Mascherano vs Keane (vs Busquets)

lassykk

Well, I stopped reading after page 12 on my mobile as I'd had enough of the childishness.

Look there's probably an argument for busquests being better or at least on a par with Keane. I personally don't think the same could be said for mascherano but that's imho.

I think the issue I have is that a certain poster cannot, it appears, see anything other than everyone in Barcelona is the best in the world. Now, they may be the best team... But it gets tiresome after a while given the flowery language used.

This forum can be tough going but there are some excellent posters in here with great insights including those alluded to above minus the linguistics. Sadly this thread isn't bringing out the best in some!

Andersonisgod

pmasterson95 wrote: »

So once again are you trying to say Busquets is superior than Xavi and Iniesta? Now before you peddle out "they are too attacking" all Barcelonas players have an excellent first touch. Messi, Pique, all off them. But you just said he is the best. So you think he has a better touch than Messi?


These are your words. For someone who boasts about their superior intelligence I'm not seeing it. But I guess you are trying. Its cute.

I'm saying that yes, Busquets is the best 1 touch player in the world, not that he is a better overall player than Xavi or Iniesta, learn to differentiate, by the way the notion that Busquets is the best 1 touch player in the world isn't just mine, it's also Gerard Pique's opinion.

I'm here help you to learn;)

Andersonisgod

CSF wrote: »

Surely you find it a cause for concern that the forum does not agree with you on this, and that you were an almost unanimous choice for most biased poster?

On a thread where the theory that Roy Keane was the best player in the world for 4 years was seriously suggested I feel very safe that I am not the most biased poster, rather my opinions simply go against the grain.

Andersonisgod

eagle eye wrote: »

This is such bull. I watch a ton of Spanish football and not just Barcelona or Real Madrid but I think I've seen the armband on Busquets once.

This second, third and fouth captains thing means nothing. The man with the armband is what matters the most and that armbands goes to Xavi first, Iniesta second and Messi third. Being a fourth captain among 16 or so regular starters is not important and doesn't mean that somebody is a leader on the team.

At Barcelona it absolutely does. He doesn't have the armband but he is a leader in the locker room, he's a voice that matters, an opinion with weight behind it. When there was trouble earlier in the seasons he was one of the players to help deal with that, he's gone from a boy promoted from the B team to a leader in the team and armband or no armband doesn't change the respect he garners among his teammates or the importance of his opinions.

GreNoLi

I like football.

Andersonisgod

lassykk wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Allow me to translate this for those of you too bored of it to get past the second sentence.

"I'm right, Andersonisgod is wrong. Everyone who thinks Keane is the best is right, anyone who would rather Mascherano is wrong and is definitely trolling! 2 Champions League medals, 3 La Ligas, Club World Cup, 2 Copa Del Reys, 2 Olympic gold medals, Barcelona player of the year 2013-2014....doesn't matter, you're wrong, you're a troll and everyone on my side isn't a troll despite what anyone might say because your opinion is different to mine and you dare express it with your flowery, 5 dollar words. Damn you, damn you straight to hell!

eagle eye

Andersonisgod wrote: »

At Barcelona it absolutely does. He doesn't have the armband but he is a leader in the locker room, he's a voice that matters, an opinion with weight behind it. When there was trouble earlier in the seasons he was one of the players to help deal with that, he's gone from a boy promoted from the B team to a leader in the team and armband or no armband doesn't change the respect he garners among his teammates or the importance of his opinions.

Can you point me towards some articles where his leadership qualities have been discussed?

I'd like to read up on this. It's the only way we can know that this is not something you have fabricated in your own mind.

LuckyLloyd

I'm a simple man I guess. Busquets is obviously a world class player in one of the greatest sides ever. But like, does anyone denigrating him in this thread actually remember Keane?

Juve 99
Arsenal 00
Portugal 01
Holland 01
Leverkusen 02 (on the losing side)
France 05 (on the losing side)

And as far as the Utd games were concerned I wanted the **** to get hit by a meteor before winning.

It would be ****ing ridiculous like:

'Keane has it, oh that's the right ball'
'What a move, great run through the middle from Keane'
'**** me, he just rinsed [World Class Dangerman X]'
'****, danger here...where did that Cork bollix come from to clear it'

It was a pleasure to watch him tbh.

Andersonisgod

eagle eye wrote: »

Can you point me towards some articles where his leadership qualities have been discussed?

I'd like to read up on this. It's the only way we can know that this is not something you have fabricated in your own mind.

He's one of the captains now, he's backed to be the club captain in the future by Barcelona legend Xavi Hernandez.
http://www.espnfc.com/barcelona/story/2480127/busquets-backed-to-be-future-barcelona-captain-by-xavi

He's one of the four captains at the club, that's undisputed too.
If you want daily news on the Barcelona squad and information it's about following the right people on twitter, people who are close to Barcelona, who get the Spanish papers. I could scroll through their timelines but it'd take me an age, afterall I see stories practically everyday.

lassykk

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Allow me to translate this for those of you too bored of it to get past the second sentence.

"I'm right, Andersonisgod is wrong. Everyone who thinks Keane is the best is right, anyone who would rather Mascherano is wrong and is definitely trolling! 2 Champions League medals, 3 La Ligas, Club World Cup, 2 Copa Del Reys, 2 Olympic gold medals, Barcelona player of the year 2013-2014....doesn't matter, you're wrong, you're a troll and everyone on my side isn't a troll despite what anyone might say because your opinion is different to mine and you dare express it with your flowery, 5 dollar words. Damn you, damn you straight to hell!

You should really chill out. I noted that busquests may be better or at least on a par with Keane. I don't agree with you on the mascherano one but I did say imho. Throw all the medals you want in to the equation.

I also said that if you didn't have blinkers on towards everything Barcelona and toned down the flowers you make some good points on here.

I don't strongly support any team (used to be a United fan) but I just get hacked off when people can only see the merits in their own team.

PhlegmyMoses

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Allow me to translate this for those of you too bored of it to get past the second sentence.

"I'm right, Andersonisgod is wrong. Everyone who thinks Keane is the best is right, anyone who would rather Mascherano is wrong and is definitely trolling! 2 Champions League medals, 3 La Ligas, Club World Cup, 2 Copa Del Reys, 2 Olympic gold medals, Barcelona player of the year 2013-2014....doesn't matter, you're wrong, you're a troll and everyone on my side isn't a troll despite what anyone might say because your opinion is different to mine and you dare express it with your flowery, 5 dollar words. Damn you, damn you straight to hell!

1 CL, 4 PL titles, 2 league cups and 2 German cups.

Thomas Kuszczak everyone.

niallo27

Ah but did mascherano ever walk out before a World Cup for no reason.

niallo27

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

1 CL, 4 PL titles, 2 league cups and 2 German cups.

Thomas Kuszczak everyone.

Good old jimmy Traore has a champions league medal. Where is thurams, cannavora or Matheus medals.

Ulysses Gaze

niallo27 wrote: »

Ah but did mascherano ever walk out before a World Cup for no reason.

Or was he sent home....

Andersonisgod

lassykk wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I couldn't be more chill, I'm at my very chillest. I simply don't appreciate that somehow I'm being singled out for the childish bickering in this thread when there's almost a dozen examples of other posters doing likewise.

Again, my sole intention of even posting in this thread was to point out that favouring Keane over Mascherano based on his inability to get into the Barcelona team is incorrect. Though I don't think saying I'd rather Busquets over Keane to be an opinion that only someone "blinkered" could have, I think it's an entirely valid opinion.

I see the merits in everything.

Ulysses Gaze

Anyone think Keane could have played as a CB ala Mascherano at Barca?

Andersonisgod

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

1 CL, 4 PL titles, 2 league cups and 2 German cups.

Thomas Kuszczak everyone.

How much did he play in those though? I hate when people do that, like that because Kuszczak has medals that he contributed to the teams success. When I reference a players trophy haul you know what I mean, don't pretend that you don't. Mascherano played a sizable role in every singly trophy I just referenced, he wasn't some randomer that Barcelona took pity on and decided to bring him along for the ride, he's a world class footballer, an Argentinian international whose skills are highly valued in the Barcelona team, he's the first choice central midfielder for Argentina and he's the first choice centre back for the best team of this generation and he's earned every medal that he gets.

PhlegmyMoses

Keane was not a good CB. That experiment was tried at United and it didn't work out. But that was later in his career when he had moved back. At his peak, he was an old fashioned CM as part of a two man midfield.

Ulysses Gaze

Andersonisgod wrote: »

How much did he play in those though? I hate when people do that, like that because Kuszczak has medals that he contributed to the teams success. When I reference a players trophy haul you know what I mean, don't pretend that you don't. Mascherano played a sizable role in every singly trophy I just referenced, he wasn't some randomer that Barcelona took pity on and decided to bring him along for the ride, he's a world class footballer, an Argentinian international whose skills are highly valued in the Barcelona team, he's the first choice central midfielder for Argentina and he's the first choice centre back for the best team of this generation and he's earned every medal that he gets.

Who was outstanding in Brazil last summer.

niallo27

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

Anyone think Keane could have played as a CB ala Mascherano at Barca?

I could probably play CB for barca in fairness.

Just a little Samba

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

Anyone think Keane could have played as a CB ala Mascherano at Barca?

Easily. He had the brain, the physicality and the footballing ability to have been a very good centre back.

Thing is though he made himself invaluable in his preferred position and then adjusted his game when his pace lessened and made himself invaluable in a deeper role for several more years. Where as Masch has allowed himself to be shifted out of his best and favour position because he wasn't good enough to make it his own in the team he plays for.

niallo27

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Keane was not a good CB. That experiment was tried at United and it didn't work out. But that was later in his career when he had moved back. At his peak, he was an old fashioned CM as part of a two man midfield.

He was a box to box player which is something we don't see anymore for some reason.

Blue giant

Andersonisgod wrote: »

How much did he play in those though? I hate when people do that, like that because Kuszczak has medals that he contributed to the teams success. When I reference a players trophy haul you know what I mean, don't pretend that you don't. Mascherano played a sizable role in every singly trophy I just referenced, he wasn't some randomer that Barcelona took pity on and decided to bring him along for the ride, he's a world class footballer, an Argentinian international whose skills are highly valued in the Barcelona team, he's the first choice central midfielder for Argentina and he's the first choice centre back for the best team of this generation and he's earned every medal that he gets.

Okay but by that logic Ryan Giggs is one of the best players in the world ever :rolleyes:

PhlegmyMoses

Andersonisgod wrote: »

How much did he play in those though? I hate when people do that, like that because Kuszczak has medals that he contributed to the teams success. When I reference a players trophy haul you know what I mean, don't pretend that you don't. Mascherano played a sizable role in every singly trophy I just referenced, he wasn't some randomer that Barcelona took pity on and decided to bring him along for the ride, he's a world class footballer, an Argentinian international whose skills are highly valued in the Barcelona team, he's the first choice central midfielder for Argentina and he's the first choice centre back for the best team of this generation and he's earned every medal that he gets.

So you get it. Medal hauls have no place in discussing Mascherano's merit. Same way as Kuszczak's medal haul is irrelevant when discussing his merit.

Medals are won by teams.

Sand

Keane is obviously the correct answer to the OPs question.

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Keane or Ronaldo? Keane or Rivaldo? Keane or Zidane? Keane or Figo? Keane or Raul? Keane or Shevchenko? Keane or Ronaldinho? Keane or Messi? G'wan, be honest.

Some Irish fans and their over-inflated sense of self worth. The highest Keane ever got in the Balon D'or when he was "the best player in the world" is 6th in 1999, when Barcelona's Rivaldo won it. "Best in the world", do me a favor.

What's the highest Busquets ever finished in the Balon D'or, to settle the comparison between Keane and Busquets at least, if Balon D'Or is a valid measure.

Mr.H wrote: »

I dont think anyone outside if Ireland would agree that Roy Keane was EVER one of the (never mind THE) best center mids in the world

In the "keane era" you also had Zidane in his prime, Seedorf, Edgar Davids, Ballack, Makelele and Im sure Im leaving out a few big names

1999 he finished 6th in the Balon D'Or, and was the first out and out central midfielder in the list. The players above him where wingers, strikers and attacking midfielders. He finished ahead of all the players you mentioned. He didn't finish there on Irish bias alone. Someone outside Ireland recognised that he was one of the, if not the best center mids in the world that year.

Just a little Samba

Keane was a better player than all of Seedorf, Davids, Makelele and Ballack.

As an out and out centre midfielder in the 90's, Keane is up there with the Viera's and Redondo's.

PhlegmyMoses

The Balon D'Or is a ****ty way to define a player's worth anyway. Beckham was never as good as Keane and he regularly finished above him.

It's a weird award that often recognises celebrity or reputation as much as actual performances over a year. Heavily weighted towards attackers as well.

Sand

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

The Balon D'Or is a ****ty way to define a player's worth anyway. Beckham was never as good as Keane and he regularly finished above him.

It's a weird award that often recognises celebrity or reputation as much as actual performances over a year. Heavily weighted towards attackers as well.

Agreed - its a nonsense. Michael Owen won it back in 2001 to highlight how pointless it is.

gosplan

Just a little Samba wrote: »

Keane was a better player than all of Seedorf, Davids, Makelele and Ballack.

Agree on the first two. Last two I dunno.

CSF

Andersonisgod wrote: »

On a thread where the theory that Roy Keane was the best player in the world for 4 years was seriously suggested I feel very safe that I am not the most biased poster, rather my opinions simply go against the grain.

That's fine, and you're absolutely entitled to that opinion, but I do feel obliged to point out that the opinion of the forum was almost unanimously that it was in fact you who was the most biased, and not the bastion of knowledge and footballing intellect that you've claimed.

Kirby

The old "I'm not crazy! All of your are crazy!" line. You never fail to make me laugh Andersonisgod. Thank you for entertaining us all.

Andersonisgod

Sand wrote: »

Keane is obviously the correct answer to the OPs question.



What's the highest Busquets ever finished in the Balon D'or, to settle the comparison between Keane and Busquets at least, if Balon D'Or is a valid measure.



1999 he finished 6th in the Balon D'Or, and was the first out and out central midfielder in the list. The players above him where wingers, strikers and attacking midfielders. He finished ahead of all the players you mentioned. He didn't finish there on Irish bias alone. Someone outside Ireland recognised that he was one of the, if not the best center mids in the world that year.

I have stated many times my disdain for the Balon D'or, I only referenced it here because so many on here seem to put stock in it. I couldn't care less where Busquets finishes in the Balon D'or, his entire job revolves around going unnoticed.

Andersonisgod

Blue giant wrote: »

Okay but by that logic Ryan Giggs is one of the best players in the world ever :rolleyes:

I never said medals are the sole measuring stick of a players career, however I do also believe that they should be taken into account, along with their contributions to those trophy wins when speaking of a player. So yes, when we discuss Giggs we should consider his medal haul.

Andersonisgod

CSF wrote: »

That's fine, and you're absolutely entitled to that opinion, but I do feel obliged to point out that the opinion of the forum was almost unanimously that it was in fact you who was the most biased, and not the bastion of knowledge and footballing intellect that you've claimed.

To steal a catchphrase, "do I look like I'm bovvered?" On a forum in which the majority of fans either support Man Utd or Liverpool and in which I've regularly and openly argued against claims that fans of those respective clubs have made I accept that for such nonsense awards I will be a target. However I think I know Barcelona quite well, I know football quite well and I have absolutely no problem with espousing the qualities of this Barcelona team or Barcelona as a club. It's the greatest team of it's generation, maybe the greatest football team ever and I don't believe it's biased to say as much. All in all I'd say I'm balanced if anything.

Kirby

Andersonisgod wrote: »

I couldn't care less where Busquets finishes in the Balon D'or, his entire job revolves around going unnoticed.

Thats a ninja. Ninja's try to go unnoticed. Busquets is a footballer. Easy to spot him. Often seen rolling around pretending to be hurt.

Andersonisgod

Kirby wrote: »

Thats a ninja. Ninja's try to go unnoticed. Busquets is a footballer. Easy to spot him. Often seen rolling around pretending to be hurt.

Busquets is not too dissimilar to a ninja, described by Guardiola as a street fighter he is the enforcer in midfield, most of what he does goes unnoticed but, to quote Spain's World Cup winning manager "You watch the game, you don't see Busquets. You watch Busquets, you see the whole game." - Vincente Del Bosque

The Magnificent Falcowboys

A better comparison is Vidal in his prime V Keane, whilst Vidal has scored more goals Keanes leadership and will to win are unparalleled and make him the better player, he's like Rocky v the technically superior opponent, its his heart that defines him

You have to also consider that most of modern day midfielders play in midfields of 3 , Keane in his pomp was 1 of 2

gosplan

Can an OP request thread closure?

bucketybuck

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

Anyone think Keane could have played as a CB ala Mascherano at Barca?

Keane would have been a fantastic defender. As has already been pointed out though, unlike Mascherano he was far too good for any manager to even consider playing him anywhere but in midfield.

The deification of Mascherano following his superb world cup is quite remarkable. Here is a player who for most of his Barca career couldn't get into the team except as a stop gap squad player, and yet now some want to equate him with one of the greatest midfielders ever. Its amusing.

You think Keane would ever have been shifted around the team to cover positions as Mascherano was? Of course he woudn't, because Keane was an automatic first name on the team sheet. Keane was the most important player in teams that had the likes of Schmeichel, Stam, Giggs and Scholes. Mascherano, while a good player, has never been the most important player on any top team.

Might as well have a thread on who is better, Pique or Ferdinand. The usual suspect will vomit post after post about how Pique is better because of reasons, but the real world knows that there is only one answer to the question, just as in this thread.

Billy86

gosplan wrote: »

Agree on the first two. Last two I dunno.

I would put him above Ballack by a hair, though Ballack was more attacking like a Robson or Gerrard (and began to peak as Keane began to wane). Makelele though played a very different, more limited role - and was the best ever at it probably, huge fan of his (and his quick/short passing game is often criminally underrated). That said, when Keane played a role similar to Makelele after 2003, the Frenchman was the better of the two.

CSF

Andersonisgod wrote: »

To steal a catchphrase, "do I look like I'm bovvered?" On a forum in which the majority of fans either support Man Utd or Liverpool and in which I've regularly and openly argued against claims that fans of those respective clubs have made I accept that for such nonsense awards I will be a target. However I think I know Barcelona quite well, I know football quite well and I have absolutely no problem with espousing the qualities of this Barcelona team or Barcelona as a club. It's the greatest team of it's generation, maybe the greatest football team ever and I don't believe it's biased to say as much. All in all I'd say I'm balanced if anything.

Am I so out of touch? No, it's the children who are wrong.

Billy86

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Keane was not a good CB. That experiment was tried at United and it didn't work out. But that was later in his career when he had moved back. At his peak, he was an old fashioned CM as part of a two man midfield.

That could also be attributed to his hips going, after that he looked more and more like an oil tanker each month but was still able to get by on smarts. It would be interesting to see him at CB in a more possession heavy team like Barca during his peak, because making the correct, disciplined pass instead of looking for glory was something he was great at.

Andersonisgod

bucketybuck wrote: »

Keane would have been a fantastic defender. As has already been pointed out though, unlike Mascherano he was far too good for any manager to even consider playing him anywhere but in midfield.

The deification of Mascherano following his superb world cup is quite remarkable. Here is a player who for most of his Barca career couldn't get into the team except as a stop gap squad player, and yet now some want to equate him with one of the greatest midfielders ever. Its amusing.

You think Keane would ever have been shifted around the team to cover positions as Mascherano was? Of course he woudn't, because Keane was an automatic first name on the team sheet. Keane was the most important player in teams that had the likes of Schmeichel, Stam, Giggs and Scholes. Mascherano, while a good player, has never been the most important player on any top team.

Might as well have a thread on who is better, Pique or Ferdinand. The usual suspect will vomit post after post about how Pique is better because of reasons, but the real world knows that there is only one answer to the question, just as in this thread.

This is why I came into this thread originally, because this opinion is incorrect, it's wrong. Why? Let me explain.

Mascherano is not from Barcelona, he didn't come through La Masia, he hasn't spent the majority of his life learning to play the Barcelona way. He comes from Argentina, he was signed from Liverpool. When he arrived at Barcelona most thought he was there to be an alternate to Busquets, a replacement if Busquets was injured or suspended or needed to be rested. Guardiola shocked everyone by utilising him as a centre back. Contrary to an opinion I saw on this thread earlier, not everybody can play as a centre back at Barcelona, it takes a specific type of player. Here in Mascherano, Guardiola saw his man. He's already probably the best 1 vs 1 player on the planet, he's got tremendous recovery skills. heart, is a natural born leader and because of his time playing in midfield he is already far more adept on the ball than most centre backs will ever be. Brilliant. The downside is that because he has never played as a centre back his positioning will be off and his height is an issue. Anyone that knows about Guardiola will know that Pep would have absolutely loved the challenge of turning Mascherano from the best ball winning midfielder in the world into Barcelona's first choice centre back, just read "Pep Confidential" where it goes into detail the work Pep put into turning Javi Martinez into a centre back (also working on Boateng's positioning) and the enjoyment he got out of that. Here is a manager with bold ideas and great enthusiasm.
So Mascherano is now a centre back. Not because of the skills that he is lacking, but because of the skills that he possesses. Playing holding midfield for Barcelona is different to any other club, the demands are different, what you must be is different. As such, saying that Mascherano isn't as good based on him not getting into the Barcelona midfield is incorrect, no player could get past Busquets for that particular position in that particular team.

Mascherano has been far more than a squad player, he's Barcelona's first choice centre back with Pique. He has started in 2 of Barcelona's most recent Champions League successes. He's been at the heart of the defence for a few of their La Liga wins, he was the club's player of the season 2013-2014. He's an important player at the club, and generally one of the first names on the team sheet.

Why is there only one answer to that too? Because he played for Man Utd that makes him the only viable answer? Ask the same question on the continent and your answer might well be a different one.

Andersonisgod

CSF wrote: »

Am I so out of touch? No, it's the children who are wrong.

Odd reference, given that I'm the guy on this thread arguing against the crazy levels of nostalgia and Irish bias on this thread but hey, a reference is a reference!

Sand

Andersonisgod wrote: »

I have stated many times my disdain for the Balon D'or, I only referenced it here because so many on here seem to put stock in it. I couldn't care less where Busquets finishes in the Balon D'or, his entire job revolves around going unnoticed.

You were the first to introduce it on the thread, to dismiss Keane and his achievements in the game and as a player. My recollection is Busquets only featured on the shortlist once in 20th place. Is that your recollection too?

The reality is if Nickio Buttinio played for Barca, he'd be the a vastly superior player to Keane simply by pulling on a Barca shirt.

bucketybuck

Andersonisgod wrote: »

This is why I came into this thread originally, because this opinion is incorrect, it's wrong. Why? Let me explain.

Mascherano is not from Barcelona, he didn't come through La Masia, he hasn't spent the majority of his life learning to play the Barcelona way. He comes from Argentina, he was signed from Liverpool. When he arrived at Barcelona most thought he was there to be an alternate to Busquets, a replacement if Busquets was injured or suspended or needed to be rested. Guardiola shocked everyone by utilising him as a centre back. Contrary to an opinion I saw on this thread earlier, not everybody can play as a centre back at Barcelona, it takes a specific type of player. Here in Mascherano, Guardiola saw his man. He's already probably the best 1 vs 1 player on the planet, he's got tremendous recovery skills. heart, is a natural born leader and because of his time playing in midfield he is already far more adept on the ball than most centre backs will ever be. Brilliant. The downside is that because he has never played as a centre back his positioning will be off and his height is an issue. Anyone that knows about Guardiola will know that Pep would have absolutely loved the challenge of turning Mascherano from the best ball winning midfielder in the world into Barcelona's first choice centre back, just read "Pep Confidential" where it goes into detail the work Pep put into turning Javi Martinez into a centre back (also working on Boateng's positioning) and the enjoyment he got out of that. Here is a manager with bold ideas and great enthusiasm.
So Mascherano is now a centre back. Not because of the skills that he is lacking, but because of the skills that he possesses. Playing holding midfield for Barcelona is different to any other club, the demands are different, what you must be is different. As such, saying that Mascherano isn't as good based on him not getting into the Barcelona midfield is incorrect, no player could get past Busquets for that particular position in that particular team.

Mascherano has been far more than a squad player, he's Barcelona's first choice centre back with Pique. He has started in 2 of Barcelona's most recent Champions League successes. He's been at the heart of the defence for a few of their La Liga wins, he was the club's player of the season 2013-2014. He's an important player at the club, and generally one of the first names on the team sheet.

Why is there only one answer to that too? Because he played for Man Utd that makes him the only viable answer? Ask the same question on the continent and your answer might well be a different one.

More fool you if you think for one second I read any of that.

Andersonisgod

Sand wrote: »

You were the first to introduce it on the thread, to dismiss Keane and his achievements in the game and as a player. My recollection is Busquets only featured on the shortlist once in 20th place. Is that your recollection too?

The reality is if Nickio Buttinio played for Barca, he'd be the a vastly superior player to Keane simply by pulling on a Barca shirt.

Yes because apparently some people think it is important (usually Man Utd fans whenever Ronaldo is mentioned so I figured these were the same people supporting Keane). I've said, roughly a million times, I don't care at all about the Balon D'or, but others seem to.

If Nickio Buttinio had come through La Masia, into Barcelona B and then had been promoted to the first team at Barcelona, eventually displacing the mammoth Yaya Toure and becoming a lynchpin for Barcelona and Spain in the most successful period in the history of those two football teams then yes I would say he is better than Keane. If Nickio Buttinio had euologies such as:

"“Busquets is the best defensive central midfielder in the world. He's tactically very strong and will only become more important for Barcelona in the future. He can follow in the footsteps of Carles Puyol and Xavi. He's very humble and calm, but doesn't mind speaking up when he sees fit either. If I was reincarnated as a player, I'd like to be like him." - Pep Guardiola

“Without Busquets, Barcelona and Spain could never had achieved what we have achieved” - Xavi

"If I were a player, I would like to be like Busquets." - Vincente Del Bosque

“For me, Sergio Busquets is the best player in the world. He never plays badly, always solves all the problems.” - Pacho Maturana

"You watch the game, you don't see Busquets. You watch Busquets, you see the whole game." - Vincente Del Bosque

Then ye, I'd say Nickio Buttinio is the better player. Not because he put on the blaugrana shirt, but because of what he has done in that blaugrana shirt.

Andersonisgod

bucketybuck wrote: »

More fool you if you think for one second I read any of that.

Fighting reason, logic and a small bit of researched knowledge with ignorance, I'd love to say I'm surprised but alas I am not.

Sand

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Yes because apparently some people think it is important (usually Man Utd fans whenever Ronaldo is mentioned so I figured these were the same people supporting Keane). I've said, roughly a million times, I don't care at all about the Balon D'or, but others seem to.

You thought wrong, because no one mentioned it until you introduced it as a means to dismiss Keanes stature and recognition in the game.

If Nickio Buttinio had come through La Masia,

Its Nicky Butt we're talking about here.

And can we give the whole La Masia myth a bit of a rest please? Of the team that beat Juventus 3-1, only 3, arguably 4 if you include Pique followed this otherwise imaginary from boys to men, through the ranks, one club, learning at the feet of the masters progression you think is so unique to Barca. All the rest are products of someone else's youth system, coaches and philosophy.

Andersonisgod

Sand wrote: »

You thought wrong, because no one mentioned it until you introduced it as a means to dismiss Keanes stature and recognition in the game.



Its Nicky Butt we're talking about here.

And can we give the whole La Masia myth a bit of a rest please? Of the team that beat Juventus 3-1, only 3, arguably 4 if you include Pique followed this otherwise imaginary from boys to men, through the ranks, one club, learning at the feet of the masters progression you think is so unique to Barca. All the rest are products of someone else's youth system, coaches and philosophy.

I can't keep repeating myself on this point, just read the last two responses to this and take it that I said the same thing again.

I don't think you understand the effect that learning a football philosophy from a young age can have on you. Had Butt, or any other player, gone through La Masia they would be different players than they actually are, for better or worse. Why wouldn't you include Pique? Sure he moved to Man Utd when he got a bit older but he was at Barcelona from the age of 10, his grandfather is a former vice president of Barcelona, he couldn't be more Barcelona. btw I count Pique, Alba, Busuqets, Xavi, Iniesta, Pedro and Messi as La Masia products who all featured in the final. That brings us to 7. Don't let jealousy eat you up though.