HF Vertical Antenna,

micko45

Hi All,

I am interested in getting a more suitable antenna for my station. Currently i have a G5VR and a Discone but i am not happy with the G5VR, it not up to the required height (I have it at 6 meters) and its very close to the house which could explain why I never pick up Asian/US stations. It is rubbish on 20/17 meters which i am interested in but performs well on 40/80 for Eastern Europe.

So for better recepiton for the limited space I have i am thinking about a Vertical but have no idea where/what to look at. I am currently doing the research and on The ARRL web site (http://www.arrl.org/no-free-lunch) it's saying to get the best performance for a vertical I should have radials attached (A lot of them to have the best effect). I was hoping to bolt it to the gable side of my house as high as possible. On ebay you see a lot of Verticals saying "Radial free" but are these a waste of money or will they be better than my poorly set up G5VR.

Basically i am interested in digital modes on 40 - 17m.

I am doing the hard work and learning about this topic but calling on your experience can you suggest something that you may have used in your station, I have a budget of up to 150 euros.
What do you think?

thelordgod

micko45 wrote: »

Hi All,

I am interested in getting a more suitable antenna for my station. Currently i have a G5VR and a Discone but i am not happy with the G5VR, it not up to the required height (I have it at 6 meters) and its very close to the house which could explain why I never pick up Asian/US stations. It is rubbish on 20/17 meters which i am interested in but performs well on 40/80 for Eastern Europe.

So for better recepiton for the limited space I have i am thinking about a Vertical but have no idea where/what to look at. I am currently doing the research and on The ARRL web site (http://www.arrl.org/no-free-lunch) it's saying to get the best performance for a vertical I should have radials attached (A lot of them to have the best effect). I was hoping to bolt it to the gable side of my house as high as possible. On ebay you see a lot of Verticals saying "Radial free" but are these a waste of money or will they be better than my poorly set up G5VR.

Basically i am interested in digital modes on 40 - 17m.

I am doing the hard work and learning about this topic but calling on your experience can you suggest something that you may have used in your station, I have a budget of up to 150 euros.
What do you think?

Even though the g5rv is a compromise antenna you should be able to work the states with it. I have a half size version and have worked over 120 countries with it. Its not brilliant on 17/15m but I've still made some good contacts with it on those bands. I made a dipole for 15m which is around 4 S-points better but its noisier too. What orientation is your antenna? Mine is north-south. It was working fine at 18ft but its now around 27ft at the centre. I haven't tried a vertical HF antenna but I believe that you need at least a dozen radials to be effective.

Fuzzy Clam

A vertical antenna will give different results due to the lower angle of radiation. May be better for further distance.
A Hy-Gain vertical antenna can be mounted on the ground or on a pole. If pole mounted, you can use the guy wires as ground radials.
I did an A/B test with a ground mounted Hy-Gain with 6 radials and a dipole cut to frequency. The results, checked on an SDR in Holland, showed the dipole was slightly better.

micko45

thelordgod wrote: »

What orientation is your antenna? Mine is north-south. .

Mine is, end to end, East to West, does this matter? But it's completely over shadowed on one side by my house. Did you get much improvement by raising the height?

Last night tried to see how far i could push a 5 watt signal on my G5VR using psk31 so using pskreporter.info i could see how far my signal got, I got a few (2) sights in the states, and a lot more in East Europe, i was surprised as I couldn't hear anything from the states.

I will try to raise it up a bit more at the weekend and see if it makes a difference.

micko45

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

The results, checked on an SDR in Holland, showed the dipole was slightly better.

Interesting, good idea about the SDR to check it, I will cut a dipole for 20 meters when i get some time and compare it to the g5rv. Came across a design called a double bazooka using coax that i liked.

What type of cable did you use for yours?

Fuzzy Clam

micko45 wrote: »

Interesting, good idea about the SDR to check it, I will cut a dipole for 20 meters when i get some time and compare it to the g5rv. Came across a design called a double bazooka using coax that i liked.

What type of cable did you use for yours?

RG213 into (I think) a 1:1 balun.

thelordgod

The antenna is not omni-directional and the radiation pattern will be different on each band - and the States must be between lobes. If you switch it to N-S it should make a big difference. I didnt notice much difference by raising it - its difficult to know as conditions are different every day. I would switch the antenna around before spending money! PSK reporter is not always accurate - I often had contacts in the states and further afield without showing up on the map but if you are getting spotted with the 5 watts then its working fine. If you cant get the antenna N-S just change it by 45 degrees or whatever you can. I will need to do it myself to work Greenland as I never can hear any station from there properly as it is directly in line with the direction of my antenna.

Edit: I just had a re-read of your first post and you said that the antenna was rubbish on 20m - this should definitely not be the case and you should even have more gain over a dipole on this band. Make sure the ladder line is vertical and not touching anything metal. The ladder line is part of the antenna. I put a choke at the bottom of my ladder line (around 21ft of coax wrapped around a flower pot) to stop computer interference going back up into the antenna (and into the rig). My mouse used to stop working every time I hit the ptt on 20m but this cured it.

micko45

thelordgod wrote: »

If you switch it to N-S it should make a big difference.

I wouldn't have the room to move the G5RV to N-S, but i could cut a 20m dipole (around 35') and put it N-S it at the end of the garden, that could work.

thelordgod wrote: »

Make sure the ladder line is vertical and not touching anything metal.

I think this is the problem with it not being high enough, about 10 -12 feet of the ladder line is on the ground.

thelordgod

The ladder line wont work well on the ground. A dipole is probably the way to go. The half size G5RV has a shorter ladder line (around 16.5 feet) - if you are not bothered with 80m then you could shorter your antenna. It would probably be easier to change orientation if it was shorter.

Another wire antenna that is supposed to be good is here :

hamcall.net/7bandocf.html

It's 2 lengths of wire with a 4:1 balun. There is a 4 band version which should suit your needs and no tuner is needed. I have plans to make the 7 band version - I have the wire - just need to find a toroid to make the balun with.

orm0nd

would end fed (either mono or multi band ) be an option ? they work quite well and can be configured in many different ways

some commercial versions available

http://www.hyendcompany.nl/antenna/multiband_100_watt

http://www.parelectronics.com/end-fedz.php

but not too hard to home brew

micko45

orm0nd wrote: »

would end fed (either mono or multi band ) be an option ?

Yes in the long term for me this would be something to look at, but from what i read i have to get a external antenna tuner, and figure out the best way to earth the antenna. My IC-736 has an internal atu and seems that this could be an issue with an end fed antenna, it fails on 15m on my G5.

So in the short term i ordered a half size G5RV and will put it up in place of my full size one so the ladder line is fully up in the air. I will then cut (or replace the wires) on the full size one into a 20m dipole and turn it 90 degrees, I am interetsted to see what the difference will be in reception.

thelordgod

micko45 wrote: »

Yes in the long term for me this would be something to look at, but from what i read i have to get a external antenna tuner, and figure out the best way to earth the antenna. My IC-736 has an internal atu and seems that this could be an issue with an end fed antenna, it fails on 15m on my G5.

So in the short term i ordered a half size G5RV and will put it up in place of my full size one so the ladder line is fully up in the air. I will then cut (or replace the wires) on the full size one into a 20m dipole and turn it 90 degrees, I am interetsted to see what the difference will be in reception.

You should have just cut the existing antenna. You still won't get 17m with your internal atu as the swr will still be too high to manage. You will do it with a manual tuner but obviously there will be high losses. Its me that's selling the stuff on done deal although it should be collected today or tomorrow. A tuner won't make a bad antenna any better - it just allows you to use it without blowing the innards of your rig.

thelordgod

micko45 wrote: »

Yes in the long term for me this would be something to look at, but from what i read i have to get a external antenna tuner, and figure out the best way to earth the antenna. My IC-736 has an internal atu and seems that this could be an issue with an end fed antenna, it fails on 15m on my G5.

So in the short term i ordered a half size G5RV and will put it up in place of my full size one so the ladder line is fully up in the air. I will then cut (or replace the wires) on the full size one into a 20m dipole and turn it 90 degrees, I am interetsted to see what the difference will be in reception.

You should have just cut the existing antenna. You still won't get 17m with your internal atu as the swr will still be too high to manage. You will do it with a manual tuner but obviously there will be high losses. Its me that's selling the stuff on adverts although it should be collected today or tomorrow. A tuner won't make a bad antenna any better - it just allows you to use it without blowing the innards of your rig.

Edit: stuff is now sold and collected.

martinedwards

I have a full sized G5RV and a 1/2 sized one.

the 1/2 size SINGS on 20 and 10m the full size best on 40m

I've worked New Zealand and Australia on both, Japan and Malaysia on the 1/2 and all but 4 US states.

I have both mounted with the feedpoint in the corner of a 90 degree setup.

Try switching your orientation.

micko45

martinedwards wrote: »

the 1/2 size SINGS on 20 and 10m the full size best on 40m

I got my 1/2 size one up over the weekend, and seems to see a lot more on 20m that the full size one.

I also quickly put together a 15m dipole and although its not up high, 15 feet, i managed to pick up my first non EU contact over psk31

thelordgod

micko45 wrote: »

I got my 1/2 size one up over the weekend, and seems to see a lot more on 20m that the full size one.

I also quickly put together a 15m dipole and although its not up high, 15 feet, i managed to pick up my first non EU contact over psk31

It gets easier. I remember that it took me around 2 weeks to work the states. Now I can do it most days if conditions allow. I also remember talking to a dutch op who hadn't managed it after 3 months of trying. Maybe your location is not favourable - some stay on cw only because of the noise in built up areas.

That little bit of satisfaction when you achieve something new makes it all worthwhile.