Phoenix Park Road Closed

jeffk

Is there any rhyme or reason why as they close certain parts of the road in it?

Spent the evening looking at the deer scenery etc and came up by the hole in the wall to turn right towards Castleknock and noticed at the below roundabout the road to the left was now closed.

53.366766, -6.341386 in Google maps

monument

jeffk wrote: »

Is there any rhyme or reason why as they close certain parts of the road in it?

Spent the evening looking at the deer scenery etc and came up by the hole in the wall to turn right towards Castleknock and noticed at the below roundabout the road to the left was now closed.

53.366766, -6.341386 in Google maps

http://www.phoenixpark.ie/newsevents/title,33866,en.html

"There will be a partial closure of Chesterfield Avenue from Friday 8th May 2015 to Sunday 27th September 2015 from 8pm on Friday evenings until 8pm on Sunday evenings and Public Holidays from the Phoenix Monument Roundabout to the Mountjoy Roundabout only."

Spanish Eyes

monument wrote: »

http://www.phoenixpark.ie/newsevents/title,33866,en.html

"There will be a partial closure of Chesterfield Avenue from Friday 8th May 2015 to Sunday 27th September 2015 from 8pm on Friday evenings until 8pm on Sunday evenings and Public Holidays from the Phoenix Monument Roundabout to the Mountjoy Roundabout only."

No reasons why though. Unless I am missing something.

LXFlyer

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

No reasons why though. Unless I am missing something.

It's an effort to make the Park a more enjoyable experience for visitors during summer weekends by pedestrianizing part of Chesterfield Avenue.

jeffk

They would want signage further back.

Was going that way one Saturday and mid roundabout oh look its closed, dunno how I didn't hit barrier or be hit from behind.

horse7

Can we have our road back please, if you must close it 9am _9pm at weekends, but not Fri 9pm _sun 9pm.

magicbastarder

your road? nice to meet you, mr. higgins.

horse7

magicbastarder wrote: »

your road? nice to meet you, mr. higgins.

Obviously misread, our road is not my road!

Ste.phen

I'm broadly in agreement with this, even though I've been caught out by it a few times by forgetting about the closure; it reprioritises the park for people going to it instead of through it

horse7

It would make more sense to leave the main road open and close all other entries. Also it would be nice if Phoenix park would update their site with 2016 weekend closure times.

Larbre34

Count yourselves lucky, a plan to ban all private car traffic from the Park was averted a few years back. I have no doubt its still on the wishlist of the OPW and others.

As someone living close to the park, the weekend closure of part of the Avenue in summer time to facilitate amenities and events has been a very good thing. The diversions are well established and add perhaps five minutes. Hardly the end of the world.

beauf

Ste.phen wrote: »

I'm broadly in agreement with this, even though I've been caught out by it a few times by forgetting about the closure; it reprioritises the park for people going to it instead of through it

Does it though?

horse7 wrote: »

It would make more sense to leave the main road open and close all other entries. Also it would be nice if Phoenix park would update their site with 2016 weekend closure times.

Exactly. It just forces traffic around all the quieter areas in the park.

Which seems to be the exact opposite of the objective.

Unless of course the objective is to encourage people not to go through the park in the car at all.

In which case just stop through traffic. It would be a serious PITA for locals though.

jeffk

Attempted to go to living history in visitor centre and forgot/thought this was only at night

Again went to turn off roundabout and last minute seen road closed.

Issue of road closed aside, they really need better signage/advanced notice . No left, road closed ahead etc and then clearly sign alternative routes

monument

beauf wrote: »

Does it though?



Exactly. It just forces traffic around all the quieter areas in the park.

Which seems to be the exact opposite of the objective.

Unless of course the objective is to encourage people not to go through the park in the car at all.

In which case just stop through traffic. It would be a serious PITA for locals though.

I'd say "reprioritises the park for people going to it instead of through it" and "the objective is to encourage people not to go through the park in the car at all", aren't as far away from each other as you think -- to do the former, you're going to have to do some of the latter.

The OPW don't exactly hide their intent, it's in the park's management plan.

Carawaystick

beauf wrote: »

Exactly. It just forces traffic around all the quieter areas in the park.

Which seems to be the exact opposite of the objective.

Unless of course the objective is to encourage people not to go through the park in the car at all.

In which case just stop through traffic. It would be a serious PITA for locals though.

Only car traffic is affected, it's grand on bikes or walking, which are nice quiet forms of traffic too.

beauf

monument wrote: »

I'd say "reprioritises the park for people going to it instead of through it" and "the objective is to encourage people not to go through the park in the car at all", aren't as far away from each other as you think -- to do the former, you're going to have to do some of the latter.

The OPW don't exactly hide their intent, it's in the park's management plan.

I know. They've closed roads before for no reason at all. Its one of the major transport routes for the D.15 area.

But thats not my point. The point is it encourages cars to do big circular routes on the quieter more scenic areas in the park.

Carawaystick wrote: »

Only car traffic is affected, it's grand on bikes or walking, which are nice quiet forms of traffic too.

Again the point is those cycling and walking on the quieter areas now have more cars to content with. On smaller roads less suited for the traffic.

Doesn't bother me. Hardly effects me. Just the logic of it, doesn't quite work. Which I always found curious.

Ste.phen

It's hit and miss I guess - depending on where you're starting and finishing there's still ways through the park, as you say, but for many people it'd be as fast to drive around the park and enter near their destination instead

For example, i drove from Islandbridge to Farmleigh via the back roads on the south side of the park this weekend, because i wanted to drive through the park, but I probably should have drove straight up knockmaroon hill and entered the park at that gate, would have been faster

ThisRegard

beauf wrote: »

I know. They've closed roads before for no reason at all. Its one of the major transport routes for the D.15 area.

But thats not my point. The point is it encourages cars to do big circular routes on the quieter more scenic areas in the park.



Again the point is those cycling and walking on the quieter areas now have more cars to content with. On smaller roads less suited for the traffic.

Doesn't bother me. Hardly effects me. Just the logic of it, doesn't quite work. Which I always found curious.

That's the problem though, it shouldn't be a major transport route for Dublin 15 (and I'm saying that as someone who lives there), it's first and foremost a recreational facility.

I enjoy that area of the park when it's closed, and the hours closed don't really have a major effect on the alternative routes people use.

Spanish Eyes

Parking on Chesterfield Avenue on weekdays is mostly commuter traffic.

The park should never be that.

beauf

ThisRegard wrote: »

That's the problem though, it shouldn't be a major transport route for Dublin 15 (and I'm saying that as someone who lives there), it's first and foremost a recreational facility.

I enjoy that area of the park when it's closed, and the hours closed don't really have a major effect on the alternative routes people use.

It replaces a shorter car journey with a longer one. Doesn't bother me. But it effectively keeps cars in the park longer.

magicbastarder

How many people use the park at the weekends to commute through though?

beauf

magicbastarder wrote: »

How many people use the park at the weekends to commute through though?

It's just general traffic. Not commuting specifically. It's the shortest a to b for a lot of local traffic.

Sending it around around the outside of the park would make more sense than sending it the long way around inside the park.

Always struck me as illogical.

Carawaystick

ThisRegard wrote: »

That's the problem though, it shouldn't be a major transport route for Dublin 15

But the Phoenix Park is in Dublin 8...

magicbastarder

The words 'for' and 'in' mean different things.

beauf

Why is 8, I thought it should be 7.

ThisRegard

Carawaystick wrote: »

But the Phoenix Park is in Dublin 8...

I wasn't saying otherwise, I was responding to another poster saying it's a major transport route for those coming and going to Dublin 15.

beauf wrote: »

Why is 8, I thought it should be 7.

Apparently it's a throw back to before post codes were in place, it was served by a sorting office that was within what became Dublin 8, and continued to be served by this sorting office after the post codes were in place.

Chuchote

It would be nice if there were three Dublin Bikes stands in different areas of the park, so you could park a car outside and then cycle through.

Seve OB

ThisRegard wrote: »

I wasn't saying otherwise, I was responding to another poster saying it's a major transport route for those coming and going to Dublin 15.

which it is. just because it is in Dublin 8, that doesn't mean it doesn't serve D15! Come out Castleknock gate and where do you think you are? :rolleyes:

I don't really see the problem. The have been doin it for years now, I would reckon this must be at least the fourth...... it works fine. you are never going to suit all of the people all of the time!

beauf

Its works if it suits, unless it doesn't.

Used to bother me, as I used to go through it a lot on a sat/sun. Rarely do it now, so not affected by it.

beauf

Chuchote wrote: »

It would be nice if there were three Dublin Bikes stands in different areas of the park, so you could park a car outside and then cycle through.

Park in the Navan Road Parkway, and bring your own bike, or a fold up bike.

Lots of people park on Chesterfield, and cycle to work from there.

I assume you mean for tourist etc. I assume they think they will enter at parkgate and use the bike hire there.

Chuchote

beauf wrote: »

Park in the Navan Road Parkway, and bring your own bike, or a fold up bike.

Lots of people park on Chesterfield, and cycle to work from there.

I assume you mean for tourist etc. I assume they think they will enter at parkgate and use the bike hire there.

I did really - for tourists and for Dubliners too, it would be nice to be able to take a bike, cycle through, go for a walk along the riverbank, come back in, take another bike…

beauf

Or a picnic even.... go to the zoo. etc.

AlanG

Living in Dublin 15 I get impacted by this a lot but I think it is a good idea. It allows more recreational use of the park and has little impact on drivers. That said I do think they need to improve the signage.

Pat Dunne

Chesterfield Avenue has developed (not by design) into a significent commuting route from Dublin 15 and further afield, into the City Centre. It's permanent closure would cause significant difficulties for commuters during weekdays. However I find the weekend closures do not cause major difficulties.

I do recall some years back, during the "Tiger" era that a number of D15 local residents put a proposal to the OPW to build a cut and cover tunnel from inside the Castleknock Gate, following Chesterfield Avenue and exiting at Park Gate Street.

To my mind a wonderfully simple solution providing commuters with an upgraded route to the City Centre and enabling the OPW to develope Chesterfield Avenue.

Mind you I seem to recall a plan from the OPW in the 1970's for the elimination of all vehicular traffic from the park and for a monorail to run along Chesterfield Avenue.

magicbastarder

wonderfully simple, yet massively expensive and i can't see how it wouldn't cause the massive problems it was designed to alleviate.
i.e. a cut and cover tunnel would undoubtedly involve road closures; plus there's already the rail tunnel under the park which would further complicate things.

beauf

The other routes are Navan road, Blackhorse Ave, Chapelizod. All of which have had their traffic capacity restricted over many years. Compared to the 90's its a lot less capacity on the roads. Though lane restrictions, traffic calming, and lights, so many lights.

The solution is to go somewhere else. Which is possible with shopping centres etc.
Also there's a lot of local parks now which many with better facilities than the phoenix park anyway. Especially for families.

Pat Dunne

magicbastarder wrote: »

wonderfully simple, yet massively expensive and i can't see how it wouldn't cause the massive problems it was designed to alleviate.
i.e. a cut and cover tunnel would undoubtedly involve road closure; plus there's already the rail tunnel under the park which would further complicate things.

Any major road project in a city will be expensive.
It eliminates traffic from the Park in line with the OPW plans of the past.
Yes there would be temporary road closures during the construction, similar to all projects of this nature.
Easily overcome in the design process.

magicbastarder

if they were to build a cut and cover tunnel under the park, i would certainly argue that a rail system should take precedence over road in an ideal world. that said, a rail system which began and ended just at the park gates would clearly be foolish.

Pat Dunne

magicbastarder wrote: »

if they were to build a cut and cover tunnel under the park, i would certainly argue that a rail system should take precedence over road in an ideal world. that said, a rail system which began and ended just at the park gates would clearly be foolish.

In an ideal world, Connolly, Pearse and Hueston would be connected via the Circle Line, with connectivity from the Maynooth Line also running south through the PP Tunnel on to the Circle Line.

Meanwhile back in the real world D15 has the Maynooth line, with 4 stations, plus Ongar on the Dunboyne spur and a fairly decent service.

beauf

If they electrify the line to Maynooth, then you could get that at the N3 parkway then switch to the Luas BXD.

Seve OB

Pat Dunne wrote: »

D15 already has the Maynooth line, with 4 stations and a fairly decent pretty crappy service.

FYP

magicbastarder

beauf wrote: »

If they electrify the line to Maynooth, then you could get that at the N3 parkway then switch to the Luas BXD.

true; but even with that, the bus and rail services tend to be packed. though the effect of the luas is yet to be seen.

markpb

Pat Dunne wrote: »

D15 already has the Maynooth line, with 4 stations, plus Ongar on the Dunboyne spur and a fairly decent service.

Most people would not call a train every 25-30 minutes at rush hour a train every hour at weekends a "fairly decent" service. A high-frequency operation (like the green and red luas lines are currently offering) would be far more attractive to most passengers. The only things preventing that happening at reasonable cost are the Sligo trains.

LXFlyer

markpb wrote: »

Most people would not call a train every 25-30 minutes at rush hour a train every hour at weekends a "fairly decent" service. A high-frequency operation (like the green and red luas lines are currently offering) would be far more attractive to most passengers. The only things preventing that happening at reasonable cost are the Sligo trains.

Ah to be fair it is roughly every 10-15 minutes during the peak hours, when you combine Docklands and Connolly services. At some stages it is better than that. That's not unreasonable and is, I think, a decent service level. It does however need more commuter sets rather than ICRs.

The issue is the off-peak and weekend frequency, and the lack of a late service on Sunday evenings.

The principal issue preventing the operation of more services are the three remaining major level crossings at Clonsilla, Coolmine and Ashtown.

Pat Dunne

Seve OB wrote: »

FYP

I didn't say it was perfect, but as someone who has used it to commute from D15 at peak times to Pearse and Connolly for the last 10 years it has served my purposes.

Yes, the is always room for improvement, however I shudder to think what the commute would be like without it.

markpb

lxflyer wrote: »

Ah to be fair it is roughly every 10-15 minutes during the peak hours, when you combine Docklands and Connolly services.

Between 6am and 10am, Ashtown inbound has headways of 10, 14, 18, 18, 19, 24 and 30 minutes. Luas has a headway of 4-6 minutes at the same time.

The principal issue preventing the operation of more services are the three remaining major level crossings at Clonsilla, Coolmine and Ashtown.

Those can't be fixed at reasonable cost. Automating them won't help because of the impact on road traffic. Building road bridges over them is unlikely between the cost and the objections from neighbours. Level crossings don't cause the same problem for trams. You could run 8+ trams per direction per hour across those junctions and neither the tram operation nor the road traffic would suffer.

I don't think there's a good solution here. The line was let develop into a reasonably major line even though it's thoroughly unsuited to it. IC customers get a slow service, Maynooth residents get a okay-ish service and people living in Dublin get an awful service. Infrastructure spending to bring it up to scratch to suit everyone would be incredibly expensive. So people will keep driving through the Phoenix Park.

beauf

The Dockland and Connolly services are not interchangeable for most people.

For many if you miss one train and get the alternative, the extra walking means waiting for the next train is usually quicker. So in reality there really isn't a frequency of 10~15 mins.

LXFlyer

markpb wrote: »

Between 6am and 10am, Ashtown inbound has headways of 10, 14, 18, 18, 19, 24 and 30 minutes. Luas has a headway of 4-6 minutes at the same time.

Those can't be fixed at reasonable cost. Automating them won't help because of the impact on road traffic. Building road bridges over them is unlikely between the cost and the objections from neighbours. Level crossings don't cause the same problem for trams. You could run 8+ trams per direction per hour across those junctions and neither the tram operation nor the road traffic would suffer.

I don't think there's a good solution here. The line was let develop into a reasonably major line even though it's thoroughly unsuited to it. IC customers get a slow service, Maynooth residents get a okay-ish service and people living in Dublin get an awful service. Infrastructure spending to bring it up to scratch to suit everyone would be incredibly expensive. So people will keep driving through the Phoenix Park.

You can't just compare a heavy rail frequency with the light rail - the heavy rail services will have greater capacity - an 8 car 29k will carry several tram loads. You're comparing apples and oranges.

I can also see headways of 5, 6 and 9 minutes from Ashtown when you look at departures to both Docklands and Connolly during that period.

Ultimately the LCs will have to be eliminated - that much is a given.

Seve OB

Pat Dunne wrote: »

I didn't say it was perfect, but as someone who has used it to commute from D15 at peak times to Pearse and Connolly for the last 10 years it has served my purposes.

Yes, the is always room for improvement, however I shudder to think what the commute would be like without it.

As someone who grew up on the Dart Line and has seen and used it a lot for most of the 90's through to the early 00's, I just can't understand that 20 years on, this side of the city has such a crappy inferior service still to the way the Dart was back then... let alone now!

I used to be happy walking around to get a Dart, now it is such a pain to get the Maynooth train that I don't really bother.

lxflyer wrote: »

The principal issue preventing the operation of more services are the three remaining major level crossings at Clonsilla, Coolmine and Ashtown.

That's just crap. Look at the Merion Gates, Lansdowne Road, Sandymount, Bray etc etc along the Dart Line. Train comes, gate drops, train passes, gates lift.

Tip along to Coolmine, train is coming.... it will get here... soon(ish) so you may as well turn off the engine and relax. But don't get excited when a train passes, cause there might be another along in about 10 minutes, so there is no point in lifting the barriers just yet!!!

So it's not about the level crossings, it's about how they operate them and that should be an easy fix

LXFlyer

beauf wrote: »

The Dockland and Connolly services are not interchangeable for most people.

For many if you miss one train and get the alternative, the extra walking means waiting for the next train is usually quicker. So in reality there really isn't a frequency of 10~15 mins.

Ah come on - you have to look at the overall frequency on the line when you're talking about line capacity - claiming otherwise is daft.

I appreciate they won't all suit everyone but the numbers of people walking to the southside from Docklands is significant.

LXFlyer

Seve OB wrote: »

As someone who grew up on the Dart Line and has seen and used it a lot for most of the 90's through to the early 00's, I just can't understand that 20 years on, this side of the city has such a crappy inferior service still to the way the Dart was back then... let alone now!

I used to be happy walking around to get a Dart, now it is such a pain to get the Maynooth train that I don't really bother.

That's just crap. Look at the Merion Gates, Lansdowne Road, Sandymount, Bray etc etc along the Dart Line. Train comes, gate drops, train passes, gates lift.

Tip along to Coolmine, train is coming.... it will get here... soon(ish) so you may as well turn off the engine and relax. But don't get excited when a train passes, cause there might be another along in about 10 minutes, so there is no point in lifting the barriers just yet!!!

So it's not about the level crossings, it's about how they operate them and that should be an easy fix

With respect it is not "crap". Frankly there is no need to be offensive about it - this isn't after hours and a little bit of respect for one another's posts doesn't cost much.

If you increase the service any more beyond the current (at times) 5 and 6 minutes, the barriers will have to stay down on a virtual permanent basis.

Because they are located beside stations, they have to be closed before the train arrives in the station towards the level crossing - that is a safety fail safe procedure lest the train fails to stop at the platform. Therefore they can't just close before the train arrives, they have to close in advance when the train is appx two signal sections away.

Changing the signalling is massively expensive. But in saying that the line needs resignalling.

The southeastern line has much shorter signalling sections which allows the barriers to be opened and closed more often.

Ultimately the plan is to eliminate the crossings altogether - this has been stated as an essential part of the electrification process.