What suckler system is making money

onyerbikepat

Sam Kade wrote: »

I read an article a few years ago where the farmer had June calving and said he was making more profit out of suckling. He weaned the calves in dec-Jan and they hit the ground running on early spring grass. He didn't have to feed too much meal to them during the winter as they were getting milk as well. I suppose it makes sense when you think about it they would be coming up to 500 kg at a year old. If you could have the calves out on grass in February you could put serious weight on them also there would be less demand for grass for the cows as they would be dry.

Plus you would be calving outdoors in fine weather, with short nights. No extra costs for sheds, straw either. A lot less problems with weaning too. If I was running 100 plus suckler cows full time, I'd give it serious consideration.

Count Mondego

onyerbikepat wrote: »

There's a strange logic in what people are saying about finishing their own weanlings. I know cattle thrive better on the farm they are born, but if it makes sense to finish the 400Kg bull weanling, why not get rid of the cows and just buy in all the 400kg bulls. It's like you could divide the farm in two, producing the 400kg weanling and finishing the animal. Which side is more profitable?
A lot of suckler farmers working of farm so keeping things simple, with less work is a big thing too.

You're tying up huge amounts of money in the purchase of the 400Kg weanling as well as being at the mart for multiple days in the year. Not to mention the chances of bringing in disease. If you have your cow producing quality stock, I think it makes better financial sense than buying the same animal for 1000-1200 and trying to get 1500 + at slaughter, that's a narrow margin. It costs nearly the same to rear a good calf - finisher as a bad one so the key is breeding quality.

Another point is that most part-time lads now would have no clue how to buy value at a mart. If you overpay on the day you buy you're phuked.

Farmer Pudsey

Miname wrote: »

Lads are mad looking for that 300-340 kilo bull the last while it's actually cheaper in most cases to go to 450kg around me anyways.

I bought these and finished them. i was just showing how easy it was to put 100+ kg on these animals after weaning. Most bulls over 400 kgs at this time of year tend to be either just below 16 months or just above same. 330kg bulls may be only 10 months old giving a finisher a chance to add 300 kgs before 16 months of age and to avail of grid pricing. Also younger bulls are morein demand for export. However in general bulls up to 400kgs if less than a year in age will sell well for export if export quality. As well lads wanting to go steer route are reluctant to squeeze bulls over 400kgs heard of a lad that specialises in buying, caterating ad selling such cattle as steers and makes a twist at it.

I know if a 450kg bull and a 330kg bull were the same price which I would buy.

ellewood

onyerbikepat wrote: »

There's a strange logic in what people are saying about finishing their own weanlings. I know cattle thrive better on the farm they are born, but if it makes sense to finish the 400Kg bull weanling, why not get rid of the cows and just buy in all the 400kg bulls. It's like you could divide the farm in two, producing the 400kg weanling and finishing the animal. Which side is more profitable?
A lot of suckler farmers working of farm so keeping things simple, with less work is a big thing too.

Because from you're own cow that 400kg bull is costing u circa E600 where as that bull in mart will cost ya E1100 + all other risks re weaning/pneumonia etc

Farrell

ellewood wrote: »

Id agree and every suckler should finish their stock lad in our dg is part of the teagasc family farm income survey each year and he sais the lad doing the survey has said for many years that the lads finishing their own stock are consistently the most profitable keep less cows and finish stock - some lads seem afraid of finishing stock tho!

But if every suckler farmer keeps their calves to beef, will we not be back to the glut of last year, especially with all the dairy beef coming on stream.

Farmer Pudsey

Farrell wrote: »

But if every suckler farmer keeps their calves to beef, will we not be back to the glut of last year, especially with all the dairy beef coming on stream.

Yes it looks like there will be a glut in 2017 again. It may well make 2014 look like a picnic as cattle numbers are rising accross europe with dairying expansion and US numbers are recovering again

ellewood

Farrell wrote: »

But if every suckler farmer keeps their calves to beef, will we not be back to the glut of last year, especially with all the dairy beef coming on stream.

Apart from what's going to be exported anyways - it's the same no to be finished just you are finishing urself
Whether I finish my 10 bulls each year or sell in mart for someone else to finish it does nt increase the no's killed
But agree when no. Of cattle to be killed increases in 2017 it will b harder alright.

cacs

thanks for that

onyerbikepat

ellewood wrote: »

Because from you're own cow that 400kg bull is costing u circa E600 where as that bull in mart will cost ya E1100 + all other risks re weaning/pneumonia etc

He may be costing you €600, but he is still worth €1100. All you are doing is moving your profit from the weanling side of thing to your finishing side.

ellewood

onyerbikepat wrote: »

He may be costing you €600, but he is still worth €1100. All you are doing is moving your profit from the weanling side of thing to your finishing side.

So which leaves more profit ?? ☺

Muckit

ellewood wrote: »

I know a lot wont agree with me but the most profitable according to the better farm programme is by far the under 16 mth old bull beef from sucklers
IMO if ya breed a good u grade bull its the only use for him, its akin to a lad with a high yielding Holstein cow leaving her off set stocked for the summer in high white grass, squeezing and storing a good u grade bull is the same if ya breed them well - feed him well and keep him flat out till he is 400kgs dead, bull calf should wean 400kgs on 01 Nov go into shed and the next time he leaves it he is going up the ramp to factory, stock the place to its potential dont keep ANY passengers, make the best silage ya can, (ya can dilute with straw for dry cows to reduce winter costs) keep a tight calving pattern with an average calving date of 15 Feb, grow as much grass as can and get cows and calves out as soon as can in spring. Heifers gone at 20 mths
Maximum output with a good handel on costs = maximum profit Simples

You make a good point regarding bull beef, but continental heifers @20mths are just getting going.

There is direct co correlation between output and net profit. Any fool can fatten cattle by pumping them with meal. the question is, is it profitable to do so? It may well be. But it's like the dairy lads claiming big milk yields and producing it with a big meal bill.

As with everything, there's a middle ground.

Farmer Pudsey

I agree with muckit alot depends on invidual farm and skill level to finish. It not just a matter of dumping the bulls in a pen and pumping with a nut and throwwing a bale of straw in front of them. 16 months bulls are the easiest cattle to go wrong compared to older cattle. The other factor is trying to get efficient weight gain etc.

onyerbikepat

ellewood wrote: »

So which leaves more profit ?? ☺

That's the big question.
I think if you have weanlings from cows with little milk but a lot of continental breeding then they can really pull ahead after weanling. The weanling from very milky cows can even go back in thrive.

Charliebull

march-April calving with turn out ASAP

NOV weaning and off to mart (lighter stock making stupid money)

cow out until december minimum,

the less shed time the cheaper the cow

all dependant on a good milky hardy shorthorn cow crossed to a terminal CH Bull

Sam Kade

Charliebull wrote: »

march-April calving with turn out ASAP

NOV weaning and off to mart (lighter stock making stupid money)

cow out until december minimum,

the less shed time the cheaper the cow

all dependant on a good milky hardy shorthorn cow crossed to a terminal CH Bull

But for how long?

Charliebull

Sam Kade wrote: »

But for how long?

they always have really, just lads were looking at the big price and not the weight to money price

_Brian

Charliebull wrote: »

march-April calving with turn out ASAP

NOV weaning and off to mart (lighter stock making stupid money)

cow out until december minimum,

the less shed time the cheaper the cow

all dependant on a good milky hardy shorthorn cow crossed to a terminal CH Bull

Cows out till December, cows round here would need to be housed from end October till April 1 (maybe even May) or they would tramp ground to pure mud. the hope would be a 4.5/5 month housing for cows but most lads budget for 6 months feed for cows.
I was speaking to two farmers this week who are still feeding suckler cows inside, one lad letting them out today/tomorrow. I'd guess they were housed for 7 months maybe 8 !

This is a good example where farming regions are so different..

Charliebull

_Brian wrote: »

Cows out till December, cows round here would need to be housed from end October till April 1 (maybe even May) or they would tramp ground to pure mud. the hope would be a 4.5/5 month housing for cows but most lads budget for 6 months feed for cows.
I was speaking to two farmers this week who are still feeding suckler cows inside, one lad letting them out today/tomorrow. I'd guess they were housed for 7 months maybe 8 !

This is a good example where farming regions are so different..

yep different for farm to farm, I aint that far from you and can manage it with a push

another option is ear mark a plot for reseeding and let them plough the ****e outa it first,

Sam Kade

_Brian wrote: »

Cows out till December, cows round here would need to be housed from end October till April 1 (maybe even May) or they would tramp ground to pure mud. the hope would be a 4.5/5 month housing for cows but most lads budget for 6 months feed for cows.
I was speaking to two farmers this week who are still feeding suckler cows inside, one lad letting them out today/tomorrow. I'd guess they were housed for 7 months maybe 8 !

This is a good example where farming regions are so different..

If I had to keep cattle in for 7 months I'd give up, cattle out here until Dec 25th last year and out again in early march.

blue5000

_Brian wrote: »

Cows out till December, cows round here would need to be housed from end October till April 1 (maybe even May) or they would tramp ground to pure mud. the hope would be a 4.5/5 month housing for cows but most lads budget for 6 months feed for cows.
I was speaking to two farmers this week who are still feeding suckler cows inside, one lad letting them out today/tomorrow. I'd guess they were housed for 7 months maybe 8 !

This is a good example where farming regions are so different..

Going to be very high costs there so. We'd be comfortable on 3/4 acre of silage per cow most winters. Straw would be used as well though.

ellewood

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

I agree with muckit alot depends on invidual farm and skill level to finish. It not just a matter of dumping the bulls in a pen and pumping with a nut and throwwing a bale of straw in front of them. 16 months bulls are the easiest cattle to go wrong compared to older cattle. The other factor is trying to get efficient weight gain etc.

Agree re skill level to finish and skill level also when selling to factories agents/buyers love nothing more than a green seller looking to offload cattle which probably puts a lot of lads off finishing as well
16 mth old bull beef done well will leave a margin - bull beef done bad or inefficiently is a different story altogether. .

_Brian

blue5000 wrote: »

Going to be very high costs there so. We'd be comfortable on 3/4 acre of silage per cow most winters. Straw would be used as well though.

This is it, I know if I asked either lad what it cost to keep a cow for the year they wouldn't have a clue.. Now both farms are clean and tidy, the lads work hard doing what they think is the right thing.. But I reckon both are spending €350 a year on silage keeping their cows, it doesn't take much more to bring their costs of keeping cows well north of €600 for the year..

cacs

Thanks for all that good advice some really good stuff. Would anyone recommend crossing a hereford or Angus with a good continental cow breed cattle that will finish earlier

Cattlepen

cathal irwin wrote: »

Thanks for all that good advice some really good stuff. Would anyone recommend crossing a hereford or Angus with a good continental cow breed cattle that will finish earlier

I've been doing just that for a couple of years. They are good hardy cattle and have killed both steers and heifers from sixteen to eighteen months. Sold some privately as stores and the buyers were more than happy with them. The mart is the only place they are not appreciated. Buyers don't see the benefits of the breed with regard to bonuses and early finishing

tanko

Cattlepen wrote: »

I've been doing just that for a couple of years. They are good hardy cattle and have killed both steers and heifers from sixteen to eighteen months. Sold some privately as stores and the buyers were more than happy with them. The mart is the only place they are not appreciated. Buyers don't see the benefits of the breed with regard to bonuses and early finishing

What kind of weights and grades would the Angus steers and heifers kill out at?