Phoenix Park Road Closed

Seve OB

lxflyer wrote: »

With respect it is not "crap". Frankly there is no need to be offensive about it - this isn't after hours and a little bit of respect for one another's posts doesn't cost much.

If you increase the service any more beyond the current (at times) 5 and 6 minutes, the barriers will have to stay down on a virtual permanent basis.

Because they are located beside stations, they have to be closed before the train arrives in the station towards the level crossing - that is a safety fail safe procedure lest the train fails to stop at the platform. Therefore they can't just close before the train arrives, they have to close in advance when the train is appx two signal sections away.

Changing the signalling is massively expensive. But in saying that the line needs resignalling.

The southeastern line has much shorter signalling sections which allows the barriers to be opened and closed more often.

Firstly, I wasn't being offensive, so calm down there. I was merely pointing out the flaws and comparing them to somewhere not to far away which has a system that works

And secondly, your defense is pretty much what I have pointed out.... they need to fix the signaling and way the gates work, because that is the nub of the problem.

They did it on the Dart line for a hell of a lot more gates (which incidentally are right beside stations also) eg, Lansdowne, Sydney parade, Sandymount & Bray on the Southside (I'm not as familiar with the Northside.

Carawaystick

lxflyer wrote: »

If you increase the service any more beyond the current (at times) 5 and 6 minutes, the barriers will have to stay down on a virtual permanent basis.

Because they are located beside stations, they have to be closed before the train arrives in the station towards the level crossing - that is a safety fail safe procedure lest the train fails to stop at the platform. Therefore they can't just close before the train arrives, they have to close in advance when the train is appx two signal sections away.

Changing the signalling is massively expensive. But in saying that the line needs resignalling.

The southeastern line has much shorter signalling sections which allows the barriers to be opened and closed more often.

And on the dart lne the barriers are opened by machines which open both gates at the same time,and are never busy chatting instead of opening the gates.

But at the times Chesterfield avenue is closed, the frequency of the trains is not an issue.

lxflyer wrote: »

Ultimately the plan is to eliminate the crossings altogether - this has been stated as an essential part of the electrification process.

I wonder what observations CIÉ or IÉ made to the planning dept about the recent construction at Ashtown, it's unbelievable they said nothing and allowed this highly developed area get built in the footprint of any overbridge.

LXFlyer

Seve OB wrote: »

Firstly, I wasn't being offensive, so calm down there. I was merely pointing out the flaws and comparing them to somewhere not to far away which has a system that works

And secondly, your defense is pretty much what I have pointed out.... they need to fix the signaling and way the gates work, because that is the nub of the problem.

They did it on the Dart line for a hell of a lot more gates (which incidentally are right beside stations also) eg, Lansdowne, Sydney parade, Sandymount & Bray on the Southside (I'm not as familiar with the Northside.

With respect - telling someone that what they posted is "crap" is rather offensive. It's utterly unnecessary. As I said above - a little bit of respect for one another isn't asking a lot.

Irrespective of upgrading the signalling (which is not an easy fix as you claimed - it's a very expensive and time consuming process), if frequency is to be increased even more at peak times on the Maynooth line, the LCs need to be removed altogether.

The existence of the gates on the DSE line precludes any higher frequency than a limited period of every 5 minutes.

trellheim

Removing Ashtown , Clonsilla and Coolmine LCs will all be massive jobs , for example Ashtown would be OK on one side but you'd be landing in between two blocks of flats on the north side

magicbastarder

is there scope anywhere near clonsilla to build an overpass nearby and close the current road?
i can't see this being an option with coolmine or ashtown.

LXFlyer

magicbastarder wrote: »

is there scope anywhere near clonsilla to build an overpass nearby and close the current road?
i can't see this being an option with coolmine or ashtown.

There is a plan for Coolmine - relocating to a bridge further west, but local residents aren't happy with it (redirecting traffic towards what is a residential area), so it may be back to the drawing board.

I'd imagine something similar would be needed for Clonsilla and Ashtown.

Being honest about it, none of the existing locations of all three LCs would facilitate bridges. Any bridge will have to be further away.

beauf

They should really have built it into the design of the Dr Troy Bridge. Opportunity missed there.

I know at the time, it was designed to facilitate Metro etc. But still.

Seve OB

magicbastarder wrote: »

is there scope anywhere near clonsilla to build an overpass nearby and close the current road?
i can't see this being an option with coolmine or ashtown.

lxflyer wrote: »

There is a plan for Coolmine - relocating to a bridge further west, but local residents aren't happy with it (redirecting traffic towards what is a residential area), so it may be back to the drawing board.

I'd imagine something similar would be needed for Clonsilla and Ashtown.

Being honest about it, none of the existing locations of all three LCs would facilitate bridges. Any bridge will have to be further away.

As lxflyer says, there is / was a plan for Coolmine, except it was actually directly into a housing estate on both sides of the bridge rather than just a residential area. It was lunacy. I haven't hears anything of it in a good while so I presume (hope) it has been put to bed.

beauf

Seve OB wrote: »

...It was lunacy....

+1

But that's what they'll probably do.

The plan seems to be to route as much of through traffic through every estate possible. Why there is so much through traffic can't be a surprise when they build massive commuter towns so far out.

beauf

lxflyer wrote: »

Ah come on - you have to look at the overall frequency on the line when you're talking about line capacity - claiming otherwise is daft.

I appreciate they won't all suit everyone but the numbers of people walking to the southside from Docklands is significant.

You are missing the point.

It actually quicker to wait for the next train than get one to the wrong station and walk between them. I would say its nicer to get the docklands as its shorter time crammed face to face with other passengers, and then any walking you do is less time on the packed train. But for most people it will make more sense to wait for the next train to the station they want. IR could make it more attractive by making the docklands trains longer, less packed and more facilities for mixed modal users (cyclists). Then cycling the rest of the journey become and option. Anyway. Its a bit disingenuous to combine two different routes as the same route for frequency.

LXFlyer

beauf wrote: »

You are missing the point.

It actually quicker to wait for the next train than get one to the wrong station and walk between them. I would say its nicer to get the docklands as its shorter time crammed face to face with other passengers, and then any walking you do is less time on the packed train. But for most people it will make more sense to wait for the next train to the station they want. IR could make it more attractive by making the docklands trains longer, less packed and more facilities for mixed modal users (cyclists). Then cycling the rest of the journey become and option. Anyway. Its a bit disingenuous to combine two different routes as the same route for frequency.

I'm not missing the point - when you look at Maynooth line capacity you have to take both sets of trains into account as they both use the same tracks as far as Glasnevin Junction.

They will both serve Broombridge too so should we not take them into account when looking at switching to BXD?

And saying IR should lengthen trains is missing the point too. I'm sure they'd love to do it but the bottom line is that there is no rolling stock in service to do it. To achieve it would require the 2700 Class being reinstated and as posted in numerous threads that requires extra PSO funding from government to cover the costs of reinstating them and operating them.

beauf

The trains gong to docklands varies. Its not always the same length. its not even the same type of train at the same time. Its just changes seemingly at random. So the rolling stock is there some of the time.

The docklands train doesn't go to Maynooth. So including it Maynooth to BXD frequency is completely misleading.
Similarly for those going to Drumcondra. No point including the Docklands train, it doesn't stop there.

Will you include express trains and good trains, in frequency because they also use the lines?

LXFlyer

beauf wrote: »

The trains gong to docklands varies. Its not always the same length. its not even the same type of train at the same time. Its just changes seemingly at random. So the rolling stock is there some of the time.

The docklands train doesn't go to Maynooth. So including it Maynooth to BXD frequency is completely misleading.
Similarly for those going to Drumcondra. No point including the Docklands train, it doesn't stop there.

Will you include express trains and good trains, in frequency because they also use the lines?

I said Maynooth LINE - that's the generic term used to describe the line serving the four D15 stations in question. Both sets of trains all serve those stations hence they are relevant.

There is insufficient rolling stock to remove the ICRs from commuter services - that is well documented - if you choose not to believe that then fair enough.

beauf

Its just observation the trains aren't always the same length at the same time everyday. Its not a question of belief.

The line frequency (using same tracks) while related, is different to passenger journey frequency. They shouldn't be confounded as you are doing.

We get the line itself can't handle more traffic, without significant investment, and that investment has gone elsewhere regardless of need.

BuffyBot

Any chance we can go back on topic folks? This isn't a thread about rail services after all..

beauf

How about a treeline Ski lift through the park. That would be cool.

magicbastarder

there's not really much to talk about re the original topic. roads are closed at the weekends, most people are happy.

beauf

They closed the entire main road for 6 months or more when they resurfaced it. Took their good time about reopening it. Very little complaining about that then too. People just moved to other routes. There was more fuss about closing the north road when they did that for no reason. Maybe the lack of reason caused the complaints. People accepted the repairs to the main road. I dunno.

Its a great route for cycling commuters. Which has never been negatively effected by any of these things.

Seve OB

beauf wrote: »

They closed the entire main road for 6 months or more when they resurfaced it. Took their good time about reopening it. Very little complaining about that then too. People just moved to other routes. There was more fuss about closing the north road when they did that for no reason. Maybe the lack of reason caused the complaints. People accepted the repairs to the main road. I dunno.

Its a great route for cycling commuters. Which has never been negatively effected by any of these things.

They didnt actually just resurface it. It was a complete new road, they dug right down and put in new foundations..... The works. The road was in such a bad state before that, it was so welcome to see them actually fix it that it made the closure bearable as you knew there was a new road coming at the end.

beauf

Yeah forgot that. Amazing it was so long without a proper foundation.

magicbastarder

you could see the lack of a decent road bed especially where the tour buses pulled in at the end of the view up to the aras. the road was like an assault course there.

Carawaystick

beauf wrote: »

Its a great route for cycling commuters. Which has never been negatively effected by any of these things.

Apart from the cycle lane on the odd lamps road being closed to allow cars drive on it when Chesterfield avenue is closed...

beauf

That was my original point.

beauf wrote: »

...Exactly. It just forces traffic around all the quieter areas in the park....

But while it makes it less nice it doesn't really stop you from using it.

GM228

Apologies if already mentioned and I missed it but who is reaponsible for the roads within the park, Dublin City Council or the OPW - in other words are they public roads or roads in a public place?

Seve OB

GM228 wrote: »

Apologies if already mentioned and I missed it but who is reaponsible for the roads within the park, Dublin City Council or the OPW - in other words are they public roads or roads in a public place?

OPW

http://www.phoenixpark.ie/visitorinformation/

thomasj

Been on the navan road for the last 20 minutes only getting to cabra Garda station.

Safe to say if the phoenix park was to close to private traffic, this would cause chaos to Dublin 15 .

Pat Dunne

thomasj wrote: »

Been on the navan road for the last 20 minutes only getting to cabra Garda station.

Safe to say if the phoenix park was to close to private traffic, this would cause chaos to Dublin 15 .

I know your pain well my friend

I now avoid the stretch of the Navan Road from Cabra Cross to the Halfway House like the plague! Especially in the evenings.

I always detour through Cabra over the new bridge on Rathoath Road, on to Cappagh, then left on to Ballycoolin Rd, taking the turn on Blanchardstown Rd North, on over the Navan road up past the Blanchardstown Centre, past the Millennium Park and home

Try it next time.
Safe journey.

beauf

thomasj wrote: »

Been on the navan road for the last 20 minutes only getting to cabra Garda station.

Safe to say if the phoenix park was to close to private traffic, this would cause chaos to Dublin 15 .

Odd thing was it didn't when chesterfield ave closed for the best part of a year.

lucernarian

Are the weekend closures still only for the summer period?

horse7

Closed at 9pm now,no signs till on the small roundabout near castle knock end.

cython

lucernarian wrote: »

Are the weekend closures still only for the summer period?

horse7 wrote: »

Closed at 9pm now,no signs till on the small roundabout near castle knock end.

They end on the 24th of this month: http://phoenixpark.ie/chesterfield-avenue-partial-closure-at-weekends/

magicbastarder

over breakfast this morning, we were idly speculating that it'd be good if they moved the wall of the park along blackhorse avenue; move it 10m inwards into the park, widen blackhorse avenue and permanently close the main avenue. i'm sure the residents along the road there would love the idea though.

beauf

I thought something similar except create it inside the park wall. Possibly down the southern edge of the park as most of that is not utilised.

pclive

A better idea would to create traffic cells throughout the park not allowing any through traffic
It's a park not a motorway to and from the city

beauf

Maybe they should ban everyone and make a nature reserve.

horse7

beauf wrote: »

Maybe they should ban everyone and make a nature reserve.

It would be far better to have a dual carriageway through the park. At the very least Dublin bus route using it. This at least could keep the deer to one side of the park. There's plenty of park there for people and animals to enjoy.

Cannon_fodder

horse7 wrote: »

It would be far better to have a dual carriageway through the park. At the very least Dublin bus route using it. This at least could keep the deer to one side of the park. There's plenty of park there for people and animals to enjoy.

Will never happen. Can see vehicular access through the park being closed off shortly. Don't think they want cars in the park using it as a thoroughfare to the City.

ThisRegard

horse7 wrote: »

It would be far better to have a dual carriageway through the park. At the very least Dublin bus route using it. This at least could keep the deer to one side of the park. There's plenty of park there for people and animals to enjoy.

I don't know if you're on a wind up but it's a ridiculous idea.

horse7

ThisRegard wrote: »

I don't know if you're on a wind up but it's a ridiculous idea.

May sound ridiculous but the most obvious and practical one. Ridiculous is bringing a luas from the city to Cabra west.

uck51js9zml2yt

horse7 wrote: »

May sound ridiculous but the most obvious and practical one. Ridiculous is bringing a luas from the city to Cabra west.

Yep..should definitely have stopped the luas at Cabra east!

beauf

horse7 wrote: »

It would be far better to have a dual carriageway through the park. At the very least Dublin bus route using it. This at least could keep the deer to one side of the park. There's plenty of park there for people and animals to enjoy.

The point is if there has to be a road one around the perimeter has far less impact than one down the middle.

If you are going to ban cars. Then why not pedestrianise say a 5 mile radius of city centre. Then there is no need for cars to use the park for commuting.

horse7

ThisRegard wrote: »

I don't know if you're on a wind up but it's a ridiculous idea.

May sound ridiculous but the most obvious and practical one. Ridiculous is bringing a luas from the city to Cabra west.

monument

Some people in the suburbs need to start accepting some realities.

The number of cars entering Dublin City Centre (defined as inside the canals) has dropped from 89,500 in 1997 to 51,908 in 2016. In the same time frame the number of people entering the area has jumped from 179,557 to 202,001.

That's a 37,592 decrease in cars crossing the canals in 19 years, but the number of people crossings the canals increasing by 22,444.

The number of people living within the city centre also continues to increase and that cannot be supported by allowing cars to remain with such a percentage of road and street space.

Maybe some car tunnel could be built and justified somewhere, but the reality is that it would be wasteful to build such in a park in the direction of a city centre route where car capacity has just been cut, is going to be cut further when Luas Cross City is an active part of the green line and will be cut again when/if the Liffey Cycle Route goes ahead.

monument

horse7 wrote: »

May sound ridiculous but the most obvious and practical one. Ridiculous is bringing a luas from the city to Cabra west.

How exactly is it ridiculous?

The Luas Cross City route use the disused Broadstone railway cutting and serves what is likely the higher density of housing and employment than any other few km of Luas route.

Broombridge will not be its final end point, it will be extended to Finglas in the future.

beauf wrote: »

If you are going to ban cars. Then why not pedestrianise say a 5 mile radius of city centre. Then there is no need for cars to use the park for commuting.

Because nobody is banning cars, there is a justified reduction in capacity but access will be kept for those who need it..

beauf

monument wrote: »

....Because nobody is banning cars, there is a justified reduction in capacity but access will be kept for those who need it..

Thats fine.

But there is a lack of realization that this part of Dublin has restricted public transport links, and the road network is very restricted. I'm saying that from the perspective of someone who rarely drives.

For example Blanch Center to City Center via the park. Is a very poor route for inexperienced cyclists. Yet cycling is the perfect alternative for people on this route. The train is ok, good parking for cars and bikes, but it really needs more capacity on the train.

monument

beauf wrote: »

Thats fine.

But there is a lack of realization that this part of Dublin has restricted public transport links, and the road network is very restricted. I'm saying that from the perspective of someone who rarely drives.

For example Blanch Center to City Center via the park. Is a very poor route for inexperienced cyclists. Yet cycling is the perfect alternative for people on this route. The train is ok, good parking for cars and bikes, but it really needs more capacity on the train.

Where exactly is there an unrestricted road network between any suburb and the city centre? Dublin 15 has Dublin Bus and Commuter Rail -- more options than many places have closer to the city.

It's also to get a bus upgrade in the form of BRT and eventually Dart, although the latter is likely a long way off.

The Liffey Cycle Route will sort the worst part of cycling between the D15 and the city centre and more can follow.

beauf

monument wrote: »

Where exactly is there an unrestricted road network between any suburb and the city centre?... .

Most have a multitude of alternative routes if you close a road.

A lot of parks in the UK you have to walk to them, and walk everywhere in them. They should just that. Make people use public transport to get to it, and no parking in it.

ThisRegard

beauf wrote: »

Most have a multitude of alternative routes if you close a road.

A lot of parks in the UK you have to walk to them, and walk everywhere in them. They should just that. Make people use public transport to get to it, and no parking in it.

Try getting a bunch of kids to park with a variety of bikes and prams via public transport, or better yet, as you'll be familiar, cycle with young kids to it.

People are trying to solve a non existent problem with the park. There's no issue with its recreational use and a destination as is.

The problem seems to be when people want to use it as a waypoint to get elsewhere.

Edit, forgot to add, it'll be fun getting dogs to and fro, particularly after they've taken a dip or rolled in deer crap, on public transport.

monument

beauf wrote: »

Most have a multitude of alternative routes if you close a road.

D15 residents currently has the following ways to get to the city centre:

1. The park
2. N3/R147
3. R806
4. R109
5. N2/R135 via the M50
6. N1 via M50
7. M50 including the Port Tunnel (tolled)
8. R805
9. N4 / R148 via the M50 (tolled)
10. N4 / R148 via Lucan / R149/R121
11. ...And other both tolled and non-tolled routes depending on which route is best to get them where they are going.

It's really the the island that some people make it out to be.

beauf wrote: »

A lot of parks in the UK you have to walk to them, and walk everywhere in them. They should just that. Make people use public transport to get to it, and no parking in it.

In fairness, are you talking about parks the size of the Phoenix Park?

lucernarian

monument wrote: »

Where exactly is there an unrestricted road network between any suburb and the city centre? Dublin 15 has Dublin Bus and Commuter Rail -- more options than many places have closer to the city.

It's also to get a bus upgrade in the form of BRT and eventually Dart, although the latter is likely a long way off.

The Liffey Cycle Route will sort the worst part of cycling between the D15 and the city centre and more can follow.

The most difficult part of cycling from D15 is D15 itself - the council's attitude to cycling and building sufficient road space to begin with is frankly negligent. Some of that is Dublin County Council legacy but no one put a gun to Fingal's head to continue a completely unsustainable development that is Blanch shopping centre, or the various distributor road designs.

It's also worth noting that D15 has a colossal size and is more comparable to somewhere like D24 than a closer suburb of Dublin (which arguably already has it easier with a council that cares a bit more about cycling, and inherently is a shorter journey for many commuters.

In West Dublin, the Palmerstown "bypass" brings people near enough the centre by bus or car in large volumes. The Naas Road does something similar in SW Dublin. Drumcondra/Swords Road now has pretty much continuous bus lanes on both sides. The Stillorgan Bypass and most of the 145 bus route has a lot of capacity too. I think somewhere like Knocklyon and Rathfarnham has it worse, but doesn't have to compete with through traffic or commuting from further beyond, to the same extent as arterial routes have in D15.