Copa América

hots

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

There are no 'fringe' rules, anyone over 23 can be picked.
Expect to see Neymar definitely and probably Messi imo, especially as the comps timing won't be a huge clash with La Liga.

Sorry I didn't mean it was a rule but they don't tend to be prime players do they? 38 y.o Giggs, Bellamy and Micah Richards were in the GB team last time out.

inforfun

Argentina team that won the Olympics in Beijing.

Decent....

ArmaniJeanss

hots wrote: »

Sorry I didn't mean it was a rule but they don't tend to be prime players do they? 38 y.o Giggs, Bellamy and Micah Richards were in the GB team last time out.

That effectively comes down to that GBR didn't take it seriously as a comp, whereas it is a big deal in other parts of the world.

LuckyLloyd

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Olympics next year also. Whilst we don't rate it as a competition it is a big deal in most of the world. And winning it in Rio would be special.
Could even see the situation where Barcelona&Argentina agree to let him skip the out-of-sequence Copa with the Olympics being preferred.

Messi has already won the Olympics though....

CSF

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

He'll turn 31 during the 2018 World Cup.
He'll turn 29 during next year's Copa and 32 during the 2019 edition.

Thereafter he'll turn 35 during the 2022 World Cup and 36 during the 2023 Copa.

He has three more chances really, and as a player who relies heavily on his acceleration and pace there are no guarantees that he can be as effective / more effective on the 2018 team given the age profile of key Argentina players around him.

Messi's range of passing means he shouldn't have as much trouble as others adapting when his legs don't work like they used to.

I'd be very surprised if Argentina won a World Cup in Messi's career whether Messi performs in the blue and white or not. This is not a golden generation for Argentinian football. Lots of good attacking players but the players aren't there to allow the attacking players thrive. Who takes over from the midfield 3 that normally is made up from Di Maria, Mascherano, Biglia and Pastore?

With that back 5 it looks like a Copa America be the most Messi could hope for. Does winning a World Cup really accelerate Maradona above though when Messi is a superior individual player.

hots

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

That effectively comes down to that GBR didn't take it seriously as a comp, whereas it is a big deal in other parts of the world.

Yeah I had a look there and you're right, only GBR and spain (of the 'big' countries) didn't pick 3 big players as their over-age ones.

LuckyLloyd

CSF wrote: »

Messi's range of passing means he shouldn't have as much trouble as others adapting when his legs don't work like they used to.


I'd be very surprised if Argentina won a World Cup in Messi's career whether Messi performs in the blue and white or not. This is not a golden generation for Argentinian football. Lots of good attacking players but the players aren't there to allow the attacking players thrive. Who takes over from the midfield 3 that normally is made up from Di Maria, Mascherano, Biglia and Pastore?

With that back 5 it looks like a Copa America be the most Messi could hope for. Does winning a World Cup really accelerate Maradona above though when Messi is a superior individual player.

The cliff can come very quick.

And I agree with your assessment looking forward for this Argentina team. Their best chance was 2014, fine margins in the end. Penalties in 2006 against Germany and trounced against Germany in 2010. He's had three good shots at it. No guarantees of a fourth.

Does it matter? It's a point. Something to consider.

CSF

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The cliff can come very quick.

And I agree with your assessment looking forward for this Argentina team. Their best chance was 2014, fine margins in the end. Penalties in 2006 against Germany and trounced against Germany in 2010. He's had three good shots at it. No guarantees of a fourth.

Does it matter? It's a point. Something to consider.

World Cups are team sports. I'd be more worried that Messi has yet to really light up a World Cup in the way he has the greatest stage for Barca, but then again, they're pretty infrequent.

Corholio

I'm surprised Messi could get much criticism at all. There's only a certain amount even the best player in the world can do during a tournament. I also don't buy into the fact it was just coaching that didn't win Argentina the cup either, the other players should take a lot of responsibility for it too.

Skylinehead

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

He has three more chances really, and as a player who relies heavily on his acceleration and pace there are no guarantees that he can be as effective / more effective on the 2018 team given the age profile of key Argentina players around him.

I don't think he relies on pace. Yes, he uses it to great effect now, but he's such a good playmaker that I think he can easily adapt his game once that goes.

Billy86

CSF wrote: »

With that back 5 it looks like a Copa America be the most Messi could hope for. Does winning a World Cup really accelerate Maradona above though when Messi is a superior individual player.

I don't know that he is, though. For me there is no clear 'best' player ever - just a list at the very top featuring Pele, Maradona, Beckenbauer, and likely most/all of Cruyff, Di Stefano, Messi, Ronaldo and perhaps Platini.

The Olympics are a nice thing to win, but it is essentially an under age tournament.

CSF

Billy86 wrote: »

I don't know that he is, though. For me there is no clear 'best' player ever - just a list at the very top featuring Pele, Maradona, Beckenbauer, and likely most/all of Cruyff, Di Stefano, Messi, Ronaldo and perhaps Platini.

The Olympics are a nice thing to win, but it is essentially an under age tournament.

Messi has every piece of technique and magic in his locker that Maradona had, 2 magical players. But where Messi destroys Maradona is the consistency of end product at the top levels of football that was previously unheard of before Ronaldo and Messi came along and set a new standard that it's unlikely players after them will be able to meet.

Maradona can be part of a World Cup winning team all he wants, as an individual, the notion of him scoring nearly 100 goals in a year (with a ridiculous amount of assists to go with it) was never on the cards. Nor was half that tally.

Corholio

CSF wrote: »

Messi has every piece of technique and magic in his locker that Maradona had, 2 magical players. But where Messi destroys Maradona is the consistency of end product at the top levels of football that was previously unheard of before Ronaldo and Messi came along and set a new standard that it's unlikely players after them will be able to meet.

Maradona can be part of a World Cup winning team all he wants, as an individual, the notion of him scoring nearly 100 goals in a year (with a ridiculous amount of assists to go with it) was never on the cards. Nor was half that tally.

While the argument that Messi is the best ever is a fairly strong one and one I'd be close to agreeing with, I don't think the goals thing making him the best is as cut and dried as that. For me, I would put Maradona ahead of Ronaldo but Ronaldo's goals stats destroy Maradona's and also in long range shooting, for which Maradona actually wasn't that great at statistically. Stats can be added together etc but I don't think the goals fact makes him way ahead just because of it, not taking into account era's of football etc etc

CSF

Corholio wrote: »

While the argument that Messi is the best ever is a fairly strong one and one I'd be close to agreeing with, I don't think the goals thing making him the best is as cut and dried as that. For me, I would put Maradona ahead of Ronaldo but Ronaldo's goals stats destroy Maradona's and also in long range shooting, for which Maradona actually wasn't that great at statistically. Stats can be added together etc but I don't think the goals fact makes him way ahead just because of it, not taking into account era's of football etc etc

There's less of an all other things being equal thing between Ronaldo and Maradona, because their skillsets aren't similar really. Ronaldo and Maradona are unbelievable for different reasons. Whereas Maradona had nothing that Messi does not. Messi has all the technique and magic of Maradona, but is able to use it more frequently to score and create goals for his team.

Corholio

CSF wrote: »

There's less of an all other things being equal thing between Ronaldo and Maradona, because their skillsets aren't similar really. Ronaldo and Maradona are unbelievable for different reasons. Whereas Maradona had nothing that Messi does not. Messi has all the technique and magic of Maradona, but is able to use it more frequently to score and create goals for his team.

There's an argument there that Maradona had an even bigger influence on teams themselves than Messi has, like Maradona grabbed responsibility of teams and of games and won them. This is a reason that Maradona has an almost limitless reverance with fans of his ability to do this. Messi has a different way of doing it, although I'm not saying a lesser way.

CSF

Corholio wrote: »

There's an argument there that Maradona had an even bigger influence on teams themselves than Messi has, like Maradona grabbed responsibility of teams and of games and won them. This is a reason that Maradona has an almost limitless reverance with fans of his ability to do this. Messi has a different way of doing it, although I'm not saying a lesser way.

I don't think there's a good argument for that. Maradona just largely played in weaker teams where he was the big fish. Messi on the other hand has been the driving force behind 2 trebles, 3 Champions Leagues, countless La Ligas. Of course, those were won by a team, not just Messi, but throughout those competitions, in the big games, Messi would come up with the magic in a way that only him and Ronaldo have ever been able to do so frequently.

Billy86

CSF wrote: »

Messi has every piece of technique and magic in his locker that Maradona had, 2 magical players. But where Messi destroys Maradona is the consistency of end product at the top levels of football that was previously unheard of before Ronaldo and Messi came along and set a new standard that it's unlikely players after them will be able to meet.

Maradona can be part of a World Cup winning team all he wants, as an individual, the notion of him scoring nearly 100 goals in a year (with a ridiculous amount of assists to go with it) was never on the cards. Nor was half that tally.

Goals and assists isn't a good marker though, because Messi plays considerably higher up the pitch than Maradona did typically. It would be like using Lampard's goal/assist tally to show he was better than Roy Keane. Messi has been performing on an obscenely consistent level along with Ronaldo, but again it has to be said that possibly no forward in the history of the game has had the platform/support players behind him that Messi has over his career, in this era of the mega-rich clubs (Barca/Real in particular). This was not the case for Maradona (though to be fair, some do tend to underrate a few of the team mates he had at Napoli and with Argentina). Tellingly, Messi has not produced that same level of consistency for Argentina, where he has some extremely good team mates, but not the same level as with the guys he has at Barca (who also dominated on the international stage without Messi on a level not seen in a long, long time).

I would argue that Xavi was every bit the driving force Messi was, if not more, in Barcelona's successes (certainly in the earlier years) - hence why Spain didn't require a Messi/Ronaldo type force to be so dominant for so long. But the again I'm a massive, massive Xavi fan who grew up as a Man Utd fan believing Scholes was unmatched for vision and genius in the middle of the field (moreso than even Pirlo), and have no issue saying Xavi was better at a very similar/the same role. For me, Xavi is only narrowly outside the top, top guys in terms of 'best ever'.

Corholio

CSF wrote: »

I don't think there's a good argument for that. Maradona just largely played in weaker teams where he was the big fish. Messi on the other hand has been the driving force behind 2 trebles, 3 Champions Leagues, countless La Ligas. Of course, those were won by a team, not just Messi, but throughout those competitions, in the big games, Messi would come up with the magic in a way that only him and Ronaldo have ever been able to do so frequently.

But then you could always say that Messi had better support, more of the ball to him etc etc. But what I was originally saying is that I don't think it's cut and dried because of the goals factor. I don't really have an opinion on the greatest player ever really because there's a lot of factors that can go for and against players depending on what era you look at. I do think you underestimate the teams he played in too, Napoli were no amateurs and had a lot of quality players in his time there. But as I said I as just saying the arguments that can be put forward that cannot be easily dismissed.

gosplan

Comparing players from different eras is tricky.

Arguments go either way. Maradonna was big fish in small pond etc etc. but then what could Maradonna have achieved playing in the same club for years with Xavi, Iniesta and Busquets?

Messi gets it on professionalism but by that benchmark nearly every player today is better than Best.

It's very clear that there are factors in the game that help Messi achieve these records and this consistency.

eagle eye

CSF wrote: »

I don't think there's a good argument for that. Maradona just largely played in weaker teams where he was the big fish. Messi on the other hand has been the driving force behind 2 trebles, 3 Champions Leagues, countless La Ligas. Of course, those were won by a team, not just Messi, but throughout those competitions, in the big games, Messi would come up with the magic in a way that only him and Ronaldo have ever been able to do so frequently.

You were right in a previous post that Maradona would never equal Messi's goal tally.

The reason for that is he had the legs kicked off him in nearly every game he played. If anybody lays a hand on Messi he gets a free kick.

Fact is that when it comes to the important moments you can be guaranteed that Maradona will always be there and do his thing. He will inspire his teammates to perform better than they ever have before. Messi doesn't have that leadership quality in his locker and it's probably the main reason why Maradona is the greater player.

Kirby

eagle eye wrote: »

Fact is that when it comes to the important moments you can be guaranteed that Maradona will always be there and do his thing. He will inspire his teammates to perform better than they ever have before. Messi doesn't have that leadership quality in his locker and it's probably the main reason why Maradona is the greater player.

I think champions league finals count as big moments to be honest. I think its important not to go overboard. While I achnowledge obvious facts like his decreased work rate and increased lazyness off the ball which cannot be disputed, people get carried away with notions of him not being a big game player. He is. And any team with Messi in it would feel they have the edge on their opponents.

And personally I feel people rate international achievements too highly. The overall quality of international football is much, much higher now then when Pele played, and even when Maradona played. Some really poor teams have done well in one off tournaments and some realllly average players have had great tournaments. Football has moved on. They are all much fitter. Fullbacks now are more skillful than most wingers of that era. We have trickier ruleset that players today deal with like passbacks, offsides and so on. So I find it a little irksome when people point to Ronaldo and Messi's international exploits as a stick to beat them with.

There are legitimate sticks, no need to use imaginary ones.

Iused2likebusts

eagle eye wrote: »

You were right in a previous post that Maradona would never equal Messi's goal tally.

The reason for that is he had the legs kicked off him in nearly every game he played. If anybody lays a hand on Messi he gets a free kick.

Fact is that when it comes to the important moments you can be guaranteed that Maradona will always be there and do his thing. He will inspire his teammates to perform better than they ever have before. Messi doesn't have that leadership quality in his locker and it's probably the main reason why Maradona is the greater player.

There were numerous times at important moments when Maradona didn't do his thing same as there is with Messi. Maradona winning the 86 world cup was an unbelievable achievement. His other world cup tournaments he didn't have the same impact and was dissapointing in some of them. As far as I remember he didn't win a copa America. Argentina won 2 91 and 93 when he wasn't in the squad. Maradona was human just like Messi and had his off nights.

monkey9

The Champions League is so much more of a higher quality tournament than the World Cup has ever been. This nonsense that Messi needs to lead Argentina to World Cup victory to prove himself just because Maradonna did well in Mexico 86 is just that, nonsense.

Messi has continuously proved himself on the highest stage.

bucketybuck

CSF wrote: »

Messi on the other hand has been the driving force behind 2 trebles, 3 Champions Leagues, countless La Ligas.

You misspelled Xavi.

I have no problem saying that Guardiolas Barcelona team would have been just as successful without Messi, but would not have been the same team at all without Xavi or Iniesta.

That doesn't mean Messi wasn't the best player in the world, but the likes of Eto, Villa, Henry, Ibrahimovic were no slouches either and Barca would have gotten their goals from somewhere. You can't say the same for the platform in midfield that allowed the likes of Messi to do their thing up front.

eagle eye

monkey9 wrote: »

The Champions League is so much more of a higher quality tournament than the World Cup has ever been. This nonsense that Messi needs to lead Argentina to World Cup victory to prove himself just because Maradonna did well in Mexico 86 is just that, nonsense.

Messi has continuously proved himself on the highest stage.

Of course he has but it's been in teams full of world class players. He had Xavi in his prime for most of them and Xavi won World Cups and Euros too at the same time. I truly believe that the Barca team under Pep would have won without Messi.

Would Napoli have won their Serie A titles with him instead of Maradona? I severely doubt it.

monkey9

eagle eye wrote: »

Of course he has but it's been in teams full of world class players. He had Xavi in his prime for most of them and Xavi won World Cups and Euros too at the same time. I truly believe that the Barca team under Pep would have won without Messi.

Would Napoli have won their Serie A titles with him instead of Maradona? I severely doubt it.

I know nothing of the Napoli side in the late eighties apart from the fact that Maradonna was there. But considering they had Maradonna there, I assume they had money to spend and had a nice little phase the way Lazio had at the turn of this century.

Brendan Flowers

Andersonisgod wrote: »

He was in a stadium with thousands of people and somebody shouting his name over a PA system, it would have been kinda tough to reject the thing.
Not sure why that matters anyway, absolutely guaranteed had Ronaldo performed the same kind of gesture (unlikely given his love of personal awards and that he'll never get one of these playing for his national team) we would never heard the end of it from certain posters on this forum. After all there was a fair bit of a love in when Ronaldo donated 5 million to charity (which was later proven to be a complete lie)

And yet the ironic thing is that here you are doing the very same thing with Messi.

Am I the only one fed up with all this pathetic and childish 'my player is better than your player' posting regarding Ronaldo and Messi. I can't understand how some people who claim to be football fans can't appreciate the fact that we have not one but 2 players who deserve to be considered among the best of all time. These 2 guys are at the peaks of their careers, breaking records for fun and IMO driving one another to be better footballers.

I get the feeling the likes of you would rather see Ronaldo fail (and likewise for the Ronaldo fanboys with Messi) the appreciate the talents of that player and enjoy the great football they produce. It's the kind of stuff I'd expect from 6 year olds, not what I can only assume are grown men.