The Irish language is failing.

mickstupp

tipparetops wrote: »

Any student who study's any foundation subject, are not going to university.
If u cannot study even pass level, forget it.

I am not going to let posters say nonsense about foundation Irish holding back students when it is plainly not true.

I failed Irish at pass level. Overall, I didn't get enough points in my Leaving Cert to get into any university course in the country at that time. When I was 30, I went to university, without all those stupid arbitrary restrictions that are imposed until the age of 23. Now I'm doing a PhD. The university, department, and my supervisor all think I'm capable of this.

You would disagree with them wholeheartedly, it seems, and consider me unfit for higher level study simply because I couldn't handle Ordinary level Irish.

Foundation level Irish does hold students back, literally, in an actual real world way. That's because many courses in Irish universities have Ordinary level Irish as an entrance requirement for Irish citizens under the age of 23, despite the fact that almost every one of those courses has no Irish language component whatsoever.

Your opinion is plainly not reflecting reality.

ThinkProgress

I'm by no means an expert on linguistics or the finer points of teaching in general. So this is merely my layman's perspective.

However, something has always struck me as being very odd about the way we teach languages in this country. Particularly Irish, as an earlier poster alluded to the arrogance we have towards our own language - which I certainly agree has a huge influence on how we teach it.

Anyone who has done a bit of travelling in their life will know that one of the first things most of us will do when going to a new unfamiliar country - we buy a phrase book, right? (I do anyway) lol

It's impossible for us to understand the intricate and complicated things about that language, and tbh we don't even have the time or inclination learn about them. We simply start learning off full phrases and sentences! lol

And guess what? Many people can start talking and communicating relatively quickly using this method. Ok, granted they're probably getting a lot of stuff wrong and it might sound a bit weird to the natives - BUT THEY ARE COMMUNICATING - and they are being understood on a very basic level.

Yet we can spend years sitting in a classroom learning verbs and pro nouns, or memorizing sheets of vocabulary. We can even pass exams. But can most of us hold a basic conversation with the person next to us?

It's ridiculous! It seems so obvious to me. I could recognize this even back when I was in school. And many of you guys probably recognize this too. But do our educators? lol

Speaking the language should be the major priority when you start teaching a language. But it's NOT like that in our schools. We waste too much time teaching the wrong stuff from an early age.

I sometimes wonder if I might have learnt more if they just gave us all a phrase book!

We might have had the the verbs and pro nouns mixed up, but we'd still be able to communicate in the language.

And that's really important. Because if you can teach kids to speak the language and have conversations from an early age - they will gain HUGE confidence from that.

But instead we seem to do it all backwards in this country. Resulting in kids that have zero confidence in their ability!

If you want to teach a kid to play football, you don't spend hours explaining the off-side rule. Or tell them what material the ball is made from - YOU THROW THEM A FOOTBALL - and let them PLAY!

But like I said, I'm not a teacher. So maybe I'm just talking out my ar*e! haha

Deranged96

riclad wrote: »

I think 90 per cent of students are only interested in irish cos it gives them
a few points for university acess,
we need a brave politician to stand up and say,
make it voluntary after year 1 .
Face reality, irish is a minority interest, like irish dancing or poetry,
its a cultural treasure ,
Once people leave school they never use irish ,
unless they are a teacher or work in rte/tg4 .
but spending billions on teaching irish is a disaster and a waste of time .
And a shame when we could spend the money on other worthy causes .

Billions on teaching it?
Hardly, unless I'm missing something?

Chloris

ThinkProgress wrote:

If you want to teach a kid to play football, you don't spend hours explaining the off-side rule. Or tell them what material the ball is made from - YOU THROW THEM A FOOTBALL - and let them PLAY!

Have you ever heard children with very little to no Irish when they're encouraged to speak freely? They're unintelligible. They can't say what they want to with even a minute amount of proficiency. They have to engage with the basics first. That's why I'm suggesting a more fun syllabus with interactive course material and teachers who actually know what the f*ck they're doing.

If we really want to save the Irish language, more of the same isn't going to work. It's only going to do irreversible damage in the long run.

ThinkProgress

Chloris wrote: »

Have you ever heard children with very little to no Irish when they're encouraged to speak freely? They're unintelligible. They can't say what they want to with even a minute amount of proficiency. They have to engage with the basics first. That's why I'm suggesting a more fun syllabus with interactive course material and teachers who actually know what the f*ck they're doing.

If we really want to save the Irish language, more of the same isn't going to work. It's only going to do irreversible damage in the long run.

I learnt phrases out of a phrase book when I went on family holidays. I was 5 or 6 years old when I first did that. I'm sure I sounded a bit strange, but I did start to pick it up after a while.

But most importantly, I FELT like I was talking to the locals. And they responded by trying to talk back! End result - CONFIDENCE!

Compare that with learning sheets of vocab or verbs - most kids can't connect those vocab words together in a coherent sentence. They don't gain much confidence from that experience!

I don't know if I'm right, it's just my life experiences and what my instincts tell me FEELS right.

silverfeather

Never went to the Gaeltacht. Everything I learnt seemed to fly away after the leaving. I think I stuck it in there with prickstick.

Madam

psinno wrote: »

Only in Ireland would there be people who think the language spoken by a couple of percent of the population is the national language.

Not only in Ireland - think of the Basques who fought to relearn and keep their language or folk from Brittany - same with the Scots or really any country who's native language was forbidden them! Don't you think it would be a shame to lose such a link to your identity?

Carlos Orange

Madam wrote: »

Not only in Ireland - think of the Basques who fought to relearn and keep their language or folk from Brittany - same with the Scots or really any country who's native language was forbidden them! Don't you think it would be a shame to lose such a link to your identity?

I'd be just fine if people quit trying to shame me into having the same identity they do.

Basque is spoken by about the same percentage of people in Spain as Irish is in Ireland. Nobody considers Basque the national language of Spain.

Adamocovic

I think teaching is a big factor in any language. I learned/improved more from 2-3 months in the Gaeltacht than I ever did in school.

Again it comes down to peoples interest and desire to learn it. Giving a choice might work but I think a lot comes down to how it is taught and what is being taught. It would be nice to make it a bit more modern and change the structure a little (could be wrong maybe it has been).

I think a big thing would be watching Irish speaking tv with English subtitles. It sounds daft but I know people from other countries who have really good English and have credited all the English speaking shows as the main reason.

Adamocovic

psinno wrote: »

I'd be just fine if people quit trying to shame me into having the same identity they do.

Basque is spoken by about the same percentage of people in Spain as Irish is in Ireland. Nobody considers Basque the national language of Spain.

was looking at languages recently (similar to Irish, minority national languages) and I remember in the Basque area something like 30% could speak the language (I dont know from just understanding to fluent or what extent) It is considered their Regional Language. Now thats roughly 500-900 thousand people when the total population of Spain is 40+ million. So overall maybe 1-3% of Spain speak it. It is still recognised as a territorial language.

Ireland I remember 35-40% have some Irish (hard to know how much) and I cant remember fluent speakers but obviously it was very low. (From the census)

Our primary language is recognised as English, theres no debate in that. But also our National Language is Irish. National Language doesnt refer to the most commonly used language rather the language that originated from the area, or the first known language of the place.

An Ciarraioch

psinno wrote: »

I'd be just fine if people quit trying to shame me into having the same identity they do.

Basque is spoken by about the same percentage of people in Spain as Irish is in Ireland. Nobody considers Basque the national language of Spain.

Fair to say if you tell the average Basque that they're Spanish you'll soon get put straight, even if Madrid dictates otherwise!

Carlos Orange

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Fair to say if you tell the average Basque that they're Spanish you'll soon get put straight, even if Madrid dictates otherwise!

Feel free to move to the gaeltacht and start an independence movement.

Iwasfrozen

psinno wrote: »

Feel free to move to the gaeltacht and start an independence movement.

Yes please, then we won't have to deal with their shít.

Deranged96

Problems people have with Irish:

1) "It was taught horrendously to me at school, now I resent it"
2) "Irish speakers have a "more Irish then thou attitude", I resent the language because of them"
3) "Imagine if the resources for Irish were put into Computer coding or Chinese, now that'll get us places"
4) "Why is it considered our national language? Just because it was the language of our ancestors doesn't mean it deserves a place in today's Ireland"
5) "backward...culchie.... catholic"
6) "There's no point trying to save it or promote or protect it, I hate that money is allocated to it in any way shape or form"
7) "There's nothing we can do for it anyway, sad and all as that may be"

Wibbs

Deranged96 wrote: »

Problems people have with Irish:

1) "It was taught horrendously to me at school, now I resent it"
2) "Irish speakers have a "more Irish then thou attitude", I resent the language because of them"
3) "Imagine if the resources for Irish were put into Computer coding or Chinese, now that'll get us places"
4) "Why is it considered our national language? Just because it was the language of our ancestors doesn't mean it deserves a place in today's Ireland"
5) "backward...culchie.... catholic"
6) "There's no point trying to save it or promote or protect it, I hate that money is allocated to it in any way shape or form"
7) "There's nothing we can do for it anyway, sad and all as that may be"

you forgot 8) the vast majority when it comes right down to it, couldn't be arsed about the language either way. That's been the attitude going back many a year, hence the languages rapid contraction.

Though I think it's reached a natural baseline. I don't think it'll drop any further and may grow some in the future.

Madam wrote: »

Not only in Ireland - think of the Basques who fought to relearn and keep their language

Yep the Basques kept it, because they wanted to. No amount of force(and there was lots under Franco, even giving your child a Basque name was verboten). The language should have rebounded in a big way after our independence, instead it continued to dwindle. It seems every time your average Irish person is free to chose they drop the language, including those multitudes that went to other countries. We're pretty unusual in that.

same with the Scots

Ironically the Scots spoke Pictish, a language that died out long ago and largely did so on the back of Irish traders and the church invading the place. Irish became the language of religion and commerce and learning, hence the Scots have Scots Gaelic. Even the name of the country has an Irish origin as Scoti was the Latin word for the Irish as a group.

Don't you think it would be a shame to lose such a link to your identity?

Again that's the problem, for the majority of people on the island it hasn't been a part of their identity for generations. Myself being of Dublin stock going back four generations on both sides means that the last native Irish speaker in my blood was likely early 19th century(and on one side likely before that). The Leinster Irish dialect has been extinct for at least a century. Irish is quite literally a "foreign language" to me and I'd not be alone in that.

That was another issue with its teaching, at least in my day. There was the sniff of "this is your native language so you should be able to speak it quite easily so we'll teach it along those lines".

Shep_Dog

Deranged96 wrote: »

Problems people have with Irish:

1) "It was taught horrendously to me at school, now I resent it"
2) "Irish speakers have a "more Irish then thou attitude", I resent the language because of them"
3) "Imagine if the resources for Irish were put into Computer coding or Chinese, now that'll get us places"
4) "Why is it considered our national language? Just because it was the language of our ancestors doesn't mean it deserves a place in today's Ireland"
5) "backward...culchie.... catholic"
6) "There's no point trying to save it or promote or protect it, I hate that money is allocated to it in any way shape or form"
7) "There's nothing we can do for it anyway, sad and all as that may be"

+"I choose not to speak Irish. It's my choice. Please respect my freedom of choice and stop trying to make me speak Irish."

Deranged96

Shep_Dog wrote: »

+"I choose not to speak Irish. It's my choice. Please respect my freedom of choice and stop trying to make me speak Irish."

don't worry shep, no one's out to torture a cúpla focal out of you

Chloris

Hating that any money is put into it? Ridiculous. You're entitled to your opinion but that's a really crappy attitude about a language which was stolen from us.

Grayson

Deranged96 wrote: »

Problems people have with Irish:

1) "It was taught horrendously to me at school, now I resent it"
2) "Irish speakers have a "more Irish then thou attitude", I resent the language because of them"
3) "Imagine if the resources for Irish were put into Computer coding or Chinese, now that'll get us places"
4) "Why is it considered our national language? Just because it was the language of our ancestors doesn't mean it deserves a place in today's Ireland"
5) "backward...culchie.... catholic"
6) "There's no point trying to save it or promote or protect it, I hate that money is allocated to it in any way shape or form"
7) "There's nothing we can do for it anyway, sad and all as that may be"

You seem to think that people have a grudge against it. It's not like that.

Imagine if 90% of leaving cert maths students had very little ability beyond multiplication. We'd think the maths course was an absolute waste of time. If after 14 years in education you could barely add you'd be at the level of a leaving cert pass student.

The fact is that teaching Irish has been an absolute failure on every possible level.

Plus no-one wants to learn it. No-one needs to either. It's not necessary for work or leisure. If adults have time some might study it, some might study computers, some might learn drawing... The thing is that most don't learn Irish. If an adult decides to learn a language they're more likely to learn a foreign one.

So we can't teach it to children. That's been an absolute failure. Adults don't want to learn it.

Skatedude

Irish needs to be taught in schools. i'm 43 and went to a CBS and we had irish every day for many years, but we were never taught the language. It was always a case of "memorize this for tomorrow" Nothing to do with actually been able to speak or understand it.

Pretty much the same in most schools?

ThinkProgress

Chloris wrote: »

Hating that any money is put into it? Ridiculous. You're entitled to your opinion but that's a really crappy attitude about a language which was stolen from us.

If your car was stolen from you and burnt out, would you recover the vehicle and spend thousands trying fruitlessly to restore it to it's former condition?

The Irish language is a stolen burnt out wreck of a car, waiting to be scrapped.

It might be of some use to somebody, but it's never going to be what it was! (and I don't say that with any vitriol in my heart btw)

Shrap

Wibbs wrote: »

That was another issue with its teaching, at least in my day. There was the sniff of "this is your native language so you should be able to speak it quite easily so we'll teach it along those lines".

That was it, exactly. Now I think back on it, it's hard to believe how we were started with such difficult grammar, age approx. six - all the lists of pronouns and declensions....did they think we were just going to absorb it holistically and start conversing, by virtue of being Irish?

Learning German in secondary, I don't think we touched on those aspects until we had a passable vocabulary geared on getting us around in Germany, from buying a train ticket to asking for a coffee/cake in a shop.

The Irish curriculum has changed somewhat now and is very much more conversation based, but the workbooks are a nightmare for helping children with. There isn't a word of English in them, so in order to help my kids answer questions, we were picking a pertinent word (on the advice of the teacher) and looking through the relevant story again and again to pull out a sentence that looked like a likely answer. Not a one of us understanding the words we were reading. A disaster, from start to finish.

Deranged96 wrote: »

don't worry shep, no one's out to torture a cúpla focal out of you

Ah, but they are. That's the entire problem. All school kids who don't take to the language are tormented by having to continue "learning" it to LC level.

Shrap

Wibbs wrote: »

Again that's the problem, for the majority of people on the island it hasn't been a part of their identity for generations. Myself being of Dublin stock going back four generations on both sides means that the last native Irish speaker in my blood was likely early 19th century(and on one side likely before that). The Leinster Irish dialect has been extinct for at least a century. Irish is quite literally a "foreign language" to me and I'd not be alone in that.

Also, no you are certainly not alone in that. Both sides of my paternal family are from inside the Pale going back however far we can look. I'd say that as my family originates from the farmlands to the North of Dublin, and ended up as traders/grocers inside Dublin, our family hasn't necessarily had Irish since the 1400's at the latest.

Shep_Dog

Chloris wrote: »

Hating that any money is put into it? Ridiculous. You're entitled to your opinion but that's a really crappy attitude about a language which was stolen from us.

Nobody stole the Irish language from us. We gave it up because we found English provided better social and economic opportunities.

It is not the Irish language that has failed but the entire Irish way of life failed hundreds of years ago as it could not compete with the more virulent British culture. It's a cultural case of 'survival of the fittest'. We adapted and survived.

There's nothing wrong with putting a bit of money into an interesting vestigial language, especially if it entertains the tourists, but making the whole country speak Irish to satisfy the cultural vanity of some enthusiasts is going too far.

Aineoil

Shrap wrote: »

we were picking a pertinent word (on the advice of the teacher) and looking through the relevant story again and again to pull out a sentence that looked like a likely answer. Not a one of us understanding the words we were reading. A disaster, from start to finish.

That's tough for you and your child. Homework can bring a household to a

standstill. PM me if you ever have a problem with Irish homework and I will gladly

help you out.

ThinkProgress

Shep_Dog wrote: »

Nobody stole the Irish language from us. We gave it up because we found English provided better social and economic opportunities.

It is not the Irish language that has failed but the entire Irish way of life failed hundreds of years ago as it could not compete with the more virulent British culture. It's a cultural case of 'survival of the fittest'. We adapted and survived.

There's nothing wrong with putting a bit of money into an interesting vestigial language, especially if it entertains the tourists, but making the whole country speak Irish to satisfy the cultural vanity of some enthusiasts is going too far.

^^100% agree with this!

I'd also add that, as a nation some people really need to take the chip off their shoulder with regard to the english language and join the rest of us in the 21st century.

Some people view english as a foreign language, given to us by our former colonial masters.

But this is no longer the case. We have adopted english as our language, and we actually speak it quite differently to any other country!

America also speaks english, and they bully Britain at any opportunity they get. So it's no longer seen as the language of our former oppressors!

It's a worldwide language - owned by the world.

Shrap

Aineoil wrote: »

That's tough for you and your child. Homework can bring a household to a

standstill. PM me if you ever have a problem with Irish homework and I will gladly

help you out.

That's very kind of you, thanks, but it's too late in the day - eldest just about to sit LC and has dropped Irish, youngest already doing (meaningless, for college places) foundation level in 1st year. They made an exception for him as I told them I wasn't going to be doing another 6 years of Irish homework for him.

At primary level, I used to send notes back to school sometimes in the homework notebook saying "Very sorry my Irish homework not completed but it was too hard for me, signed *Mum*".

Un Croissant

ThinkProgress wrote: »

^^100% agree with this!

I'd also add that, as a nation some people really need to take the chip off their shoulder with regard to the english language and join the rest of us in the 21st century.

Some people view english as a foreign language, given to us by our former colonial masters.

But this is no longer the case. We have adopted english as our language, and we actually speak it quite differently to any other country!

America also speaks english, and they bully Britain at any opportunity they get. So it's no longer seen as the language of our former oppressors!

It's a worldwide language - owned by the world.

My OH is Korean, she came here as an English student. I often joke that what I teach her isn't English and won't help her pass any exams

Aineoil

ThinkProgress wrote: »

I'd also add that, as a nation some people really need to take the chip off their shoulder with regard to the english language and join the rest of us in the 21st century.

Shouldn't some people take the chip off their shoulder with regards to the Irish language?

compo1

Banjoxed wrote: »

Think the problems that the Irish language have are too deep seated for it to matter a damn who the minister is. Generations of us under all governments were taught the language badly and left school with no love for what was an obligation.

That's about it. Many left school having been "taught" Irish by teachers who shouldn't have been teaching the language and probably shouldn't have been teaching at all. A suggestion recently was that ALL schoolkids in their first three years do everything "as Gaeilge". Of course, this also needs teachers who actually love what they're doing. They're around alright, but the others need to be weeded out.

ThinkProgress

Aineoil wrote: »

Shouldn't some people take the chip off their shoulder with regards to the Irish language?

If that's your opinion, you're entitled to it.

But I don't see many people hating on the Irish language. Just many who are apathetic to it's use as it's the cultural elephant in the room that nobody in this country has the b*lls to sort out.

tipparetops

mickstupp wrote: »

I failed Irish at pass level. Overall, I didn't get enough points in my Leaving Cert to get into any university course in the country at that time. When I was 30, I went to university, without all those stupid arbitrary restrictions that are imposed until the age of 23. Now I'm doing a PhD. The university, department, and my supervisor all think I'm capable of this.

You would disagree with them wholeheartedly, it seems, and consider me unfit for higher level study simply because I couldn't handle Ordinary level Irish.

Foundation level Irish does hold students back, literally, in an actual real world way. That's because many courses in Irish universities have Ordinary level Irish as an entrance requirement for Irish citizens under the age of 23, despite the fact that almost every one of those courses has no Irish language component whatsoever.

Your opinion is plainly not reflecting reality.

Being honest, if you can reach phd level, Irish should not be an issue for you.
I am trying to show it is not about intelligence, I have already posted that earlier, it is about attitude not aptitude.
You just have to want to learn it. Its the same with any subject.

My earlier post joshing another poster regarding Irish and University, was due to that posters attitude.
I can understand someone who cannot grasp the language, but i will never understand someone who won't even try. When i say try, I mean really try.

Aineoil

Shrap wrote: »

That's very kind of you, thanks, but it's too late in the day - eldest just about to sit LC and has dropped Irish, youngest already doing (meaningless, for college places) foundation level in 1st year. They made an exception for him as I told them I wasn't going to be doing another 6 years of Irish homework for him.

At primary level, I used to send notes back to school sometimes in the homework notebook saying "Very sorry my Irish homework not completed but it was too hard for me, signed *Mum*".

So sorry we didn't meet earlier in our children's lives.

I completely understand your antipathy towards the language. If you look at my

earlier posts you'll see that I am very fluent in Irish and my husband is a native

speaker. Our son can't string a sentence together in Irish.

Why?

We never saw Irish as being that important and we didn't want a bilingual family situation.

We both love the language but we never felt it was that important that he
spoke it. It was more important that he enjoyed school at primary level and chose the subjects he liked in secondary. I entertained sending him to a Gaelscoil but after a visit decided not to. Chose Educate Together.

Many people have posted about the teaching of Irish, reflecting on bygone days. It's not like that today. Teaching Irish today is about modelling and conversation. It's very interactive - ipads etc. Bua na Cainte is an excellent program.

Bottom line is that to promote Irish you have to create a need.

There's no need to learn Irish.

But I still want to. It's nice to have.

Shep_Dog

tipparetops wrote: »

I can understand someone who cannot grasp the language, but i will never understand someone who won't even try. When i say try, I mean really try.

Why not? Why can't people just choose which language they would like to learn?

Shrap

tipparetops wrote: »

i will never understand someone who won't even try. When i say try, I mean really try.

Yeah, cos nine years of attempting to learn Irish (and then giving up age 15) to the best of my ability clearly ain't enough trying for you .... :rolleyes:

ThinkProgress

tipparetops wrote: »

My earlier post joshing another poster regarding Irish and University, was due to that posters attitude.
I can understand someone who cannot grasp the language, but i will never understand someone who won't even try. When i say try, I mean really try.

You started jeering another poster because you were trying to steer this discussion away from the real issues. You failed.

Many have attempted to explain the reasons why Irish has become so unpopular, but you just ignore their points in favor of your one dimensional view point. Just try harder people!

tipparetops

Shep_Dog wrote: »

Why not? Why can't people just choose which language they would like to learn?

i would not mind if that were the case, but it is not.

Shrap

Aineoil wrote: »

So sorry we didn't meet earlier in our children's lives.

I completely understand your antipathy towards the language. If you look at my

earlier posts you'll see that I am very fluent in Irish and my husband is a native

speaker. Our son can't string a sentence together in Irish.

Why?

We never saw Irish as being that important and we didn't want a bilingual family situation.

We both love the language but we never felt it was that important that he
spoke it. It was more important that he enjoyed school at primary level and chose the subjects he liked in secondary. I entertained sending him to a Gaelscoil but after a visit decided not to. Chose Educate Together.

Many people have posted about the teaching of Irish, reflecting on bygone days. It's not like that today. Teaching Irish today is about modelling and conversation. It's very interactive - ipads etc. Bua na Cainte is an excellent program.

Bottom line is that to promote Irish you have to create a need.

There's no need to learn Irish.

But I still want to. It's nice to have.

Nicely said. And in my opinion, good choice on the Educate Together school! I wish we had one locally, but in fairness the NS was brilliant despite not being able to be as inclusive as they'd like to be. Irish in primary was great for my kids (apart from the language barrier over the homework books) but it all went south in secondary when they were expected to have the basics that they just hadn't grasped in primary.

I appreciate your pragmatism, thanks.

tipparetops

ThinkProgress wrote: »

You started jeering another poster because you were trying to steer this discussion away from the real issues. You failed.

Many have attempted to explain the reasons why Irish has become so unpopular, but you just ignore their points in favor of your one dimensional view point. Just try harder people!

It is possible to teach old dogs new tricks.
May you should try barking at yourself.:pac:

Aineoil

ThinkProgress wrote: »

If that's your opinion, you're entitled to it.

But I don't see many people hating on the Irish language. Just many who are apathetic to it's use as it's the cultural elephant in the room that nobody in this country has the b*lls to sort out.

How do you want it sorted?

Aineoil

Shrap wrote: »

Nicely said. And in my opinion, good choice on the Educate Together school! I wish we had one locally, but in fairness the NS was brilliant despite not being able to be as inclusive as they'd like to be. Irish in primary was great for my kids (apart from the language barrier over the homework books) but it all went south in secondary when they were expected to have the basics that they just hadn't grasped in primary.

I appreciate your pragmatism, thanks.

Thank you for the reply. Most schools these days follow the Educate Together model, with the exception of communion and confirmation and the hours spent on preparation for both.

I do think secondary schools have to rethink how they teach Irish.

Aineoil

I am certainly re-railing this thread but have you any idea ideas about the amount

of the school day is wasted on communion and confirmation preparation?

Shep_Dog

tipparetops wrote: »

i would not mind if that were the case, but it is not.

So you cannot understand why people don't succeed in learning a language when the only motivation is compulsion.

You don't understand human nature.

whisky_galore

tipparetops wrote: »

You just have to want to learn it. Its the same with any subject.

I can understand someone who cannot grasp the language, but i will never understand someone who won't even try. When i say try, I mean really try.

Hard as is for Irish language zealots to grasp, there is a significant segment of the Irish population who fail to be enthused by the language and don't give a rat's ass about it and you can't change that. They'll just go through the motions to learn it parrot-fashion and drop it the minute they finish the exams and leave school, means to an end.
You can't make people 'like' what you like.

tipparetops

Shep_Dog wrote: »

So you cannot understand why people don't succeed in learning a language when the only motivation is compulsion.

You don't understand human nature.

No you took me up wrong - you stated people should choose what language they wished to study.
My reply is ireland is not known for its linguistics.

mickstupp

tipparetops wrote: »

Being honest, if you can reach phd level, Irish should not be an issue for you.
I am trying to show it is not about intelligence, I have already posted that earlier, it is about attitude not aptitude.
You just have to want to learn it. Its the same with any subject.

My earlier post joshing another poster regarding Irish and University, was due to that posters attitude.
I can understand someone who cannot grasp the language, but i will never understand someone who won't even try. When i say try, I mean really try.

Do you understand that what you've said is actually pretty insulting? You have no idea how much I or anyone else tried to learn the language, but you're assuming it's our fault that we couldn't learn the language. Nothing to do with the crappy text books, useless teachers, complete aversion to teaching proper grammatical concepts. No. Our fault, for not trying.

Anyone else have to do that exercise where you memorised the steps of getting up in the morning, getting dressed, making tea and toast, and brushing your teeth? Did anyone ever have the grammar explained to them? Was there ever a point to that exercise? Because it was never explained to me. Nor was anything else in Irish.

But even though the structure of the language was never explained to me... it's my fault for not trying hard enough. I guess if I clenched my jaw a little harder my brain might have been able to magically glean the rules of Irish grammar from the junk I was being forced to learn off by heart for no good reason. I should have had a mystical natural ability to absorb it. Clearly. I mean it's our native tongue right? Should've just opened my soul to the genetic memory of Irish and let it flow into me. But I didn't want it hard enough.

In any case... you made the point that a person who couldn't handle Ordinary Irish had no place at third level. That point was rubbish. And whether a person can reach PhD level in their chosen subject has zero to do with an ability or aptitude, or for you an attitude, fit for learning Irish.

Reiver

tipparetops wrote: »

No you took me up wrong - you stated people should choose what language they wished to study.
My reply is ireland is not known for its linguistics.

In fairness, he's not much wrong. Us and the Brits are the worst in Europe with languages.

tipparetops

mickstupp wrote: »

Do you understand that what you've said is actually pretty insulting? You have no idea how much I or anyone else tried to learn the language, but you're assuming it's our fault that we couldn't learn the language. Nothing to do with the crappy text books, useless teachers, complete aversion to teaching proper grammatical concepts. No. Our fault, for not trying.

Anyone else have to do that exercise where you memorised the steps of getting up in the morning, getting dressed, making tea and toast, and brushing your teeth? Did anyone ever have the grammar explained to them? Was there ever a point to that exercise? Because it was never explained to me. Nor was anything else in Irish.

But even though the structure of the language was never explained to me... it's my fault for not trying hard enough. I guess if I clenched my jaw a little harder my brain might have been able to magically glean the rules of Irish grammar from the junk I was being forced to learn off by heart for no good reason. I should have had a mystical natural ability to absorb it. Clearly. I mean it's our native tongue right? Should've just opened my soul to the genetic memory of Irish and let it flow into me. But I didn't want it hard enough.

You should read all the posts. I was talking about the present, there is nothing stopping you now from learning it. Try duolingo.com to get you started. Teach yourself. You just need the right attitude.

mickstupp

tipparetops wrote: »

You should read all the posts. I was talking about the present, there is nothing stopping you now from learning it. Try duolingo.com to get you started. Teach yourself. You just need the right attitude.

Do you or do you not understand the problem with the part I've bolded?

Why do you believe an ability to learn Irish is about attitude?

tipparetops

mickstupp wrote: »

Do you or do you not understand the problem with the part I've bolded?

Why do you believe an ability to learn Irish is about attitude?

I believe the key to learn any subject is attitude.