Under 21 hurling 2015

QuinDixie

thinkstoomuch1 wrote: »

Bookies had clare eleven to four waterford one to three on with a four point spread


Waterford can't handle favourite tags and their under twenty one record two years in row as favourite is poor
Last year huge favourite at home to cork the lost also

not much difference between minors for clare and waterford in 2012 and 2013.
the 2012 minor clare team were pretty high standard.

thinkstoomuch1

QuinDixie wrote: »

not much difference between minors for clare and waterford in 2012 and 2013.
the 2012 minor clare team were pretty high standard.

I don't dispute that but with lot more senior and huge hype regards this waterford team bookies had them one to three


Even malonry called waterford the golden bunch he's exact words in the post match interview
The system clare had was imo better coached, better cohesion, better telephaty between players and movement in to space and some of the scoring was outstanding by clare


Waterford played a similar system to the senior set up and that's twice now in three days it was beaten

PTH2009

thinkstoomuch1 wrote: »

I don't dispute that but with lot more senior and huge hype regards this waterford team bookies had them one to three


Even malonry called waterford the golden bunch he's exact words in the post match interview
The system clare had was imo better coached, better cohesion, better telephaty between players and movement in to space and some of the scoring was outstanding by clare


Waterford played a similar system to the senior set up and that's twice now in three days it was beaten

Dublin will win in the senior qf

skaface

PTH2009 wrote: »

Dublin will win in the senior qf

We'll see about that..
Lot of tired legs out there tonight, but we'll done
to Clare, best of luck in the Final.

thinkstoomuch1

PTH2009 wrote: »

Dublin will win in the senior qf

While tonight is a bit of a eye opener in it shows again waterford don't do favourite tags well I still think ye will beat Dublin but this is huge set back for the confidence of young lads with Croker looming and kk waiting
Waterford won minor all ireland but having lost two games that year and last two years loosing games expected win this grade there's questions marks over some lads not being as great as they were made out to be

I think ye will beat Dublin there not great

QuinDixie

thinkstoomuch1 wrote: »

I don't dispute that but with lot more senior and huge hype regards this waterford team bookies had them one to three


Even malonry called waterford the golden bunch he's exact words in the post match interview
The system clare had was imo better coached, better cohesion, better telephaty between players and movement in to space and some of the scoring was outstanding by clare


Waterford played a similar system to the senior set up and that's twice now in three days it was beaten

Maloney just saying what managers say. When tipp won last sunday OShea said after that Waterford were the coming team who would win in the future.
Do you think he really believes that, he was just talking cliches.

Teams like Waterford do not need a system, last Sunday and tonight shows they need forwards who can hurl, not athletes.

Clareman

QuinDixie wrote: »

Maloney just saying what managers say. When tipp won last sunday OShea said after that Waterford were the coming team who would win in the future.
Do you think he really believes that, he was just talking cliches.

Teams like Waterford do not need a system, last Sunday and tonight shows they need forwards who can hurl, not athletes.

I don't know that Maloney was saying what managers say, to recgonise the opponents like he did was refreshing, Duggan coming out and saying that they wanted to give back to the people of the county after the seniors was great, no games, no bullsh!t, just telling it like it is.

thinkstoomuch1

QuinDixie wrote: »

Maloney just saying what managers say. When tipp won last sunday OShea said after that Waterford were the coming team who would win in the future.
Do you think he really believes that, he was just talking cliches.

Teams like Waterford do not need a system, last Sunday and tonight shows they need forwards who can hurl, not athletes.

I think man for man waterford had better players even clare poster said clare thread expected loose hugely


We must remember the huge huge hype waterford have also at senior one paper in may said from pauper to princes yes that line and considering most panel involved here malonry was right and being honest this waterford team were thought of as the golden generation, they were Maloney words, and also had huge advantage having played a game


Athletes and hurling isn't enough you need a system just like system no good with out hurling and fitness



Waterford system is a problem imo in too defence orientation with no cohesion to link defence to attack just like the senior


Just look at clare the support runners and the system was brilliant


I said two weeks ago clare would beat waterford at senior as there system is more fluent and they system more refined than waterford



The under twenty one game imo showed clare system is better and both they and waterford play similar to the senior style imo

Clareman

Man for man, Waterford were a far better team, considering Clare had pretty much a brand new team, Waterford were right to be considered favourites.

Clare under 21s have a great, simple system. You get the ball and either hit the ball or pass the ball to someone looking for it, if you lose the ball or are defending you crowd the opponent player until you get the ball or they have to hit it at which point it becomes a contest.

By the way, ground hurling is gone with the Clare defensive strategy, the worst thing to happen when there's a bunch of Clare players around the ball is the ball to come free.

QuinDixie

thinkstoomuch1 wrote: »

I think man for man waterford had better players even clare poster said clare thread expected loose hugely


We must remember the huge huge hype waterford have also at senior one paper in may said from pauper to princes yes that line and considering most panel involved here malonry was right and being honest this waterford team were thought of as the golden generation and also had huge advantage having played a game


Athletes and hurling isn't enough you need a system just like system no good with out hurling and fitness



Waterford system is a problem imo in too defence orientation with no cohesion to link defence to attack just like the senior


Just look at clare the support runners and the system was brilliant


I said two weeks ago clare would beat waterford at senior as there system is more fluent and they system more refined than waterford



The under twenty one game imo showed clare system is better and both they and waterford play similar to the senior style imo

you are reading too much into systems.
If waterford had better forwards last sunday they would have won, I watched it twice and there is at least 4 very poor wides by Waterford in the 2nd half.
same with Clare sat. against Cork, they would have won that but for poor forward play.
that is why Clare and Waterford lost, you need forwards or you need luck.

Tonight Clare forwards turned it on, Duggan especially but also Galvin. Some lovely points taken.

I am sure this is a good U 21 Waterford team, but are they any better than Tipp, Lim or Clare this year. I doubt it.

thinkstoomuch1

Clareman wrote: »

Man for man, Waterford were a far better team, considering Clare had pretty much a brand new team, Waterford were right to be considered favourites.

Clare under 21s have a great, simple system. You get the ball and either hit the ball or pass the ball to someone looking for it, if you lose the ball or are defending you crowd the opponent player until you get the ball or they have to hit it at which point it becomes a contest.

By the way, ground hurling is gone with the Clare defensive strategy, the worst thing to happen when there's a bunch of Clare players around the ball is the ball to come free.

Who would you rather limerick or tipp
Tippeary feel over the last two games they owe ye one so limerick would be better but if they beat tippeary they will be a serious opponent in a munster final

Either opponent it should be a cracking final

Moggy13

thinkstoomuch1 wrote: »

I think man for man waterford had better players even clare poster said clare thread expected loose hugely


We must remember the huge huge hype waterford have also at senior one paper in may said from pauper to princes yes that line and considering most panel involved here malonry was right and being honest this waterford team were thought of as the golden generation, they were Maloney words, and also had huge advantage having played a game


Athletes and hurling isn't enough you need a system just like system no good with out hurling and fitness



Waterford system is a problem imo in too defence orientation with no cohesion to link defence to attack just like the senior


Just look at clare the support runners and the system was brilliant


I said two weeks ago clare would beat waterford at senior as there system is more fluent and they system more refined than waterford



The under twenty one game imo showed clare system is better and both they and waterford play similar to the senior style imo

You 'still' don't get that the hype around Waterford is external. Nobody inside the Senior or U21 camp think this way, too many bad past experiences to think otherwise.

I don't think the U21s needed to play a sweeper system tonight and I was seriously disappointed that they didn't play more offensively in the second half, when the need was greatest.

Clare looked as if they wanted it more, which is really dismaying to see from a Waterford perspective.

thinkstoomuch1

QuinDixie wrote: »

you are reading too much into systems.
If waterford had better forwards last sunday they would have won, I watched it twice and there is at least 4 very poor wides by Waterford in the 2nd half.
same with Clare sat. against Cork, they would have won that but for poor forward play.
that is why Clare and Waterford lost, you need forwards or you need luck.

Tonight Clare forwards turned it on, Duggan especially but also Galvin. Some lovely points taken.

I am sure this is a good U 21 Waterford team, but are they any better than Tipp, Lim or Clare this year. I doubt it.

I disagree


In reference to cork look at cork in munster to now
Concession of three goals in one game to no goals in two games is mainly done to cork completely change of the system with Ellis as sweeper in full back line cadogan playing with horgan half forward line Lawton midfield dropping deep and two man full forward line
Clare had lot wides so too did cork


Cork new system still work in progress But it's allowed cork hurling to flourish in we always had hurling bit we need space



We won't win all Ireland this year but system change means we still in the championship


Waterford deserves to loose the senior in tippeary had wides but fourteen to waterford nine scores from play meant better more fluent team won
Waterford threw the kitchen sink at tipp yet tipp always had enough and I feel there's more in tipperary's

Cork had forward and luck in all ireland final two years ago but no system and clare fully exposed cork the last day
Forwards are no good unless you have a system to link defence and attack
Cork always had forwards
Kerry always had forwards in football but had to get defensive shape just like Dublin now
Free style all out pure hurling is gone imo now days

thinkstoomuch1

Moggy13 wrote: »

You 'still' don't get that the hype around Waterford is external. Nobody inside the Senior or U21 camp think this way, too many bad past experiences to think otherwise.

I don't think the U21s needed to play a sweeper system tonight and I was seriously disappointed that they didn't play more offensively in the second half, when the need was greatest.

Clare looked as if they wanted it more, which is really dismaying to see from a Waterford perspective.

Fair enough but hype does it always seep in in kerry Michael Quirke even alludes to it kerry senior football team being huge favourite the ist day and Cork given no chance
He said before players work in communities so it does at times seep in
We often seen huge favourite under twenty hurling and football loose games

keeponhurling

I think there's not much between those teams.
Too many of the Waterford lads played a Munster senior final only 3 days ago, could well have been the difference.

Things like that catch up with you

thinkstoomuch1

keeponhurling wrote: »

I think there's not much between those teams.
Too many of the Waterford lads played a Munster senior final only 3 days ago, could well have been the difference.

Things like that catch up with you

Yes games had effect but it's not main reason they lost
Clare over came the same problems the last three years
The difference was clare tactics wise were much better imo and the hype as a waterford posters said clare thread got to the players

QuinDixie

thinkstoomuch1 wrote: »

I disagree


In reference to cork look at cork in munster to now
Concession of three goals in one game to no goals in two games is mainly done to cork completely change of the system with Ellis as sweeper in full back line cadogan playing with horgan half forward line Lawton midfield dropping deep and two man full forward line
Clare had lot wides so too did cork


Cork new system still work in progress But it's allowed cork hurling to flourish in we always had hurling bit we need space



We won't win all Ireland this year but system change means we still in the championship


Waterford deserves to loose the senior in tippeary had wides but fourteen to waterford nine scores from play meant better more fluent team won
Waterford threw the kitchen sink at tipp yet tipp always had enough and I feel there's more in tipperary's

Cork had forward and luck in all ireland final two years ago but no system and clare fully exposed cork the last day
Forwards are no good unless you have a system to link defence and attack
Cork always had forwards
Kerry always had forwards in football but had to get defensive shape just like Dublin now
Free style all out pure hurling is gone imo now days

Cork won Sat. because both teams thought it was a non contact game. Cork are poor and Tipp will love to get them in the semi.
Forget 2013, it was a year where KK and Tipp were wrecked from 4 years of hurling.

thinkstoomuch1

QuinDixie wrote: »

Cork won Sat. because both teams thought it was a non contact game. Cork are poor and Tipp will love to get them in the semi.
Forget 2013, it was a year where KK and Tipp were wrecked from 4 years of hurling.

But that my point regards two years ago cork had luck and it still wasn't enough

You need a system


I don't know where your coming up with this non contact cork stuff actually you watch it you will find Ellis cahalane copper and Murphy tenacious tackling forced huge turn overs with Lawton while Cronin Harnedy physics presence caused clare huge problem up front
Walsh was power house at half back dominated conlon and got a point
Cork relished the physics battle Saturday
Your points there imo has no logic on the game itself

Moggy13

thinkstoomuch1 wrote: »

Fair enough but hype does it always seep in in kerry Michael Quirke even alludes to it kerry senior football team being huge favourite the ist day and Cork given no chance
He said before players work in communities so it does at times seep in
We often seen huge favourite under twenty hurling and football loose games

Nothing to do with hype. Waterford got it wrong on the night, bad decision making coupled with Clare's clever use of possession and overall play meant they won. Duggan got the freedom of Ennis and it should have been picked up on the Waterford line straight away. Fair play to Clare though, they hurled well!

thinkstoomuch1

Moggy13 wrote: »

Nothing to do with hype. Waterford got it wrong on the night, bad decision making coupled with Clare's clever use of possession and overall play meant they won. Duggan got the freedom of Ennis and it should have been picked up on the Waterford line straight away. Fair play to Clare though, they hurled well!

I don't agree as this is the second year most this panel suffered a defeat in a game they were huge favourite to win
They were one to three on with a four point spread
Last year no one expected them to loose to cork in waterford but they did
Not many clare fans even clare thread expected clare to win
I felt like many Cork men waterford would win after destroying cork

QuinDixie

thinkstoomuch1 wrote: »

But that my point regards two years ago cork had luck and it still wasn't enough

You need a system


I don't know where your coming up with this non contact cork stuff actually you watch it you will find Ellis cahalane copper and Murphy tenacious tackling forced huge turn overs with Lawton while Cronin Harnedy physics presence caused clare huge problem up front
Walsh was power house at half back dominated conlon and got a point
Cork relished the physics battle Saturday
Your points there imo has no logic on the game itself

That game sat. had very little bite, which is surprising considering 2013. Clare should have won that game and eddie Brennan was right on the sunday Game, when he said Cody would be delighted Clare are gone.
Cork are an average team and no tactic is going to help them beat Tipp and certainly not Kilkenny.

We cannot be surprised by Cork being poor at senior, underage they have been poor for many years.

thinkstoomuch1

QuinDixie wrote: »

That game sat. had very little bite, which is surprising considering 2013. Clare should have won that game and eddie Brennan was right on the sunday Game, when he said Cody would be delighted Clare are gone.
Cork are an average team and no tactic is going to help them beat Tipp and certainly not Kilkenny.

We cannot be surprised by Cork being poor at senior, underage they have been poor for many years.

I'd agree cork won't even consider kk or tipp in Galway huge challenge but at the same time have even chance to win


Point about cork being average is correct in can't go man man but playing system covers full back line consider we haven't had one since the great great rock so it imo shows hurling is no good in system can improve team no end and Cork have forwards can score will go toe toe any team problem was defence


I agree clare would been threat to kk
Conditions were slippery cork game yet cork showed brilliant skill particular horgan points


Were kind going off topic here so back to the under twenty one game

Moggy13

thinkstoomuch1 wrote: »

I don't agree as this is the second year most this panel suffered a defeat in a game they were huge favourite to win
They were one to three on with a four point spread
Last year no one expected them to loose to cork in waterford but they did
Not many clare fans even clare thread expected clare to win
I felt like many Cork men waterford would win after destroying cork

I'm not sure you quite understand the U21 setup in Waterford. Last year was an absolute shambles with little or no preparation and only this year is there some semblance of preparation. We destroyed an extremely poor, physically light Cork team. Clare U21s are a much better side than Cork U21s, much more physical and skillful too.

QuinDixie

Moggy13 wrote: »

I'm not sure you quite understand the U21 setup in Waterford. Last year was an absolute shambles with little or no preparation and only this year is there some semblance of preparation. We destroyed an extremely poor, physically light Cork team. Clare U21s are a much better side than Cork U21s, much more physical and skillful too.

I expect waterford and Limerick to be favourites in 2016,2017 munster U 21 championship.
They both have been strong minors in 2013,2014.

QuinDixie

QuinDixie wrote: »

That game sat. had very little bite, which is surprising considering 2013. Clare should have won that game and eddie Brennan was right on the sunday Game, when he said Cody would be delighted Clare are gone.
Cork are an average team and no tactic is going to help them beat Tipp and certainly not Kilkenny.

We cannot be surprised by Cork being poor at senior, underage they have been poor for many years.

Cork have some lovely hurlers but they have what Graeme Souness would describe as 'ideal son in laws'. No nastiness or cynicism about them. They need the Sully and Pat Mulcahy type of lads back. Even Eoin Cadogan is a huge loss to them in that regard because they lack leaders and enforcers. Aidan Walsh could yet develop into a special leader for them tbf. They have hurlers that can rack up scores and i think they wont fear either Galway or Tipp to be honest but barring a miracle, they wont win Liam this year. They need to take a good long hard luck at their structures. They are not a million miles off to be honest because they have brilliant sticksmen, but they need bigger personalities in that dressing room.

The county board seem to be burying their head in the sand with regards to their underage results. That said their minors were probably unlucky against Limerick

thinkstoomuch1

QuinDixie wrote: »

I expect waterford and Limerick to be favourites in 2016,2017 munster U 21 championship.
They both have been strong minors in 2013,2014.

Waterford proved last two years this grade surely don't deal expectations well this grade and while credit due all ireland minor champions waterford lost two games that year and needed extra time against one worse cork coached team minor in a while
Limerick will be the real dangers next year imo

QuinDixie

Limerick are 7/4 tomorrow.
They are at home, have a nice team and some of the tipp team will have one eye on the Tyrone game.
Limerick for me would be favourites for tomorrow.

QuinDixie

QuinDixie wrote: »

Limerick are 7/4 tomorrow.
They are at home, have a nice team and some of the tipp team will have one eye on the Tyrone game.
Limerick for me would be favourites for tomorrow.

Only 1 footballer starts - Colin O'Riordan - and Colin doesnt do one eye on the next game. It will be a very close game tomorrow night but i think we might be just that bit further along the line.

thinkstoomuch1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Only 1 footballer starts - Colin O'Riordan - and Colin doesnt do one eye on the next game. It will be a very close game tomorrow night but i think we might be just that bit further along the line.

What is McCarthy like at half forward

QuinDixie

Deleted User wrote: »

Only 1 footballer starts - Colin O'Riordan - and Colin doesnt do one eye on the next game. It will be a very close game tomorrow night but i think we might be just that bit further along the line.

where is obrien and sean maher, are they injured or not part of it

QuinDixie

QuinDixie wrote: »

where is obrien and sean maher, are they injured or not part of it

Both injured at moment. Maher along with fellow panellist from 2012, Tom Kirwan both done their ACL recently. Mark McCarthy is also injured and has been dogged with injury since 2012 despite showing glimpses of form for the club. Same for Dylan Fitzelle. Jack Shelley seems to have disappeared off the landscape. No sign of Sean Ryan 'Rodgers' either or Kevin Slattery.

thinkstoomuch1

thinkstoomuch1 wrote: »

What is McCarthy like at half forward

Not sure what he is like at half forward but he was on fire for the Thurles harty cup team this year

thinkstoomuch1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Not sure what he is like at half forward but he was on fire for the Thurles harty cup team this year

Thanks I remember him now against ag in Kilmallock

allthedoyles

skaface wrote: »

We'll see about that..
Lot of tired legs out there tonight, but we'll done
to Clare, best of luck in the Final.

If Waterford had lots of tired legs out there tonight , why did they continuously go on solo runs in the second half and end up losing possession .
Simple things cost them the game ..

thinkstoomuch1

I'd agree with the last post

While yes the senior game had an effect i disagree it can be used really as a major effect in the defeat


Two years ago in the all ireland senior championship clare senior with lot of the under twenty one panel played two week before laois and then on the 13th July beat Wexford in extra time in a game that took lot of clare but four days later that Wednesday they played waterford in Walsh park and won a very close game by four points


Waterford this year had a gap from the cork to the tipp senior game up to the under twenty one

Clare had two senior games in two weeks in laois then week after Wexford then the under twenty one game few days after


Clare were able to win away from home as they being huge favourite just like waterford tonight but they imo had a better system effective with players played in their best positions with also imo better tactical plan unlike waterford tonight


Waterford were the better team on paper as malonry the clare coach exact words were waterford are the golden generation and he was very gracious in the win and said man for man clare on paper were not as good


Imo he was saying then if the players weren't as good as waterford on paper then the system is what won it for clare

QuinDixie

Deleted User wrote: »

Both injured at moment. Maher along with fellow panellist from 2012, Tom Kirwan both done their ACL recently. Mark McCarthy is also injured and has been dogged with injury since 2012 despite showing glimpses of form for the club. Same for Dylan Fitzelle. Jack Shelley seems to have disappeared off the landscape. No sign of Sean Ryan 'Rodgers' either or Kevin Slattery.

some good players missing, its a shame to see lads not making it due to injury.
Sean Maher and McCarthy I thought might be senior prospects in time.

dastardly00

Coverage starts at 7.15pm on TG4 tonight, throw-in at 7.30pm.

Very Bored

Come on Limerick!

Which team is the more likely winner? Don't know much about either at under 21 level.

Fireball07

Very Bored wrote: »

Come on Limerick!

Which team is the more likely winner? Don't know much about either at under 21 level.

Tipp are the favourites, as they have the bulk of the All-Ireland winning minor team of 2012. Probably favourites for the All-Ireland.


Limerick had a decent minor team in 2012 but the majority of the team is younger, made up from the Munster-winning minor teams of 2013 & 2014.

There will be some serious hurlers on show- Diarmuid Byrnes, Barry O'Connell, Cian & Ronan Lynch, Tom Morrissey, Kevin O'Brien, Dave Dempsey for Limerick- John McGrath, Tadhg Gallagher, Tomas Hamill, Michael Breen, Ronan Maher, Barry Heffernan, Stephen Cahill for Tipp... both look like very strong sides though.


Sun has just come out here in Limerick... conditions will still be very wet but let's hope we can do it.

Very Bored

Very Bored wrote: »

Come on Limerick!

Which team is the more likely winner? Don't know much about either at under 21 level.

These things are generally viewed based on who's senior more than the sum of the parts.

Clare apparently had no chance yesterday and were even a bigger price to win at HT than prematch even though they were only down 1.

I'm hoping for Limerick myself as I had a stab at the two underdogs before yesterdays game.
Limerick weren't exactly big outsiders betting wise anyway fwiw.

Very Bored

Incredible start by Limerick, I can't remember a quicker goal.

zetecescort

Very Bored wrote: »

Incredible start by Limerick, I can't remember a quicker goal.

How long did it take KK to score against WX?

Very Bored

Given the start, the shooting and quality in general has been shocking tbh.

Very Bored

zetecescort wrote: »

How long did it take KK to score against WX?

Within about a minute I think, certainly not within 15 seconds.

nice_guy80

Much less intense than yesterday

Ompala

Very poor game so far

Very Bored

Yer man in the "crowd" dressed up like he's at Croke Park in September is the highlight of the first half so far.

Limestone Cowboy

Tipp are playing brutal, was expecting much better from them. Some bad wides from Limerick too.

Very Bored

One point after 20 minutes...

Who got Tipp's second point?

zetecescort

only half watching it but any mention of a breeze or anything to explain the one sidedness of the game?