Caitlyn/Bruce Jenner...

RollieFingers

The recent Equality campaign obviously didn't have much of an affect on people's views judging by some of the comments in here! Who cares what a person does with their private lives, especially when what they are doing is not hurting or affecting others in any way? I'm talking purely about the transition here, not anything Jenner was involved in before!

Lyaiera

P_1 wrote: »

That's a fair point. The way I see it, gender identity is not all too dissimilar to sexual orientation. There is a spectrum, everybody occupies a part of it. The majority are a hard M or a hard F, some are more towards a middle ground while others again find themselves at the wrong side of it from their own perspective.

There's nothing to be feared from anybody who deviates from the norm in this case.

I hope I've explained this without making a hash of things

If it was just a gender thing then people wouldn't medically transition. There is a physical element to it as well, and that's supported by autopsies and brain scans.

pmasterson95

Lyaiera wrote: »

Any study I've read has said that people have issues because society doesn't accept them (as shown by this thread) and the loss of the ability to orgasm (which everyone is aware of going in.)

And that article talks to people who had surgery over thirty years ago. If that and "studies" with no citation is the best they can manage then I'm going to go conspiracy nut on that and say it's an article with an agenda.

From what I can see from the article, from the quotes that actually deal with trans organisations it's the lack of funding and support that's the problem.

Every problem these days get blamed on society man wanting to be woman.....its societys fault......muslims blowing people up......its societys fault.......corruption is societies fault...crime is societys fault....is anyone responsible for anything or is it all society these days?

P_1

Lyaiera wrote: »

If it was just a gender thing then people wouldn't medically transition. There is a physical element to it as well, and that's supported by autopsies and brain scans.

True and something I possibly should have explicitly stated rather than implied.

RollieFingers

pmasterson95 wrote: »

Every problem these days get blamed on society man wanting to be woman.....its societys fault......muslims blowing people up......its societys fault.......corruption is societies fault...crime is societys fault....is anyone responsible for anything or is it all society these days?

Why is a man wanting to be a woman a problem to you? It's not harming or negatively affecting anybody else!

silverfeather

I wonder at people who say things they know will be hurtful about people or to people for doing something to their own bodies that hurts no one else, especially when it's quite obviously a lot to go through on it's own.

nokia69

Lyaiera wrote: »

Any study I've read has said that people have issues because society doesn't accept them (as shown by this thread) and the loss of the ability to orgasm (which everyone is aware of going in.)

And that article talks to people who had surgery over thirty years ago. If that and "studies" with no citation is the best they can manage then I'm going to go conspiracy nut on that and say it's an article with an agenda.

From what I can see from the article, from the quotes that actually deal with trans organisations it's the lack of funding and support that's the problem.

a simple google search will show that there are plenty of people who regret having the surgery, you and other peoples claim that 100% of doctors and researchers all agree on the issue is just not true, and calling people bigots or small minded will not change that fact

http://thefederalist.com/2014/11/11/trouble-in-transtopia-murmurs-of-sex-change-regret/

another interesting link

P_1

silverfeather wrote: »

I wonder at people who say things they know will be hurtful about people or to people for doing something to their own bodies that hurts no one else, especially when it's quite obviously a lot to go through on it's own.

Curtain twitcher syndrome is what I term it as.

pmasterson95

RollieFingers wrote: »

Why is a man wanting to be a woman a problem to you? It's not harming or negatively affecting anybody else!

Oh god you guys need to get off ye're high horses. No problem to me whatever the **** he wants to be. but obviously Bruce thought being Bruce was a problem so he wanted to be a woman. That was his problem not mine.

nokia69

HugsiePie wrote: »

Damn it, how does a 65 year old male to female transexual still end up being more attractive than me-20 year old female. Oh yeah I got my parents genes :pac:

photoshop

ThinkProgress

It's a short life people, live and let live!

Even if it was true that trans people had mental issues (still a grey area - excuse the pun), they're not hurting anyone by living THEIR lives the way they wish.

I don't think it's right for anyone to berate a trans person about their life choices.

If I want to live out my life as a dishwasher, and I'm not causing harm (or too much limescale), I should be free to make that decision without being judged.

RollieFingers

pmasterson95 wrote: »

Oh god you guys need to get off ye're high horses. No problem to me whatever the **** he wants to be. but obviously Bruce thought being Bruce was a problem so he wanted to be a woman. That was his problem not mine.

"Every problem these days get blamed on society man wanting to be woman..."

That was your exact quote, word for word, but now it's not a problem?

pmasterson95

RollieFingers wrote: »

"Every problem these days get blamed on society man wanting to be woman..."

That was your exact quote, word for word, but now it's not a problem?

I meant a problem for Bruce ffs. Didnt think it was that confusing. I guess everything has to be clearly spelled out step by step or else confusion reigns. It was obviously a problem to Bruce to be Bruce so he fixed his problem by becoming Caitlyn. Still confused?

Lyaiera

nokia69 wrote: »

a simple google search will show that there are plenty of people who regret having the surgery, you and other peoples claim that 100% of doctors and researchers all agree on the issue is just not true, and calling people bigots or small minded will not change that fact

I didn't say 100% of doctors, etc. agree. I said all major medical, psychiatric, etc. organisations agree.

And of course people regret it. That's a fault of funding and care. People are being refused treatment because the HSE write Mr. Siobhan O'Leary on their paperwork and their applications for psychiatric treatment is meets a form rejection because the "Mr." obviously means they're not trans. People are left waiting for years, sometimes decades without treatment and they take an option that wasn't right for them because the system has refused to deal with them.

Fortunately the HSE are developing care pathways for this at this very moment. They're not ideal, but they're a long way better than what we have at the moment where people have to jump from one unaffiliated area to another, with no communication between the different departments. It's like that everywhere because trans people are simply not taken seriously, in the NHS because of the regionalisation and privatisation of the system, and in the US because of Health Insurance lotteries.

orubiru

silverfeather wrote: »

All trans people are BORN TRANSGENDER the differences between trans women and non trans cis gendered men are biological, so you can throw that 'not biologically female' argument out the window. They are biologically trans female, or just plain female!

Can you throw it out the window though?

Surely, there is such a thing as being born biologically male or female? Can male of female be determined from DNA or some other genetic factor?

So would we have a phrase such as "genetically male" or "genetically female"? Or would that also be unacceptable?

Is it possible for a person to be born who is neither a male or female human or can we always make a designation based on anatomy or DNA or some kind of biological factor.

I think most people are in some way comfortable with the concept of a man identifying as a woman, or a woman identifying as a man, and no issue with using "he" or "she" in accordance with the wishes of the individual.

However, I am not entirely convinced that we can say there is no such thing as being "biologically male" or "biologically female". I am willing to be corrected on that though.

This should not be confused with saying "she's not a woman! she's biologically male!", which I would consider extremely rude, but would it be acceptable to say that Caitlyn Jenner is "biologically" or "genetically" male whilst also acknowledging that she is a woman?

Is there a problem with people using scientific terms to describe individual human beings?

silverfeather

orubiru wrote: »

So would we have a phrase such as "genetically male" or "genetically female"? Or would that also be unacceptable?

I am not the person to ask. But why does the question occupy your mind so much?

Cold War Kid

I can understand people referring to Jenner as a man when Bruce - I'm not trans so I'm not gonna argue with what trans people (who are the most expert in fairness) think about it, but I don't think it's an unreasonable thing to do?

Wibbs wrote: »

However I don't like the hectoring tone of such debates(and not just about transsexuality) where any contrary opinion, or skepticism, no matter how mild is jumped on the mob who have right think on their side. Apparently we're all supposed to get behind whatever celebratory bandwagon de jour and cheer it on with no debate or enquiry, beyond what is considered "allowed". I find that more than mildly disturbing myself.

"My opinion is that it's only a mental condition" from people who have not lived as a transgender person, and who have not worked and researched in the medical field specialising in the area, is not a valid opinion- when they are easily contradicted. Contradicted based on overwhelming evidence and expertise, not just due to people not liking their opinion. The psychological angle is no doubt explored before the drastic measures that treatment entails also.
Nothing wrong with asking questions (I've done so myself above) and asking for clarification on things. chanelfreak, I think it was, did so here, and I didn't see them being attacked. If a person is ignorant on the issue (not particularly knowledgeable myself) then asking question seems like a reasonable thing to do - but presenting themselves as the expert and correct one, is not.

Lyaiera

orubiru wrote: »

Can you throw it out the window though?

Surely, there is such a thing as being born biologically male or female? Can male of female be determined from DNA or some other genetic factor?

So would we have a phrase such as "genetically male" or "genetically female"? Or would that also be unacceptable?

Is it possible for a person to be born who is neither a male or female human or can we always make a designation based on anatomy or DNA or some kind of biological factor.

I think most people are in some way comfortable with the concept of a man identifying as a woman, or a woman identifying as a man, and no issue with using "he" or "she" in accordance with the wishes of the individual.

However, I am not entirely convinced that we can say there is no such thing as being "biologically male" or "biologically female". I am willing to be corrected on that though.

This should not be confused with saying "she's not a woman! she's biologically male!", which I would consider extremely rude, but would it be acceptable to say that Caitlyn Jenner is "biologically" or "genetically" male whilst also acknowledging that she is a woman?

Is there a problem with people using scientific terms to describe individual human beings?

I can guarantee you there are men on boards, who would not consider themselves trans who are not biologically or genetically men if we go by your standards. A lot of men and women find out they are actually intersex when they try to conceive and meet difficulties. They have tests done, and it turns out they're not a perfect 100% example of their sex. This can be due to a number of biological factors, or a genetic factor. The reality is that sex cannot be determined simply. It is complex, and far more complex than "does he have balls." And this is still separate from the fact that there are structural brain similarities between pre-HRT trans men and men, and pre-HRT trans women and woman.

The vast majority of people won't face any issue, because they feel 100% a man, even though they may only be 98% man. Then sometimes you have intersex people (where it's closer to a 50/50 split) and there's trans people (who may actually be intersex but it's too expensive to find out, or they may have brain similarities to their acquired sex (again too expensive to find out, also you often have to be dead to have these tests carried out.)

RollieFingers

pmasterson95 wrote: »

I meant a problem for Bruce ffs. Didnt think it was that confusing. I guess everything has to be clearly spelled out step by step or else confusion reigns. It was obviously a problem to Bruce to be Bruce so he fixed his problem by becoming Caitlyn. Still confused?

So you compared the struggle of a trans person's transition with problems such as corruption, crime and "muslims blowing people up"? Because they're so similar :rolleyes: Words like "problem" and "blame", who cares, what Jenner is doing is affecting nobody else in any way!

silverfeather

Cold War Kid wrote: »

I can understand people referring to Jenner as a man when Bruce - I'm not trans so I'm not gonna argue with what trans people (who are the most expert in fairness) think about it, but I don't think it's an unreasonable thing to do?

My understanding is transgendered people have a sense of their gender identity from early youth. Jenner more than likely has been female inside from birth. That is really the key. Asking the person who they are inside and listening and accepting their answer.

Cold War Kid

silverfeather wrote: »

My understanding is transgendered people have a sense of their gender identity from early youth. Jenner more than likely has been female inside from birth. That is really the key. Asking the person who they are inside and listening and accepting their answer.

That's pretty well explained.

I guess there are people though on the outside who will think, in spite of the above, that Bruce was still a physically a man - I don't deem it the worst point of view either. Might seem ignorant, but not malicious.

Wibbs

Links234 wrote: »

And trans people are wrong, and people who are ok with trans people are wrong... It gets so beyond worn out. This is the debate we're meant to have every time a thread like this comes up?

So you want to live in an echo chamber where everyone agrees with and praises you and play the victim when you're not, because that's what you're advocating.

Oh and BTW while the usual overreactive high horses are out of the paddock, not once have I said it was a mental illness, nor have said people shouldn't be supported, nor have said it's any of my personal business, nor have denied the condition. Oh and I never said trans people are wrong, and people who are ok with trans people are wrong, so you can pull your neck in there. All I said was theres an element of correct think and nothing but slavish praise is acceptable to this correct think, that there was likely an element of showboating on Jenners behalf(a symptom of our times) and that the wiki entry was daft.

And I've been called pig ignorant, small minded, uneducated and lumped in with holocaust deniers and racists FFS. All because I didn't go along with the you go girl gushing narrative. With every post some on this thread are making my point for me with their ever more shrill rantings because they see their little world view threatened, even when it's not.

Links234 wrote: »

Oh and as far as wikipedia goes, it's been the editorial guidelines for freakin' years that when someone comes out as trans, they change pronouns. There's no conspiracy, nobody is running to get on any bandwagon, it's been this way all along.

Of course it's a bandwagon for gods sake. This Jenner case just makes it laughable when they write "she won a medal in the men's event". It's beyond daft. A more objective take would be to have the pre transition pronoun in place, until the section where the transition is referenced and the post transition pronoun would be in place going forward from there. Simples.

ThinkProgress

Lyaiera wrote: »

A lot of men and women find out they are actually intersex when they try to conceive

I found out before that.

I knew I was intersex after my first teenage gangbang!

How could you not be? :pac:

orubiru

silverfeather wrote: »

I am not the person to ask. But why does the question occupy your mind so much?

I think it's interesting. Is that allowed?

You said "All trans people are BORN TRANSGENDER the differences between trans women and non trans cis gendered men are biological, so you can throw that 'not biologically female' argument out the window. They are biologically trans female, or just plain female!"

So I was genuinely interested in the possibility of there being no such thing as a person being genetically male or female.

Clearly, there is some kind of "gap" between the body and the mind and our vocabulary and language used for describing male and female would have developed a long, long, time before our understanding that people do not necessarily need to conform to societies description of "male" or "female".

In purely biological terms though it must be possible to clearly identify male or female members of a species.

I am not about to jump on the "it's some kind of mental illness" side of the argument. I do not agree with this, I believe it has been thoroughly debunked, and I would much rather that people be allowed to just get on with their lives and be who they want to be.

At the same time, I was interested in the idea that there is no such thing as "biologically" male or female because I don't feel like that is even possible.

Now we do not define "gender" as simply male or female yet any given individual must fall in to one of two available categories when their genetic information is looked at.

You mentioned "cis gendered men" and for me a phrase like that acknowledges both the flexibility of gender as a concept and the rigidity of genetic categorization?

silverfeather

Cold War Kid wrote: »

That's pretty well explained.

I guess there are people though on the outside who will think, in spite of the above, that Bruce was still a physically a man - I don't deem it the worst point of view either. Might seem ignorant, but not malicious.

Philosophical arguments, are just that, philosophical. Bear in mind that is coming from a B.Phil. grad.

Lyaiera

ThinkProgress wrote: »

I found out before that.

I knew I was intersex after my first teenage gangbang!

How could you not be? :pac:

Intersexing? That's what the students do isn't it? Germany and Holland?

ThinkProgress

Lyaiera wrote: »

Intersexing? That's what the students do isn't it? Germany and Holland?

Inter. Outer. Allabouter. (You name it)

Cold War Kid

Wibbs wrote: »

So you want to live in an echo chamber where everyone agrees with and praises you and play the victim when you're not, because that's what you're advocating.

Maybe they just don't want to be getting abuse and opinions presented as fact by people who don't have a clue?

Oh and BTW while the usual overreactive high horses are out of the paddock

Your own posts are pretty hostile.

not once have I said it was a mental illness, nor have said people shouldn't be supported, nor have said it's any of my personal business, nor have denied the condition. Oh and I never said trans people are wrong, and people who are ok with trans people are wrong, so you can pull your neck in there.

I don't think people are saying it's specifically you who has said stuff like that, but others definitely have, and you're making it out it's unreasonable to criticise views like theirs.

Aka Ishur

Lyaiera wrote: »

If it was just a gender thing then people wouldn't medically transition. There is a physical element to it as well, and that's supported by autopsies and brain scans.

This is true but it must be added the physical transition can be extremely important from a self identity point of view. Pyschologically speaking identifying yourself as having the "wrong" body can be immensly disorientating and can lead to depression, suicide, dissasociative thoughts and illnesses and other serious pyschological issues. This goes equally for those that are thinking about transition and those who have completed it.

As another poster said 1 in 20 trans people experience these symptoms after transition. (You could easily say that 19 in 20 were relieved of these symptoms by the transition.)

Those thinking of transition need very high quality care by high level pyschotherapists before and after. It is not an illness but the persons state of mind needs to be taken care of greatly at such a time.

ngcxt6

Fairplay to her, although this is only a small victory for transgender people, as the fact of the matter is it's all celebrated when it's a celebrity but the majority of trans people who come out receive little to no support, are harrassed, bullied, shunned, and attacked.

1 in 12 transgender people are murdered, and I think the life expectancy for them doesn't seem to great beyond 30 years old.

But go on, laugh, mock, and call them all mentally ill why don't you, you right wing disgusting bigoted fools. The ignorance is astonishing from people when it comes to these matters.

Lyaiera

Aka Ishur wrote: »

This is true but it must be added the physical transition can be extremely important from a self identity point of view. Pyschologically speaking identifying yourself as having the "wrong" body can be immensly disorientating and can lead to depression, suicide, dissasociative thoughts and illnesses and other serious pyschological issues. This goes equally for those that are thinking about transition and those who have completed it.

I experienced these symptoms before I identified as having the wrong body. It happens whether you know you're trans or not. I knew something was wrong, I wished I was trans because that would explain everything, but I thought I couldn't be because I was just some weird freak who couldn't get an easy explanation like being trans. (A lot of that might be down to the reaction I received to expressing those thoughts when I was very young.)

nokia69

ngcxt6 wrote: »

But go on, laugh, mock, and call them all mentally ill why don't you, you right wing disgusting bigoted fools. The ignorance is astonishing from people when it comes to these matters.

I don't think anyone has done that

ThinkProgress

ngcxt6 wrote: »

Fairplay to her, although this is only a small victory for transgender people, as the fact of the matter is it's all celebrated when it's a celebrity but the majority of trans people who come out receive little to no support, are harrassed, bullied, shunned, and attacked.

1 in 12 transgender people are murdered, and I think the life expectancy for them doesn't seem to great beyond 30 years old.

But go on, laugh, mock, and call them all mentally ill why don't you, you right wing disgusting bigoted fools. The ignorance is astonishing from people when it comes to these matters.

Exit stage left.

And the Academy award for best performance in a drama or comedy goes to...

Lyaiera

ngcxt6 wrote: »

Fairplay to her, although this is only a small victory for transgender people, as the fact of the matter is it's all celebrated when it's a celebrity but the majority of trans people who come out receive little to no support, are harrassed, bullied, shunned, and attacked.

1 in 12 transgender people are murdered, and I think the life expectancy for them doesn't seem to great beyond 30 years old.

But go on, laugh, mock, and call them all mentally ill why don't you, you right wing disgusting bigoted fools. The ignorance is astonishing from people when it comes to these matters.

In fairness, quality of life is much better in Ireland. We'll never know the numbers for people who stay in the closet their entire life but the murder figures, etc. often apply to the U.S. where poor black trans women are treated like complete ****.

Apart from being pushed over in a bar, and a few comments (sometimes quite loud comments) I've never experienced the level of abuse some people get. I'm not saying Ireland is perfectly, I know people who have been assaulted, disowned, had bricks thrown at them, etc. But it's actually a pretty good place to transition. My life is unbelievably better now I have.

silverfeather

Lyaiera wrote: »

I experienced these symptoms before I identified as having the wrong body. It happens whether you know you're trans or not. I knew something was wrong, I wished I was trans because that would explain everything, but I thought I couldn't be because I was just some weird freak who couldn't get an easy explanation like being trans. (A lot of that might be down to the reaction I received to expressing those thoughts when I was very young.)

I think this thread would be very productive if we all stood aside and listened to first hand experience like this. Hopefully some people will come and add. But if it gets hostile I can't blame them for not feeling comfortable or welcome or just plain tired of having to listen to the same old, same old again.

Robsweezie

I support Caitlyn and what she's done to bring herself into being, but there 's definitely an unpleasant heir of ''SUPPORT THIS OR YOU DIE!'' all over social media in response to it, which is reminiscent of the no vote demonization we had in the mar.ref.

P_1

Genuine q for any trans people who'd like to answer. Would you tend to refer to yourself in the past name for your life pre transition or once you begin to transition all reference whatsoever to your past name is best not mentioned. Or is a classic definition of 'one size does not fit all'? Apologies if that is too blunt a question to be asking.

_Kaiser_

Oh feck, it's the SSM thread all over again - posters falling over themselves to show each other how "enlightened" they are while beating others who don't buy into the consensus over the head about how "wrong" they are! :rolleyes:

Newsflash.. people have different opinions! What's more, they're entitled to them and are just as entitled to voice them as anyone else. By all means disagree, even "argue" (constructively) about it... but this smug, arrogant view that anyone who disagrees is clearly not far removed from a sexist/mysognistic/racist/backwards/<insert similar term here> dinosaur is really starting to get ridiculous.

You know what bothers me most? Not what this person (or any other transgender/gay/straight/bi person for that matter) does in their personal life/relationships - frankly, I couldn't give a toss as long as they themselves are happy - but this hypocritical attitude from those who berate others about a person's right to choose/believe/feel whatever they want... and then attack others for doing exactly that because it doesn't fit with "popular opinion" really galls me!

Robsweezie

also drake bells been getting death on twitter and beyond over some tweet about ''still calling you bruce''. did he really deserve to be called a transphobe over what was likely an ''insensitive'' joke? im not sure, it did seem like a bit of an ugly thing to say.

DoYouEvenLift

http://m.snopes.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/caitlyn-jenner-noah-galloway.jpg


Not to mention Bruce Jenner allegedly killed someone. Lol, I was like lol.

Deranged96

Caitlyn is the only one of that crowd promoting a positive body image.

Go her.

Wibbs

Cold War Kid wrote: »

Maybe they just don't want to be getting abuse and opinions presented as fact by people who don't have a clue?

Little enough abuse on the thread. Far more support and much of it unbridled and with an air of support competition. Indeed I can easily list more abuse going the other way.

Your own posts are pretty hostile.

within a spitting distance of this? "you right wing disgusting bigoted fools". Have I lumped in anyone with Holocaust deniers and racists? And that's just in the last two pages and I was directly referenced twice. And yet I'm the hostile one? Ok...

I don't think people are saying it's specifically you who has said stuff like that,

See above.

but others definitely have, and you're making it out it's unreasonable to criticise views like theirs.

It's unreasonable to get mob handed with them. Criticism is not the problem.

orubiru wrote: »

I think it's interesting. Is that allowed?

Tread carefully it seems...

You said "All trans people are BORN TRANSGENDER the differences between trans women and non trans cis gendered men are biological, so you can throw that 'not biologically female' argument out the window. They are biologically trans female, or just plain female!"

What I find interesting on this point is in one discussion on the biological brain differences between men and women, the idea that there aren't, or they make little difference is the "accepted" notion, yet in this discussion it seems it's the the "accepted" notion, nay a scientific given that there are gender brain differences which explain trans folks, and often the same people believe both views, depending on the debate. Dunno how they square that particular circle.

Personally and from I've read on the matter, there are subtle differences between the "male" and "female" brain. As an average of course, there will always be outliers at either end. Even medicine recognises this as men and women can have quite different responses and outcomes after strokes for example. Men and women suffer from different conditions at different rates too. More male autistic spectrum, more male stutterers, more male left handedness.

Just so some are clear, my position would that as well as the rarer genetic anomalies/intersex there are people who are completely male or female physically, but have an opposing gender brain structure. Down to genetics and hormonal exposure in the womb. At lower levels this may lead to someone growing up to be gay, at higher levels it might mean someone growing up trapped in the wrong gender. It seems the womb environment has a large role in this, but there may be other environmental factors too. Identical twin studies can show some twins (who are essentially genetic clones), where one twin is gay and the other isn't. There may be a genetic component for some, but it seems to be a weak one, or there may be many genes at play. I don't think there's anything close to a "Gay gene" for example and I'd bet the farm similar can be said about trans individuals.

Do I think transgender is a mentall illness? Nope. Do I think mental illness and the condition are very often bedfellows? Yes. But that's a chicken and egg situation. Every group of outliers show higher levels of stress and attendant mental illness and you can't get more outlier than facing the world as a "different" gender. Never mind feeling a prisoner in one's own shell, which must be horrific. I'm reminded of Kafka's man transformed into an enormous insect. The near constant feeling of being disconnected would drive anyone mad. Do I think some trans people have a mental illness that isn't transgender in nature? Yes. A severe generalised dysmorphia that comes out in gender. I would suspect these are the folks who later regret transitioning, or self harm, even to fatality, as it didn't address the root issue(s). That said they're very much the minority as the stats seem to show.

Do I believe medical science has a full handle on this? No. This(PDF) from the Lancet sums up much of my concern and suspicion about quite a bit of current medical research, that can lead to dogma in practice(and it applies to general science too).

Cold War Kid

Wibbs, guess it's a matter of perspective. I'm not seeing abuse towards people who are saying spiteful, ignorant things about trans people (and I don't mean simply people who are asking reasonable questions) - just robust disputing of them, which is hardly unreasonable.
I also don't agree you're a nazi monster whatever you said was said about you.

You overdo the "I'm really anti liberal" thing at times IMO but I still think you're fairly liberal despite the protesting.

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Oh feck, it's the SSM thread all over again - posters falling over themselves to show each other how "enlightened" they are while beating others who don't buy into the consensus over the head about how "wrong" they are! :rolleyes:

Don't worry - there's the people falling over themselves to show how "anti PC" and "anti liberal" they are too, to balance things out.

Newsflash.. people have different opinions! What's more, they're entitled to them and are just as entitled to voice them as anyone else.

Opinions that contradict fact/opinions that are borne out of just a gut feeling but literally no knowledge... are not valid.

If I went into the rugby forum and went on about how sh-t rugby is and how that's a fact, even though I don't know the last thing about rugby, I would deserve all the contempt I got.
Despite my lack of knowledge of rugby though, the tiny bit I am familiar with really does not appeal to me - so I just avoid it.

Wibbs

Cold War Kid wrote: »

Wibbs, guess it's a matter of perspective. I'm not seeing abuse towards people who are saying spiteful, ignorant things about trans people (and I don't mean simply people who are asking reasonable questions) - just robust disputing of them, which is hardly unreasonable.

I'd suggest looking again to find that perspective and only in the last few pages too.

RayM wrote: »

If, if, if... If your aunt had balls, she'd be your uncle (unless she identified as female - in which case, just address her by the pronoun of the gender she identifies as, rather than being pig-ignorant just for the sake of sticking it to teh SJWs!!111eleven).

In reply to a post of mine.

Or this beaut, in the same vein as the above, but using more syllables.

silverfeather wrote: »

If you use arguments again and again that have been debunked by experts with falsifiable research you can't complain if people call you a small minded bigot because that is what small minded bigots do. The holocaust deniers do it. Those who deny evolution do it. It is not acceptable to use the ruse of free speech to spout out illogical rubbish that is not actually based on anything falsifiable. That is the difference. Fattymuatty and Wibbs are giving opinions (and pretty unfounded, small minded and uneducated ones). That is fine we allow them to be heard. However they are not rigorous peer reviewed research. If you stick to your uneducated opinion when it has been debunked by falsifiable evidence that is one step further than free speech that is free choice. You are choosing your silly opinion over something more sensible because it suits the way you FEEL and you wish to cover your ass for doing so. And that is exactly what holocaust deniers do or what racists do. They point to free speech when actually they are choosing with full knowledge to believe something less credible than the argument that they oppose on an emotional basis of prejudice and discomfort.

I would like to coin the phrase Trans deniers. I wanted to coin a phrase that would have given me the acronym TWAT. But it's just not my day.

I highlighted the non abusive parts. I guarantee that if I or anyone else had used that kind of "argument" and those terms about anyone on the Correct Think(™) side, they'd have broken the report button and run to the daddy authoritaaay figure to stop the bad feels. Better yet show me a post like the above(and there are others from others) from the "ignorant" side that comes close.

Wanna check that perspective again CWK?

Opinions that contradict fact/opinions that are borne out of just a gut feeling but literally no knowledge... are not valid.

Depends entirely on the research one references(few enough are doing so in this thread). Depends on the time and culture too. And as for personal opinions, there have been quite the number of posters claiming little is valid save for the personal subjective opinions and stories of transexuals. Pot, may I introduce you to kettle.

_Kaiser_

Having read back a bit more...

As said by others, who/whatever (sex) Jenner considers himself to be now, he was born a man and competed in events as a man.. some of the comments on the previous pages that attempt to rewrite these biological and historical facts are just beyond bizarre - I suppose if I go look up a few of the events on YouTube next week, the CGI wizards will have photoshopped how he/she looks now in instead??

This isn't about Jenner being transgender or people's knowledge of that situation... it's about how some/many? people seem to have lost their ability to be objective (and the ability to say "hang on a minute... that's all cool and all, but... " when that (dangerous?) opinion might conflict with the "socially acceptable", "progressive" group think on any such historically controversial issue.

It seems that it's far more important than ever to be "in" with the consensus, and to me that's far more worrying to be honest.

Wibbs

Cold War Kid wrote: »

I also don't agree you're a nazi monster whatever you said was said about you.

Depends… hmmm. Well I do regularly wear original Nazi issued wristwatches and have quite a few parts of a Stuka dive bomber laying about and I have a nice pair of jackboots. I even have an egg cup with the eagle and swastika on the side and use it regularly. Cracks me up TBH. A fcuking Nazi eggcup. You'd think at the time they might have thought "ehhh da fuq?" :pac:

You overdo the "I'm really anti liberal" thing at times IMO but I still think you're fairly liberal despite the protesting.

Oh I'm extremely "liberal" on most matters. My basic fallback is the aim of civilisation should be fairness for all.

However CW I am anti whinging attention seeking, selfie philosophy, feel my feelz, cos that's all that matters as a "victim" and how can I get this on Facebook, because I'm a special snowflake and even the slightest question of my house of cards belief system is aggression "liberal". It demeans human beings across the board. In much the same way that I believe that third wave "feminism" makes women perpetual victims without any agency, but they want to have their cake and eat it and still be accepted as adult human beings. Doesn't sound like 90% of the women I know and have known.

Wibbs

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Having read back a bit more...

As said by others, who/whatever (sex) Jenner considers himself to be now, he was born a man and competed in events as a man.. some of the comments on the previous pages that attempt to rewrite these biological and historical facts are just beyond bizarre - I suppose if I go look up a few of the events on YouTube next week, the CGI wizards will have photoshopped how he/she looks now in instead??

This isn't about Jenner being transgender or people's knowledge of that situation... it's about how some/many? people seem to have lost their ability to be objective (and the ability to say "hang on a minute... that's all cool and all, but... " when that (dangerous?) opinion might conflict with the "socially acceptable", "progressive" group think on any such historically controversial issue.

It seems that it's far more important than ever to be "in" with the consensus, and to me that's far more worrying to be honest.

This basically nails my position 100%.

Cold War Kid

Wibbs wrote: »

However CW I am anti whinging attention seeking, selfie philosophy, feel my feelz, cos that's all that matters as a "victim" and how can I get this on Facebook, because I'm a special snowflake and even the slightest question of my house of cards belief system is aggression "liberal". It demeans human beings across the board. In much the same way that I believe that third wave "feminism" makes women perpetual victims without any agency, but they want to have their cake and eat it and still be accepted as adult human beings. Doesn't sound like 90% of the women I know and have known.

Yeah I hate all that shyte too, but sometimes it gets applied to just a basic non conservative position unfairly - a good few posters do it here a lot.
I also think a bit too much stock is put into it (one nut-job's blog being held up as representative of so much more than just the fringe) - it's not everyday life; the only time I ever encounter it is on the internet, and only a small bit because I don't seek it out. I don't go on Tumblr and don't follow those headcases on Twitter. It might be life in the bubbles that are Californian and London campuses, but not reality.

pl4ichjgy17zwd

Robsweezie wrote: »

also drake bells been getting death on twitter and beyond over some tweet about ''still calling you bruce''. did he really deserve to be called a transphobe over what was likely an ''insensitive'' joke? im not sure, it did seem like a bit of an ugly thing to say.

Well, purposefully misgendering someone or calling them by their old name when they've expressed what their name is now is pretty transphobic, so yeah.

If by 'death' you mean literal death threats, then obviously that is not okay and should be taken seriously by twitter/the police. As to people calling him out, well he made a transphobic remark and then subsequent remarks (also deleted) that appear to be back-peddling, so I don't think it was a joke.

I can only speculate, but it may have been to purposely stir up a reaction and get his name out there...I certainly haven't heard about him in a long time. Either way it was a pretty shitty thing to say.

YFlyer

silverfeather wrote: »

All trans people are BORN TRANSGENDER the differences between trans women and non trans cis gendered men are biological, so you can through that 'not biologically female' argument out the window. They are biologically trans female, or just female.

His 400m time is faster than Marita Koch.