Abortions for 3,735, minature flags for nobody

frostyjacks

gctest50 wrote: »

de people joe ......... and that was the problem

voting should have been restricted to :

women 21 - 35 ( nice wide margin there )

except

no nuns ( won't be having none ) no creche workers, nurses,teachers and a few more

So the gay marriage referendum should have been restricted to homosexuals? That's some logic.

Nodin

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

And they had one before the same sex marriage referendum saying it would be 80:20. I just don't think that there would be as many supporting the rape scenario after the canvassing and campaigning is done. They are different issues and shouldn't be lumped together.

They'd have to be dealt with simultaneously, lets face it. I still think a majority would support abortion in both scenarios.

gctest50

frostyjacks wrote: »

So the gay marriage referendum should have been restricted to homosexuals? That's some logic.

not really the same thing now is it - anyway just a a rough idea

bit more like people here being allowed to vote in say ....... israeli elections

Riskymove

frostyjacks wrote: »

If a neighbouring country has abortion-on-demand that's no reason for us to change our constitution. It's fine the way it is, the people voted for it already.

that's maybe fine for independent, financially sound adults

what about others?

What does a raped 13 year old do?

or a raped person of limited mental state?

What does someone under state care do?



and even with all that, if the view is that it is fine because the UK have it then it really is the most cowardly, hypocritical position we could have

Muahahaha

frostyjacks wrote: »

If a neighbouring country has abortion-on-demand that's no reason for us to change our constitution. It's fine the way it is, the people voted for it already.

I'd say the more than 200,000 Irish women who've had abortions in the UK would disagree with you. Would you want your sister or girlfriend to have to go through that experience, with no medical or counselling support for you from the HSE when you get back home? Its like Ireland's dirty little secret, everyone want to pretend that everything is fine the way it is, when clearly the system is completely failing the women of Ireland so the State can sweep the problem under the carpet and pretend it doesn't exist.

super_furry

For far too long, too many people have spent far too much time telling other people what to do with their bodies. Abortion should be an option for any woman who needs to have one.

galljga1

07Lapierre wrote: »

What about the eggs that are not fertalised every month? what about all those poor sperm that actually make into the fallopioan tubes, but only the fastest/strongest one makes it to the bloddy egg! :rolleyes:

What about socks?

frostyjacks

Muahahaha wrote: »

I'd say the more than 200,000 Irish women who've had abortions in the UK would disagree with you. Would you want your sister or girlfriend to have to go through that experience, with no medical or counselling support for you from the HSE when you get back home? Its like Ireland's dirty little secret, everyone want to pretend that everything is fine the way it is, when clearly the system is completely failing the women of Ireland so the State can sweep the problem under the carpet and pretend it doesn't exist.

Where's this 200,000 figure come from? Abortion on demand is wrong, unethical. Our constitution reflects that. If anyone has a dirty little secret it's people who are pushing this issue and using rape victims as a human shield.

gctest50

NachoBusiness wrote: »

.........

Thankfully most abortions are carried out before 13 weeks and only around 10% between 14 and 24 but it's still far too many in my view.

you won't ever be having one

Valetta

super_furry wrote: »

For far too long, too many people have spent far too much time telling other people what to do with their bodies. Abortion should be an option for any woman who needs to have one.

Needs, or wants?

Little CuChulainn

Nodin wrote: »

They'd have to be dealt with simultaneously, lets face it. I still think a majority would support abortion in both scenarios.

No they wouldn't. They could be dealt with as individual subsections to be added to the original Article.

Brancott

Ah the Irish solution to the Irish problem, let just export it to the UK.

My wife had an abortion years before we met.
During her antenatal scans she'd be asked how many pregnancies she had.
She was honest & said 2 pregnancies & 1 birth, or 3 & 2, or 4 & 3.
When quizzed on the discrepancy she'd be honest & admit a previous termination, the silence in the room would be deafening.

super_furry

Valetta wrote: »

Needs, or wants?

Either's fine by me.

Riskymove

super_furry wrote: »

Either's fine by me.

TBH I am not for abortion without limits

and usually once you talk about details, most people realize they are not either.

For example, would you be happy with people choosing to abort a child based on gender?

or to have an abortion at say, 8 months?

Muahahaha

frostyjacks wrote: »

Where's this 200,000 figure come from? Abortion on demand is wrong, unethical. Our constitution reflects that. If anyone has a dirty little secret it's people who are pushing this issue and using rape victims as a human shield.

Our constitution reflects the thinking of 1983 Catholic Church Ireland, many of those who voted against it are now long dead, hence why an amendment needs to be put to the people to repeal the 8th.

Are you saying you would be in favour of a rape victim being forced by the State to have the baby?

Valetta

super_furry wrote: »

Either's fine by me.

So you'd approve of abortion as a social choice?

Have to say I'd disagree strongly.

frostyjacks

frostyjacks wrote: »

If a neighbouring country has abortion-on-demand that's no reason for us to change our constitution.

People campaigning for abortion rights don't want them because a neighbouring country has them they want it because they are needed.

frostyjacks wrote: »

It's fine the way it is, the people voted for it already.

Nobody under the age of 53 voted on the Eighth Amendment.

Nobody under the age of 44 voted on the Thirteenth and Fourteenth Amendments.

I suspect the profile of voters has changed somewhat in the past 20 years.

Ash.J.Williams

RobertKK wrote: »

If we had someone who murdered someone, they spend lets say 20 years in jail, they then go to a country where the death penalty is allowed, the same person murders someone there. They execute the person for murder.
Does that mean we should have had the death penalty, because a foreign country removed the life of the murderer?

This is the argument you are using.

or more accurately what if your daughter traveled to the Uk for an abortion and on the plane home on the same day started to bleed in agony, wouldn't you rather she got professional help nearer home?

c_man

I think even if we had abortion 'on demand' here, most non-medical emergency ones would still be carried out in England. Ireland's a small place.

That's not to say we should bury our heads about it.

super_furry

Valetta wrote: »

So you'd approve of abortion as a social choice?

Have to say I'd disagree strongly.

Don't think I'd approve or disapprove unless I was directly involved and in any one of 100 different situations who knows how I'd feel? But as a man who will never be really be affected by the ban on abortion, I support lifting it and giving women a choice.

Muahahaha

super_furry wrote: »

Don't think I'd approve or disapprove unless I was directly involved and in any one of 100 different situations who knows how I'd feel? But as a man who will never be really be affected by the ban on abortion, I support lifting it and giving women a choice.

Thats exactly how I'd see it. If people don't agree with abortion then there's a simple solution- don't have one. But their opinions shouldn't deny the ability of others access to one when it is most needed, especially in the instances of rape and fatal foetal abnormalities.

Brancott

super_furry wrote: »

For far too long, too many people have spent far too much time telling other people what to do with their bodies. Abortion should be an option for any woman who needs to have one.

I think you'll find a group of middle-aged & elderly men sitting across a mahogany table is & always has been the perfect forum for deciding what's best for women.

Conn Ward was an Irish Fianna Fáil politician and medical doctor.
In 1944 Ward banned tampons from the Irish market after fears were expressed from religious circles that they could result in female stimulation. In 1946 he was drawing up legislation for a bill that prefigured, and formed much of, Noël Browne's Mother and Child Scheme.

Pumpkinseeds

RobertKK wrote: »

The people of 1983 were not cowards, they voted for what they believed, like the people of 2015 did in the most recent referendums.
Should we just keep voting on the same referendums because some are unable to accept what was the will of the people, like we do with European referendums?
Would you be happy to re-visit referendums like the same sex marriage referendum in the future?

In 1983 contraception was at the discretion of the gp, who could refuse to provide contraception if it were against their religious beliefs or they just chose not to provide it. You couldn't even buy condoms. It was a different age and views were very different. Another referendum is needed, and yes, if abortion is not legalised in Ireland there should be regular referendums until women are given the right to end a pregnancy in their home country and not forced to either go through an unwanted pregnancy or travel abroad to terminate. The only person with any rights over a pregnancy should be the pregnant woman.

mark13

Ireland is a backwards country full of backwards people, we still have a healthy percentage of insecure, impotent men who hate the idea of women having control over their own bodies, and far too many brainwashed women who don't know any better.

The old Catholic guilt hasn't fecked off yet, the sooner the old generation dies off the better.

Little CuChulainn

Muahahaha wrote: »

Thats exactly how I'd see it. If people don't agree with abortion then there's a simple solution- don't have one. But their opinions shouldn't deny the ability of others access to one when it is most needed, especially in the instances of rape and fatal foetal abnormalities.

You are ignoring the reason that people don't believe in it. Most people do not support abortion because they value the life of the unborn child as much as the life of the mother.

The Corinthian

Cuban Pete wrote: »

Every sperm and egg has the potential to go on and be: our sisters, our daughters, our cousins, our friends, not just numbers on a page.

Or they could become the next Hitler, or worse still, Justin Bieber!

efb

I have full autonomy over my body, but in this country thats only because I'm male

frostyjacks

Muahahaha wrote: »

Our constitution reflects the thinking of 1983 Catholic Church Ireland, many of those who voted against it are now long dead, hence why an amendment needs to be put to the people to repeal the 8th.

Are you saying you would be in favour of a rape victim being forced by the State to have the baby?

Hold another referendum because the first one happened a while ago? That's a pretty weak argument. People may have come and gone, but I don't think attitudes towards abortion have changed over the years.

efb

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

You are ignoring the reason that people don't believe in it. Most people do not support abortion because they value the life of the unborn child as much as the life of the mother.

Why should a human zygote have the same rights as a human woman?

c_man

efb wrote: »

I have full autonomy over my body, but in this country thats only because I'm male

You can't (legally) kill yourself though.

raze_them_all_

Can you give birth? are you forced to carry something around in you for 9 months??

If not then tbh you should shut the **** up and let the women have the choice

raze_them_all_

c_man wrote: »

You can't (legally) kill yourself though.

And yet there are never any charges against people who fail to commit suicide, it's almost like everyone knows it's an archaic law.

frostyjacks

raze_them_all_ wrote: »

Can you give birth? are you forced to carry something around in you for 9 months??

If not then tbh you should shut the **** up and let the women have the choice

Someone has to speak up for the unborn, whether you like it or not.

raze_them_all_

frostyjacks wrote: »

Someone has to speak up for the unborn, whether you like it or not.

Until it breathes by itself it's not life and there are plenty of women against abortion that can do that

c_man

raze_them_all_ wrote: »

Can you give birth? are you forced to carry something around in you for 9 months??

If not then tbh you should shut the **** up and let the women have the choice

And the women who are infertile/past child bearing age, they should shut up too right?

NachoBusiness

Muahahaha wrote: »

If people don't agree with abortion then there's a simple solution- don't have one. .

That's about as helpful to the debate as when my side of it says stuff like:

"If you don't want to have a baby, don't get pregnant".

Ie: not very.

efb

frostyjacks wrote: »

Someone has to speak up for the unborn, whether you like it or not.

Why? What reasons do you have for putting the rights of a zygote ahead of a woman?

mark13

NachoBusiness wrote: »

The aborted have the potential to go on and be: our sisters, our daughters, our cousins, our friends, not just numbers on a page.

Have you ever used any kind of contraception?

And if you have, think of all the brothers, sisters and friends you've denied us! You must suffer terrible guilt over all of this, or is it just that you like women to suffer?

raze_them_all_

c_man wrote: »

And the women who are infertile/past child bearing age, they should shut up too right?

will abortion effect those women?

The Corinthian

efb wrote: »

I have full autonomy over my body, but in this country thats only because I'm male

Can you have elective amputations if you're a man?

efb wrote: »

Why should a zygote have the same rights as a human woman?

Who said anything about the same rights? You want it to have the vote?
And isn't a zygote not also human? Is it a cow?

raze_them_all_

The Corinthian wrote: »

Can you have elective amputations if you're a man?

Who said anything about the same rights? You want it to have the vote?
And isn't a zygote not also human? Is it a cow?

It can be a cow yes.


But way to science.

Little CuChulainn

efb wrote: »

Why should a zygote have the same rights as a human woman?

I appreciate that you are trying to make your argument seem stronger but we both know that abortions at the zygote stage are non existent.

raze_them_all_ wrote: »

Can you give birth? are you forced to carry something around in you for 9 months??

If not then tbh you should shut the **** up and let the women have the choice

I'm not going to marry a dude either. Should I not have voted for same sex marriage? I will never have a symphysiotomy so should I withdraw my support for the campaign to have sufferers compensated. I'm pretty sure I will never be the victim of ethnic genocide in Africa. Should I ignore it? Society is not about doing what is right for yourself.

captbarnacles

efb wrote: »

I have full autonomy over my body, but in this country thats only because I'm male

This is my view. I believe in full body autonomy for everybody so that takes precedence over any other factor.

raze_them_all_

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

I appreciate that you are trying to make your argument seem stronger but we both know that abortions at the zygote stage are non existent.



I'm not going to marry a dude either. Should I not have voted for same sex marriage? I will never have a symphysiotomy so should I withdraw my support for the campaign to have sufferers compensated. I'm pretty sure I will never be the victim of ethnic genocide in Africa. Should I ignore it? Society is not about doing what is right for yourself.

I'm a dude, doubt voting to give women the choice for abortions is about myself.

c_man

raze_them_all_ wrote: »

will abortion effect those women?

So that's a yes. Interesting. So only each particularly affected group should decide/care about the issues affecting them and only them. Wow.

raze_them_all_

c_man wrote: »

So that's a yes. Interesting. So only each particularly affected group should decide/care about the issues affecting them and only them. Wow.

will it effect you? no? will it benefit others? yes? Then why would you deny people that?


I wonder how many anti abortion people would be so staunch if it was their daughters lives at risk? or if it was there daughters that got pregnant by rape? would they still demand its carried full term and abortion is murder?

The Corinthian

raze_them_all_ wrote: »

It can be a cow yes.

Well, I can't object to abortions of cow zygotes, to be fair, although I'd rather not ask how a woman ended up with one in the first place.

c_man

raze_them_all_ wrote: »

will it effect you? no? will it benefit others? yes? Then why would you deny people that?

I wouldn't deny it at all. All the rest of your points are debatable.

Taxpayers only voting in the general election next, right?

efb

Here's a quick training manual for the pro lifers

http://prolifetraining.com/resources/five-minute-12/

efb

the unborn could also be a cow or does the term unborn only apply to humans???