Are you willing to learn Irish to keep the language alive

Baggy Trousers

I have to agree with some earlier posts, Irish does not sound great. It sounds very harsh. Even the sexy Tg4 weather girls can't pull it off

UCDVet

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

Because you said this "To recap: you have no right to take freedom of choice and freedom of expession away from people".

The government takes away peoples right to freedom of choice and expression by introducing laws.Banning the sale of drugs is one of the ways they do it and people don't have an issue with it.

I'm a people. And I have an issue with it.

The question really should read, "Are you willing to speak Irish to keep the language alive?" learning it is useless unless you use it. I learnt Irish a few years ago, but have already forgotten a lot of it as I haven't used it enough.

Reiver

Just out of curiosity, what variant of Irish are people learning? It seems to be more in vogue these days to pick a dialect closer to where you're from. I've been working through the Myles Dillon and Donncha Ó Cróinín book even though it's tough enough going. It seems to focus mostly on Munster Irish though I've a copy of Ó Siadhail book as well for some of the Connacht stuff.

The older books are good but I'll admit the straight forward grammar translation wrecks my head at times. What does everyone else use to learn? I see Duolingo is popular.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

Because you said this "To recap: you have no right to take freedom of choice and freedom of expession away from people".

The government takes away peoples right to freedom of choice and expression by introducing laws.Banning the sale of drugs is one of the ways they do it and people don't have an issue with it.

I never said the government - I said you. The government is appointed to passes laws deemed nessecary to personal and national safety; you want this brought in for no other reason than a personal vanity project.

zzfh

Bayberry wrote: »

why would you want to go out on the toilet?

lol i have no idea,but i do know that's what i uesd to say all through national school...and no one corrected me lol

An Ciarraioch

Shep_Dog wrote: »

Conradh na Gaelge exists to replace English with Irish as the common tongue of Ireland.

Wrong, it exists to protect the legal status of the language and encourage newcomers to speak it without hang-ups - they organise most of the "Ciorcal Comhrá" meetings across the country.

Lyaiera

If it wasn't a hassle to learn it I would. If there was somewhere nearby, that was affordable and had decent teaching methods I'd give it a go.

Dirty Dingus McGee

UCDVet wrote: »

I'm a people. And I have an issue with it.

The vast majority of people have no objection to the government restricting their freedom by having laws in place.

Shep_Dog

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Wrong, it exists to protect the legal status of the language and encourage newcomers to speak it without hang-ups -

Go read the first sentence of Conradh's constitution.

Arya_72

I didn't have to learn it.. it is my first language..it comes naturally.. I think people get up in arms about learning it because they have to learn it. The best way to learn it, is to be in a natural environment where it is spoken.. It's not about reading it out of a book. It is about feeling it. Understanding it.. Experiencing the traditions that comes with it, and the sayings that are used to express yourself..

Dirty Dingus McGee

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I never said the government - I said you. The government is appointed to passes laws deemed nessecary to personal and national safety; you want this brought in for no other reason than a personal vanity project.

I don't really care if the language is not spoken again so I don't have any issue with nothing being done but I believe that it would be the only way to revive the language is if the government brought in laws to deal with the issue.

BonsaiKitten

Grayson wrote: »

Estonian kids are learning programming in school. Java might be a more useful language than Irish.

In many ways we're already behind other countries. Our Primary teachers all have to learn Irish and Religion. Most have very little STEM knowledge.

To be fair, most teachers aren't fluent in Irish either. Where would we get the people to teach in Irish.

Think of the between 1 and 1 1/2 hours spent teaching those Religion and Irish everyday already.

To recover Irish we do need to start from scratch and ditch the way it's been taught already but I have no idea if it's even possible to do that.

The way Irish is taught in primary schools has changed since most posters here were in school.

As for teaching programming, sure - and when schools aren't reduced to gathering tesco tokens to buy computers, or fundraise for sports equipment, or teachers don't have to buy their own classroom equipment, it might be possible for that to happen. As it is the funding isn't there.

Iwasfrozen

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Wrong, it exists to protect the legal status of the language and encourage newcomers to speak it without hang-ups - they organise most of the "Ciorcal Comhrá" meetings across the country.

Wrong, from the organization's own website it's mission statement is to "To reinstate Irish as the common language of Ireland."

Source: https://cnag.ie/en/info/conradh-na-gaeilge/what-does-conradh-na-gaeilge-do.html

Seemingly the democratic wish of the Irish people to speak English does not factor into CnaG's goal. :rolleyes:

Iwasfrozen

BonsaiKitten wrote: »

The way Irish is taught in primary schools has changed since most posters here were in school.

As for teaching programming, sure - and when schools aren't reduced to gathering tesco tokens to buy computers, or fundraise for sports equipment, or teachers don't have to buy their own classroom equipment, it might be possible for that to happen. As it is the funding isn't there.

Then we should scrap Foras na Gaeilge and reinvest the funds to make it possible.

the_syco

The language has died a long time ago. What is taught in schools is used to read stories and poems, but useless to speak with.

Bayberry

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Wrong, from the organization's own website it's mission statement is to "To reinstate Irish as the common language of Ireland."

Source: https://cnag.ie/en/info/conradh-na-gaeilge/what-does-conradh-na-gaeilge-do.html

Seemingly the democratic wish of the Irish people to speak English does not factor into CnaG's goal. :rolleyes:

Not at all - Conradh tries to make it possible for people to learn Irish, and to speak it easily and naturally. When a majority of people can do so, and use it in their everyday life, it will be the common language of Ireland again,and Conradh will have achieved it's ends, entirely democratically.

(and pigs will fly, etc, but there's nothing undemocratic in that aim).

Bayberry

Baggy Trousers wrote: »

I have to agree with some earlier posts, Irish does not sound great. It sounds very harsh. Even the sexy Tg4 weather girls can't pull it off

Some accents in Irish can be a bit hard on the ear, but the same is true of English. Donegal Irish sounds very different from Muster Irish.

Context makes a difference too - for example these don't sound harsh to me:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hz63M3v11nE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1A6__HssHW8

JanaMay

I wish I used it more than I do, and I'm actively trying to teach at least a little to my children. We don't live in Ireland and my parents, who live there, don't speak it.

I enjoyed learning it at school (I could have had an exemption but chose to do it). What's clear though, from the majority of posters here and from talking to other Irish people of all ages, is that it's taught in a way that does not and will not appeal to the majority of pupils. Rather than abandon it altogether, the DoE has to find a way to make children want to know it. I don't know what guidelines should be put in place but it's clear that something has to change.

Having said that, I also believe that how English is taught should change too. Pupils need to understand how languages are constructed ie basic linguistic terms, a lot less emphasis on rote learning and a lot more on understanding what a language can teach us about a culture. Modern languages are taught using a more communicative method and I think Irish should be too.

Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

I don't really care if the language is not spoken again so I don't have any issue with nothing being done but I believe that it would be the only way to revive the language is if the government brought in laws to deal with the issue.

It's not the only way, nor will it even work. And there is no 'issue'.

Shep_Dog

Bayberry wrote: »

When a majority of people can do so, and use it in their everyday life, it will be the common language of Ireland again,and Conradh will have achieved it's ends, entirely democratically.

(and pigs will fly, etc, but there's nothing undemocratic in that aim).

So they'd be OK with making Irish an optional subject at school?

Iwasfrozen

Bayberry wrote: »

Not at all - Conradh tries to make it possible for people to learn Irish, and to speak it easily and naturally. When a majority of people can do so, and use it in their everyday life, it will be the common language of Ireland again,and Conradh will have achieved it's ends, entirely democratically.

(and pigs will fly, etc, but there's nothing undemocratic in that aim).

The poster claimed it was not CnaG's aim to make Irish the "common tongue of Ireland" He was obviously wrong about that.

But what you're saying (and this is different to what the other poster was saying) is that if Irish people could speak Irish (and again pigs will fly etc.) that they would speak Irish as their common tongue. Which begs the question why would a country comprised of native English speakers suddenly start speaking another language if they weren't forced?

An Ciarraioch

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The poster claimed it was not CnaG's aim to make Irish the "common tongue of Ireland" He was obviously wrong about that.

But what you're saying (and this is different to what the other poster was saying) is that if Irish people could speak Irish (and again pigs will fly etc.) that they would speak Irish as their common tongue. Which begs the question why would a country comprised of native English speakers suddenly start speaking another language if they weren't forced?

The first post claimed that Conradh wanted English replaced by Irish, but "common tongue" would just mean universally spoken.

inocybe

BonsaiKitten wrote: »

The way Irish is taught in primary schools has changed since most posters here were in school.

Not my experience, watching my son have a carbon copy experience of mine at school. Irish being compulsary in school is the single factor that is killing it.

Iwasfrozen

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

The first post claimed that Conradh wanted English replaced by Irish, but "common tongue" would just mean universally spoken.

They do. See post #166

Shep_Dog

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

The first post claimed that Conradh wanted English replaced by Irish, but "common tongue" would just mean universally spoken.

That's not what it says in their constitution. Ever look at their website?

Organisation's Mission Statement
To reinstate Irish as the common language of Ireland.

Iwasfrozen

JanaMay wrote: »

Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam.

Absolute nonsense. That implies Brazil the home of samba has no soul.

Will people parrot any nonsense if the quote originates from a historic figure?

Reiver

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Absolute nonsense. That implies Brazil has no soul.

Will people parrot any nonsense if the quote originates from a historic figure?

Plenty of indigenous languages in Brazil that are spoken.

Iwasfrozen

Reiver wrote: »

Plenty of indigenous languages in Brazil that are spoken.

How much is spoken in Rio?

Reiver

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

How much is spoken in Rio?

Dunno lad, never got further south than Manaus.

Iwasfrozen

Reiver wrote: »

Dunno lad, never got further south than Manaus.

Negligible.

It displays huge ignorance of foreign culture to say countries without a language have no soul and implies the speaker is an uneducated isolationist little Irelander.

/end rant

Reiver

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Negligible.

It displays huge ignorance of foreign culture to say countries without a language have no soul and implies the speaker is an uneducated little Irelander.

/end rant

Sorry I forgot the Portuguese colonial regime was the illuminating light of civilisation which brought peace and prosperity to the people of South America.

It displays huge ignorance of history to make such sweeping generalisations and implies the speaker is an uneducated colonial nostalgic.

/end rant.

Iwasfrozen

Reiver wrote: »

Sorry I forgot the Portuguese colonial regime was the illuminating light of civilisation which brought peace and prosperity to the people of South America.

It displays huge ignorance of history to make such sweeping generalisations and implies the speaker is an uneducated colonial nostalgic.

/end rant.

It implies an inability to follow a logical train of thought when a person invents an argument and incorrectly attributes that argument to another person.

/end rant.

NIMAN

We need a referendum on the Irish language!

Reiver

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

It implies an inability to follow a logical train of thought when a person invents an argument and incorrectly attributes that argument to another person.

/end rant.

Whatever. It's Sunday, let peace be on earth. Let's not get off topic.

BonsaiKitten

Lyaiera wrote: »

If it wasn't a hassle to learn it I would. If there was somewhere nearby, that was affordable and had decent teaching methods I'd give it a go.

There are Irish courses on duolingo afaik.

El Horseboxo

I'm a Latino black American that spent a few years in Ireland and went balls to the wall learning gaeilge because I was so interested in the culture. I self learned to a competent enough level where I could speak and understood maybe 90% of conversations. No excuse for natives if the dedication is there.

keith16

You can make the language optional all you want. Fundamentally, if the way the language is taught remains in the stone age, then very few would be taking up that option. A shame.

jackofalltrades

El Horseboxo wrote: »

I'm a Latino black American that spent a few years in Ireland and went balls to the wall learning gaeilge because I was so interested in the culture. I self learned to a competent enough level where I could speak and understood maybe 90% of conversations. No excuse for natives if the dedication is there.

Come back to us after you've been forced to learn it for 12/13 years, then you can pass judgement on us "natives".

jackofalltrades

jackofalltrades wrote: »

Come back to us after you've been forced to learn it for 12/13 years, then you can pass judgement on us "natives".

You're taught Irish, it's up to you as an individual whether to use it or not, don't blame the "system".

Alibaba

NIMAN wrote: »

We need a referendum on the Irish language!

Just hope the Question isn't in Irish ... 😊😉

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

jackofalltrades wrote: »

Come back to us after you've been forced to learn it for 12/13 years, then you can pass judgement on us "natives".

In fiarness, he has a point: if the dedication is there. It clearly isn't.

But that said part of the reason it's not is because, again it's a school subject. It's not supposed to be liked.

Teachers just teach what's needed to pass exams - they don;t teach enjoyment or passion. It's not seen as their remit. And the reason for that as I just said in the other thread, is because they're trainined to pass on knowledge and information, not engagethe kids their teaching.

So we go full circle. The passion and dedication is not there. Have a look att he poll results if you need further evidence.

Deleted User wrote: »

You're taught Irish, it's up to you as an individual whether to use it or not, don't blame the "system".

Then why does the system not encourage people to use it?

Too many people simply aren't bothered to learn it to keep it progressing. Enough to keep it alive, but that's about it. And based on the fact the the system is content with that and promotes this sceraio, I'd argue that yes - the problem is the system.

It's arrogant to blame people for making a choice you don't agree with.

jackofalltrades

Deleted User wrote: »

You're taught Irish, it's up to you as an individual whether to use it or not, don't blame the "system".

Don't strain your neck talking down from your high horse.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

But that said part of the reason it's not is because, again it's a school subject. It's not supposed to be liked.

Teachers just teach what's needed to pass exams - they don;t teach enjoyment or passion.

I'd plenty of teachers who were passionate about the subjects they taught.
It was even the basis on one occasion for picking subjects in secondary school.

Too many people simply aren't bothered to learn it to keep it progressing. Enough to keep it alive, but that's about it.

That's pretty much a spot on assessment.
No generation wants to be the one that let the Irish language die.
We continue to force it down people's throats based on this idea, just doing enough to keep it alive.
This carries over into how it's taught.

El Horseboxo

jackofalltrades wrote: »

Come back to us after you've been forced to learn it for 12/13 years, then you can pass judgement on us "natives".

I don't get your point. I learned enough to understand most conversations, news broadcasts and read articles in a few years. If I had of been forced to learn it for 13 years and I had the interest in it. I'm pretty sure I could call myself fluent at this stage in lieu of advanced conversational.

My point was, if you have an interest in learning something. You will learn it.

jackofalltrades

El Horseboxo wrote: »

I don't get your point. I learned enough to understand most conversations, news broadcasts and read articles in a few years. If I had of been forced to learn it for 13 years and I had the interest in it. I'm pretty sure I could call myself fluent at this stage in lieu of advanced conversational.

My point was, if you have an interest in learning something. You will learn it.

I felt your post was being judgemental of people who grew up learning Irish in this country.
Where even if you were dedicated, the terrible way in which it was taught and the fact that it's mandatory but a lot of people off the language for life.

Just have nicer Irish teachers. Every one i had were arrogant pricks. Not one nice one.

Kiwi in IE

If I had moved here and you all spoke Irish, I would have had to learn it. Because you all speak English, I have no need to learn Irish. If I was going to learn another language properly, no offence, but Irish would not be high on the agenda. I would prefer to learn something that would benefit me when I visit the country of that language. For example, I need French to be able to function properly in France, so I would rather learn French, because I can already function properly in Ireland.

JanaMay

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Negligible.

It displays huge ignorance of foreign culture to say countries without a language have no soul and implies the speaker is an uneducated isolationist little Irelander.

/end rant

I think the expression I quoted means that a language is one of the (many) things that can unite and identify a population. Obviously many nations exist that don't have one single indigenous language, spoken by all of the populace (usually because of historical/colonial/mass media reasons).

However, in my opinion, a common language, and not one that is imposed from outside, is something that can help bond a nation and forge a common identity. And I wouldn't like to see our Irish language lost without doing our utmost to keep it alive. And that might involve changing how it it is taught, given that it seems to be so unpalatable to so many.

Also lol at being called an 'uneducated isolationist little Irelander'! Love it, it's a first for me!

_Kaiser_

Nope, was spared having to learn it in school (lived abroad for a few years when I was 9 and got an exemption on our return) and no intention to start learning it now.

It is and has been effectively a dead language for decades, surviving only on the goodwill of the taxpayer (who are forced to pump a ridiculous amount of money into it) and a few Gaeltact areas (all of whom speak and use fluent English too of course), but were it not for that it would have died off years ago.

The only reasons I ever see for maintaining it are:
- it's "our" heritage/culture/other such parochial nonsense
- isn't it handy when on holiday abroad and you want to have a private conversation (this assumes of course there are many more fluent Irish speakers in holiday than at home I guess)
- you must be "less Irish" or a "West Brit" if you don't value it

None of which of course offer any real reason why we should devote hours and hours of classroom time to it every week, or what actual benefit it is in a country that speaks English natively and as it's first language in virtually all cases anyway!

Meanwhile of course, kids in other countries are already fluent in at least 2 modern European languages (including English) at primary level and then end up working here in the multinationals we're so fond of / reliant on for investment and jobs... Then we wonder why Irish people can't get jobs in these places.

Irish, like Religion, belongs in the home or dedicated after school classes. I wonder how many of the pro-Irish lobby would be so keen if they had to fund it themselves rather than expecting every parent and taxpayer to pay for their lifestyle /cultural hobby horse.

In a country with limited resources and an increasingly diverse population, it's time to get it out of schools and devote that time to far more useful pursuits.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

It's arrogant to blame people for making a choice you don't agree with.

It's an observation rather than a criticism, if people wanted to save the language, they would, but clearly, they don't.