Caitlyn/Bruce Jenner...

Lyaiera

It's amazing how people are willing to argue against the opinion of so many medical experts because they feel it's wrong. It's like the vaccines business. But chemicals, and stuff, and autism!

allym

Lyaiera wrote: »

It's amazing how people are willing to argue against the opinion of so many medical experts because they feel it's wrong. It's like the vaccines business. But chemicals, and stuff, and autism!

Not only that, but arguing with people who've actually been through the process, and maybe, just maybe, have a better understanding of what is and isn't involved.

People never cease to amaze

nokia69

Lyaiera wrote: »

It's amazing how people are willing to argue against the opinion of so many medical experts because they feel it's wrong. It's like the vaccines business. But chemicals, and stuff, and autism!

are people saying its wrong

if Bruce are any one else wants to mutilate his body and pretend to be a woman more power to him, its his body after all

just don't expect us to go along with his delusion

Lyaiera

nokia69 wrote: »

are people saying its wrong

if Bruce are any one else want to mutilate his body and pretend to be a woman more power to him, its his body after all

just don't expect us to go along with his delusion

You mean the systematic delusion of the world wide medical industry corrupting our children to make them pseudo people?

*tinfoil hat*

Clearlier

Chloris wrote: »

Jesus Christ that's what happens to literally every teenager. You feel uncomfortable in your skin, you're awkward, you have identity issues. From the sounds of it, I should have gotten your treatment too. But I didn't, because we have the freedom to choose whether to power through and come out a more resilient person, or to rely on medication and hormone treatment and never know if we could have been a stronger person without them.

You think that Caitlyn Jenner didn't try to 'power through'? Most people experience the identity issues that you describe as part of puberty but they grow up, develop their identity and more or less resolve those identity issues. This has nothing to do with puberty, IIRC Louis Theroux's programme included kids well below the age of puberty struggling with their gender identity.

Chloris wrote: »

The article states, fair enough, it's not a mental illness. It then goes on to emphasise that it causes severe stress, anxiety, depression... It leads to people to cut off their junk, to inhibit their sexual development - there's something questionable about encouraging that.

So being transgender causes severe stress, anxiety and depression and you think that should be treated by saying that it's not real? Seems to me like doctors and psychiatrists who have spent years studying this area might be a better bet for judgements on treatment!

Links234

You know, it felt like things were all positive and on the up last night, now it feels like Westboro Baptist is leaking into boards *headdesk*

seamus

allym wrote: »

Not only that, but arguing with people who've actually been through the process, and maybe, just maybe, have a better understanding of what is and isn't involved.

People never cease to amaze

"My opinion can't possibly be wrong, therefore your very existence must be wrong".

That sums up every single bigot's argument since time immemorial.

Chloris

Lyaiera wrote:

You mean the systematic delusion of the world wide medical industry corrupting our children to make them pseudo people?

The point is that everyone has freedom of choice. I'd love to see the instances of gender dysphoria among people who have never heard about it before, might provide some insight as to whether it is an organically developing condition or whether it's, like you say, systematic delusion of our children by the medical industry, who obviously want them to take up more services (hormone modification at first, mood enhancing drugs, then often eventually costly surgical procedures).

And as for debating with people who have had it done, surely somebody who isn't affected by the disorder can provide some objective insights on a question there is no medically certain answer to. Somebody who has undergone procedures or who is taking medication will have a sense of 'something being done'; the placebo effect.

Chloris

Links234 wrote:

You know, it felt like things were all positive and on the up last night, now it feels like Westboro Baptist is leaking into boards *headdesk*

Nobody mentioned God or religion until you brought them into it. You're the one being so fundamentally behind something there is so little research into and assuming that because something happens to be true for you, it is a universal truth.

eviltwin

Caitlyn looks amazing, better than I thought she would. Seeing her you realise how wrong Bruce looked in his skin. It's great she finally gets to be the person she is. I can't stand the Kardashian family but kudos to them for being so accepting of her transition, it can't be easy.

eviltwin

Chloris wrote: »

Nobody mentioned God or religion until you brought them into it. You're the one being so fundamentally behind something there is so little research into and assuming that because something happens to be true for you, it is a universal truth.

And precisely because there is so little research we have to take people's personal accounts at face value. Links has always spoken of her transition in very positive terms, does that make her an expert? No, but it gives her more authority than about 99% of people posting here.

murpho999

Chloris wrote: »

Jesus Christ that's what happens to literally every teenager. You feel uncomfortable in your skin, you're awkward, you have identity issues. From the sounds of it, I should have gotten your treatment too. But I didn't, because we have the freedom to choose whether to power through and come out a more resilient person, or to rely on medication and hormone treatment and never know if we could have been a stronger person without them.

Really disagree with this. The average teenager's pubescent identity issues are normally caused by other factors and one's self confidence.

Your sexuality however, something that ultimately defines you as person and how live your life in the world is something much bigger than that and is not something you can "power through".

You sound like one of the old fashioned types who think that the "Gays can be cured" to be honest.

Lyaiera

Chloris wrote: »

The point is that everyone has freedom of choice. I'd love to see the instances of gender dysphoria among people who have never heard about it before, might provide some insight as to whether it is an organically developing condition or whether it's, like you say, systematic delusion of our children by the medical industry, who obviously want them to take up more services (hormone modification at first, mood enhancing drugs, then often eventually costly surgical procedures).

And as for debating with people who have had it done, surely somebody who isn't affected by the disorder can provide some objective insights on a question there is no medically certain answer to. Somebody who has undergone procedures or who is taking medication will have a sense of 'something being done'; the placebo effect.

Yes, this has all been considered. Which is why science has been done. The science doers have been busy working away at their science factories and the science has said that this happens. The history and anthropology people have gotten in the act too, they've said this has been happening forever and a day.

So it's either a global scientific conspiracy (vaccines, chemtrails, 9/11 (jet fuel can't melt steal beams,) global warming, evolution, etc.) Or it's real and has been happening for a while.

But them braniacs with their science brains are smart out, cute whores too. So I wouldn't put it past them to have made me and thousands of others feel a certain way all our lives just so they could fool me. I'm glad there's non-sheeples willing to fight for truth.

PeteFalk78

eviltwin wrote: »

Caitlyn looks amazing, better than I thought she would.

You think that pic isn't heavily photoshopped? I doubt he would resemble anything looking like a female without its magic.

smash

It's got to be extremely hard for someone in his/her position to do something like this. I heard the interview where he/she said "Bruce has a past, Caitlyn is a clean slate" but no matter how many times he/she tells himself/herself that, the past will always be there.

Hande hoche!

Reminds me of Felicity Huffman.

eviltwin

PeteFalk78 wrote: »

You think that pic isn't heavily photoshopped? I doubt he would resemble anything looking like a female without its magic.

It's not so much the physical transformation, I mean the body language. Bruce was always quiet and reserved, Caitlyn looks free.

Penny Tration

She looks lovely.

Very brave decision.

nokia69

the amount of virtue signalling in this thread is off the scale

Samaris

OK, on the one hand, fair play to Jenner for being a moderately high profile person giving an example that this isn't shameful and evil. And/or non-existent.

On the other hand, I have little to no time for Kardashians in general so I am as affected or unaffected as if it were anyone else. I wish her the best, but I would honestly prefer if Kardashians in general didn't fill up my newsfeeds.

chanelfreak

I really dont know how to take this. I think Caitlyn looks amazing (really like a cross between Jessica Lange and Idina Menzel as other posters have said) and I just want to apologise in advance if this comes across as bigoted/prejudiced, I do NOT mean it to be, I just have very little in-depth understanding of the issue.

I hope Caitlyn went through all of the psychological assessments that the ordinary Joe Soap would have to go through before taking such a decision. I have an idea that maybe in this situation 'money talked' and the transformation process was started before all the necessary assessments could be completed. Living your life in the media glare can often bring a sense of unreality to your life (I would imagine!) so I hope for her sake she is left in peace to deal with her new beginning, especially if her coming-out as such was premature, due to paps/media intrusiveness.

The one thing that makes me wonder about the whole situation is when Khloe asked Bruce (before his Diane Sawyer interview) if he would be a lesbian when he transitioned and he replied with 'no I am 100% heterosexual'. Now excuse me if I am being dim, but now that Caitlyn has been introduced to the world, surely that makes her a lesbian (as presumably she will still be attracted to women)? Or is it usual that a transgender person will still find males attractive if they transition from a female to a male and vice versa?

I think for a lot of posters, this whole issue is brand new and I for one welcome the discussion we are having here as a means for expanding my knowledge on the subject.

Links (and any other transgender people) I apologise if I have offended you, I hope you can see that it's not my intention I am just genuinely interested to learn more.

Lyaiera

Sexuality is separate to sex. Some trans men are attracted to women before they transition, some are attracted to men. That can stay the same as they transition. Some people find that they're more open sexually once they transition and are attracted to both sexes. Some people find they had repressed their sexuality, and if a trans woman was attracted to women before she transitioned, she could find she's now attracted to men.

There's no hard and fast rule. Who you're attracted to could stay the same, you could end up attracted to both sexes, you could find you're attracted to the opposite sex than you were attracted to before. There's a lot of reasons for all this, and a lot of them are about being more open to yourself once you transitioned.

I'm attracted to the same sex as I was before I transitioned, I'm just a lot more open about it now.

chanelfreak

Lyaeira, thank you so much for your explanation, I hope you weren't offended by my ignorance

eternal

Can both men and women transition? Is all about hormones? Excuse my ignorance but it's very interesting.

Lyaiera

chanelfreak wrote: »

Lyaeira, thank you so much for your explanation, I hope you weren't offended by my ignorance

No, 'twas fine. I genuinely find most people are just curious and that rarely offends me. I've often had a conversation with a regular in my local and had to explain, "I'll answer this, I'm fine with it, but please don't ask a random trans person you run into the same question. It's a personal question and not everyone will be comfortable with it." But I've known these people for years and they're generally grand, even if they can be a bit thick at times (can't we all?)

chanelfreak

Lyaeira, absolutely! We can all suffer from the occasional bout of dimness Really appreciate your response because I live in mortal dread of offending someone IRL.

In response to someone who said that the picture was heavily photoshopped - what picture isn't photshopped to high hell and back these days? Anyone remember the picture of Julia Roberts advertising some perfume/make-up a while back? The woman looked like an android!

Chloris

Lyaiera wrote:

But them braniacs with their science brains are smart out, cute whores too. So I wouldn't put it past them to have made me and thousands of others feel a certain way all our lives just so they could fool me. I'm glad there's non-sheeples willing to fight for truth.

Even the most ignorant of people can see that from a purely economical standpoint, pharmaceutical companies stand to gain more by having people thinking they're unwell. Acknowledging that doesn't make me a conspiracy theorist, that makes me a human being living in the world with a functioning brain.

eviltwin wrote:

And precisely because there is so little research we have to take people's personal accounts at face value. Links has always spoken of her transition in very positive terms, does that make her an expert? No, but it gives her more authority than about 99% of people posting here.

Well my account is one of somebody who very well could have considered the same sort of therapies and didn't. I'm perfectly happy and have no gender identity issues anymore. I don't understand why you're so quick to accept once side of the coin and completely disregard the other.

murpho999 wrote:

Your sexuality however, something that ultimately defines you as person and how live your life in the world is something much bigger than that and is not something you can "power through".

I'm predominantly attracted to women, primarily identify with men and yet lead a perfectly content female life with my partner of ten years. I'm just saying that availing of medical interventions isn't always necessary or advisable. I understand that it's a personal choice, but surely not filling your body with all sorts of crap and working on your attitude and self-image instead of resigning yourself to a life of medication and hormone treatments is healthier.

Lyaiera

eternal wrote: »

Can both men and women transition? Is all about hormones? Excuse my ignorance but it's very interesting.

Yes. There are trans men (female to male) and trans women (male to female.) Hormones are the big deal, they have an effect on your body, and a lot of people report that they feel much happier once they start on them. I'd imagine 99.9% of trans people have the goal of getting hormone therapy. For some people surgery may not be as big a deal, and it usually becomes less pressing once hormone treatment starts, because people begin to feel better in themselves and can wait. (This is because the dysphoria decreases, it's still there and it can be intense, but when you feel better more of the time, the bad times can be more tolerable. Sometimes the opposite happens though and people become more focused on getting to the "end" of their transition, whether that's facial surgery, chest surgery for trans men or a hysterectomy, or genital surgery.)

Wibbs

NachoBusiness wrote: »

Rape is the second most masculine pursuit that comes to your mind?

Good Christ. Put down the Internet ffs.

I lolled at cage fighting myself.

For me, if someone wants to become a man or woman or whatever, I say knock yourself out. One life to live and all that. It's not affecting me so big whoop.

However I don't like the hectoring tone of such debates(and not just about transsexuality) where any contrary opinion, or skepticism, no matter how mild is jumped on the mob who have right think on their side. Apparently we're all supposed to get behind whatever celebratory bandwagon de jour and cheer it on with no debate or enquiry, beyond what is considered "allowed". I find that more than mildly disturbing myself.

As for this cover? IMHO it's got little enough to do with spreading the trans message, but far more to do with our cultures current obsession with the cult of non personality, clickbaiting and that family's "brand", there's an ongoing "documentary series" about this, dontcha know.

nokia69 wrote:

the amount of virtue signalling in this thread is off the scale

Aye that it is N.

c_man

The only context from which I know the guy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bo2m4eTrKQ4