Why is there sometimes snobbery towards IT's?

The Corinthian

razorblunt wrote: »

Disagree completely on that one, to a foreign company/employeer they wouldn't know the difference between CIT/UCC or LIT/UL.

Except they would know that one is a university and the other is not. Here IT's would likely be classified as Fachschule, which are not considered as high up as universities, and so those who qualified from one would end up being viewed as having gone to one.

mariaalice

The Corinthian wrote: »

Except they would know that one is a university and the other is not. Here IT's would likely be classified as Fachschule, which are not considered as high up as universities, and so those who qualified from one would end up being viewed as having gone to one.

IT's are not universities they are suppose to offer a different sort of education to universities, not superior nor inferior just different. This is part of this whole issue of over qualification and everyone going to third level.

razorblunt

The Corinthian wrote: »

Except they would know that one is a university and the other is not. Here IT's would likely be classified as Fachschule, which are not considered as high up as universities, and so those who qualified from one would end up being viewed as having gone to one.

Fachschule don't offer the same level of qualifications though do they? You have ITs and Colleges both offering degrees in Ireland, if there were diplomas and certs vs degrees your argument would hold true.

For example no one will argue a 2 yr Cert in Accounting from CIT has the same merit as a 4 year Accounting Degree from UCC. A degree from both though, I'd, personally weight as equal and would factor in results rather than just the name of the college.

mariaalice

razorblunt wrote: »

Fachschule don't offer the same level of qualifications though do they? You have ITs and Colleges both offering degrees in Ireland, if there were diplomas and certs vs degrees your argument would hold true.

For example no one will argue a 2 yr Cert in Accounting from CIT has the same merit as a 4 year Accounting Degree from UCC. A degree from both though, I'd, personally wait as equal and would factor in results rather than just the name of the college.

'Being known for taking the best' also mean the best leaving cert as well.

The Corinthian

razorblunt wrote: »

Fachschule don't offer the same level of qualifications though do they? You have ITs and Colleges both offering degrees in Ireland, if there were diplomas and certs vs degrees your argument would hold true.

Do you really think a German HR department cares if IT's offer degrees or not? They're just put in the same box as Fachschule regardless because they're not universities.

For example no one will argue a 2 yr Cert in Accounting from CIT has the same merit as a 4 year Accounting Degree from UCC. A degree from both though, I'd, personally wait as equal and would factor in results rather than just the name of the college.

And if your personal approach becomes the international standard then you'll have a point.

Lollipop95

eternal wrote: »

Basically the ones struggling with 250 points are looking to horse themselves in anywhere while students with 400 odd will have more choice. It's not rocket science.

Completely wrong, in my case anyways! I got 250 points in my leaving cert and
the ITs were at the top of my list. I was VERY selective when choosing and certainly didn't want to "horse" myself in to just ANY COURSE. I had the points but not the grade in maths so I had do a PLC. I'm now hopefully going to GMIT in September and most of my course choices are IT ones - purely because the course I want to do is not catered for by universities

Lollipop95

When I was in school one of my teachers made a comment about UCD. She said if you do a course like Arts in UCD you're guaranteed to meet a bunch of snobs - no idea if this is true but majority of the class seemed to agree

The Corinthian

Lollipop95 wrote: »

When I was in school one of my teachers made a comment about UCD. She said if you do a course like Arts in UCD you're guaranteed to meet a bunch of snobs

If you do any course in the humanities, you're probably guaranteed to meet a bunch of snobs, just as doing a course in any engineering discipline will likely cause you to meet people with personal hygiene issues.

no idea if this is true but majority of the class seemed to agree

Were the majority of the class better informed than you?

Lollipop95

The Corinthian wrote: »

If you do any course in the humanities, you're probably guaranteed to meet a bunch of snobs, just as doing a course in any engineering discipline will likely cause you to meet people with personal hygiene issues.

Were the majority of the class better informed than you?

We were only going by what the teacher told us. By majority, I mean the ones that engaged in the debate (i.e most of the class) don't know how the rest felt because they didn't offer an opinion. One person said the people at UCD would probably look down on culchies because of the accents. Our teacher agreed. Though funnily enough, one of the girls that agreed students at UCD would be snobs, is now in Trinity

SoupyNorman

I would say University snobbery still exists in pockets, you’ll have companies who advertise as such (I think FB or Google say ‘Degree from leading Irish University’ or something like that).

It’s a companies prerogative to apply whatever filters (within legal boundaries) they like when recruiting.

In my experience however, the degree I got from the IT I went to has never held me back. The first job I got was with one of the top US banks there was a Trinity graduate and UCD graduate contending the position too as far as I can remember.

You need to focus on a good result, a 2.1 is the minimum employers look for (in most disciplines) on a CV. These days I interview candidates from time to time and I really have no care where they went to college, I look at the result and I ask questions about what they got from their time at college.

You need to believe me when I say that the degree is just the piece of paper you need that permits you to apply for the job, it’s you that ultimately gets you the job. Employers do not want to hire a dope, it reflects poorly on them for hiring a sap and it affects staff morale if they need to carry that person. Communication and social skills are highly sought after, these are not necessarily teachable at 3rd level.

Geuze

eternal wrote: »

. The hours in ITs are longer and the lecturers make less money so are always in bad form.

This is not quite true.

AL staff in IoTs will become full L staff in time, whereas uni lecturers may not progress at the same pace, and so would earn less.

The Corinthian

Lollipop95 wrote: »

?? We were only going by what the teacher told us.

I know, which would mean the rest of your class was as uninformed on the subject as you've admitted you were. So that the majority of them 'agreed' really amounts to nothing more than their ability to mindlessly bleat in unison.

One person said the people at UCD would probably look down on culchies because of the accents. Our teacher agreed.

That's true, but you'll probably get that in any Dublin college. You used to get the same thing with Northside-Southside divide, even between Dubliners.

At the end of the day, they're still kids - it's not like you do your LC, go to college and are magically gain wisdom and maturity overnight.

razorblunt

The Corinthian wrote: »

Do you really think a German HR department cares if IT's offer degrees or not? They're just put in the same box as Fachschule regardless because they're not universities.

And if your personal approach becomes the international standard then you'll have a point.

Do you think German HR Depts care if someone is from CIT or UCC? There's examples at Audi and SAP saying otherwise.
We're never going to meet in the middle of this anyway.

Who cares about what German HR departments think?

Taco Chips

Everyone wants to feel special and like their education is the same as everyone elses. It's not and its a bit silly to pretend like there isn't a huge difference in the academic calibre in general of students in ITs and unis. Note I said in general. ITs do a good job at certain types of training; accountants, technical jobs etc... but the standards are quite variable and the bar can be shockingly low when it comes to assessment and quality of work. Plenty of bluffers in universities too but as a general rule of thumb if you hold up say a law degree from and IT and a Uni next to each other there is no comparison.

razorblunt

Deleted User wrote: »

Who cares about what German HR departments think?

Hey! Companies revolve around HR Depts, we'd all be nothing without them ... nothing. At least that's the way all HR Depts I've seen have given as an impression.

razorblunt

Taco Chips wrote: »

Everyone wants to feel special and like their education is the same as everyone elses. It's not and its a bit silly to pretend like there isn't a huge difference in the academic calibre in general of students in ITs and unis. Note I said in general. ITs do a good job at certain types of training; accountants, technical jobs etc... but the standards are quite variable and the bar can be shockingly low when it comes to assessment and quality of work. Plenty of bluffers in universities too but as a general rule of thumb if you hold up say a law degree from and IT and a Uni next to each other there is no comparison.

What IT offers Law? Genuine question.

AdamD

Lollipop95 wrote: »

When I was in school one of my teachers made a comment about UCD. She said if you do a course like Arts in UCD you're guaranteed to meet a bunch of snobs - no idea if this is true but majority of the class seemed to agree

The majority of the class agreed? Given that they're in the class none of them would actually have experience of that course, superb logic.

Ziphius

razorblunt wrote: »

What IT offers Law? Genuine question.

Carlow.

foggy_lad

Lollipop95 wrote: »

As opposed to universities? I've often read for example that people should aim to go to NUIG instead of GMIT - even though both colleges have great employment rates and GMIT is considered one of the best colleges in the country.

So why if you go to a university are you deemed, smarter, I guess?

It is because they are still seen by many snobs as just a very small step up from the local tech/vocational school which in many areas don't have the best academic reputations.

The Corinthian

razorblunt wrote: »

Do you think German HR Depts care if someone is from CIT or UCC?

I know that as a rule they'll rate the 'U' higher and presume that an IT is a lesser school from their perspective.

There's examples at Audi and SAP saying otherwise.

Go ahead. More than happy to see them.

We're never going to meet in the middle of this anyway.

Then why did you bother responding then?

Deleted User wrote: »

Who cares about what German HR departments think?

Anyone looking to work in Germany, I expect. Oddly enough, emigration from Ireland isn't all that rare, so it might matter to some.

The Corinthian

There's numerous reasons as to why I think ITs are better than universities -

1: Class sizes are smaller
I was in a course with starting 50, graduating in 4th year with only 14 of the original classmates. This means more one-on-one time with lecturers, who actually have an interest in whether you succeed or not. They help you as much as they can and push you as well. The biggest benefit to this is that I was able to use them as a referee before I attained other ones. There's little or no chance of getting the same in a class of 300

2: More practical work, less theory-based study
As I said previously, my brother learned more in 1 year in an IT than he did in three years in his course at a university. He is now one of the foremost experts in the world in his field - all due to his experience in the IT. And this was all because of the fact he actually did things, instead of reading about them. My own college work was 90% practical, 10% theory.

3: Cops generally prefer ITs to universities
OK, this doesn't have much to do with anything, but thought I'd throw it in. Numerous cops have told me that they prefer ITs over universities when it comes to things like RAG week - 90% of the arrests would come from universities.

4: So much less snobbery
There is a snobbery that exists in universities that you just don't get in ITs.

I don't really care if jobs look down on your if you're from an IT or a university, because in my experience; it doesn't matter a damn. It really doesn't. What matters most is experience. If you have adequate experience, then you might as well burn and piss on your degree.

The Corinthian wrote: »

Anyone looking to work in Germany, I expect. Oddly enough, emigration from Ireland isn't all that rare, so it might matter to some.

I need to start using sarcasm tags. Or get better at bringing sarcasm through my posts, because I don't really care all that much.

Aspiring

[Deleted User] wrote: »

There is a snobbery that exists in universities that you just don't get in ITs.

What are you on about?

The Corinthian

Deleted User wrote: »

There is a snobbery that exists in universities that you just don't get in ITs.

Reading through this thread, there appears to be an inverse snobbery that exists in ITs that you just don't get in universities too.

Why do people in Ireland get so hung up on snobbery? Even the idea of an honours system get's everyone in arms. Seriously, why would anyone bother about a couple of D4's in UCD or TCD? Everyone is three generations away from a potato farm in Ireland anyway.

As to qualifications, as long as you want to stick to the English-speaking World, then experience will ultimately be more important, but beyond those shores attitudes are still a bit 'old fashioned' and while experience is still important and eventually trumps the pieces of paper, it's a lot harder to get ahead, and impossible to start off, without them.

razorblunt

The Corinthian wrote: »

Then why did you bother responding then?

It's a discussion board, we're discussing it.

Generally the snobbery works both ways for folks that know nothing about the other side of the fence.
Having seen both sides I also don't buy into this "Universities tell you how to do it, ITs show you how" nonsense either.
I've seen students scraping by to kill 4 years, poor lecturers, good course, bad courses in both places I went to. Students applying themselves will tend to do well anyway.

Let's not open the can of worms that is internal snobbery i.e. Arts courses etc!!

The Corinthian

razorblunt wrote: »

It's a discussion board, we're discussing it.

But you also said there's no point in discussing it

Or maybe you wanted to get your word in and then claim there's no point discussing it so that you could walk away from the discussion having thrown in the last word.

mariaalice

I have just realised this is such a self absorbed first world problem, people from a well off western contray with third level degrees complaining about how their education is perceived by others.

I would hazard a guess that having a degree and living in a well off western democracy already puts you well ahead in the world we live in.

razorblunt

The Corinthian wrote: »

But you also said there's no point in discussing it

Or maybe you wanted to get your word in and then claim there's no point discussing it so that you could walk away from the discussion having thrown in the last word.

Not at all, I was moving on from German HR Depts though.

razorblunt

mariaalice wrote: »

I have just realised this is such a self absorbed first world problem, people from a well off western contray with third level degree complaining about how their education is perceived by others.

I would hazard a guess that having a degree and living in a well off western democracy already puts you well ahead in the world we live in.

Wouldn't that depend on where the degree came from though?

Son Of A Vidic

Lollipop95 wrote: »

Why is there sometimes snobbery towards IT's?

Because **** exist I suppose.

Geniass

mariaalice wrote: »

I have just realised this is such a self absorbed first world problem

Well, it is a first world* message forum.










*technically not going on the original meaning, but is under current parlance.

AdamD

mariaalice wrote: »

I have just realised this is such a self absorbed first world problem, people from a well off western contray with third level degrees complaining about how their education is perceived by others.

I would hazard a guess that having a degree and living in a well off western democracy already puts you well ahead in the world we live in.

Not really relevant to the discussion though, is it?

Geniass

Question...

How would ye rate an IT General Arts, Archaeology or Medicine degree?

Knasher

I think it is going to vary by course to be honest. There is quite a demand for workers in my field at the moment, so it really doesn't matter if you are qualified from an IT or a Uni, it will get your foot in the door either way, and after that you will be assessed by the company. If you are qualified in an area with an oversupply, then the HR department will probably use the place you qualified as a shortcut for reducing the number of interviews they need to conduct. Unfair as it is, you're fooling yourself if you don't think that happens.

Once you have a bit of experience under your belt, then all bets are off.

The Corinthian

razorblunt wrote: »

Not at all, I was moving on from German HR Depts though.

Indeed. That was it. I'm sure that's all it was.

razorblunt

The Corinthian wrote: »

Indeed. That was it. I'm sure that's all it was.

Nice passive aggressive response, from a Mod too.

The Corinthian

razorblunt wrote: »

Nice passive aggressive response

Do try to tell the difference between sarcasm and passive aggression.

razorblunt wrote: »

from a Mod too.

LOL

Anita Blow

TBH in my 4 years in Trinity I don't think I heard anyone mention an IT or college once in any sort of derogatory manner. I think it's just some image from decades ago that has stuck but it doesn't have any sort of bearing on reality, in my experience.

In fact I think it's the opposite in Ireland, where reverse snobbery seems to be more common.

razorblunt

Anita Blow wrote: »

TBH in my 4 years in Trinity I don't think I heard anyone mention an IT or college once in any sort of derogatory manner. I think it's just some image from decades ago that has stuck but it doesn't have any sort of bearing on reality, in my experience.

In fact I think it's the opposite in Ireland, where reverse snobbery seems to be more common.

The reverse snobbery is probably indicative of a chip on someone's shoulder though than anything else. But it definitely does ring through.

The Corinthian

Anita Blow wrote: »

TBH in my 4 years in Trinity I don't think I heard anyone mention an IT or college once in any sort of derogatory manner. I think it's just some image from decades ago that has stuck but it doesn't have any sort of bearing on reality, in my experience.

I do think that it is largely based upon what IT's were twenty or thirty years ago. TBH, in my time in UCD, I don't recall any mention of IT's either. If anything the more common target would have been Trinity - I remember an L&H debate that had some speakers over from the Hist. One of them commented on how they were happy to be able to visit Belfield Airport, to which a heckle retorted "at least we're going somewhere".

In fact I think it's the opposite in Ireland, where reverse snobbery seems to be more common.

It's endemic in Ireland. Always has been.

We're one of the few European countries that has absolutely no honours system. The mere mention of (republican) knighthoods will have people up in arms at the thought of someone being seen as 'better' than anyone else. We're not even allowed to accept an honour from another country without government permission (the only country to impose this). Additionally our default position is that anyone with wealth or success must have gained it through nefarious means (many do, but we just presume it).

I suspect it's a throwback of British occupation, where any recognition of hierarchy (that didn't involve a priest) was some form of collaboration. The Greeks have a similar attitude, probably for similar historical reasons.