Swim races being cut/curtailed... can anything be done?

Kurt_Godel

Rather than just complain every time a swim is shortened/cancelled/made easier, I want to see if there are any positive improvements that could be suggested at the next AGM, in order that more races are run on their advertised course. Already this year two NS races have had their swim courses changed on the day of the race. The TI view on water safety is that the water safety of the weakest swimmer must be considered by the Safety officials, and that water temperatures for each distance must follow ITU rules.

I've been to several races where the swim has been cut or cancelled, bringing with it inevitable cheers from those untrained for the swim and in brand new wetsuits. One thing I'd like to see (if safety really is an issue) is that everyone would have to at least sign a Swim Competency Cert before each event, expressing that they have swam at least 750m OW in the preceding month. This would allow race organisers to assume every entrant can swim the minimum Tri distance without issue, and should help indemnify them from any safety issues brought about by very weak swimmers unable to complete the course.

Regarding water temperatures, the ITU temp rules are more stringent than the neighbouring BTF temp rules. Lough Cutra, for instance, was swam in colder conditions than an Oly might have allowed, and there were no issues. I'd propose that BTF water temperature rules are more applicable to our part of the world, and would allow more races to go ahead, given our expected climate.

Its a thankless job organising and officiating at races, and my hat goes off to anyone who does so. This isn't to criticise any difficult call they have to make (and stand by) on race day, rather a way to see if anything can be done to keep more races at their advertised distances, while also keeping everyone safe. It's to be expected that in Ireland rough conditions will sometimes force the hand of race organisers, however I've been to quite a few shortened races where conditions should have been well within that capabilities of any competent swimmer.

Mandatory Swim courses; duathlon option for weak swimmers; exit pontoon at halfway for NS races; me to just get over myself... lots of options. If anyone has any comments or proposals to add, please do so here.

Oryx

Swim competency, and a strict cutoff causing a dnf will soon sort the men from the boys. But tbh, I cant see RDs taking this on. Because it will also cut the entry down. And its all about entry fees, by necessity.

catweazle

Money will be at the heart of any decision here Kurt.

TI will certainly not want to put off anyone entering a triathlon by increasing the barriers to participate, they will lose out in one day licences and potential membership fees. They also need to justify their government grants and soothe their sponsors by trying to increase membership numbers year on year

The loud cheers you hear when the swim is shortened is because a lot of the entrants are either newbies to the sport or box tickers and don't stay in the sport long term. They are more than likely going to retain the members that are three / four years at it regardless of swims being shortened or not. You have been railing about this situation for a few years now but you are still hanging in there

You have to keep the volunteers in mind too, I know that's why Swinford went back to Olympic distance as they were struggling to get the volunteer numbers to spend the entire day marshaling for a 1/2 Ironman, so any new proposals will have to keep these in mind too

BTH

I remember having to sign swim competency certs before races. People just sign and ignore. Waste of time.

Ceepo

Kurt_Godel wrote: »

Rather than just complain every time a swim is shortened/cancelled/made easier, I want to see if there are any positive improvements that could be suggested at the next AGM, in order that more races are run on their advertised course. Already this year two NS races have had their swim courses changed on the day of the race. The TI view on water safety is that the water safety of the weakest swimmer must be considered by the Safety officials, and that water temperatures for each distance must follow ITU rules.

I've been to several races where the swim has been cut or cancelled, bringing with it inevitable cheers from those untrained for the swim and in brand new wetsuits. One thing I'd like to see (if safety really is an issue) is that everyone would have to at least sign a Swim Competency Cert before each event, expressing that they have swam at least 750m OW in the preceding month. This would allow race organisers to assume every entrant can swim the minimum Tri distance without issue, and should help indemnify them from any safety issues brought about by very weak swimmers unable to complete the course.

Regarding water temperatures, the ITU temp rules are more stringent than the neighbouring BTF temp rules. Lough Cutra, for instance, was swam in colder conditions than an Oly might have allowed, and there were no issues. I'd propose that BTF water temperature rules are more applicable to our part of the world, and would allow more races to go ahead, given our expected climate.

Its a thankless job organising and officiating at races, and my hat goes off to anyone who does so. This isn't to criticise any difficult call they have to make (and stand by) on race day, rather a way to see if anything can be done to keep more races at their advertised distances, while also keeping everyone safe. It's to be expected that in Ireland rough conditions will sometimes force the hand of race organisers, however I've been to quite a few shortened races where conditions should have been well within that capabilities of any competent swimmer.

Mandatory Swim courses; duathlon option for weak swimmers; exit pontoon at halfway for NS races; me to just get over myself... lots of options. If anyone has any comments or proposals to add, please do so here.

Regarding water temperature. It has been dropped to 11c this year.
So that's a start

mossym

BTH wrote: »

I remember having to sign swim competency certs before races. People just sign and ignore. Waste of time.

yup, and they won't indemnify anything/anyone. disclaimers like that won't last 10 minutes in a court if anything went wrong

68 lost souls

Competency certs is one way.

For NS races if there is adverse weather effects and they want to change it for weak swimmers then they should run two routes one for NS and one for weak swimmers. Any one that does the shortened course doesn't count towards the NS and can still tick the box essentially turning it into a try a tri or similar.

mossym

68 lost souls wrote: »

For NS races if there is adverse weather effects and they want to change it for weak swimmers then they should run two routes one for NS and one for weak swimmers. Any one that does the shortened course doesn't count towards the NS and can still tick the box essentially turning it into a try a tri or similar.

most clubs wouldn't be able to support 2 courses, or the time and marshalls to run two separate races to accommodate that

Kurt_Godel

Ceepo wrote: »

Regarding water temperature. It has been dropped to 11c this year.
So that's a start

That's hugely positive. Do you have any links to it? The ITU competition rules still say <13˚means cancel.

I looked up the MOG, a swim proficiency declaration is assumed before each race:

Swimming Conduct
a. Entry to any open water event sanctioned under these Rules assumes
conformity with the following as a declaration of swim proficiency. The
competitor must:
• Have completed a continuous pool swim of 1.5 times the length of the
competition swim within 30 days of the event or
• Have completed a continuous open water swim of at least two-thirds of the
length of the competition swim within 30 days of the event, in water of the
same temperature
• Understand safety and rescue procedures and their own limitations
41
• Be aware of the route, its length, the depth and temperature of the water,
the direction of significant currents and any hazards.
• Where applicable, are aware that a mass start carries intrinsic difficulties,
which can be frightening and present risks, which could include pushing and
kicking.
• Be aware that providing a signature at registration confirms knowledge of
and acceptance of this swim proficiency declaration.
• Be aware of the potential health risks associated with open water swimming,
including those of a bacterial nature.

cart man

mossym wrote: »

most clubs wouldn't be able to support 2 courses, or the time and marshalls to run two separate races to accommodate that

I don't think there would have to be 2 courses if it is just the swim which is the issue. The first wave with the competent swimmers goes off as planned, the others go in the next wave with a shortened swim. The time between waves for the change would be increased possibly by an extra 10mins, but as the swim is shortened the weaker swimmer would be out earlier and have more energy for the bike/run so the total time on course may end up being the same???

I was in Carlow and was really disappointed by the change to the swim (even with a new 1km pb ), I agree with Kurt in that it is not fair on those that train properly for the event for it to be dumbed down to the lowest level, but understand the need for safety, encouraging new participants etc.

Fair play to Kurt for trying to find an idea that he can bring forth change.

griffin100

I've been lucky when it comes to swims, in 7 seasons and lots of races I've had one swim cancellation due to water quality issues, one due to bad weather (the right call) and one swim shortened due to rough seas (a swim that I daresay would now be cancelled, it was very rough).

When I started racing you had to sign a swim competency declaration but I haven't seen one of those in a good while.

Given the nature of our weather even in summer you can't stop swims being curtailed. You can reduce the risk by selecting your races to avoid high risk races but that's not ideal either (Galway 70.3 IM was always going to be a 'risky' swim in my book).

I think that TI and race directors have to get tough with people who have no business entering ow tris. Evidence of swim competency should be sought for sea (and up river?) swims. If the Womens Mini Marathon can stratify tens of thousands of entrants into runners and walkers based on the former having to show 'competency' then so can tri surely. How certification would work is difficult to assess though......self certification could work in some circumstances (getting a certified swim coach to certify you perhaps?).......maybe ODL's for sea swims have to show previous competency......no sea swims for year 1 TI members unless competency shown......


I'm all for weaker swimmers entering races, we all started somewhere and like it or not this is tri and not ow swimming and weaker swimmers will always enter - but when I talk about weaker swimmers I'm talking about the 20min 750m swimmer, i.e. the type of swimmer I was in my first tri. What needs to be weeded out of races is the non swimmer who thinks they can wing it with a wetsuit as a buoyancy aid on the day - some of the reports from Athy this year of people dragging themselves along ropes and walking along the bank are taking the piss.

tunney

Lets call a spade a spade, if Ireland introduced the same medical clearance cert system as France for endurance events the problem would be solved.

Potential competitor: Doctor I need a clearance cert for a triathlon?
Doctor: You got to be kidding??? Your body just isn't up to it. Do some brisk walking for a year, get a stress test and then we can talk.

griffin100

tunney wrote: »

Lets call a spade a spade, if Ireland introduced the same medical clearance cert system as France for endurance events the problem would be solved.

Potential competitor: Doctor I need a clearance cert for a triathlon?
Doctor: You got to be kidding??? Your body just isn't up to it. Do some brisk walking for a year, get a stress test and then we can talk.

Patient: Doctor I need a sick cert for work
Doctor: But there's nothing wrong with you?
Patient: I'll give you €60
Doctor: Here you go......

Not a bad idea, although it might remove a few regular posters from the sport

speedyj

The water temp issues are one thing - if the BTF numbers with lower temps are working for them then they'd work for us too. Sounds from other replies like lower limits may already be in place, so that's a good start.

Re competency though, how does one define it? It's not a pace thing IMO, there are plenty of 15-20 min 750m swimmers who'd have no problems comfortably completing in rough water. From the organisers view it must be tough - imaging 200+ in a wave heading into rough open water, how many safety canoes do you need to have peace of mind?

Ideally organisers would be a bit more firm and leave the decision to the participant on whether to start or not - where IMO it should rest. But they'll only do this if they're covered legally, and morally insofar as for example having agreement from an independent judge such as the race referee.

sconhome

Same way that the Women's Mini Marathon 10k has a qualifying time to be a walker or jogger.

I proposed it in a blog post a while back that there should be tiered racing with qualifying year to year. If you race sprint your record shows competence over 750m, move on to Olympic.

Record show Olympic in year 2 move on to middle distance in year 3 etc etc.

Oryx

AKW wrote: »

Same way that the Women's Mini Marathon 10k has a qualifying time to be a walker or jogger.

I proposed it in a blog post a while back that there should be tiered racing with qualifying year to year. If you race sprint your record shows competence over 750m, move on to Olympic.

Record show Olympic in year 2 move on to middle distance in year 3 etc etc.

While I agree with competency, I disagree with this. Too restrictive.

Oryx

tunney wrote: »

Lets call a spade a spade, if Ireland introduced the same medical clearance cert system as France for endurance events the problem would be solved.

Potential competitor: Doctor I need a clearance cert for a triathlon?
Doctor: You got to be kidding??? Your body just isn't up to it. Do some brisk walking for a year, get a stress test and then we can talk.

Or like I got told. "Why would you do that? Stick to some nice easy 10ks."

There arent enough rolleyes in the world. :rolleyes:

sconhome

Oryx wrote: »

While I agree with competency, I disagree with this. Too restrictive.

I think the context in which I wrote the original was for TI sanctioned events to do it in this structured way. All other events as they please.

speedyj

AKW wrote: »

Record show Olympic in year 2 move on to middle distance in year 3 etc etc.

And prevent the one and done who want to complete a Ironman middle distance event? You heartless dream wrecker you!

Oryx

AKW wrote: »

I think the context in which I wrote the original was for TI sanctioned events to do it in this structured way. All other events as they please.

They wont do it. It would put a dent in revenue. My argument against it would be that it is a cumbersome layer of bureaucracy, from an organisation that cant even do one day licences in one day at the moment. It would also exclude perfectly competent athletes who just have no interest in short races. There needs to be a better way to prove competency. Or simply to transfer liability to the athlete if they harm themselves through their inability.

sconhome

speedyj wrote: »

And prevent the one and done who want to complete a Ironman middle distance event? You heartless dream wrecker you!

But who is thinking about Kurt's dreams? Who?

Vincepl

Kurt_Godel wrote: »

That's hugely positive. Do you have any links to it? The ITU competition rules still say <13˚means cancel.

I can't post the link

Add the usual to below address to get it

triathlonireland.com/assets/media/resources/NEW%20for%202015%20(1).pdf

Kurt_Godel

Thanks a million, delighted to see this. It's a very positive step, and it means people can travel to events knowing they are a lot less likely to be cancelled or shortened.

Podge83

As with most things there is middle ground which needs to be found. The swim element needs closer consideration as there are risks involved which aren’t there in the run and cycle (although I’d argue that an incompetent cyclist poses a greater threat to others and sometimes this doesn’t get due consideration by organisers – another argument for another day!!).
Providing the support for the swim course and safety for all is paramount. So what do we do, put up the course and say that’s it lads & lassies – if you don’t like it go home or jump in and increase our risk level. Some will jump in and some will go home. Usually common sense prevails.

Maybe swim difficulty should be rated by organisers of their promoting material on a “normal” day – what’s normal for summer in Ireland – last week it was blowing a gale and today it’s still! The Kilkee swim will be more difficult for instance than an inshore lake swim on a typical day.

The Swim competency certificates requested to be completed from race to race differ and indeed some never ask for the signed certificate. What does this mean – dangerous to have a certificate and not get them signed!!

The big thing is entry numbers – The top end prizes, organisation, insurance, timing, food, race signage, mementoes, licences etc. must all be paid for from the entries. Numbers can’t drop or races become uneconomical. I know and accept that economics aren’t the only reason to stage a race but nobody can persevere with something that loses them money. Limit entries to super swimmers and races will fall by the wayside. Then even the super swimmers will have less races.

The annoying thing is that some organisers are too cautious (I’ve seen shortened swims in mirror flat water with no reason given) that isn’t good enough either – no-one should enter a race with a swim that they can’t swim – people do and that also is as annoying!!!. Again, I make the exception here for someone who might panic unexpectantly – they may have trained but hit the open water in race conditions and things are a whole lot different – it’s something you must do to get competent at it.

Take the typical person coming into triathlon – this person must start somewhere and develop. The swim, rightly or wrongly is the big fear and obstacle – these people must be encouraged! Ok start short and easy and work your way up but everyone must do a first Sprint, Oly, Half etc. The structured approach to this as mentioned above would be good, but some develop faster than others - balance!!

Reasonable allowance must be made for all abilities in the field. One of the changes to the swim route this year that I witnessed was Carlow – the correct decision was made in my opinion – and it was balanced for all in that it was lengthened when made upstream (in accordance with the guidelines). Most finished and had a good experience – some would have struggled with the upstream flow – some shout foul here but you must cater for all who enter the race with the ability to finish. If the flow was much stronger than it is on a normal it is reasonable to make the change.

This gives rise to another question and as has been debated earlier – have two courses – one easier – in my opinion this isn’t really an option – where do you draw the line – or do you just say ok weaker swimmers hop in here for the easier swim, but won’t be counted on the official result. It’s not so easy to set up two separate timing arrangements at the drop of a hat, whatever about a safety plan for two courses.

What is the right balance – the system as it is, but instigated more reasonably without always erring on the cautious side for sure but, hold on, wait a minute – don’t err on the cautious side and something goes wrong and someone (probably a volunteer) will have something disturbing on their mind for the rest of their days!!

Went on a bit there^^

rooneyjm

Traffic light system for Easy, Med, Hard swims. Unless you can prove your swim ability its Green only for year 1, Green and Orange year 2 and then your free to do what you like after that (Green, Orange, Red). If people didn't want to spend yr 1 in Green only then TI could hold qualifying days (at a small fee) to prove your ability.

Probably far to much admin but there you go.

MojoMaker

Annual certification, performed at regional centres around the country - swim competence certificate authorised and issued by your local authority following a 15 min objective assessment by a neutral official, SI or affiliated.

We have to have our cars tested annually to prove suitability for purpose, and I would hope everyone gets an annual medical once-over as well, so why not a swim cert? €10 and tested at your local pool at a certain day/time.

While pool and OW are different, there is enough crossover in basic ability to be approximately correct.

MrCreosote

May/Early June are too unpredictable weatherwise and the water is too cold- the whole season should be shunted on 3-4 weeks.

topcat77

Would be funny to see the old style swim distance badges (80's) on the wetsuits. From Wales originally but i remember these explicitly.

swim distance.jpg

Oryx

Are clubs doing enough to work on this? Are all the poor swimmers unaffiliated to a club do you reckon? If they are within a club there is really no excuse, they should be getting the advice and training they need to prepare properly for ow swimming. For the odl one and done crew, perhaps swim competency could be a prerequisite? Though it does add all that bureaucracy I mentioned before, and I dont think TI (nor the entrants themselves) will be happy trying to work with such a requirement.

Podge83

When you think about it throwing in novice swimmers at the start line of any ow triathlon is a bit slack and irresponsible. Its all to easy for anyone to enter without being able to swim.

On another thread the lady who couldn't swim in Athy to the stage where she was caught up in the start of the following wave was discussed. This was irresponsibility on her own behalf, but swim competency wasn't checked here or she wouldn't have been in the water (don't Athy have one of those "swim competency certs" to complete). The certs we all get with race briefs should be withdrawn for a start as these have no value if they are not checked other than being presented by organisers to cover their ar5es.

Its up to the organisers and TI to set up some sort of check - many good ideas above. Again, it's something that'll probably be done when its too late!! It makes sense to do something now for the comfort and enjoyment of all but probably wont be!!

All must be done though without seeming like a barrier for people starting up!

Kurt_Godel

Podge83 wrote: »

When you think about it throwing in novice swimmers at the start line of any ow triathlon is a bit slack and irresponsible. Its all to easy for anyone to enter without being able to swim.

That's the nub of the issue. There are people entering races who must believe they are decent swimmers based on a week by the pool in the Costa del Sol, and a wetsuit. There are no checks on their ability, no incentive for them to test their OW capability before a race. That's hardly a safe way to run a race; or at least you could say it could be made safer.

The more who enter, and who enjoy OW swimming, the better (as far as I'm concerned). Water safety, and cost of water safety, is no doubt an issue for race organisers and for TI. There are a growing number of OW classes being held all over Ireland, by qualified coaches, and any one of these novice swimmers would be well served by preparing for race season by doing a one-day course with any of these. The novice would understand their OW abilities a bit better, the beginner would hone their OW skills and thus race better, the race organisers would know safety parameters for their race have tightened, and everyone would be more likely to swim the advertised race course. Having experienced swimmers will lessen the need for water safety on the day (I've seen several races where a kayak is needed straight after race start), and lessen the need for race-day changes for organisers.

If OW safety really is such a priority to TI, then let it be certified in such as way as to make it useful. The current system benefits no-one except the non-swimmer who wants to enter a race without the requisite training.