Coming home? Are you thinking about it?

Wompa1

The Corinthian wrote: »

Not sure that's so attractive as it used to be. Bequeathing a life of double taxation to your children is not exactly a huge advantage, just on the chance that they'll want to live in the US and not one of the other 195 countries in the World.

There is no double taxation unless they want to live somewhere like Abu Dhabi due to no tax treaty in place with them but technically, I believe that's the case for Ireland too.

You might be confused between paying tax and filing a tax return. Ireland and the US have a tax treaty. I can work and live in one and only pay tax to one. But I need to file a tax return in the US to state that I'm not earning there.

The US is a f**ked up harsh environment to live in BUT it's a beacon for innovation still and you can a much larger slice of the pie than in the likes of Ireland. I just wouldn't want to live here full time for the rest of my life. I'd like for my kids to be able to come here if they want to.

Also, my fiance family is here. It would be good to have the option to bring them back for a few months at a time when older

The Corinthian

Wompa1 wrote: »

You might be confused between paying tax and filing a tax return. Ireland and the US have a tax treaty. I can work and live in one and only pay tax to one. But I need to file a tax return in the US to state that I'm not earning there.

Yes, that was it. Problem is that, other than countries that don't have tax treaties with the US, it's been tighened up in recent years to the point that everyone has to go through a lot of red tape to fulfill their obligations with the American IRS, even if unemployed. And in 20 years time, when it begins to become an issue for one's kids, who knows...

The US is a f**ked up harsh environment to live in BUT it's a beacon for innovation still and you can a much larger slice of the pie than in the likes of Ireland.

At present, yes, but as I said in 20 years time, when it begins to become an issue for one's kids, who knows...

BailMeOut

Suaimhneach A ha! Someone who has left america for Ireland! Any tips / thoughts / advice / do & donts? Dreading figuring out taxes!

We basically followed your advice. Decision has taken months (hence this thread and you're right, definitely the hardest part), have an approximate date, and we're sticking to it (despite career temptations to stay!).

What made you decide to leave, and have you been home long?

We used to ask ourselves are we going to live in USA forever and the answer was always no. After that it is a question of where we will live and when we will move. After that it's simply decided by our kids and their school milestones.

Our kids are obviously USA citizens so we too naturalized before coming back which has it's pros and cons. The big con is that you end up having to do USA taxes and submissions to US treasury for the rest of your life which is a huge pain. The big pro is that we can work as a normal '1099' employee for USA companies while living in Ireland. While this was not the original plan once we decided to move a few of my US contacts asked me to do contract work for them which I have been doing for last 5 years.

We moved back in 2010 and we lived away for nearly 20 years.

Wompa1 Out of interest. Did you plan that you'd have the kids you want to have before leaving the US? So you had two in quick succession so you could move back to Ireland with them having their US citizenship?

Any hassle getting the kids over to Ireland? What did you have to do to bring them there? I'm thinking of a similar strategy. I'd like to have my kids in the US and then move to Ireland with a bit of a nest egg built. My wife is American\Thai. My kids some day will be American. I'm hoping since they are my family, it'll be easy enough to get them visa and then eventually naturalized as citizens.

We did not think about this at all when we had our kids. We were just living our happy lives in USA, got married, had kids and once the kids were starting school in USA you start to think longer term and where we would settle down properly.

No hassle with kids coming back and they settled in just fine. Our oldest went into 1st class and within days they were all assimilated as if they always lived here. If you are Irish then I cannot see why your kids and wife would not have any issues living here. When you move back you have to do the 'habitual residency' application to demonstrate you plan to live and work here and once that is done your kids get PPS numbers so can attend school like anyone else.

If you do move back get your private Irish health insurance from day one of arriving as much of your coverage will not start for period of time after that. I forget how long but you will want to get that clock ticking as quickly as possible.

The worst part of the move for my wife was getting an Irish driving license. I already had one but the new rules meant she had to do driving lessons and do the test again. There is no way around this as you cannot drive with you USA license after 12 months.

Good luck and PM me if you need any help.

Old Perry

Just as ye mentioned insurance in ireland, if one were to have left ireland before all these new rules came in and move back after turning 35, would their insurance suffer the fines or however they call it, premium being loaded?

BailMeOut

Old Perry wrote: »

Just as ye mentioned insurance in ireland, if one were to have left ireland before all these new rules came in and move back after turning 35, would their insurance suffer the fines or however they call it, premium being loaded?

no. Returning emigrants are excluded from these new rules.

Riverireland

To anyone thinking of coming home think twice. News of Ireland recovery are being greatly exaggerated.

BailMeOut

Riverireland wrote: »

To anyone thinking of coming home think twice. News of Ireland recovery are being greatly exaggerated.

how is that helpful.

To anyone thinking of coming home one big downside is that this country has plenty of people like RiverIreland who just love putting this country down. Ireland is and remains a great place to live and bring up a family. Source - me and my family.

The Corinthian

BailMeOut wrote: »

To anyone thinking of coming home one big downside is that this country has plenty of people like RiverIreland who just love putting this country down. Ireland is and remains a great place to live and bring up a family. Source - me and my family.

I don't think he suggested it is not a great place to live and bring up a family, only that news of an economic recovery has been greatly exaggerated.

Or maybe Ireland's still a great place to live and bring up a family on social welfare if the economy is not a concern?

iusedtoknow

Riverireland wrote: »

To anyone thinking of coming home think twice. News of Ireland recovery are being greatly exaggerated.

well a lot of my friends who have already gone "home" would beg to differ. They work in IT , an industry which weathered the storms pretty well and is now flourishing again - if a little more constrained than it was in 2006.

For builders etc, there isn't a boom - but people will soon forget the idiocy that led to the crash and there will be estates of new builds before you know it, and the brickies can come back and rake it all in again.

magicmushroom

I'm English, I've been living in Ireland now for 7 years.

I'm not too far from home so it's never been an issue for me to be away.
However the past year hasn't been so great and I've had a few things happen that have made me want to be with my family.

So I'm moving back at the beginning of October - hopefully I will be able to find work pretty quickly, but to be honest it's the least of my worries. Once I'm back with my family, the rest can fall into place in time.

Being away from them is poo!

Old Perry

magicmushroom wrote: »

I'm English, I've been living in Ireland now for 7 years.

I'm not too far from home so it's never been an issue for me to be away.
However the past year hasn't been so great and I've had a few things happen that have made me want to be with my family.

So I'm moving back at the beginning of October - hopefully I will be able to find work pretty quickly, but to be honest it's the least of my worries. Once I'm back with my family, the rest can fall into place in time.

Being away from them is poo!

best of luck with with it. have ya flights/ferry booked. im sure the family will be be glad to have ya back. i know people were saying that its never the right time to move back but it sounds like you have found the right time.

magicmushroom

Old Perry wrote: »

best of luck with with it. have ya flights/ferry booked. im sure the family will be be glad to have ya back. i know people were saying that its never the right time to move back but it sounds like you have found the right time.

Thanks Old Perry

Yeah I just feel like it's time to go back - I have not ties here and in my heart I feel that home is where the family is!

No flights or ferry booked yet - my plan is to sell my car and buy an English reg in Newry and drive it over, I can take more stuff with me then and also saves me the hassle of being without a car when I first arrive there.
I'm just trying to re-home my 2 cats before I decide an exact date!
Have told my work though so it's all 'real' haha - can't wait to get going now

spunkymunky

Ive read through this thread with great interest as I am one of the returned. I was almost 5 years away between Australia and New Zealand (Mainly New Zealand). I came home September last year, found work quite easily (IT based) have somewhat settled into Irish life, meeting friends and family, going for pints and trying to see as much of Ireland as I can.
Probably the main reasons for leaving was family (common theme here) also a sense of isolation (brought on by choices I made while there, fixable in hindsight )…which lead to a sense of unhappiness ☹

Its been a good year but part of me cant shake that I should be back in New Zealand or not in Ireland. Not sure why but Dublin doesn’t seem the same (Ireland too!!) ….What was the Dubliner line about you cant go home??? I have changed and so has Dublin…it all seems so serious now!!

Anyway…just wondering if anyone has come back to Ireland, assessed and left again, back to where they came home from? If so, how did you get on? Was is a good move, did you make more of an effort?
(I hope this isnt hijacking the thread...not my intention)

magicmushroom

spunkymunky wrote: »

Probably the main reasons for leaving was family (common theme here) also a sense of isolation (brought on by choices I made while there, fixable in hindsight )…which lead to a sense of unhappiness ☹

Its been a good year but part of me cant shake that I should be back in New Zealand or not in Ireland. Not sure why but Dublin doesn’t seem the same (Ireland too!!) ….What was the Dubliner line about you cant go home??? I have changed and so has Dublin…it all seems so serious now!!

I've highlighted these parts as they're so relevant to me!
Feeling isolated is exactly why I'm going, I live by myself and get SO lonely and miserable.

The 2nd part, well I'm worried that home has also changed, and I fear that I will miss Ireland after a while!
But life is too short for these worries I guess.

Could you go back to New Zealand if you wanted? Did you have residency or would you be able to get another Visa?

Musicman2000

iusedtoknow wrote: »

well a lot of my friends who have already gone "home" would beg to differ. They work in IT , an industry which weathered the storms pretty well and is now flourishing again - if a little more constrained than it was in 2006.

For builders etc, there isn't a boom - but people will soon forget the idiocy that led to the crash and there will be estates of new builds before you know it, and the brickies can come back and rake it all in again.

I depends which area of IT you work in or in a specialised area. Yes they are crying out for java programmers etc. Its well paid but extremely hard work and not for everyone. I am a System Administrator after completing 5 years of courses and working 3 years in the industry I am finding it very hard to get work outside of Dublin.

Dublin is in a bubble and doing well especially with IT companies but the rest of the country is forgotten about. The major problem with Dublin is the price of rent is gone threw the roof and i personally couldn't afford to pay the prices. So I am the opposite and looking to move to the UK for IT work. So its not all good when it comes to the world of IT in Ireland.

iusedtoknow

Musicman2000 wrote: »

I depends which area of IT you work in or in a specialised area. Yes they are crying out for java programmers etc. Its well paid but extremely hard work and not for everyone. I am a System Administrator after completing 5 years of courses and working 3 years in the industry I am finding it very hard to get work outside of Dublin.

Dublin is in a bubble and doing well especially with IT companies but the rest of the country is forgotten about. The major problem with Dublin is the price of rent is gone threw the roof and i personally couldn't afford to pay the prices. So I am the opposite and looking to move to the UK for IT work. So its not all good when it comes to the world of IT in Ireland.

A few walked into Sys admin, PM and Service Management in Cork and Galway with little or no problems. None are coders. A couple walked into jobs in Belfast and Dublin. Most started their careers in Ireland, moved to the UK or the continent and came back - they are looking at around +5 year experience each.

jaymcg91

Wompa1 wrote: »

Out of interest. Did you plan that you'd have the kids you want to have before leaving the US? So you had two in quick succession so you could move back to Ireland with them having their US citizenship?

Any hassle getting the kids over to Ireland? What did you have to do to bring them there? I'm thinking of a similar strategy. I'd like to have my kids in the US and then move to Ireland with a bit of a nest egg built. My wife is American\Thai. My kids some day will be American. I'm hoping since they are my family, it'll be easy enough to get them visa and then eventually naturalized as citizens.

Children born abroad to Irish nationals are automatically regarded as citizens (this was my situation). So if your kid is born in the US they're entitled to 2 passports , you'd just need to send your birth cert or passport (I'm not sure on the exact documentation) with their passport application.

Wompa1

Musicman2000 wrote: »

I depends which area of IT you work in or in a specialised area. Yes they are crying out for java programmers etc. Its well paid but extremely hard work and not for everyone. I am a System Administrator after completing 5 years of courses and working 3 years in the industry I am finding it very hard to get work outside of Dublin.

Dublin is in a bubble and doing well especially with IT companies but the rest of the country is forgotten about. The major problem with Dublin is the price of rent is gone threw the roof and i personally couldn't afford to pay the prices. So I am the opposite and looking to move to the UK for IT work. So its not all good when it comes to the world of IT in Ireland.

My previous employers went on a Java hiring spree. The money was good by Galway terms but nowhere near as good as over here. I'm in Phoenix which isn't like San Francisco, New York, Chicago or even Seattle...ya know, it's relatively cheap living and the rate of pay is still unbelievable. I might just be lucky but I don't think so...I think it's pretty much the going rate for someone with my experience here.

When I move back to Ireland, I'll be going back to 40k max

spunkymunky

magicmushroom wrote: »

I've highlighted these parts as they're so relevant to me!
Feeling isolated is exactly why I'm going, I live by myself and get SO lonely and miserable.

The 2nd part, well I'm worried that home has also changed, and I fear that I will miss Ireland after a while!
But life is too short for these worries I guess.

Could you go back to New Zealand if you wanted? Did you have residency or would you be able to get another Visa?

I wouldnt go so fae as SO Lonely in my case but somewhat... I wasnt happy either way ( I thought anyway)
If you do miss Ireland, its only a short hope over.

I have PR so can back, and could probably get my job back too, so the options are good...its the distance and a big move (again) at 34!!!

Jim2007

Riverireland wrote: »

To anyone thinking of coming home think twice. News of Ireland recovery are being greatly exaggerated.

The facts beg to differ and I'd rely on them over opinion any day.

Old Perry

Jim2007 wrote: »

The facts beg to differ and I'd rely on them over opinion any day.

This is true. its definetly on the up and up, even a quick scan of boards shows a fair amount more positive jobs threads than say this time 2 years ago. Certainly not like pre 2005 in that ya cant walz into a job and its 100% more competitive now but on the rise none the less.

Wompa1

spunkymunky wrote: »

I wouldnt go so fae as SO Lonely in my case but somewhat... I wasnt happy either way ( I thought anyway)
If you do miss Ireland, its only a short hope over.

I have PR so can back, and could probably get my job back too, so the options are good...its the distance and a big move (again) at 34!!!

I would imagine it's more that you have changed. Living in another country and culture for a while gives you a different perspective.

I left when the recession was still at it's worst. People were pretty down when I left. They are still pretty down despite the upturn.

Jimmy Iovine

I've just returned from three years abroad - one doing a postgrad in Wales and two working in England. I liked England. I really liked getting my wages in sterling for the past few months.

I moved home partly because of the workload in England but mainly to be at least on the same island as my girlfriend. It was either going to be a case of me moving home or her moving over.

We have plans (not concrete) to move abroad in a few years. Being a teacher, the money is in the Middle East. I think we'll end up over there for at least two years. I can see us living in Ireland in the long-term though, but who knows.

Wanderer78

Wompa1 wrote: »

I left when the recession was still at it's worst. People were pretty down when I left. They are still pretty down despite the upturn.

its all relative im afraid. some people aint doing too bad now but some are not in a particularly good place particularly those that are in trouble with mortgages etc. some industries arent doing great compared to others, some pay rates have dropped dramatically, many people are working more hours than ever with ever increasing workloads and responsibilities with little or no pay rises. some parts of the country are still not doing great whereby others are flying. i do feel in some industries, moral is very low due to the above and with increased taxes etc but in saying all that, if you're really that homesick and its not going away, its probably a good idea to come home. things are probably a lot better than they were a couple of years ago but im very cautious about our 'recovery' or as i say, our survival mode.

Wanderer78

Jimmy Iovine wrote: »

We have plans (not concrete) to move abroad in a few years. Being a teacher, the money is in the Middle East. I think we'll end up over there for at least two years. I can see us living in Ireland in the long-term though, but who knows.

cousins are in the middle east last couple of years teaching. loving it. best of luck with your plans

Wompa1

Wanderer78 wrote: »

its all relative im afraid. some people aint doing too bad now but some are not in a particularly good place particularly those that are in trouble with mortgages etc. some industries arent doing great compared to others, some pay rates have dropped dramatically, many people are working more hours than ever with ever increasing workloads and responsibilities with little or no pay rises. some parts of the country are still not doing great whereby others are flying. i do feel in some industries, moral is very low due to the above and with increased taxes etc but in saying all that, if you're really that homesick and its not going away, its probably a good idea to come home. things are probably a lot better than they were a couple of years ago but im very cautious about our 'recovery' or as i say, our survival mode.

I'm lucky enough that I've been home about 5 times this past year. From what I can tell from my friends who went back to college and re-skilled, people who lost their jobs and got another job or just people who just went to college and finished. It seems all the same. Everybody is making much less than back before 2008...which is understandable and makes sense.

The only thing to me that doesn't make much sense is the fact that the cost of living was going down when I still lived there, a few years into the recession, the grocery stores had started to compete. You'd go into Tesco or Dunnes and get a 3 for 9.99 deal on meat. You could buy your dinners for a week for just over 20 euro. I know it's not a great indicator but Supremacs prices all went up. Prices of a lot of things seems to have gone up over the last 2 years or so.

The price of rent in Galway barely budged. A lot of businesses actually went under because landlords refused to drop their rent despite the fact business was down for everybody. I know Dublin and Cork had similar situations...

Here we sit over 7 years later. People working harder, making less and paying more. Obviously the introduction of Irish Water and Property Tax are two extra swift blows too...those are recurring charges and now that they are in place, they'll never be removed (though, there's hope for Irish Water) or go down in price. They'll only go up.

BUT I'd still rather be in that Ireland with the security of living in Ireland rather than be in a booming America. That's just my opinion. I'm having unbelievable opportunities here too. I hope to never need social services here or in Ireland but I like living in a country that has them. More equality. There's still a class system in Ireland but it's not nearly as harsh of a drop off as it is here.

Wanderer78

Wompa1 wrote: »

I'm lucky enough that I've been home about 5 times this past year. From what I can tell from my friends who went back to college and re-skilled, people who lost their jobs and got another job or just people who just went to college and finished. It seems all the same. Everybody is making much less than back before 2008...which is understandable and makes sense.

The only thing to me that doesn't make much sense is the fact that the cost of living was going down when I still lived there, a few years into the recession, the grocery stores had started to compete. You'd go into Tesco or Dunnes and get a 3 for 9.99 deal on meat. You could buy your dinners for a week for just over 20 euro. I know it's not a great indicator but Supremacs prices all went up. Prices of a lot of things seems to have gone up over the last 2 years or so.

The price of rent in Galway barely budged. A lot of businesses actually went under because landlords refused to drop their rent despite the fact business was down for everybody. I know Dublin and Cork had similar situations...

Here we sit over 7 years later. People working harder, making less and paying more. Obviously the introduction of Irish Water and Property Tax are two extra swift blows too...those are recurring charges and now that they are in place, they'll never be removed (though, there's hope for Irish Water) or go down in price. They'll only go up.

BUT I'd still rather be in that Ireland with the security of living in Ireland rather than be in a booming America. That's just my opinion. I'm having unbelievable opportunities here too. I hope to never need social services here or in Ireland but I like living in a country that has them. More equality. There's still a class system in Ireland but it's not nearly as harsh of a drop off as it is here.

its great to hear your story and im delighted you're doing great over there. its an amazing opportunity for you in every possible way and i wish you the best with it. im sure you will return home at some stage and irelands needs people like you to do so but sure if you dont want to, thats completely up to you. its great to have the option.

im just deeply concerned of the direction ireland is going in. the cost of living has dramatically risen in a way that is unsustainable. unfortunately this will probably give at some stage for some families and it doesnt seem like we have much of a backup plan for these families. the vulnerable of our society have become very exposed in all of this and that is a major concern. i actually think inequality may be growing in ireland which greatly worries me. even though i see what your talking about with irish water, i do feel we should be paying for water on a usage basis, im more worried about it becoming privatised in the future. its a bit of a mess really and its a bill too much for most.

Suaimhneach

SoFluffy wrote: »

My husband and I are returning home next month. We lived in the Netherlands for 2 years and then Perth for 3. I have a job to go back to in Dublin, but my husband doesn't have anything yet. We always knew we wanted to reurn to Ireland, just didn't really know when, but my job in Ireland pretty much made the decision for us! We are excited, looking forward to spending time with family and friends, but I know we will miss some things about Oz, mostly the weather and outdoor lifestyle. We are hoping it will work out for us, but if it doesn't at least we know we gave it a try!!! Nice to read through this thread, anytime this topic of conversation comes up on irish in Perth facebook pages, it's all negative ' why would you want to go back?', 'you'll be back in 6 months time'.....usual stuff.....
I'm in the middle of packing boxes and selling stuff on gumtree, took a break and read this, it nearly made me cry.....I'm so nervous, sometimes I think what the hell are we doing?!? Eekk.....😫😫

Oh I am both so happy this thread was useful and sorry it made you sad! I hope you'll keep us in the loop on how you manage on your journey back. If worst comes to worst, you can always leave again. We're some of the luckiest people in the world, we have so much choice.

Today I heard that "There's nothing to do in Dublin during the day, and nothing to do in California during the night" - I think this must be true for any hot country where outdoor sports and activities become a central part of life. But I have some friends in Ireland and they are busy every weekend at festivals, shows, hiking. I think wherever you are is what you make of it.

Hope packing goes ok, and you have all the little cries you need

BailMeOut wrote: »

We moved back in 2010 and we lived away for nearly 20 years.

If you do move back get your private Irish health insurance from day one of arriving as much of your coverage will not start for period of time after that. I forget how long but you will want to get that clock ticking as quickly as possible.

The worst part of the move for my wife was getting an Irish driving license. I already had one but the new rules meant she had to do driving lessons and do the test again. There is no way around this as you cannot drive with you USA license after 12 months.

Good luck and PM me if you need any help.

Wow, away for 20 and back for 5. No regrets? That's a long time to be away and then come back but so cool to hear from someone who's done it

Great advice re: insurance. Will keep that in mind.

Am dreading getting an Irish license They have those stupid mini-tests now that cost a bomb both in time and money. I had a provisional in Ireland in like.... 2012 maybe, dont even know where it is, and I have been driving in America for two years. The hassle when I go back will be so annoying!

Riverireland wrote: »

To anyone thinking of coming home think twice. News of Ireland recovery are being greatly exaggerated.

I think this may have some truth to it, but is entirely subjective as other people have said. Seems like the common theme of coming home is not money, but a mix of family/friends and standard of living. Always good to plan pessimistically and then be ok in the end, anyway

spunkymunky wrote: »

Ive read through this thread with great interest as I am one of the returned. I was almost 5 years away between Australia and New Zealand (Mainly New Zealand).

Its been a good year but part of me cant shake that I should be back in New Zealand or not in Ireland. Not sure why but Dublin doesn’t seem the same (Ireland too!!) ….What was the Dubliner line about you cant go home??? I have changed and so has Dublin…it all seems so serious now!!

New Zealand is so incredibly beautiful. If it was closer to Ireland (it's literally it's antipode, right?!) I would be there in a heartbeat.

I wonder will Dublin start to feel more normal for you as time goes by? Keep us in the loop.

Wanderer78 wrote: »

im just deeply concerned of the direction ireland is going in. the cost of living has dramatically risen in a way that is unsustainable. unfortunately this will probably give at some stage for some families and it doesnt seem like we have much of a backup plan for these families. the vulnerable of our society have become very exposed in all of this and that is a major concern. i actually think inequality may be growing in ireland which greatly worries me. even though i see what your talking about with irish water, i do feel we should be paying for water on a usage basis, im more worried about it becoming privatised in the future. its a bit of a mess really and its a bill too much for most.

This is a legit concern. I'd love to come back and work on it somehow - volunteer campaigning or something. I have no idea but I've always been so proud of ireland for having a social care system, I would hate to see it crumble.

murphaph

Suaimhneach wrote: »

I have no idea but I've always been so proud of ireland for having a social care system, I would hate to see it crumble.

I'd love to see it crumble and be rebuilt as a system that genuinely seeks to look after those who have temporarily fallen on hard times (except for what should be exceptional cases of incapacity to work).

I believe our current system is breeding an underclass of under achievers who believe the role of the state is to support them in their lifestyle choices and that will come back to haunt us, if it isn't already.

Wompa1

murphaph wrote: »

I'd love to see it crumble and be rebuilt as a system that genuinely seeks to look after those who have temporarily fallen on hard times (except for what should be exceptional cases of incapacity to work).

I believe our current system is breeding an underclass of under achievers who believe the role of the state is to support them in their lifestyle choices and that will come back to haunt us, if it isn't already.

You're entitled to your own opinion, of course. But I'd disagree with that. In our best times, we had an unemployment rate of around 4% in 2001-2002. I'm of the opinion that if you give people opportunities they will seize them.

To me that's the biggest problem in the US. There's such a clear class system at work. There's people that will never be given the opportunities to succeed. People point to those cases of someone who came from nothing and made millions as the example to follow. But the reality is, that's not possible for everybody.

There has always been those exceptions in Ireland... The people that just don't want to work, who are happy to just take the tax payers money and not contribute themselves. It is disgusting and it's ****e when you're one of those having 30%+ taken out of your pay while looking at some a-hole going off to Lanzarote with money from your pocket BUT I've been thinking about this a lot.

I think, unfortunately there's no sure fired, just system. I think it's a blunt force instrument. The minute you start penalizing people or with-holding for certain circumstance is the minute you start that downward spiral. Have a look at Kansas, they are going to start to limit dole recipients bank accounts, they cannot take out more than $25 from the ATM on a given day. My favorite thing about the Irish people is our caring and giving nature. Even with such high taxes and a huge downturn. We remain, per capita, one of the most giving nations on the planet to charities.

What we could do, is start to encourage people to rat out dole cheats. Right now it seems like there's people who will call you dry or an a-hole if you tell the revenue about your neighbor on the dole working nixers. There's always that tired old "What about the bankers and politicians!? Why are you coming down on me?" - We need to get a handle on the corruption across all of our society. No more excuses.