Why is there sometimes snobbery towards IT's?

Darpa

The Pheasant2 wrote: »

You misunderstand me. I'm speaking with regard to similar courses in universities and ITs - for example if you take a large sample of students from Business and Law in UCD and compare their points with a sample from Business and Law in DIT I can guarantee you there's a more than decent chance the uni students will have higher points on average.

Yes but far more places are available in IT's, and far more specialisms in Business and Law are available and they are geared to working in real life, not just academics, so I'm afraid your not comparing like with like at all.

The Pheasant2

Darpa wrote: »

Yes but far more places are available in IT's, and far more specialisms in Business and Law are available and they are geared to working in real life, not just academics, so I'm afraid your not comparing like with like at all.

So what? That's not what we're talking about.

OP made the thread asking why there's snobbery against ITs.

Someone suggested it's because the points are lower for ITs in general so (ignorant) people assume if you go to an IT it's because you didn't get the points for uni.

OP replied that they got offers from both and chose the IT so that can't be the root of the snobbery.

To which I said that with regard to similar courses it is simply a fact that uni students will overwhelmingly have higher points than IT students; and it is because of THAT fact that people would feel superior about going to a uni.

Darpa

The Pheasant2 wrote: »

So what? That's not what we're talking about.

OP made the thread asking why there's snobbery against ITs.

Someone suggested it's because the points are lower for ITs in general so (ignorant) people assume if you go to an IT it's because you didn't get the points for uni.

OP replied that they got offers from both and chose the IT so that can't be the root of the snobbery.

To which I said that with regard to similar courses it is simply a fact that uni students will overwhelmingly have higher points than IT students; and it is because of THAT fact that people would feel superior about going to a uni.

You're the one that keeps going on and on about points.
What do you mean overwhelmingly ?

eternal

Darpa wrote: »

What do you mean overwhelmingly ?

Basically the ones struggling with 250 points are looking to horse themselves in anywhere while students with 400 odd will have more choice. It's not rocket science.

Darpa

eternal wrote: »

Basically the ones struggling with 250 points are looking to horse themselves in anywhere while students with 400 odd will have moire choice. It's not rocket science.

Points don't measure the quality of a course.

eternal

Everyone has different skills. I made the mistake of choosing a practical course very young and later on when I was older realised I was academic. A lot of people don't know what they want when they are 18.

eternal

Darpa wrote: »

Points don't measure the quality of a course.

Suitability though. But it helps to not be stupid.

The Pheasant2

Darpa wrote: »

You're the one that keeps going on and on about points.
What do you mean overwhelmingly ?

That's because I'm saying it's the higher points of uni students that drives anti-IT snobbery! Yanno? Its the topic of this thread in case you hadn't noticed!

Bridge93

Darpa wrote: »

Points don't measure the quality of a course.

The question was why there is perceived snobbery not which is better quality. Points required is very much a reason why young students may develop a snobby attitude. At 18 many aren't thinking beyond 'a course requires X here and Y here so if X is higher then I should go there.'

Darpa

eternal wrote: »

Suitability though. But it helps to not be stupid.

They are not a reliable measure of either of those things either. They measure how hard a person worked at a particular point in time, at a particular leaving cert subject. Nothing else.

eternal

Some people are losers. They sweep the streets all day, other people are doctors and surgeons. Have you ever differentiated the level of conversation you would have with either person? One wants to talk about what Mary did last week in her underpants while the other is very polite and determined.

eternal

Darpa wrote: »

They are not a reliable measure of either of those things either. They measure how hard a person worked at a particular point in time, at a particular leaving cert subject. Nothing else.

That's crap. I did no work for my leaving and still got into college.

Darpa

eternal wrote: »

Some people are losers. They sweep the streets all day, other people are doctors and surgeons. Have you ever differentiated the level of conversation you would have with either person? One wants to talk about what Mary did last week in her underpants while the other is very polite and determined.

Well I'm not sure why Docs like Mary in her underpants, but whatever floats your boat.

Bridge93

With the B&L example above I would be very confident in saying 95% if not closer to 100% of the students in UCD would have received more LC points. 18 year olds will hold points at the top of their reasons for choosing between two very similar courses. Especially when DIT and UCD are up the road from each so travelling will not come into it.
Hence in teens narrow minds this could lead to a sense of superiority or snobbery which is wrong.

Scirpt

alroley wrote: »

I did a course in LIT and my friend did the same one in UL. Both were 4 years long but I had way longer hours and actually did more modules than her. But of course my degree is considered not as good as hers by many

What courses were they?

Darpa

eternal wrote: »

That's crap. I did no work for my leaving and still got into college.

Pity, you could have done something better according to the points theory.

lickme

eternal wrote: »

Suitability though. But it helps to not be stupid.

You couldn't be more wrong. Try a Level 8 Electronic Engineering or Computer Science in an I.T and see how it compares to doing something like Business in Trinity. Person doing Business probably wouldn't get past the first year in the I.T!

eternal

Darpa wrote: »

Pity, you could have done something better according to the points theory.

Like what? I got into Uni. I got into an IT?

eternal

lickme wrote: »

You couldn't be more wrong. Try a Level 8 Electronic Engineering or Computer Science in an I.T and see how it compares to doing something like Business in Trinity. Person doing Business probably wouldn't get past the first year in the I.T!

Read the thread.

Bridge93

lickme wrote: »

You couldn't be more wrong. Try a Level 8 Electronic Engineering or Computer Science in an I.T and see how it compares to doing something like Business in Trinity. Person doing Business probably wouldn't get past the first year in the I.T!

Probably because they have no interest in computer science or engineering more than anything else. If they did they most likely would have had it in ucd or wherever top of their CAO.

Hollister11

I don't go to a uni or an IT. National college of Ireland

eternal

Hollister11 wrote: »

I don't go to a uni or an IT. National college of Ireland

UCC and NUIG are part of the NCOI?

Hollister11

eternal wrote: »

UCC and NUIG are part of the NCOI?

What ?

eternal

Hollister11 wrote: »

What ?

Sorry, I made a mistake between national college and national university.

wat24

I think a lot of the snobbery is due to the fact that years ago many people couldn't afford to go to university after school so people that did go were seen as being very well off and posh and that image seems to still exist. I was a student in UCC a few years back and the most common joke heard around at the time was 'ABC 123 now I can go to CIT' 😠in turn the CIT students would say to us that we were posh and stuff like that all just slagging each other and having a laugh but some people seemed to genuinely believe the stereotypes.

wat24

Although I have to say I'm from Waterford and I went to college in UCC to do nursing in 2008 because I wanted to move away for the college lifestyle. Points at the time for nursing in WIT were a good bit less than UCC but people to this day still ask me why I didn't go to WIT was it because I didn't have enough points for there that I had to go to Cork. So in many people's eyes I was seen as an underachiever for going to a university lol people just have set ideas on these things God knows where there get them from

kiwiq

I decided to do an IT degree in Tallaght over the universities while my mates did similar courses in the uni's. They all seemed a bit dismayed at the amount of hands on experience I acquired. I found employers very enthusiastic when they realised I had done my degree at IT Tallaght, so make of that what you will.

ThinkProgress

I chose a large university to study at because I wanted to feel the atmosphere mostly.

I just liked the idea of all the famous old alumni and well respected lecturers.

It helped because I think it inspired me to reach my potential. I'm not sure I would have been as motivated in a small IT.

(Not that I'm snobbish towards them. I've heard good things from people about them)

DiarmAFC

The best higher education institution in the world is an IT

Wompa1

Most places don't give a rats @ss where you got your degree from. So any snobbery is pretty f'kin stupid. Don't worry about it. When reality sets in and life kicks those people around for a while, that mindset will be lost.

Also, those people will likely work with others from 'lesser' schools and get blown away by how much smarter, hard working and ambitious they are. (Obviously doesn't apply for all, but you can bet there will be some)

mariaalice

The problem is that the IT's have moved away for what they were originally set up for which was to provide a good third level technical education not to be min universities, years ago IT's courses often finished with a diploma and people when to work and may or may not have gone on to degree level in the future.

If you looked at something like engineering you would have both technicians and engineers.


There is a very good article about over qualification in Saturdays Irish times something like 30% of Irish people are over qualified for the job they have.

There are probably too many people going to third level and too many people expecting IT's to provide them with a university type education.

mariaalice

Wompa1 wrote: »

Most places don't give a rats @ss where you got your degree from. So any snobbery is pretty f'kin stupid. Don't worry about it. When reality sets in and life kicks those people around for a while, that mindset will be lost.

Also, those people will likely work with others from 'lesser' schools and get blown away by how much smarter, hard working and ambitious they are. (Obviously doesn't apply for all, but you can bet there will be some)

Yes but if you have a consultant engineers office you need both the technicians and the engineers to run the place.

padd b1975

DiarmAFC wrote: »

The best higher education institution in the world is an IT

University Of Life.

My brother went to a university for three years, but decided to finish his fourth year in an IT; he learned more in that one year than in his entire three years in the university, all down to the fact that in the IT, everything was far more practical based, whereas everything in the university was theory.

For the record - I went to an IT and loved it.

The J Stands for Jay

padd b1975 wrote: »

University Of Life.

Pffft, that's for losers, University of YouTube is where it's at.

Bubbaclaus

ITs are for the people that wear tracksuits even on days when they aren't engaging in sports.

razorblunt

I swapped a University for an IT after my first year as I didn't like the course and I preferred the one in the IT.
I had half a dozen friends and family telling me not to do it, "wasting your time", "CV will be thrown in the bin" and all that good stuff.
Went back to see my old Vice Principal as he was the man to know with regard to CAO form filling so I asked for a quick refresher, he was pure UCC head, used to still wear the tie to school, put my mind at ease and told me it's probably the best decision I'll ever make. He was right.

There definitely is some snobbery still around and I've overseen Graduate recruitment campaigns where someone's CV got binned as it came from a CIT, the numpty didn't realise my background. He found himself in a HR meeting later that week.

If you start applying for jobs in the UK they couldn't give a rats arse where you come from.

Eugene Norman

eternal wrote: »

Some people are losers. They sweep the streets all day, other people are doctors and surgeons. Have you ever differentiated the level of conversation you would have with either person? One wants to talk about what Mary did last week in her underpants while the other is very polite and determined.

True, The doctors and surgeons I know are definite gossips.

anncoates

I'm working in IT (software) for 14 years now. I honestly don't know where 99% of my colleagues went to college.

It's a first world concern for a certain age group.

The Corinthian

To begin with the universities are older and that will always attach a certain level of status to them.

Secondly, as someone already pointed out, IT's were not designed originally to be universities; they didn't award degrees and degrees are seen are worth more than diplomas (which they are because anyone can legally award a diploma).

Now they do, due to demand, although half the time, even then, the degree they award is via one of the universities.

Then entry requirements for IT's are lower than universities. You'd have to be an idiot to think this isn't going to have a baring on how they're viewed or that many go to IT's because they didn't get the points for a university.

And finally universities are better recognized abroad.

As a result, a sense of elitism from universities is inevitable - I'm surprised the OP even needed to ask the question.

Aglomerado

Birneybau wrote: »

I love TITS.

Murt? is that you?

lickme

I think people are missing the real picture. Companies don't give a flying fart whether you went Trinity or DIT. College only prepares you for say 20% of what is needed in the workplace. Companies don't care and I think the snobbery is gone to be honest since graduates are struggling to find jobs. After two years of expierence your degree means absolute ****e to an employer.
Waterford I.T has the best Business course in Ireland and the employment rates after graduation are through the roof. The I.Ts in Dublin are known to be the best computing degrees in Ireland. I'm on my phone but will post statistics later.

razorblunt

The Corinthian wrote: »

To begin with the universities are older and that will always attach a certain level of status to them.

Secondly, as someone already pointed out, IT's were not designed originally to be universities; they didn't award degrees and degrees are seen are worth more than diplomas (which they are because anyone can legally award a diploma).

Now they do, due to demand, although half the time, even then, the degree they award is via one of the universities.

Then entry requirements for IT's are lower than universities. You'd have to be an idiot to think this isn't going to have a baring on how they're viewed or that many go to IT's because they didn't get the points for a university.

And finally universities are better recognized abroad.

As a result, a sense of elitism from universities is inevitable - I'm surprised the OP even needed to ask the question.

Disagree completely on that one, to a foreign company/employeer they wouldn't know the difference between CIT/UCC or LIT/UL.

valoren

Lollipop95 wrote: »

As opposed to universities? I've often read for example that people should aim to go to NUIG instead of GMIT - even though both colleges have great employment rates and GMIT is considered one of the best colleges in the country.

So why if you go to a university are you deemed, smarter, I guess?

There is definitely an element of snobbery at play.

Snobbish Parents of the "My son Brian, the engineer" ilk would certainly favour a University for their children. This snobbery then extends through the generations.

I can imagine the scenario.

"Oh Brian got the points for Engineering in Trinity, we're so delighted. How did Richard get on?"

"Oh he's going to do Maths at the Institute of Technology"

*stifled laugh*

"Oh, DIT is it now?"

"No, Massachusetts"

<BSOD>

ardmacha

lickme wrote: »

I think people are missing the real picture. Companies don't give a flying fart whether you went Trinity or DIT. College only prepares you for say 20% of what is needed in the workplace. Companies don't care and I think the snobbery is gone to be honest since graduates are struggling to find jobs. After two years of expierence your degree means absolute ****e to an employer.
Waterford I.T has the best Business course in Ireland and the employment rates after graduation are through the roof. The I.Ts in Dublin are known to be the best computing degrees in Ireland. I'm on my phone but will post statistics later.

razorblunt wrote:

Disagree completely on that one, to a foreign company/employeer they wouldn't know the difference between CIT/UCC or LIT/UL.

Two completely naive statements here. Of course the calibre of the institution matters to the employers, although as you say the calibre of the applicant is also important.

It is simple enough, the better places get the better students, and as a consequence those places can rev up the content of their courses. With these good students they have a good reputation with employers and with those good courses they can get accredited by international organisations and those accreditations are recognised by international employers.

lickme

ardmacha wrote: »

Two completely naive statements here. Of course the calibre of the institution matters to the employers, although as you say the calibre of the applicant is also important.

It is simple enough, the better places get the better students, and as a consequence those places can rev up the content of their courses. With these good students they have a good reputation with employers and with those good courses they can get accredited by international organisations and those accreditations are recognised by international employers.

Do you think every university course is better than the same course in an I.T cause that's what your coming across like.

mariaalice

valoren wrote: »

There is definitely an element of snobbery at play.

Snobbish Parents of the "My son Brian, the engineer" ilk would certainly favour a University for their children. This snobbery then extends through the generations.

I wonder if they would be so snobby towards the neighbours if they're child went to MIT for example.

Thats not correct, snobbiness is not going to be a consideration when looking for employees its the real wold where qualification and experience counts, for example having a preference for someone from say Bolton street and UCD, Trinity is just that a preference usually because the employer went there themselves or are in a professional organisation or they know from years of experience what sort of person they will get sometimes there is a little bit of 'we are known for taking the best' and thats a sort of self fulfilling prophecy because in years to come when that graduate becomes a director they will go back to Bolton st or where ever and be 'known for taking the best'.

That doesn't mean every one else wont get a job and its noting to do with being snobbery, Ireland is a very small place and you could end up working any where in the world and in the end experience trumpets everything.

blackwhite

Nesta99 wrote: »

After graduating from accounting it is necessary to take professional exams to become a registered accountant with either ACCA OR CIMA. There a 9 or 10 modules to be taken and examined. Of all the accountancy courses available the professional bodies grant exemptions to some of those who have studied for an undergraduate degree. If you graduate from DCU of DkIT a greater number of exemptions are granted than any other institutions. Hence the professional bodies consider the undergraduates from DCU and DkIT on a par with eachother or better skilled than those from any other institution.

You really don't understand what you're talking about there.

DCU and DKIT students get greater exemptions form ACCA and CIMA because the colleges made a conscious decision to tailor the curricula of their courses to follow the specific requirements of the ACCA and CIMA professional programs - nothing to do with the quality, or otherwise, of students coming from those institutions.

Most of the third level institutions in Ireland that run accountancy/finance programs have focused on the requirements of the ACA qualification (Chartered Accountants Ireland), i.e. the one usually required by the largest accountancy firms.

If you want to see how the market assesses the relative quality of graduates from the various institutions, you'd be better served by checking to see what institutions provide the greatest number of graduates into the grad programs of the large firms, and into the grad programs of Ireland's PLCs.
(hint, DKIT isn't in the top 10).

ardmacha

lickme wrote: »

Do you think every university course is better than the same course in an I.T cause that's what your coming across like.

No, not every university courses is better than every IT course, but most university courses are better than most IT courses.

mariaalice

ardmacha wrote: »

No, not every university courses is better than every IT course, but most university courses are better than most IT courses.

Depends if it is a technical or engineering area not everyone one in the world is studying accountancy or business.