Juventus v Barcelona, UCL Final, 6th June k/o 7.45pm - See mod warning in OP

Skylinehead

dfx- wrote: »

But determination and huge physical effort can be and has been overcome with skill. One of the main pluspoints of football over more 'athletic' sports.

Guardiolaball claims another casualty.

Barca did not play "Guardiolaball" last night. They've moved on as a team.

Billy86

Skylinehead wrote: »

Barca did not play "Guardiolaball" last night. They've moved on as a team.

Exactly, determination and physical effort/conditioning has massively improved under Enrique and that has played a huge role in their improvement this season (and declared interest in Pogba today apparently). I never got why some people think technique is a "superior" or more dignified/respectable skillet to athleticism; it's all about balance.

NIMAN

I can admire Suarez and Neymar as great talents and great to watch, but both are hateful characters on the pitch. They are among the worlds best feigners/divers/roll champions.

citytillidie

Mushy wrote: »

In fairness, he isn't the most likeable player!

Yes but trying to turn the thread into Liverpool V United again is just bad

dfx-

Skylinehead wrote: »

Barca did not play "Guardiolaball" last night. They've moved on as a team.

They did a fair bit of it. But not the extent of Pep.

The first goal had a touch from all ten outfield players in the build up. A lot of stuff in the first half was about keeping the ball. They also played it out of defence on the ground a lot more than recently.

Second half they played more on the break.

Will I Amnt

citytillidie wrote: »

Yes but trying to turn the thread into Liverpool V United again is just bad

Yeah, joining in will really help sort it out.

citytillidie wrote: »

Just reading the match thread and lol at the hate from certain people of Suarez

Billy86

citytillidie wrote: »

Yes but trying to turn the thread into Liverpool V United again is just bad

Yeah, I hate the cheating, devious scummy little f***er. But he's still probably the third best player in the world, and a joy to watch when he's not up to his tricks.

GLaDOS

Enjoyable final, not too cagey. Juve made a good game of it, particularly the start of the 2nd half, but overall Barcelona deserved the win. Truly a very special side.

Big Pussy Bonpensiero

Billy86 wrote: »

Exactly, determination and physical effort/conditioning has massively improved under Enrique and that has played a huge role in their improvement this season (and declared interest in Pogba today apparently). I never got why some people think technique is a "superior" or more dignified/respectable skillet to athleticism; it's all about balance.

I genuinely don't understand how people don't think this. Yes, of course there should be a 'balance,' but they very best players always have been, are and always will be considerably more skillful than athletic.

Billy86

THFC wrote: »

I genuinely don't understand how people don't think this. Yes, of course there should be a 'balance,' but they very best players always have been, are and always will be considerably more skillful than athletic.

Actually, the very best players typically have both.

Skylinehead

dfx- wrote: »

They did a fair bit of it. But not the extent of Pep.

The first goal had a touch from all ten outfield players in the build up. A lot of stuff in the first half was about keeping the ball. They also played it out of defence on the ground a lot more than recently.

Second half they played more on the break.

They kept the ball a fair bit in the first half yes, but the play was a lot more direct than "typical" Guardiola Barcelona. Even the first goal, Messi pinging it out to Alba on the wing goes against that a little. And like you say, it was counterattack in the second half, where they won the game, so I don't know how you can say Guardiolaball won it.

Big Pussy Bonpensiero

Billy86 wrote: »

Actually, the very best players typically have both.

More so skill. Xavi, Iniesta, Messi, Zidane, Figo, Ronaldo (x2), Cruyff, Pirlo, Ibra, Ronaldinho, etc., would you say these players are more athletic than skillful? Of course they are athletic, they also all have 2 legs, you still don't associate the word athletic with any of the best players in the world, bar maybe one or two.

Billy86

THFC wrote: »

More so skill. Xavi, Iniesta, Messi, Zidane, Figo, Ronaldo (x2), Cruyff, Pirlo, Ibra, Ronaldinho, etc., would you say these players are more athletic than skillful? Of course they are athletic, they also all have 2 legs, you still don't associate the word athletic with any of the best players in the world, bar maybe one or two.

Zidane was a very good athlete, and extremely strong. People often underestimate the stamina and workrate of Iniesta and especially Xavi (though he has obviously gotten older and lost some of it... and now he is done at Barca and off to MLS). Both Ronaldos are/were exceptional athletes - the older one losing his athleticism is what saw him go from a greatest of all time candidate in his teens to a journeyman before even reaching his 30s. Ronaldinho was also an excellent athlete, and his career fell off entirely when he lost that. Cruyff, again a great athlete - without his pace, quickness and agility he would not have been the same player. Messi moved up to a whole other level than he was previously when he bulked up and got stronger, and has improved a lot again this season due to his enhanced conditioning. Ibrahimovic again is an exceptional athlete.

Athleticism is one of the key reasons why countless really, really highly rated young prospects never make it at the senior level, full stop. One is every bit as important as the other, as is mentality/intelligence.

Big Pussy Bonpensiero

Billy86 wrote: »

Zidane was a very good athlete, and extremely strong. People often underestimate the stamina and workrate of Iniesta and especially Xavi (though he has obviously gotten older and lost some of it... and now he is done at Barca and off to MLS). Both Ronaldos are/were exceptional athletes - the older one losing his athleticism is what saw him go from a greatest of all time candidate in his teens to a journeyman before even reaching his 30s. Ronaldinho was also an excellent athlete, and his career fell off entirely when he lost that. Cruyff, again a great athlete - without his pace, quickness and agility he would not have been the same player. Messi moved up to a whole other level than he was previously when he bulked up and got stronger, and has improved a lot again this season due to his enhanced conditioning. Ibrahimovic again is an exceptional athlete.

Athleticism is one of the key reasons why countless really, really highly rated young prospects never make it at the senior level, full stop. One is every bit as important as the other, as is mentality/intelligence.

I'm not even going to bother tbh. If you can't see what separates the good from the great then there is no point.

Billy86

THFC wrote: »

I'm not even going to bother tbh. If you can't see what separates the good from the great then there is no point.

Yeah, because Ronaldo and Ronaldinho were just as good without their athleticism.

Truth is there are very few players who could be considered best in the world that would be described as unathletic. Because it's also very important. Simple as.

efb

I feel like I have to apologise to those that watched RoI v Eng on ITV today, it was my understanding yesterday was Townsends last game on ITV.

MisterAnarchy

efb wrote: »

I feel like I have to apologise to those that watched RoI v Eng on ITV today, it was my understanding yesterday was Townsends last game on ITV.

It was like a completely different sport to what we were treated to last night .

efb

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

It was like a completely different sport to what we were treated to last night .

I only saw the last 10 minutes and I couldn't bear it

Skylinehead

Billy86 wrote: »

Yeah, because Ronaldo and Ronaldinho were just as good without their athleticism.

Truth is there are very few players who could be considered best in the world that would be described as unathletic. Because it's also very important. Simple as.

Socrates! What a man.

Billy86

Skylinehead wrote: »

Socrates! What a man.

There are obviously exceptions, but Socrates was pretty big and strong at 6'3,and despite his languid style was actually a fast runner when he wanted to be.

Scholes and to an extent Pirlo are good examples, but both also operated at their best when they had protection from more athletic players.

K4t

Billy86 wrote: »

Yeah, I hate the cheating, devious scummy little f***er. But he's still probably the third best player in the world, and a joy to watch when he's not up to his tricks.

If anyone is no.3 on their own then it has to be Neymar imo.

Suarez joins a substantial list of players who, while being world class, are not on the god level that Messi and Ronaldo are, and which Neymar is fastly approaching. Even among strikers, you could not say for definite that Suarez is better than Aguero, Zlatan or Falcao.

eagle eye

K4t wrote: »

If anyone is no.3 on their own then it has to be Neymar imo.

Suarez joins a substantial list of players who, while being world class, are not on the god level that Messi and Ronaldo are, and which Neymar is fastly approaching. Even among strikers, you could not say for definite that Suarez is better than Aguero, Zlatan or Falcao.

I'd say for definite that Suarez is better than Zlatan and Aguero.

How you even put Falcao in there is beyond me, after the season he just had.

For me it's Messi, Ronaldo and then a gap to Neymar and Suarez and then another gap to the next group.

eagle eye

Billy86 wrote: »

Zidane was a very good athlete, and extremely strong. People often underestimate the stamina and workrate of Iniesta and especially Xavi (though he has obviously gotten older and lost some of it... and now he is done at Barca and off to MLS). Both Ronaldos are/were exceptional athletes - the older one losing his athleticism is what saw him go from a greatest of all time candidate in his teens to a journeyman before even reaching his 30s. Ronaldinho was also an excellent athlete, and his career fell off entirely when he lost that. Cruyff, again a great athlete - without his pace, quickness and agility he would not have been the same player. Messi moved up to a whole other level than he was previously when he bulked up and got stronger, and has improved a lot again this season due to his enhanced conditioning. Ibrahimovic again is an exceptional athlete.

Athleticism is one of the key reasons why countless really, really highly rated young prospects never make it at the senior level, full stop. One is every bit as important as the other, as is mentality/intelligence.

Obviously you have to be athletic to be at the top of the game in this day and age but the technical side of the game will decide where you are in the pecking order.

I can give you countless examples of players who excelled at youth level due to their athletic ability but failed due to lacking the skills when they moved up to senior level despite having great athleticism.

I can also give examples of players who didn't make it despite being gifted but there are less of these and in most cases it came down to a lack of discipline, you don't need to be the best athlete to be the best footballer but you have no hope of being the best footballer if you don't have the skills and technique.

Turtwig

Claudio Bravo set a new record for clean sheets in la liga. He was instrumental in helping Barca to la liga. He may NOT be getting a UCL medal. If true, he's going to be pissed.

rob316

I have to laugh when people compare Neymar to the likes of Messi and to a lesser Suarez. Those guys are 27/28, Neymar is only just turned 23. While he won't be as good as Messi (who can?) he can certainly reach Ronaldo's level.

He scored 39 goals in 51 appearances this season, that's phenomenal for his age. He will only improve been part of that front 3.

K4t

eagle eye wrote: »

I'd say for definite that Suarez is better than Zlatan and Aguero.

A lot of people wouldn't though. For example, I highly doubt many Man City fans would swap Aguero for Suarez. Then you also have the likes of Lewandowski definitely, and possibly Muller, who I'm sure Bayern fans would argue are as good as Suarez. As would I in both instances. You could even add in Benzema too, though I do think Suarez is better than him. The point is, all of these players have the stats to back up these arguments too. And unlike Neymar, I don't think Suarez has an all round game that is that much better than those players mentioned, or the capacity to ever have; whereas Neymar does have that higher ceiling imo which could allow him to reach the levels of Messi/Ronaldo. And he's beginning to show it, along with an excellent goals tally.

gimmick

LOLwandowski is the most over rated player in world football.

TheCitizen

K4t wrote: »

A lot of people wouldn't though. For example, I highly doubt many Man City fans would swap Aguero for Suarez.

Ah they would

K4t

gimmick wrote: »

LOLwandowski is the most over rated player in world football.

An average of 30 goals over the last 4 seasons, 23 of which came in the champions league, would strongly suggest that he is among the best strikers in the world. Also, I think his all around play is easily as good as that of Suarez, if not better.

TheCitizen wrote: »

Ah they would

The only reason they would is due to Aguero's injury record imo. In terms of ability and goal-scoring, nothing separates them really. I reckon Aguero was watching that final the other night and wondering what he's doing at City tbh.

Shanotheslayer

K4t wrote: »

Also, I think his all around play is easily as good as that of Suarez, if not better.

Suarez all round play is probably the best of any striker, I would but Lewens near Suarez in terms of that

764dak

Two despicable teams