, if you cannot make some attempt at LC Irish, you really have to question are you ready for University.

Un Croissant

tipparetops wrote: »

Being honest, if you cannot make some attempt at LC Irish, you really have to question are you ready for University.

Oh no! You're the one I was worried about

tawnyowl

UCDVet wrote: »

I was absolutely amazed at how quickly and effectively my phone can translate languages. I went to France and I could record people talking in French, and read it in English, I could snap pictures of signs in French and see it in English, and I can type something in English and have it read aloud in French.

I can only imagine how much better it'll be in 10 years.

I just don't see any point in learning a second language these days.

The quality of the phone translation can vary. For instance, I tried translating "Bear with me" into French using Google Translate app and it became "Ours avec moi". That's a literal translation of a colloquialism.

ThinkProgress

dissed doc wrote: »

Actually, English is the one on the decline, especially in the area of the internet, and it has been for years now. English will be number 4, after Spanish, Mandarin and Arabic, within around 20 years. English is still the dominant language of the internet now, at around 50% of websites are in English. But, is has been steadily declining for years.

:eek: WOW! 4th place??

Where is Irish?

Iwasfrozen

dissed doc wrote: »

Actually, English is the one on the decline, especially in the area of the internet, and it has been for years now. English will be number 4, after Spanish, Mandarin and Arabic, within around 20 years. English is still the dominant language of the internet now, at around 50% of websites are in English. But, is has been steadily declining for years.

What makes you think it will decline? English has far more total speakers than Spanish or Arabic. The latter is barely even one language anymore.

Shrap

tipparetops wrote: »

Being honest, if you cannot make some attempt at LC Irish, you really have to question are you ready for University.

That's actually reportable, as you are basically calling me stupid (which I am quite patently not). I'm thinking you're seriously out of order in saying that. I shall henceforth ignore you, byes :pac:

Aineoil

Shrap wrote: »

Don't blame you and am hoping you don't blame me either. Am honestly an innocent party in the debacle the school system threw out, no better and no worse than any other, and certainly no less Irish by dint of not speaking or loving the language....although it feels like some would have it so.



Indeed I am as ancient as you so! I totally agree that you either like it or dislike it (Irish), and either way doesn't make you any more or less Irish than the other. However, the compulsory aspect, combined with the distinct advantages given to those who pass, cannot be construed as equal treatment in a country where virtually no Irish is spoken. Yes, the teaching of maths was awful, and I'm not in a position to comment on any improvement in the area, but at least not having maths doesn't rule you out of a whole University, whereas not having Irish can and does.

I agree with you. Compulsory Irish is just cracked. To need Irish to get into some universities is a bit cracked too.

My husband is a native speaker and I am fluent. Our

son can't string even the most basic sentence together in Irish.

4zn76tysfajdxp

tipparetops wrote: »

Sorry i was posting to Irish people, not people in general.

This is counter-productive. Using Irish for lording over people isn't right.

Reiver

Alice Gifted Zenith wrote: »

This is counter-productive. Using Irish for lording over people isn't right.

Agreed. It's meant to be inclusive.

tipparetops

ThinkProgress wrote: »

I'm Irish too, I'd like to know more about this patriotism you speak of? What's it like?

Since I speak almost no Irish, I've actually never experienced anything like that. :rolleyes:

Just having your name as Gaeilge puts a lump in your throat.

feargale

Shrap wrote: »

'Tis a pity you don't have firm ideas on whether Irish students should be discriminated against by having Irish or not, in the basic admissions policy of most universities. It would actually help the language if you did have some opinion on it.

This is unfair to Aineoil who has told a tale which illustrates to all save the blind that all the rudeness and intolerance attaching to this issue does not rest on one side. You should address that tale before smokescreening it by attempting to drag Aineoil into another issue which, to my knowledge, has not been touched on by Aineoil.