Abortions for 3,735, minature flags for nobody

volchitsa

Electric Sheep wrote: »

Can a DNA test be performed on a fetus of under 12 weeks' gestation?

Sounds more like Saudi Arabia than China anyway doesn't it? I think there they require the husband's consent for just about anything, including contraception and abortion.

China has forced abortion though, but not depending on what either member of the couple may want, but because there a strict limit of how many children a couple is allowed to have. Forced abortion is an unforgivable assault on the woman, whoever orders it.

So anyway. Seems a very strange place for an anti-abortion poster to be praising.

volchitsa

The Golden Miller wrote: »

The man and the woman together

How would that work? Supposing the man wanted her to abort and she didn't, would she have to be anaesthetized against her will or something?

The Golden Miller

volchitsa wrote: »

Sounds more like Saudi Arabia than China anyway doesn't it? I think there they require the husband's consent for just about anything, including contraception and abortion.

China has forced abortion though, but not depending on what either member of the couple may want, but because there a strict limit of how many children a couple is allowed to have. Forced abortion is an unforgivable assault on the woman, whoever orders it.

So anyway. Seems a very strange place for an anti-abortion poster to be praising.

Taking what I said out of context? Pro-choice campaigners seem to be good at that

The Golden Miller

volchitsa wrote: »

How would that work? Supposing the man wanted her to abort and she didn't, would she have to be anaesthetized against her will or something?

No why would she? You again taking my point out of context and trying to present it as me saying a man should be able to do what he wants?

Kiwi in IE

The Golden Miller wrote: »

The man and the woman together

And what should the man do about it if he believes that the pregnant woman is not acting in the best interests of the foetus? Perhaps in such circumstances he should be given immediate sole custody of the foetus?

blacklilly

raze_them_all_ wrote: »

And yet there are never any charges against people who fail to commit suicide, it's almost like everyone knows it's an archaic law.

"Committing" suicide is not a used term any more. Suicide has been decrimilised and it is now reported as a death through suicide

The Golden Miller

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

And what should the man do about it if he believes that the pregnant woman is not acting in the best interests of the foetus? Perhaps in such circumstances he should be given immediate sole custody of the foetus?

Try and reason with her I would have thought?

lazygal

The Golden Miller wrote: »

The man and the woman together

If your girlfriend had decided to abort what rights would you have to stop her?

The Golden Miller

lazygal wrote: »

If your girlfriend had decided to abort what rights would you have to stop her?

None, which is wrong, which was the point

lazygal

The Golden Miller wrote: »

None, which is wrong, which was the point

How should you be able to stop her having an abortion?

volchitsa

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Taking what I said out of context? Pro-choice campaigners seem to be good at that

How is it out of context? You said China required the father's consent for a termination, I've no idea if that's true, but since I do know for sure that women are forced to have abortions if they have two children already (in some cases more depending) I don't think they are a society whose notion of personal rights is one that anyone who cares about human rights should be advocating. (I presume you believe your own stance on abortion is one that doesn't involve major human rights abuses?

stinkle

The Golden Miller wrote: »

The man and the woman together

And if the man is a rapist? Or isn't around anymore to ask? Would you be ok with your girlfriend making decisions about your body without your agreement?

The Golden Miller

volchitsa wrote: »

How is it out of context? You said China required the father's consent for a termination, I've no idea if that's true, but since I do know for sure that women are forced to have abortions if they have two children already (in some cases more depending) I don't think they are a society whose notion of personal rights is one that anyone who cares about human rights should be advocating. (I presume you believe your own stance on abortion is one that doesn't involve major human rights abuses?

But you are taking it out of context if you know I was specifically referring to one aspect, in which I was unsure if that was even the case. It could have been any country

volchitsa

The Golden Miller wrote: »

No why would she? You again taking my point out of context and trying to present it as me saying a man should be able to do what he wants?

No I'm not saying that, I'm asking how you would enforce this right you say men should have to choose whether or not their partners have an abortion in the case where the woman wants to keep the baby and the man wants her to abort?

What do you think should happen in that case? Should she have to have an abortion? How would that be done?

The Golden Miller

stinkle wrote: »

And if the man is a rapist? Or isn't around anymore to ask? Would you be ok with your girlfriend making decisions about your body without your agreement?

The line's get blurred if it's rape and I'm on the fence with that. Funny how pro-choicer's always have to resort to the exception to further their case. If he wasn't around to ask she should have to keep it as I'm against abortion in the majority of cases, with exceptions of course. Well if there was something in my body that was half hers, I'd give her exactly the same input

volchitsa

The Golden Miller wrote: »

But you are taking it out of context if you know I was specifically referring to one aspect, in which I was unsure if that was even the case. It could have been any country

I don't understand what your issue is with my post. If it isn't China, then where is it?
Because it does matter where it is : if it's a country that respects people's rights then it might be worth discussing, but if it's a country which regularly inflicts appalling human rights abuses on its citizens, then you should be aware of the company you are keeping with your suggestions. As does China.

That isn't taking it out of context, that is the context.

lazygal

The Golden Miller wrote: »

The line's get blurred if it's rape and I'm on the fence with that. Funny how pro-choicer's always have to resort to the exception to further their case. If he wasn't around to ask she should have to keep it as I'm against abortion in the majority of cases, with exceptions of course. Well if there was something in my body that was half hers, I'd give her exactly the same input

Which exceptions mean it's ok to kill the unborn? And why are the circumstances of conception relevant if abortion is a joint decision? How should a man be able to.decide on whether a woman has an abortion?

The Golden Miller

volchitsa wrote: »

No I'm not saying that, I'm asking how you would enforce this right you say men should have to choose whether or not their partners have an abortion in the case where the woman wants to keep the baby and the man wants her to abort?

What do you think should happen in that case? Should she have to have an abortion? How would that be done?

No she should keep obviously. If one partner wants it kept, and all is healthy, it should always be kept

The Golden Miller

volchitsa wrote: »

I don't understand what your issue is with my post. If it isn't China, then where is it?
Because it does matter where it is : if it's a country that respects people's rights then it might be worth discussing, but if it's a country which regularly inflicts appalling human rights abuses on its citizens, then you should be aware of the company you are keeping with your suggestions. As does China.

That isn't taking it out of context, that is the context.

My point was on the protection of fathers rights. That he should also get a say, and have to consent to the abortion. If that was the case in the UK I would have referenced them too. You walk to talk about China's economy while we're at it? Their relationship with North Korea? Or stick to the point?

volchitsa

The Golden Miller wrote: »

The line's get blurred if it's rape and I'm on the fence with that. Funny how pro-choicer's always have to resort to the exception to further their case. If he wasn't around to ask she should have to keep it as I'm against abortion in the majority of cases, with exceptions of course. Well if there was something in my body that was half hers, I'd give her exactly the same input

And if I were King of Siam I'd have a harem of men! Hardly going to happen though is it, so that's not exactly holding yourself to any sort of standard there, it's just bluffing.

lazygal

The Golden Miller wrote: »

No she should keep obviously. If one partner wants it kept, and all is healthy, it should always be kept

How can and should that be enforced if a woman wants an abortion instead? What would you do if your girlfriend decided abortion was the right choice?

The Golden Miller

lazygal wrote: »

Which exceptions mean it's ok to kill the unborn? And why are the circumstances of conception relevant if abortion is a joint decision? How should a man be able to.decide on whether a woman has an abortion?

Do you just reply with questions and attempt to pick hole's on other people's opinions, or can your form any for yourself?

FFA for example. I'm against abortion, and if both wanted it gone I'd still be against it. If one wants to keep it, then it should be kept. What don't you understand?

Kiwi in IE

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Try and reason with her I would have thought?

So you admit that he doesn't have any say about what she does if she chooses not to take his concerns into account? He can try and reason with her, but any decisions are ultimately hers, as it is her body?

stinkle

The Golden Miller wrote: »

The line's get blurred if it's rape and I'm on the fence with that. Funny how pro-choicer's always have to resort to the exception to further their case. If he wasn't around to ask she should have to keep it as I'm against abortion in the majority of cases, with exceptions of course. Well if there was something in my body that was half hers, I'd give her exactly the same input

Rape isn't an exception, it's more common that most people think. It's not all "woman attacked in dark alleyway", it's most often by a partner, friend or relative i.e. someone known to the victim, and may or may not involve drugs/alcohol.

She should have to keep it as *the man* isn't around to make a decision for her? Are you for real? If that's your attitude to women then I doubt you would let a partner make decisions on your behalf.

volchitsa

The Golden Miller wrote: »

No she should keep obviously. If one partner wants it kept, and all is healthy, it should always be kept

So what you're actually saying is that if one of the partners refuses the abortion, there should be no abortion. Only if both agree to abort it should be allowed. Is that it?

The Golden Miller

volchitsa wrote: »

And if I were King of Siam I'd have a harem of men! Hardly going to happen though is it, so that's not exactly holding yourself to any sort of standard there, it's just bluffing.

I wasn't the one who came up with the analogy, was I? If you think it's bluffing then fair enough, but I reckon you should take point with the person asking me these questions

inocybe

Electric Sheep wrote: »

But it CAN be done? That is interesting! I thought it could not be done until the fetus or baby was outside the womb, whether through birth or miscarriage.

Your reaction is strange. How is causing a miscarriage by an invasive test any different from an abortion?

The Golden Miller

volchitsa wrote: »

So what you're actually saying is that if one of the partners refuses the abortion, there should be no abortion. Only if both agree to abort it should be allowed. Is that it?

No there shouldn't be an abortion at all, least not if one want's to keep it

lazygal

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Do you just reply with questions and attempt to pick hole's on other people's opinions, or can your form any for yourself?

FFA for example. I'm against abortion, and if both wanted it gone I'd still be against it. If one wants to keep it, then it should be kept. What don't you understand?

I don't understand why abortion is ok in some circumstances like FFA but not others if as you say you think women should remain pregnant regardless of their wishes. How exactly can women be obliged to remain pregnant only because the man who supplied the sperm wants them too? You seem to.think pregnancy, labour and birth has no.effects whatsoever on women.

lazygal

The Golden Miller wrote: »

No there shouldn't be an abortion at all, least not if one want's to keep it

Unless there's a FFA as you said. Are you ok with abortion if a woman's life is at risk? Or her health? Why is it ok to have abortions in cases of FFA at 20 weeks but not for other reasons before 12 weeks?

The Golden Miller

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

So you admit that he doesn't have any say about what she does if she chooses not to take his concerns into account? He can try and reason with her, but any decisions are ultimately hers, as it is her body?

I don't think your analogy is like for like. If it was me and she didn't want to keep it, and I persuaded her to keep it, I wouldn't be pestering her every 2 seconds about what she's doing

volchitsa

The Golden Miller wrote: »

I wasn't the one who came up with the analogy, was I? If you think it's bluffing then fair enough, but I reckon you should take point with the person asking me these questions

I didn't think there was any analogy, not that I was asking about anyway.
You said that in China the father had to give his permission for an abortion and you thought this was an example that should be followed elsewhere. I pointed out that China is responsible for forced abortions on women, with or without the father's consent, so is hardly a good example in terms of human rights.

You got all sniffy about me taking your point out of context, but I'm still at a loss as to how it's out of context, my point is in the context of your example of China. And if it's not China, then unless you want to retract the claim, I think you need to say where it happens, because to my knowledge that sort of thing could only happen in countries where human rights abuses occur.

lazygal

The Golden Miller wrote: »

I don't think your analogy is like for like. If it was me and she didn't want to keep it, and I persuaded her to keep it, I wouldn't be pestering her every 2 seconds about what she's doing

Would you try to prevent her accessing abortion? If so, how?

K-9

The Golden Miller wrote: »

My point being the pro choice crowd have filled this thread up with arguments which have nothing to do with the vast majority of abortions

Yet we still wont legislate for rape and incest cases, you can't a rgue that's the pro choice sides fault. That's because any suggested small change to the law gets the rosary brigade conservatives out saying it will be the slippery slope and will be abused. Charitable and Christian sort they are.

The Golden Miller

lazygal wrote: »

I don't understand why abortion is ok in some circumstances like FFA but not others if as you say you think women should remain pregnant regardless of their wishes. How exactly can women be obliged to remain pregnant only because the man who supplied the sperm wants them too? You seem to.think pregnancy, labour and birth has no.effects whatsoever on women.

I'd say the lack of a brain. What do you think?

What about a guy committing suicide from depression after being made up that he was going to be a dad, and then it was robbed from him. Or are you only concerned about the women?

Kiwi in IE

The Golden Miller wrote: »

No there shouldn't be an abortion at all, least not if one want's to keep it

How should this be enforced? If she wants to go to England for an abortion and he doesn't want her to, what can he do about it? Do you think that he should be able to have her imprisoned to force her to continue with the pregnancy?

volchitsa

The Golden Miller wrote: »

No there shouldn't be an abortion at all, least not if one want's to keep it

I asked you what if both want to abort? Would you agree with an abortion then?

lazygal

The Golden Miller wrote: »

I'd say the lack of a brain. What do you think?

What about a guy committing suicide from depression after being made up that he was going to be a dad, and then it was robbed from him. Or are you only concerned about the women?

So to stop men committing suicide women should be forced to remain pregnant? How would that work exactly? Should the right to travel be repealed and all women checked to make sure every cycle they aren't pregnant and aren't having abortions? What about women who have to go through pregnancy and labour and birth? You don't seem to care a jot.about your girlfriend going through all.that.

The Golden Miller

volchitsa wrote: »

I didn't think there was any analogy, not that I was asking about anyway.
You said that in China the father had to give his permission for an abortion and you thought this was an example that should be followed elsewhere. I pointed out that China is responsible for forced abortions on women, with or without the father's consent, so is hardly a good example in terms of human rights.

You got all sniffy about me taking your point out of context, but I'm still at a loss as to how it's out of context, my point is in the context of your example of China. And if it's not China, then unless you want to retract the claim, I think you need to say where it happens, because to my knowledge that sort of thing could only happen in countries where human rights abuses occur.

Right, scratch China. I think the father also having to consent to an abortion is a good idea. With the semantics out of the way, we back on the same page?

lazygal

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Right, scratch China. I think the father also having to consent to an abortion is a good idea. With the semantics out of the way, we back on the same page?

So the man gets the final say. Why?

volchitsa

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Right, scratch China. I think the father also having to consent to an abortion is a good idea. With the semantics out of the way, we back on the same page?

And what happens if the woman wants the abortion anyway? Should she be locked up? How would you stop her exactly?

The Golden Miller

lazygal wrote: »

So to stop men committing suicide women should be forced to remain pregnant? How would that work exactly? Should the right to travel be repealed and all women checked to make sure every cycle they aren't pregnant and aren't having abortions? What about women who have to go through pregnancy and labour and birth? You don't seem to care a jot.about your girlfriend going through all.that.

You seem to be mixing my opinions up with laws that women can bend. All I hear is "what about women, what about woman"

The Golden Miller

volchitsa wrote: »

And what happens if the woman wants the abortion anyway? Should she be locked up? How would you stop her exactly?

I dunno, I don't make the laws. I'm just against abortion

K-9

The Golden Miller wrote: »

I'd say the lack of a brain. What do you think?

What about a guy committing suicide from depression after being made up that he was going to be a dad, and then it was robbed from him. Or are you only concerned about the women?

So basically its from a fathers have no rights so therefor pregnant women should have none either, a twisted equality point of view.

stinkle

The Golden Miller wrote: »

You seem to be mixing my opinions up with laws that woman can bend. All I hear is "what about women, what about woman"

That'd be because it's a women's rights issue.

The Golden Miller

lazygal wrote: »

So the man gets the final say. Why?

It's called equality

lazygal

The Golden Miller wrote: »

You seem to be mixing my opinions up with laws that woman can bend. All I hear is "what about women, what about woman"

Because they are the ones who go through pregnancy, labour and birth. Like your girlfriend, remember her? Why should women remain pregnant because a man might commit suicide?

stinkle

The Golden Miller wrote: »

It's called equality

HOw is it equality if one party (who doesnt have to deal with the reality of the situation) has a veto?

lazygal

The Golden Miller wrote: »

It's called equality

How is it equality if the man gets to decide whether a woman can have an abortion?

The Golden Miller

stinkle wrote: »

That'd be because it's a women's rights issue.

It's nothing to do with women's rights in my opinion. If anything, it's more along the line or "fcuk the man and babies rights"