Mascherano vs Keane (vs Busquets)

Magico Gonzalez

I also think its fair to say that no who isnt either an Irish football fan or a United fan would have Keane as the top midfielder in the world.

I am going to say that making claims to the contrary reveals a damning lack of perspective.

Billy86

Magico Gonzalez wrote: »

I also think its fair to say that no who isnt either an Irish football fan or a United fan would have Keane as the top midfielder in the world.

I am going to say that making claims to the contrary reveals a damning lack of perspective.

So who would you have had above him in his position, from 1998-2002?

Andersonisgod

Billy86 wrote: »

"he'd say Mascherano without doubt and he'd reference his incredible WC semi final performance, just as Billy references Keane vs Juventus or vs Netherlands."

Someone else referenced those games. I replied.

Keep telling yourself that.

Don't worry, you can always throw on a few replays of the weekend and have something nice with yourself.

Ah semantics. You said point blank that you didn't reference those games, I've shown that, point blank you did. Sure, you might say "semantics" but I'd say tough luck, if you argue like a child you will find yourself in childish arguments.

I absolutely will, it maintains my motivation and confidence.

I hope you enjoy that game too, Mascherano's second Champions League, the third for Busquets.

Billy86

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Ah semantics. You said point blank that you didn't reference those games, I've shown that, point blank you did. Sure, you might say "semantics" but I'd say tough luck, if you argue like a child you will find yourself in childish arguments.

If that's the road you want to take then you clearly still feel Busquets has been the best player in the world over the last five years.

Like I said, being disingenuous and childish is so easy sometimes.

I absolutely will, it maintains my motivation and confidence.

Good stuff, keep patting yourself on the back if it makes you feel better.

Even if you did list Cygan with a bunch of Barca/Man Utd comparisons. Because of course that wasn't a mistake.

I hope you enjoy that game too, Mascherano's second Champions League, the third for Busquets.

Good for them, they play in an amazing team.

Kirby

Turtwig wrote: »

To be fair, you have go a long way back into the past for Busquet's play acting. He's cleaned up his act superbly. .

No you dont. You just have to look at his last game. Against Juventus, just the other day. Rolling around on the floor when he hadnt even been touched. He'll never change. He's a faker.

Andersonisgod

Muff_Daddy wrote: »

No, you're twisting words again. You don't even know what my opinion is as to who's better for a start, as I haven't proffered it yet. You're jumping the gun. You constantly bang on about medals and accolades as if that is the measuring stick of how a player is to be judged, and there is cases to be made that a standout player who is not in the top 20 teams in the world could be better than an individual in a once in a generation team.

You're correct about Keane having great players around him a club level.




Is it silly? You mentioned earlier in the thread that Busquets graduated from La Masia and has played with players and in a system since a very young age. He has a role in the team, and fulfills it to the barca standard. The argument could be made that this is advantageous to Sergio Busquets, one that not every footballer is privileged to have. There was no La Masia in Cobh. Not to take anything away from Busquets, he is a smashing footballer, technically better than Keane, and was the best player on the pitch in the Champions League final, and there is an argument to be made that he's better than Roy Keane.

But that's what it is, an argument. You're posting style comes across too much as he's not Blaugrana, therefore he is simply not good enough.

I can't ever remember saying it is the ultimate measuring stick, however considering how pivotal Busquets has been to the outstanding team of this generation I do believe their trophy haul is worth a mention.

This third paragraph I don't like. It seems to insinuate that because Sergio Busquets was schooled at La Masia it should be counted against him? As though a street footballer who got their break later in life deserves preferential treatment? Perhaps because Busquets's father played as a goalkeeper for the first team that you believe he got preferential treatment? I would say that, if anything, having graduated from La Masia he deserves more credit given the standard of that academy, the players it has produced and it's contribution to the golden generation of Barcelona.

I've never said that, ever.

Andersonisgod

Billy86 wrote: »

If that's the road you want to take then you clearly still feel Busquets has been the best player in the world over the last five years.

Like I said, being disingenuous and childish is so easy sometimes.

Good stuff, keep patting yourself on the back if it makes you feel better.

Even if you did list Cygan with a bunch of Barca/Man Utd comparisons. Because of course that wasn't a mistake.

Good for them, they play in an amazing team.

Yes, now whip out your Yu Gi Oh cards and lets duel.

I will, though I can't do it for long periods of time as it's a strain on my shoulder.

Yes I remember Cygan lining up for Man Utd and not because I thought he was the worst centre back that you would have heard of.

Yes they do, and they are an amazing part of an amazing team.

AdamD

Busquets has been pretty under rated in this thread, superb player. Keane was quite clearly a level above Mascherano though, had all of his defensive qualities and much more ability with the ball.

Billy86

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Yes I remember Cygan lining up for Man Utd and not because I thought he was the worst centre back that you would have heard of.

And in what season and/or universe was this?

Andersonisgod

Billy86 wrote: »

And in what season and/or universe was this?

Sarcasm not your strong suit is it? Better cross sarcasm and irony off the list.

Billy86

AdamD wrote: »

Busquets has been pretty under rated in this thread, superb player. Keane was quite clearly a level above Mascherano though, had all of his defensive qualities and much more ability with the ball.

Just to clarify, I'm not saying Busquets is anything short of brilliant. I would just like to see him take the next step up first as the leader of his team, or at least midfield. He's got every chance to do it now with Xavi gone and Iniesta getting further into his 30s, and he probably will. I just want to see it first.

Ulysses Gaze

Keane v Mascherano? Keane for me. Just though. The only players who I would say would have been equal to Keane in his role at the time would have been Vieira and Claude Makalele.

Billy86

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Sarcasm not your strong suit is it? Better cross sarcasm and irony off the list.

Of course, you just listed jim among a pile of Man utd players "because". I fully believe you you seem credible.

Andersonisgod

Billy86 wrote: »

Just to clarify, I'm not saying Busquets is anything short of brilliant. I would just like to see him take the next step up first as the leader of his team, or at least midfield. He's got every chance to do it now with Xavi gone and Iniesta getting further into his 30s, and he probably will. I just want to see it first.

...he is already a leader in the team, he's one of the captains at the club. Along with Iniesta he is a leader in midfield too.

Andersonisgod

Billy86 wrote: »

Of course, you just listed jim among a pile of Man utd players "because". I fully believe you you seem credible.

I don't mean to come across as arrogant but I know my stuff, I could have named any poorly perceived centre back there but I opted for Cygan because I'm pretty certain you wouldn't know much outside of the top division in England and Pascal Cygan is a comedy figure, I'm trying to play to your strengths here but my lord it is tough. That you don't know that Busquets is already a captain at Barcelona pretty much backs up my belief that beyond the Premier League I suspect your football knowledge is rather barren. I'm trying to help you.

Muff_Daddy

Andersonisgod wrote: »

This third paragraph I don't like. It seems to insinuate that because Sergio Busquets was schooled at La Masia it should be counted against him? As though a street footballer who got their break later in life deserves preferential treatment? Perhaps because Busquets's father played as a goalkeeper for the first team that you believe he got preferential treatment? I would say that, if anything, having graduated from La Masia he deserves more credit given the standard of that academy, the players it has produced and it's contribution to the golden generation of Barcelona.

I clearly stated it shouldn't be held against him. He's not privileged or fortunate, he absoloutly merits his place there, I don't know why you think I don't believe that, and he's clearly one of the outstanding graduates judging by his career so far.

What I said was his schooling at La Masia at the time they were building the system they did and had the players that they had gave him an advantage over players who weren't. Nearly all the players who played in the Barca acadamy are from the Catelan region, and the like of Messi of course, what I'm saying is there's bound to be some players out there who would never have the chance to be noticed by the Barca scouts, never mind play in their acadamy. That's the basis of my question, take Busquets out of the Barca system, do you think he would thrive? Hypothecially put him in central midfield for Ireland, does he do a better job than Roy Keane?

I've never said that, ever.

You're posts strongly, strongly imply it.

pmasterson95

Andersonisgod wrote: »

I don't mean to come across as arrogant but I know my stuff, I could have named any poorly perceived centre back there but I opted for Cygan because I'm pretty certain you wouldn't know much outside of the top division in England and Pascal Cygan is a comedy figure, I'm trying to play to your strengths here but my lord it is tough. That you don't know that Busquets is already a captain at Barcelona pretty much backs up my belief that beyond the Premier League I suspect your football knowledge is rather barren. I'm trying to help you.

GLaDOS

This thread is incredibly entertaining

FutureGuy

Ok. When I first saw the title I thought someone was trying to take the p!ss by debating Mascherano vs Keane as if they were at the same level. After all, your guy would say Keane my a mile.

But then after reviewing the question on the way home, I decided to have a really hard think about their records, their qualities, their contribution to their respective clubs. I also weighed up the fact I was a United supported and removed any bias I had.

I came to the conclusion that someone was taking the p!ss by debating Mascherano vs Keane as if they were on the same level. Keane by a mile.

Andersonisgod

Muff_Daddy wrote: »

I clearly stated it shouldn't be held against him. He's not privileged or fortunate, he absoloutly merits his place there, I don't know why you think I don't believe that, and he's clearly one of the outstanding graduates judging by his career so far.

What I said was his schooling at La Masia at the time they were building the system they did and had the players that they had gave him an advantage over players who weren't. Nearly all the players who played in the Barca acadamy are from the Catelan region, and the like of Messi of course, what I'm saying is there's bound to be some players out there who would never have the chance to be noticed by the Barca scouts, never mind play in their acadamy. That's the basis of my question, take Busquets out of the Barca system, do you think he would thrive? Hypothecially put him in central midfield for Ireland, does he do a better job than Roy Keane?



You're posts strongly, strongly imply it.

Unfortunately your question is impossible to answer. None of us can say what would happen. His entire life has been spent learning to play the Barcelona way. I believe Ireland would be a significantly better passing side with him in it, but it's impossible to know to what extent that would effect results. Equally bringing someone from outside the Barcelona system into Barcelona has an element of the unknown about it, you just don't know if they will take to it or not.

I don't agree.

pmasterson95

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Unfortunately your question is impossible to answer. None of us can say what would happen. His entire life has been spent learning to play the Barcelona way. I believe Ireland would be a significantly better passing side with him in it, but it's impossible to know to what extent that would effect results. Equally bringing someone from outside the Barcelona system into Barcelona has an element of the unknown about it, you just don't know if they will take to it or not.

I don't agree.

So are you with your infinite knowledge oh wise one now saying that if Sergio Busquets played for Ireland it would transform our national team? Are you again claiming Busquets passing is what made Barcelona so conquering? It had nothing to do with the overall talent level?

Are you suggesting that the power of Busquets would transform Glenn Whelan and Darren Gibson into Xavi and Iniesta?

It wont. Busquets was groomed to fit into the system and unsuprisingly fitted into it. He was surrounded by 2 other Masia graduates his whole career. What a shock that 3 midfielders groomed in the one academy to use and maximise the required talents turned into a great midfield.

Turtwig

The frightening thing about Busquets is that he still hasn't reached his prime. Well, age wise he shouldn't have at least.

I think it'd be interesting to ask Arsene Wenger, Sir Alec, Mourinho, etc. who they'd rather have in their team, Roy Keane or Sergio Busquets?
I'd say most managers would say Busquets. That doesn't mean he's the better player, he's just a more valuable player.

I joked earlier this season in the Chelsea thread that if Chelsea had Busquets and Matic it'd take an almighty miracle to break through their defence.

Andersonisgod

pmasterson95 wrote: »

So are you with your infinite knowledge oh wise one now saying that if Sergio Busquets played for Ireland it would transform our national team? Are you again claiming Busquets passing is what made Barcelona so conquering? It had nothing to do with the overall talent level?

Are you suggesting that the power of Busquets would transform Glenn Whelan and Darren Gibson into Xavi and Iniesta?

Oh man, this is tough. I believe I said something like "we don't know to what extent that would effect results" how have you gotten "transform our national team" "Busquets passing made Barcelona so conquering" "Glen Whelan and Darron Gibson into Xavi and Iniesta" from me saying I don't know how having him in the team would affect results?

After I'm done teaching people football I will then move onto teaching English.

Blue giant

Andersonisgod wrote: »

I don't mean to come across as arrogant but I know my stuff, I could have named any poorly perceived centre back there but I opted for Cygan because I'm pretty certain you wouldn't know much outside of the top division in England and Pascal Cygan is a comedy figure, I'm trying to play to your strengths here but my lord it is tough. That you don't know that Busquets is already a captain at Barcelona pretty much backs up my belief that beyond the Premier League I suspect your football knowledge is rather barren. I'm trying to help you.

You say he's a "captain" at the club (presume you mean leader because there can only be one captain) yet I never remember him taking a game by the scruff of the neck, being the standout player in a match or dragging his team back into a game. Keane did all of these things numerous times.

That's not to say that Busquets isn't a brilliant player. He's probably the best in the world at what he does. It's a very specialist position. I don't know if there's too many other clubs in the world where he could play like he does. This is what makes Keane a better player for me though. Busquets is a brilliant player in a brilliant team, doing a very important job. He is essentially a cog in the machine, albeit a hugely important one. He collects the ball and plays it off to Iniesta,Messi etc. and is there to receive it again and try to break up counterattacks. Keane played this role just as well with United for years. He also showed for Ireland though and the real big games for United that he could be the driving force of the whole team. I'm not sure that Busquets could do this.

pmasterson95

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Unfortunately your question is impossible to answer. None of us can say what would happen. His entire life has been spent learning to play the Barcelona way. I believe Ireland would be a significantly better passing side with him in it, but it's impossible to know to what extent that would effect results. Equally bringing someone from outside the Barcelona system into Barcelona has an element of the unknown about it, you just don't know if they will take to it or not.

I don't agree.

Good english ando. You never said it.

Turtwig

Busqeuts is one of three vice captains at Barcelona.

Andersonisgod

pmasterson95 wrote: »

Good english ando. You never said it.

Yes, "a significantly better passing side" that's hardly saying he is the reason Barcelona conquered football or that he has the powers to transform Whelan and Gibson into Xavi and Iniesta, it's saying that having the best one touch passer of a football and someone with immense experience playing in the heart of the midfield for Barcelona would seriously improve our ability to play through midfield. Someone alert the media quick!

RedemptionZ

Blue giant wrote: »

You say he's a "captain" at the club (presume you mean leader because there can only be one captain) yet I never remember him taking a game by the scruff of the neck, being the standout player in a match or dragging his team back into a game. Keane did all of these things numerous times.

To be fair, I would say you, like most on the forum have seen far more of Keane than you have of Busquets. The guy has had plenty of MOTM performances.

pmasterson95

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Yes, "a significantly better passing side" that's hardly saying he is the reason Barcelona conquered football or that he has the powers to transform Whelan and Gibson into Xavi and Iniesta, it's saying that having the best one touch passer of a football and someone with immense experience playing in the heart of the midfield for Barcelona would seriously improve our ability to play through midfield. Someone alert the media quick!

So once again are you trying to say Busquets is superior than Xavi and Iniesta? Now before you peddle out "they are too attacking" all Barcelonas players have an excellent first touch. Messi, Pique, all off them. But you just said he is the best. So you think he has a better touch than Messi?


These are your words. For someone who boasts about their superior intelligence I'm not seeing it. But I guess you are trying. Its cute.

CSF

Andersonisgod wrote: »

I don't mean to come across as arrogant but I know my stuff

Surely you find it a cause for concern that the forum does not agree with you on this, and that you were an almost unanimous choice for most biased poster?

pmasterson95

CSF wrote: »

Surely you find it a cause for concern that the forum does not agree with you on this, and that you were an almost unanimous choice for most biased poster?

He probably think he needs to teach the misinformed forum the true meaning of football as we clearly are misinformed. #andoisgod
#andoislife
#andoistruth

Blue giant

RedemptionZ wrote: »

To be fair, I would say you, like most on the forum have seen far more of Keane than you have of Busquets. The guy has had plenty of MOTM performances.

No doubt about that. I can admit that I haven't and don't watch every single football match. I probably wouldn't watch close to half of Busquets' games. I would watch the most important ones though. The world cup, Euros, champions league and El Classico's. He has never been the player to stand out for me. It has nearly always been Messi, Iniesta, Xavi, Neymar and the likes. That may be a slight on me or it could just be that there are, were and will be players who are as good as him.

Turtwig

pmasterson95 wrote: »

So once again are you trying to say Busquets is superior than Xavi and Iniesta? Now before you peddle out "they are too attacking" all Barcelonas players have an excellent first touch. Messi, Pique, all off them. But you just said he is the best. So you think he has a better touch than Messi?


These are your words. For someone who boasts about their superior intelligence I'm not seeing it. But I guess you are trying. Its cute.

S/he didn't say first touch. He said "one touch passer" i.e the player plays the ball first time without taking a touch. He's not saying Xaviesta is superior than Busquet's. He's saying that Busquets is the best at one touch quick passing. I'd say there's merit in that argument. I don't think I agree with it. But I certainly disagree with your brazen dismissal of it.

efb

Tell you what though I'd hate to try manage Keane. Fergie deserves a lot of praise in that respect

CSF

efb wrote: »

Tell you what though I'd hate to try manage Keane. Fergie deserves a lot of praise in that respect

Pros and cons I think. There was one man who you knew you would never have to motivate and who you knew would ensure higher standards were reached by others.

But he'd have been a nightmare at times also, of that I've no doubt.

gosplan

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

Keane v Mascherano? Keane for me. Just though. The only players who I would say would have been equal to Keane in his role at the time would have been Vieira and Claude Makalele.

And this is a rational post people.

Mascherano is a fantastic football, won loads, been a rock for different teams in different leagues.

To say that Keane is way better because he dominated the PL with Utd ( who generally dominated anyway, whether it was Keane or Fletcher) is really taking a pro-UK view of football at that time.

You can say Keane was the better of the two but the idea that 'it's not even close', well for me it's up there with putting McGrath in the Giants Stadium as 'the best performance of all time'.

eagle eye

Andersonisgod wrote: »

I don't mean to come across as arrogant but I know my stuff, I could have named any poorly perceived centre back there but I opted for Cygan because I'm pretty certain you wouldn't know much outside of the top division in England and Pascal Cygan is a comedy figure, I'm trying to play to your strengths here but my lord it is tough. That you don't know that Busquets is already a captain at Barcelona pretty much backs up my belief that beyond the Premier League I suspect your football knowledge is rather barren. I'm trying to help you.

This is such bull. I watch a ton of Spanish football and not just Barcelona or Real Madrid but I think I've seen the armband on Busquets once.

This second, third and fouth captains thing means nothing. The man with the armband is what matters the most and that armbands goes to Xavi first, Iniesta second and Messi third. Being a fourth captain among 16 or so regular starters is not important and doesn't mean that somebody is a leader on the team.

CSF

gosplan wrote: »

And this is a rational post people.

Mascherano is a fantastic football, won loads, been a rock for different teams in different leagues.

To say that Keane is way better because he dominated the PL with Utd ( who generally dominated anyway, whether it was Keane or Fletcher.

You can say Keane was the better of the two but the idea that 'it's not even close', well for me it's up there with putting McGrath in the Giants Stadium as the best performance of all time.

That Keane was comfortably better is no slight on Mascherano who has unquestionably been a very good player. But Keane was up there with the best in the world at a point. There were better players but not many. I've never considered Mascherano to be in the best 20 or 30 players in the world IMO. Others may differ on that, but I doubt they'd put him that much higher either.

monkey9

I haven't read the thread so I can only imagine what it's like, but the answer is Roy Keane. All day long.

The Magnificent Falcowboys

People will have there opinions but I personally cant think of a better midfield 3 in the last 20 years than

---

Xavi

---

Keane

---

-Zidane

---

Pirlo/Scholes/Alonso

---

--Viera/Dechamps/Davids

---

Iniesta/Fabregas/Silva


Are other examples


Viera was the closest to the type of midfielder Keane was but not quite as good in my opinion,Essien came close too but declined way too quickly Mascherano is more like Makelele who sat in front of the back 4

gosplan

Take someone like Hierro.

The guy won a few leagues, 3 CL's in 5 seasons (ironically around the time others were saying Keane was the best player in the world) and really led that team.

Now different players and all but what separates Hierro from other defenders? What I mean is on what basis are we saying Keane is about the best CMF/DMF in a couple of decades? Could someone not easily say all the same about Hierro.

Really really, if you we're from say Portugal, would you be saying this?

He didn't make an impact outside the PL.

CSF

gosplan wrote: »

Take someone like Hierro.

The guy won a few leagues, 3 CL's in 5 seasons (ironically around the time others were saying Keane was the best player in the world) and really led that team.

Now different players and all but what separates Hierro from other defenders? What I mean is on what basis are we saying Keane is about the best CMF/DMF in a couple of decades? Could someone not easily say all the same about Hierro.

Really really, if you we're from say Portugal, would you be saying this?

He didn't make an impact outside the PL.

Being the best player in a champions league winning team is making an impact in my eyes. He didn't play in another league but I think that's not that relevant unless we are trying to make him out to be the absolute best which nobody is.

gosplan

CSF wrote: »

Being the best player in a champions league winning team is making an impact in my eyes. He didn't play in another league but I think that's not that relevant unless we are trying to make him out to be the absolute best which nobody is.

But he didn't win the CL with them.

And the two years after, they didn't even win their group in the CL.

The year before they went out in the CL quarter finals to Monaco.

He had a lot of chances so where are the classic Roy Keane 'drag the team over the line' performances.

They got knocked out of Europe by teams like Bayer and Monaco. They got knocked out by the pre-Galacticos Madrid of Raul, Morientes, Hierro, Campo and Carlos.

These were not great teams dotted with one-of a kind players, where was Keane?

I'm not trying to have a go at him. Just pointing out he didn't make much of a splash on the international stage.

gosplan

gosplan wrote: »

And this is a rational post people.

Mascherano is a fantastic football, won loads, been a rock for different teams in different leagues.

To say that Keane is way better because he dominated the PL with Utd ( who generally dominated anyway, whether it was Keane or Fletcher) is really taking a pro-UK view of football at that time.

You can say Keane was the better of the two but the idea that 'it's not even close', well for me it's up there with putting McGrath in the Giants Stadium as 'the best performance of all time'.

The premiership is the best in the world!!...

gosplan

CSF wrote: »

Being the best player in a champions league winning team is making an impact in my eyes. He didn't play in another league but I think that's not that relevant unless we are trying to make him out to be the absolute best which nobody is.

Sorry, I was still speaking about the 'Keane is the best' argument.

PhlegmyMoses

Haha, this forum is mental at times. Keane was one of the best central midfielders of his generation. He also was NOT a DM.

And if the Argetines were to argue for Mascherano, then they'd be as wrong as everyone else that thinks that this is a debate. But at least they have an excuse in doing so.

PhlegmyMoses

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Haha, this forum is mental at times. Keane was one of the best central midfielders of his generation. He also was NOT a DM.

And if the Argetines were to argue for Mascherano, then they'd be as wrong as everyone else that thinks that this is a debate. But at least they have an excuse in doing so.

Considering Masherano plays as a DM or central defender it's an absolute ridiculous comparison anyway tbh.

Rayne Wooney

Mascherano vrs Keane

Ulysses Gaze

The Magnificent Falcowboys wrote: »

People will have there opinions but I personally cant think of a better midfield 3 in the last 20 years than

---

Xavi

---

Keane

---

-Zidane

---

Pirlo/Scholes/Alonso

---

--Viera/Dechamps/Davids

---

Iniesta/Fabregas/Silva


Are other examples


Viera was the closest to the type of midfielder Keane was but not quite as good in my opinion,Essien came close too but declined way too quickly Mascherano is more like Makelele who sat in front of the back 4

At one point there was talk of Keane going to Juventus back in 2000 when his contract was up. The midfield he would have played in would have been, potentially, himself, Davids and Zidane.

If he had gone after 2001, he'd have been in a midfield with Davids and Nedved.

Anyway you look at it, some midfield trio combinations there!

bucketybuck

monkey9 wrote: »

I haven't read the thread so I can only imagine what it's like, but the answer is Roy Keane. All day long.

Its a very boring thread, full of ignorance and a lot of bull from the usual suspect.