League of Ireland in Europe 2015, mod note in OP

gimmick

I also think there is a level of cockiness has crept in in recent years. Whether that is just among the fans I dont know, but I do know that when we drew KR, many dismissed then as being "only from Iceland" and were looking ahead to Rosenburg. Im guessing the same applies for SPA.

We were plenty good enough to beat KR, but they set themselves up better and were therefore the better side over 2 games. That was naivety rather than illiteracy on behalf of Caulfield imo.

djpbarry

CHealy wrote: »

I think that was more a reflection of our managers tactics at the time rather than the strenght of our team/league.

It all ties in to the same thing though. Maybe Cork can get away with being tactically naïve against the Longfords and Galways of this world, but a more clever side will punish them.

CHealy wrote: »

Dundalk and Pats would have been able to easily dispose of KR…

Pats should easily have disposed of Skonto, but they missed a bucket load of chances and conceded sloppy goals.

djpbarry

gimmick wrote: »

I also think there is a level of cockiness has crept in in recent years.

Maybe amongst the fans, but I doubt the same could be said of the players and staff. Although, as I said above, if you’re used to winning 2 or 3 nil week in, week out, that has to lead to a certain level of complacency.

Paz-CCFC

If anything, the team respected KR too much. They were the seeded team and have a pedigree Europe (even if just the early rounds) that a lot of our squad, including the manager, don't have. Because of that, we played very cautiously in the away leg. If we hadn't given them as much respect when they went down to ten man and had a bit more belief in our ability, I think we'd have gotten the second goal to ultimately win the tie.

I don't see how arrogances would have crept in from league form. Limerick took points off Dundalk and Longford and Derry put it up to them, Bray put it up to us, so it's not like the big sides are having it all their own way. Sure, they're winning the vast majority of the time, but that's why they're at the top and qualifying for Europe in the first place. It's the same as any league the world over. The likes of Barcelona and Real Madrid are rarely beaten in La Liga. In the 00s, the league winners used to be getting about 80-85 points. In the last few seasons, it's been 95-100, with goal differences of +80-90. That suggests that their domestic league is becoming less of a challenge, with them hammering other teams more often. But it hasn't stopped them from dominating European competitions.

In the expanded leagues like La Liga, with two games against every team, you play smaller teams more often and bigger teams less often, so that reduces the relative competitiveness by another notch. In the LoI, you play your peers more often (whether that be more title challenger matches or relegation dogfights), compared to the matches with a huge gulf in class that 1st vs 20th would be. So, in a league with a "big 4/5" and a big drop off in quality thereafter, you'd have 6/8 particularly tough matches out of 38 in a 20 team league versus 9/12 out of 33 in a 12 team league.

There's always a big gulf between the top and the rest in plenty of leagues. There was as well in the LoI during the "golden years" in Europe from 2004 to 2008. So, I don't think it's a valid reason for us doing poorly this season.

Paz-CCFC

According to a TV analyst on Twitter, Dundalk's home match against BATE had an average of 135k and peaked at 237k. That beat the highest EPL match viewed in Ireland in the 2014/15 season, Man Utd v Southampton on Sky Sports, which had an average of 131k and a peak of 231k. Now, the results would've been skewed a bit by RTÉ being on terrestrial television and a lot of Sky viewers probably using online streams, but it's something that an LoI team is getting those kind of viewing figures, even for one game a year.

I hope Dundalk got a good deal off RTÉ.

LuckyLloyd

Paz-CCFC wrote: »

According to a TV analyst on Twitter, Dundalk's home match against BATE had an average of 135k and peaked at 237k. That beat the highest EPL match viewed in Ireland in the 2014/15 season, Man Utd v Southampton on Sky Sports, which had an average of 131k and a peak of 231k. Now, the results would've been skewed a bit by RTÉ being on terrestrial television and a lot of Sky viewers probably using online streams, but it's something that an LoI team is getting those kind of viewing figures, even for one game a year.

I hope Dundalk got a good deal off RTÉ.

It also demonstrates the interest in watching Irish clubs play at a certain level of competition. I know that's frustrating, because there is the chicken / egg scenario of needing the people to come now to ever reach that level consistently, but the interest IS there if it could be reached.

major bill

Decent documentry there on setanta about Dundalk in Europe

well before my time but it amazes me how that game with Linfield was allowed to go ahead after the incidents 2 days previous

LuckyLloyd

While comparisons don't mean a huge amount, worth noting that Scotland have no representatives remaining in Europe bar Celtic. Abderdeen won a round before being knocked out but it was losses otherwise.

And Northern Ireland have all representatives gone also. Linfield beat a Faroes Islands team and Crusaders won their first round CL tie before being beaten by the Albanian champs.

djpbarry

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

While comparisons don't mean a huge amount, worth noting that Scotland have no representatives remaining in Europe bar Celtic.

I noticed that myself - with the exception of the Old Firm, the performances of SPL teams in Europe over the last decade or so have generally been very poor.

I think it underlines the fact that there really are no easy games in Europe anymore and Irish sides do a remarkable job, given their limited resources, of even making themselves competitive at this level.

That said, I don't think the SPL is something the LOI should be comparing itself too.

djpbarry

If anyone's interested, BATE qualified for the group stages of the Champions League this evening, overcoming Partizan Belgrade on away goals, having beaten Videoton (who only scraped past TNS after extra time) 2-1 on aggregate in the previous round.

brianregan09

If anything that shows that the gap is not that huge , dundalk did really well against BATE and would have definitley beaten Videoton

wadacrack

brianregan09 wrote: »

If anything that shows that the gap is not that huge , dundalk did really well against BATE and would have definitley beaten Videoton

They wouldn't have definitely beaten Videton,Dundalk looked great 1st leg but Bate did show their experience/class in the 2nd leg. Its a shame they didnt have a chance at the Europa League qualifiers

gimmick

brianregan09 wrote: »

If anything that shows that the gap is not that huge , dundalk did really well against BATE and would have definitley beaten Videoton

Defintely? I presume you know plenty about Videoton to make such a statement.

CHealy

Lets not forget that on another night BATE would have won 6 or 7 nil in Oriel Park, they really upped their game after a bit of misjudgement from the first leg. The gap is huge.

djpbarry

CHealy wrote: »

Lets not forget that on another night BATE would have won 6 or 7 nil in Oriel Park...

Eh, no. No, they wouldn't. BATE were the better side and they should have won on the night, but Gary Rodgers hardly had a save to make.

The point is that Dundalk managed to compete with a side that have qualified for the group stages. You could rightly argue that Dundalk would have been lucky to go through, but they were in the tie right up until the death. It demonstrates that the gap between Irish sides and sides in the group stages of the CL (albeit the weakest sides) is not that colossal, even though the gap in resources is.

CHealy

djpbarry wrote: »

Eh, no. No, they wouldn't. BATE were the better side and they should have won on the night, but Gary Rodgers hardly had a save to make.

The point is that Dundalk managed to compete with a side that have qualified for the group stages. You could rightly argue that Dundalk would have been lucky to go through, but they were in the tie right up until the death. It demonstrates that the gap between Irish sides and sides in the group stages of the CL (albeit the weakest sides) is not that colossal, even though the gap in resources is.

Eh eh eh eh No, Dundalk cannot compete with the likes of BATE which means the gap is big because Dundalk are heads and shoulders above the rest of the LOI at the moment. (I'm a Cork City fan btw)

BATE manager himself came out and said after the first leg that he got it wrong about Dundalk, I'm sure if they were more professional about it, the score would have been alot more than 2-1. As I said, on another night when the shooting boots were on, BATE would have scored 6 or 7 easy in the second leg.

Captain Havoc

I'm of the the miss is as good as a mile mentality. Irish teams have been getting heroic defeats since god knows when, at the end of the day, we've yet to get a team into the CL group stages.

djpbarry

CHealy wrote: »

...Dundalk cannot compete with the likes of BATE...

Except that they did.

CHealy wrote: »

BATE manager himself came out and said after the first leg that he got it wrong about Dundalk...

Fairly sure Partizan Belgrade's manager would have said the same thing when Shams knocked them out of the Europa League a few years ago - doesn't change anything.

djpbarry

Captain Havoc wrote: »

I'm of the the miss is as good as a mile mentality.

Oh sure - I agree. I'm not one for reflective glory either and I'm certainly not saying Dundalk only just missed out on qualification for the group stages - they had two more rounds to get through at the end of the day.

Pighead

CHealy wrote: »

Lets not forget that on another night BATE would have won 6 or 7 nil in Oriel Park, they really upped their game after a bit of misjudgement from the first leg. The gap is huge.

Probably would have agreed with you before our games with them but having seen them twice the gap is not as big as I thought it would be. Without doubt they were the better side over the two legs but physically we matched up to them a lot better than I expected. Mountney bullying their left back in the first leg was a particular surprise.

cson

Captain Havoc wrote: »

I'm of the the miss is as good as a mile mentality. Irish teams have been getting heroic defeats since god knows when, at the end of the day, we've yet to get a team into the CL group stages.

I'm of the if a shagging Kazakh team can get into the Group Stages then we should have a chance ourselves!

Zebra3

cson wrote: »

I'm of the if a shagging Kazakh team can get into the Group Stages then we should have a chance ourselves!

Yeah, cos it's not like Astana are funded by an oil rich state. :rolleyes:

cson

Zebra3 wrote: »

Yeah, cos it's not like Astana are funded by an oil rich state. :rolleyes:

Fair point but they've still got mainly Kazakh players in the team.

CSF

cson wrote: »

Fair point but they've still got mainly Kazakh players in the team.

6 of the 11 that played the game against APOEL there weren't Kazakh

The_Kew_Tour

We are miles away from having team in CL group stage, miles.

Pighead

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

We are miles away from having team in CL group stage, miles.

Yes, you probably are. Dundalk on the other hand........

shteve

TBF I think Dundalk were very unlucky with the draw. Take that Albanian team Skenderbeu. They got Crusaders and a Moldovan team en route to the Champions League play off. There is a significant element of luck involved in reaching the group stages of either the CL or EL. Unfortunately, Irish teams have not yet got that rub of the green.

Zebra3

Pighead wrote: »

Yes, you probably are. Dundalk on the other hand........

Are what? On the verge of qualifying?

Knocked out two rounds before the group stages.

Dundalk are far closer than anyone else in Ireland but still nowhere near.

wadacrack

The team that beat Shamrock Rovers comprehensively in the EL qualifier lost 7-2 to Borrusia Dortmund, still a very big gap.

Awesomeness

wadacrack wrote: »

The team that beat Shamrock Rovers comprehensively in the EL qualifier lost 7-2 to Borrusia Dortmund, still a very big gap.

Thats Dortmund though. We are talking about qualifying not winning it

djpbarry

Zebra3 wrote: »

Pighead wrote: »

Yes, you probably are. Dundalk on the other hand........

Are what? On the verge of qualifying?

Knocked out two rounds before the group stages.

Dundalk are far closer than anyone else in Ireland but still nowhere near.

I think that might have been intended as a humorous comment.

djpbarry

wadacrack wrote: »

The team that beat Shamrock Rovers comprehensively in the EL qualifier lost 7-2 to Borrusia Dortmund, still a very big gap.

We’re talking about the worst sides in the group stages though, not the best. I'm sure Dortmund would probably give BATE a spanking over two legs too.

The_Kew_Tour

Pighead wrote: »

Yes, you probably are. Dundalk on the other hand........

Are what exactly? Go on I'm listening...

monkey9

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Are what exactly? Go on I'm listening...

Jesus, unwind there!!

dreamers75

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Are what exactly? Go on I'm listening...

Kilometres away.

MarkSRFC21

wadacrack wrote: »

The team that beat Shamrock Rovers comprehensively in the EL qualifier lost 7-2 to Borrusia Dortmund, still a very big gap.

I wouldn't say rovers were comprehensively beaten

dfx-

wadacrack wrote: »

The team that beat Shamrock Rovers comprehensively in the EL qualifier lost 7-2 to Borrusia Dortmund, still a very big gap.

They were 3-0 up at home to Dortmund in the first leg also..