Granting automatic citizenship to refugees

KingBrian2

New arrivals into Europe via the Mediterranean, are they to be granted full citizenship or temporary citizenship until their home countries can take them back. A number of initiatives have already been tried and we just can't leave them in those Immigration centres. This is a big situation that needs real attention. How can it be improved?

MathDebater

Three years residence for refugees resident in Ireland. Two of the usual five years are waived.

RDM_83 again

KingBrian2 wrote: »

New arrivals into Europe via the Mediterranean, are they to be granted full citizenship or temporary citizenship until their home countries can take them back. A number of initiatives have already been tried and we just can't leave them in those Immigration centres. This is a big situation that needs real attention. How can it be improved?

Whats the unemployment rate in italy?what sort of wages can a young person expect if they are lucky enough to be working?I know a few italians and the situation over there is pretty grim for many.

The Corinthian

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Whats the unemployment rate in italy?what sort of wages can a young person expect if they are lucky enough to be working?I know a few italians and the situation over there is pretty grim for many.

WTF has that got to do with the thread topic? Italians don't even need citizenship to live and work in Ireland, just as the Irish don't even need citizenship to live and work in Italy.

KingBrian2

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Whats the unemployment rate in italy?what sort of wages can a young person expect if they are lucky enough to be working?I know a few italians and the situation over there is pretty grim for many.

Very shortly Italy will become a host country for migrants to migrate to Calais or flee to German and Swedish cities. It is a knock on situation. The Hungarians don't want them neither do the Poles, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania cannot sustain them so dealing with all these nationalities will be incredible difficult if we don't do something about the issue of citizenship.

RDM_83 again

The Corinthian wrote: »

WTF has that got to do with the thread topic? Italians don't even need citizenship to live and work in Ireland, just as the Irish don't even need citizenship to live and work in Italy.

KingBrian2 wrote: »

New arrivals into Europe via the Mediterranean

They will be landing in Italy, the Dublin Regs/Convention isn't dead yet (and the push by German and Sweden for relocation won't apply to those landing in Europe AFAIK simply the internal Red Cross camps,), don't expect a move like this too be pushed if it would result in free travel within the EU that would be a massive push for Brexit, and though they talk a hard game the other EU countries really don't want that and ironically I could see the Eastern EU countries torpedoing this as it increases the chance of British exit (which would definitely harm many of their citizens, and fits nicely with the right wing views of many of the governments involved).

In short this will make Free movement of Labor within the EU a hardline for the Conservatives (something the EU wants to avoid)

The Corinthian

I see; in fairness I should have been able to join the dots in your argument and figure out the connection myself.

RDM_83 again

The Corinthian wrote: »

I see; in fairness I should have been able to join the dots in your argument and figure out the connection myself.

It was a leap alright but the whole concept of giving them citizenship is to get them to leave the country and not be bounced back by the countries to the North its not about anything else, there isn't work for many many ethnic Italians who would tend to be as highly educated and have good networks (yes I know there is no "real" Italians) welfare that exists is already under pressure.

KingBrian2

I see in the papers that the Hungarians are getting offensive when it comes to the migrant question. Building a fence to keep migrants from Afghanistan, Syria and Iraq from coming via Serbia and Greece. They are at least taking a stand well aware that bringing in all these people only for them to move on to other European destinations would be disastrous for their economy. From their point of view they gain nothing as these migrants offer nothing whereas the pressures on society to absorb all these people would create consequences we are all to aware of as in Spain and France in which we see mass numbers of people desperately trying to run the police shield to enter these countries.

kidneyfan

KingBrian2 wrote: »

New arrivals into Europe via the Mediterranean, are they to be granted full citizenship or temporary citizenship until their home countries can take them back. A number of initiatives have already been tried and we just can't leave them in those Immigration centres. This is a big situation that needs real attention. How can it be improved?

Immediate return of everyone crossing the med to a refugee camp in Libya for UN processing and immediate acceptance on an EU wide basis of all approved refugees with all appropriate supports. If Libya is inappropriate establish a single EU wide processing centre in London (as above).

dissed doc

The best solution is to isolate and contain Germany and Sweden.

Fail to recognise any German or Swedish passport or refugee paper, on grounds that the governments in those countries have allowed uncontrolled access to the internal EU by being easy pushovers for refugees/cheap new workers.

I think it would teach a very big lesson, if German and Swedish citizens found themselves packaged up nicely with the refugees. The economy in Germany is already getting a battering from the Russian policies. No reason why other EU countries could also prohibit the free movement of German or Swedish residents (any type) based on them being potentially bogus.

oscarBravo

dissed doc wrote: »

Fail to recognise any German or Swedish passport...

It's astonishing the lengths to which some people are prepared to go to keep foreigners out.

View

dissed doc wrote: »

The best solution is to isolate and contain Germany and Sweden.

Fail to recognise any German or Swedish passport or refugee paper, on grounds that the governments in those countries have allowed uncontrolled access to the internal EU by being easy pushovers for refugees/cheap new workers.

I think it would teach a very big lesson, if German and Swedish citizens found themselves packaged up nicely with the refugees. The economy in Germany is already getting a battering from the Russian policies. No reason why other EU countries could also prohibit the free movement of German or Swedish residents (any type) based on them being potentially bogus.

According to Eurostat, in Q3 2014, Germany's rate of granting refugee status or subsidary protection status is exactly in line with the average for the EU. Ireland is in fact very marginally above the EU (& German) average, so presumably Irish passports shouldn't be recognised either???

Brindor

KingBrian2 wrote: »

New arrivals into Europe via the Mediterranean, are they to be granted full citizenship or temporary citizenship until their home countries can take them back. A number of initiatives have already been tried and we just can't leave them in those Immigration centres. This is a big situation that needs real attention. How can it be improved?

Temporary Citizenship I think personally, because shouldn't they go back once that whole Mess is cleared up?
That's what I think they should do.

gobsh!te

oscarBravo wrote: »

It's astonishing the lengths to which some people are prepared to go to keep foreigners out.

Continue...what is the point of this?

If you were broke would you invite people to come stay in your house, help them get a job while your family stayed out of work, pay for their stay while you were behind on your mortgage payments?

What is astonishing to me is how people let emotions control their arguments instead of facts...and then portray themselves as morality kings to anyone who disagrees.

dissed doc

View wrote: »

According to Eurostat, in Q3 2014, Germany's rate of granting refugee status or subsidary protection status is exactly in line with the average for the EU. Ireland is in fact very marginally above the EU (& German) average, so presumably Irish passports shouldn't be recognised either???

From Q3 2015 germany extended an open invitation to (as per their own estimates) around 800,000+ refugees, which they then in the past week want to distribute to their fellow EU countries.

That is like me inviting and unlimited amount of people to your house to stay. It is effectively like a Facebook party listed as a public event

And as regards 2014 stats you referenced, last year is last year and times have changed as should our policies as per the reality we live in. What they (and Merkel) are doing now is a rapid and unexpected change from previous policy, which they want to impose across the EU.

Ireland has not (as yet) affected a similar policy to Germany's new policy of free for all access to the EU l, so why would Irish documents be restricted. Germany has thrown open the doors to our house, we have not.

oscarBravo

gobsh!te wrote: »

If you were broke...

We're not broke.

RDM_83 again

oscarBravo wrote: »

We're not broke.

But you have been saying that we do need to implement austerity based measures and cut the deficit for the last X years

Like seriously just type deficit into advanced search and you can see you have been arguing that we are broke.

What makes this issue different that we can suddenly afford it while other parts of the social safety net for existing Irish citizens can be culled.

trashcan

KingBrian2 wrote: »

New arrivals into Europe via the Mediterranean, are they to be granted full citizenship or temporary citizenship until their home countries can take them back. A number of initiatives have already been tried and we just can't leave them in those Immigration centres. This is a big situation that needs real attention. How can it be improved?

Legal residency and Citizenship are two completely separate things.

oscarBravo

oscarBravo wrote: »

We're not broke.

...We will be soon if the Government don't grow a backbone and refuse to accept thousands of 'refugees'

The Randy Riverbeast

dissed doc wrote: »

The best solution is to isolate and contain Germany and Sweden.

Fail to recognise any German or Swedish passport or refugee paper, on grounds that the governments in those countries have allowed uncontrolled access to the internal EU by being easy pushovers for refugees/cheap new workers.

I think it would teach a very big lesson, if German and Swedish citizens found themselves packaged up nicely with the refugees. The economy in Germany is already getting a battering from the Russian policies. No reason why other EU countries could also prohibit the free movement of German or Swedish residents (any type) based on them being potentially bogus.

Awful idea about Germany at least. What do we do when Germany wants to give us the same treatment? Lots of Irish people get thrown out all to stop a few refugees, most of which have no interest in Ireland? I know people make it sound like Ireland is some sort of utopia if you're an asylum seeker but having a lower than EU average rate of applications says otherwise.

oscarBravo

RDM_83 again wrote: »

But you have been saying that we do need to implement austerity based measures and cut the deficit for the last X years

Yes. That doesn't mean we're broke; it means we needed to cut the deficit.

Like seriously just type deficit into advanced search and you can see you have been arguing that we are broke.

I just did. I couldn't find the word "broke".

What makes this issue different that we can suddenly afford it while other parts of the social safety net for existing Irish citizens can be culled.

What parts of the social safety net for existing Irish citizens have I proposed to cull?

Deleted User wrote: »

...We will be soon if the Government don't grow a backbone and refuse to accept thousands of 'refugees'

No, we won't.

Nodin

Deleted User wrote: »

...We will be soon if the Government don't grow a backbone and refuse to accept thousands of 'refugees'

There is no realistic possibility of the numbers mooted causing such a thing.

View

dissed doc wrote: »

From Q3 2015 germany extended an open invitation to (as per their own estimates) around 800,000+ refugees, which they then in the past week want to distribute to their fellow EU countries.

Germany did not issue any open invitation. And the 800,000 comment referred to applicants not refugees (40% of applicants are from "safe" countries and these have almost zero chance of gaining refugee status in any EU country).

And the plan to re-distribute the migrants, applies to migrants in Italy, Greece and Hungary, not to any in Germany.

gobsh!te

oscarBravo wrote: »

We're not broke.

Ireland is struggling. Hence all the extra taxes on water and property, and the cutbacks.
We can do without being charitable.

Are we the guy at the bar with no money buying a round of drinks to go home to his family penniless?

We have our own problems...Sorry but if you want to help, do it yourself. Organize like the people of Iceland did.

I find it truly disgusting that people claim the moral high ground in pushing for the state to do something when they have every opportunity to help a migrant themselves or as part of an initiative in the town/city.

How much do you care? Enough to post about it on Boards.ie or enough to raise money and get people here on your own back?

I think we both know the answer to that

oscarBravo

gobsh!te wrote: »

Ireland is struggling. Hence all the extra taxes on water and property, and the cutbacks.

You're making precisely the same mistake as RDM_83 again: you're arguing that the fact that we've needed to make fiscal corrections to address a deficit means that we're broke. We're not.

We can do without being charitable.

That's a truism that, if adhered to by everyone, would mean the end of charity.

Are we the guy at the bar with no money buying a round of drinks to go home to his family penniless?

No.

We have our own problems...

Yes. Everyone has problems. The idea that other people's problems are less important than our problems, even if they are drastically more severe than our problems, is called "selfishness".

Sorry but if you want to help, do it yourself. Organize like the people of Iceland did.

I find it truly disgusting that people claim the moral high ground in pushing for the state to do something when they have every opportunity to help a migrant themselves or as part of an initiative in the town/city.

How much do you care? Enough to post about it on Boards.ie or enough to raise money and get people here on your own back?

I think we both know the answer to that

Well, one of us does.

gobsh!te

oscarBravo wrote: »

You're making precisely the same mistake as RDM_83 again: you're arguing that the fact that we've needed to make fiscal corrections to address a deficit means that we're broke. ..................... Well, one of us does.

Ah ok I got it...then Greece is not broke either.....You must like Paul Krugman....ha


Glad to hear you took some Syrians into your own home....That is worthy I agree.

johnnyskeleton

gobsh!te wrote: »

Ah ok I got it...then Greece is not broke either.....You must like Paul Krugman....ha


Glad to hear you took some Syrians into your own home....That is worthy I agree.

Mod Note:

Please read the charter before posting again. This kind of flippant remark is not welcome in the forum.

You made the assertion that the Country was broke and could not afford to take in any Syrians. OB made the point that despite the budget deficit, we were not "broke" and could still exercise a level of charity.

You have both set out your positions. If there are empirical data sources to back up or contradict either point of view lets have them. Or if there are further logical arguments to be teased out go right ahead. But lets not resort to sarcasm and snide remarks.

gobsh!te

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Mod Note:

Please read the charter before posting again. This kind of flippant remark is not welcome in the forum.

You made the assertion that the Country was broke and could not afford to take in any Syrians. OB made the point that despite the budget deficit, we were not "broke" and could still exercise a level of charity.

You have both set out your positions. If there are empirical data sources to back up or contradict either point of view lets have them. Or if there are further logical arguments to be teased out go right ahead. But lets not resort to sarcasm and snide remarks.

I may disagree with someone on what the state should do but I do not have an issue with anyone that privately wants to support a refugee in their own home. This is not sarcasm. People are doing it in Iceland. If oscarBravo is doing so then I commend him. If not, then I misunderstood his previous post.

dissed doc

View wrote: »

Germany did not issue any open invitation. And the 800,000 comment referred to applicants not refugees (40% of applicants are from "safe" countries and these have almost zero chance of gaining refugee status in any EU country).

And the plan to re-distribute the migrants, applies to migrants in Italy, Greece and Hungary, not to any in Germany.

Germany did very much issue an open invitation, and you can read about it here in the Spiegel: http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/refugee-policy-of-chancellor-merkel-divides-europe-a-1053603.html

We can do it. That's the message Chancellor Angela Merkel has been giving her country ever since she pledged in late August to provide refuge to anyone coming from Syria in addition to others seeking protection from violence and warfare.

You can get more if you read the newspapers from a few weeks ago as well. Merkel issued an open invitation publicly that Germany can take in as many as was needed. There was no reference to it being applicants or arrivals. It was a blanket invitation that they will be welcomed. At the time, they estimated around 800,000. They also heavily criticised Hungary for controlling the EU/Schengen border to prevent uncontrolled numbers of people, numbering at the time 5000 a day (around 2 million per year at that rate) into the EU.

Later, they decided to copy Hungary, and they pushed the other EU countries to accept the refugees in mandatory quotas, despite protest from the elected governments. That is on the news yesterday and today.

It is 120,000 now. What happens when it becomes 1,200,000 in a few months.

Correction: it is actually around 1,000,000 expected in Germany this year, according to the Spiegel, in that article.

View

dissed doc wrote: »

Germany did very much issue an open invitation, and you can read about it here in the Spiegel: http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/refugee-policy-of-chancellor-merkel-divides-europe-a-1053603.html

We can do it. That's the message Chancellor Angela Merkel has been giving her country ever since she pledged in late August to provide refuge to anyone coming from Syria in addition to others seeking protection from violence and warfare.

You can get more if you read the newspapers from a few weeks ago as well. Merkel issued an open invitation publicly that Germany can take in as many as was needed. There was no reference to it being applicants or arrivals. It was a blanket invitation that they will be welcomed. At the time, they estimated around 800,000. They also heavily criticised Hungary for controlling the EU/Schengen border to prevent uncontrolled numbers of people, numbering at the time 5000 a day (around 2 million per year at that rate) into the EU.

Later, they decided to copy Hungary, and they pushed the other EU countries to accept the refugees in mandatory quotas, despite protest from the elected governments. That is on the news yesterday and today.

It is 120,000 now. What happens when it becomes 1,200,000 in a few months.

Correction: it is actually around 1,000,000 expected in Germany this year, according to the Spiegel, in that article.

Merkel responded to a question about migrants from Syria and stated the official position agreed by ALL EU leaders, namely that applicants from Syria (and Eritrea) are priority cases for processing and that, as the people concerned are fleeing war zones, they would in most cases be entitled to refugee (or subsidary protection) status in Germany (and, indeed, any other country applying UN rules).

That was a statement of both an official EU position and the obvious. It wasn't an "open invitation" to please come to Germany.

And the Federal Government there reckoned they'd get 800,000 applications this year. That's applications for asylum, not for the number granted asylum (and as it is estimated that 40%+ are coming from countries deemed safe, those applicants will have little to no chance of success). They were under the 200,000 mark at the end of Q2 this year, so it remains to be seen how the figures pan out as winter rolls in.

dissed doc

View wrote: »

Merkel responded to a question about migrants from Syria and stated the official position agreed by ALL EU leaders, namely that applicants from Syria (and Eritrea) are priority cases for processing and that, as the people concerned are fleeing war zones, they would in most cases be entitled to refugee (or subsidary protection) status in Germany (and, indeed, any other country applying UN rules).

That was a statement of both an official EU position and the obvious. It wasn't an "open invitation" to please come to Germany.

And the Federal Government there reckoned they'd get 800,000 applications this year. That's applications for asylum, not for the number granted asylum (and as it is estimated that 40%+ are coming from countries deemed safe, those applicants will have little to no chance of success). They were under the 200,000 mark at the end of Q2 this year, so it remains to be seen how the figures pan out as winter rolls in.

1. No, you are completely making that up. Read the article, read the news. Every german news outlet has been reporting on her solo run and the impact in Germany of her invitation for unlimited refugees. That is simply the reality, open up FAZ, SDZ now. Are they all making it up?

2. There was absolutely no EU position being referred to. Because even still at 31.08.2015, Merkel wanted a unified EU position, but chose to make hger invitation anyway. Trampling over the EU, from the beginning:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-08-31/merkel-says-eu-failure-to-share-refugees-threatens-open-borders

And the EU position was not the basis for it, because the EU summit only took place a few days ago in mid-September, linked in Bloomberg!!! And you know this, because it was also on every newspaper.

You wrote "

That was a statement of both an official EU position and the obvious. It wasn't an "open invitation" to please come to Germany."

- unless Merkel had a time machine, she could not have giving the EU statement in August, when the summit took place in September
- adding please is an exaggeration by you.
- if there was no open invitation, why is every German newspaper now discussing her open invitation. Because she did, do a solo run, without any EU policy, and trampled over her own political system and the EU to do it. And now pushed quotes on countries that do not want her authority over theirs.

dissed doc

The Spectator> http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9628872/merkels-big-gesture-on-syrian-refugees-will-lead-to-many-more-deaths-at-sea/
- any Syrian that reaches Germany can claim asylum. That is not reaches the EU, or make an application. That is: get to Germany, get asylum. That is what she said, that is what is being reported.

In doing so, she opened up automatic settlement rights to what is now estimated in Germany as around 1000000 claims for asylum, as per her directive at the beginning of September, weeks before the EU summit.

If Ireland gave out a million passports to refugees tomorrow, would it be fair for other EU countries to complain? Yes I think so.

gobsh!te

Merkel is breaking the EU law doing this.

It is an absolute disgrace that the media (minus the local media) are not reporting the rapes that migrants have committed in the past few months....It's like Rotherham in England all over again.

johnnyskeleton

gobsh!te wrote: »

Merkel is breaking the EU law doing this.

It is an absolute disgrace that the media (minus the local media) are not reporting the rapes that migrants have committed in the past few months....It's like Rotherham in England all over again.

Mod note:

You were warned about this kind of thing in the other thread, and your solution is to just start posting it in his thread where it is even less on topic. Simply asserting something is not debate, and asserting that the media are covering up secret rapes by Muslims is a racist conspiracy theory. Even if it were true, it doesnt belong on this thread. If you continue to ignore warnings you will be banned.

creeper1

It will be in excess of 1 million asylum applications in Europe next year.

In theory those who fail to get asylum could be returned home but in reality due to appeals and bureaucracy this almost never happens.

All a migrant need do is destroy their passport and their home country need not take them back.

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-33849593