Irish state now will now accept a trans persons own declaration of their gender

Daith

Crooked Jack wrote: »

you just ducked the question i posed. Gender is not on your birth cert. Sex is. So if you are changing gender why do you need a new birth cert?

Cos a doctor incorrectly assigned you the wrong sex when you were born and you wish to correct it.

kunst nugget

Daith wrote: »

Back to your box LGBTers

How do you know it's a box?

Crooked Jack

MrWalsh wrote: »

Changing gender is a private medical matter though isnt it? It doesnt sound very nice that a transgender person has to declare that they are transgender every time they apply for something by producing a "gender change cert" or such like.

How often do you have to produce your birth cert for something?

And as for applying for stuff, if all current and future documentation can be changed why cant you use it to apply for stuff. How many things out there require a birth cert and not a passport or driving licence. And even at that, like i said, people who have changed their name do it all the time by adding their deed poll or marriage cert.

There simply is no justification for altering or issuing new birth certs. This is not an issue of transgender rights, which im all for, this is about the dangerous precedent set by allowing the alteration (or reissue) of historical documents with makey uppy bits in them

Daith

kunst nugget wrote: »

How do you know it's a box?

Point 4 on the LGBT agenda.

Dodge

Do people actually care what is on another person's birth certificate?

Daith

Crooked Jack wrote: »

this is about the dangerous precedent set by allowing the alteration (or reissue) of historical documents with makey uppy bits in them

Rubbish. It's not an alteration or reissue of your existing one changed. They are two separate documents at that date in time.

You are aware it's possible for a number of reasons to have your birth cert changed. It isn't easy but it happens.

http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/Registering_Birth.aspx#correction

Crooked Jack

Daith wrote: »

Cos a doctor incorrectly assigned you the wrong sex when you were born and you wish to correct it.

But people have gone to great lengths on this and similar threads to claim that there is a difference between sex and gender. Now what sort of a doctor could assign the wrong sex,

sex being the anatomy of an individual's reproductive system, and secondary sex characteristics

aaakev

Daith wrote: »

Which is why you're not altering your existing Birth Cert. It's still there and correct as of that time. You get a new one which you might need to apply for a new passport etc.

When you get married and change your name you get a marriage certificate to go along with your birth certificate for official documents, i see no reason why a trans person cant get some sort of certificate (for want of a better word ) to prove they identify as a trans male or female which would suffice for the likes of passports or driving license. I dont think issuing a new birth certificate is the way to do this because its not factually correct even if the original still exists

Crooked Jack

MrWalsh wrote: »

The Transgender Agenda :rolleyes:

The Transgenda

Daith

aaakev wrote: »

When you get married and change your name you get a marriage certificate to go along with your birth certificate for official documents, i see no reason why a trans person cant get some sort of certificate (for want of a better word ) to prove they identify as a trans male or female which would suffice for the likes of passports or driving license.

So every time you want to apply for something you have to show that you're trans?

You're not a trans male or female. You're male or female.

niamh.foley

While we are at it, Sign into law that i shall have the right to end my life if i have an incurable illness.

Crooked Jack

Daith wrote: »

Rubbish. It's not an alteration or reissue of your existing one changed. They are two separate documents at that date in time.

You are aware it's possible for a number of reasons to have your birth cert changed. It isn't easy but it happens.

http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/Registering_Birth.aspx#correction

In extraordinary circumstances such as factual errors.
If however, after 18 years you decide you no longer want to be Michael the boy, you want to be Mary the girl that doesnt change the fact that you were Michael the boy at birth. That is not a factual error

MrWalsh

Crooked Jack wrote: »

In extraordinary circumstances such as factual errors.
If however, after 18 years you decide you no longer want to be Michael the boy, you want to be Mary the girl that doesnt change the fact that you were Michael the boy at birth. That is not a factual error

You were incorrectly assigned Michael the boy at birth.

Daith

Crooked Jack wrote: »

If however, after 18 years you decide you no longer want to be Michael the boy, you want to be Mary the girl that doesnt change the fact that you were Michael the boy at birth. That is not a factual error

It's not exactly a decision for most trans ppl.

kunst nugget

MrWalsh wrote: »

You were incorrectly assigned Michael the boy at birth.

Who incorrectly assigned you? The doctors? God?

Daith

kunst nugget wrote: »

Who incorrectly assigned you? The doctors? God?

Yes a doctor.

aaakev

Daith wrote: »

So every time you want to apply for something you have to show that you're trans?

You're not a trans male or female. You're male or female.

Well yes if its a requirement to show a birth certificate or marriage certificate to prove something why not something to say who you are? But lets face it, how many times are you required to show these things anyway?? First time you apply for a driving licence or passport and when you get married is all i can really think of.

As far as im concerned if you were born with a penis you were born of the male sex, nothing can ever change that fact so issuing a new birth certificate to state otherwise makes zero sense to me.

Sorry if the second part of my post was offensive, it definitely wasn't meant to be!

kunst nugget

Daith wrote: »

Yes a doctor.

Tbf, a doctor and nurses can only go on what's between your legs and not on the potential future psychological make up of the baby in front of them.

Un Croissant

I wasn't expecting this at all. I didn't think there was a push for this in Ireland. Maybe I heard one or two stories but I'm remembering them as American.

Anyway, I see people commenting other places that this is your pre election year and this is all to win votes. Quite frankly I couldn't care if it's just for votes. Progress is progress, let them have their votes. I'd vote for them, and probably will, if they tackle more social issues this year. Maybe abortion, the asylum seeker mess and the church in schools.

Sick to my teeth of everything being economics.

Daith

aaakev wrote: »

But lets face it, how many times are you required to show these things anyway?? First time you apply for a driving licence or passport and when you get married is all i can really think of.

Exactly so why are people getting up in arms?

For example, people have had the wrong father/parent on their birth cert. Should they not be allowed to change that but carry a separate card proving who their father is?

Daith

kunst nugget wrote: »

Tbf, a doctor and nurses can only go on what's between your legs and not on the potential future psychological make up of the baby in front of them.

Exactly but because they don't know the future make up....should that mean that a new cert can't be produced?

darkpagandeath

Cant see this being a problem at all. Under paid woman declares she is a man to avail of higher wages. People in relationships declaring opposite genders for tax reasons. Man declaring he is female to avail of female areas. People changing sex to avail of cheaper services. I mean you just declare what gender. I would do that to avail of cheaper services.

Daith

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Cant see this being a problem at all. Under paid woman declares she is a man to avail of higher wages. People in relationships declaring opposite genders for tax reasons. Man declaring he is female to avail of female areas. People changing sex to avail of cheaper services. I men you just declare you are a gender. I would do that to avail of cheaper services.

David Quinn is that you?

seamus

How many services exactly are cheaper depending on your gender?

aidan24326

aaakev wrote: »

When you get married and change your name you get a marriage certificate to go along with your birth certificate for official documents, i see no reason why a trans person cant get some sort of certificate (for want of a better word ) to prove they identify as a trans male or female which would suffice for the likes of passports or driving license. I dont think issuing a new birth certificate is the way to do this because its not factually correct even if the original still exists

This^^

Issue a legally valid certificate of some sort, that will suffice for passport applications and the like. There should be no need for a new birth cert.

MrWalsh

darkpagandeath wrote: »

People changing sex to avail of cheaper services.

Car insurance. Presumably if you declare you are female to avoid higher car insurance and then you have an accident and try to claim you will be exposed as falsifying your details and not be able to claim?

Daith

MrWalsh wrote: »

Car insurance. Presumably if you declare you are female to avoid higher car insurance and then you have an accident and try to claim you will be exposed as falsifying your details and not be able to claim?

Insurance fraud never existed before Trans people.

MrWalsh

Daith wrote: »

Insurance fraud never existed before Trans people.

Never!

Daith

MrWalsh wrote: »

Never!

It's like when David Quinn was yapping about two male friends getting married for a tax break cos sham marriages never existed before that.

aaakev

Daith wrote: »

Exactly so why are people getting up in arms?

For example, people have had the wrong father/parent on their birth cert. Should they not be allowed to change that but carry a separate card proving who their father is?

in your example there was incorrect information recorded at the time of it being issued so i have absolutely no problem with that at all. if someone is transgender that does not change the fact that they had certain reproductive organs at the time of birth.