Abortions for 3,735, minature flags for nobody

orubiru

Yadiel Nutritious Apartment wrote: »

Because that's not how society works, people don't have the right to do as they want in many circumstances no matter how much they want to. When a baby is growing then she is no longer only deciding about her body but also that of an unborn baby.

Then why do most developed countries in the world allow abortion?

Why is the UN putting pressure on Ireland to allow abortion?

What special insight do you have that the United Nations and the government of the UK (and the medical professionals advising them) have overlooked?

Shenshen

Shenshen wrote: »

Well, this whole "they have to be forced to live with the consequences of their mistakes" when it comes to unwanted pregnancies rather does sound like you'd want to see people punished for being not careful enough when having sex.
And the punishment of choice appears to be children.

They do have to live with the consequences but I don't mean it as the children being as punishment.

I completely understand that its a very difficult situation and I would feel very sorry for someone in the situation of an unplanned pregnancy and certainly would not in anyway see the pregnancy as punishment for a what ever reason led to the pregnancy.

However I do not agree with abortion nor would I want to see Ireland bring in laws like the UK etc.

Ash.J.Williams

it's this simple....
i am a father- the life of my kid started after the pregnancy test

if we did not want the kid then life would not have begun after the pregnancy test


it's CHOICE

orubiru

Yadiel Nutritious Apartment wrote: »

They do have to live with the consequences but I don't mean it as the children being as punishment.

I completely understand that its a very difficult situation and I would feel very sorry for someone in the situation of an unplanned pregnancy and certainly would not in anyway see the pregnancy as punishment for a what ever reason led to the pregnancy.

However I do not agree with abortion nor would I want to see Ireland bring in laws like the UK etc.

OK, but have you considered why countries like the UK have such laws?

Don't you wonder why the UN, for example, is putting pressure on Ireland to bring in laws like the UK?

The Corinthian

orubiru wrote: »

Raise the age of consent and the "inexperience" level stays the same. If your first time getting laid happens at 17 or 25 it's still your first time.

I don't think you understand what personal responsibility means.

Personal responsibility means that even if you're inexperienced, then you are mature enough to inform yourself and take precautions. If someone is 18 and acts irresponsibly, either by drinking and driving or having unprotected sex, then society (regardless of whether abortion is legal or not) will judge them to be responsible for their actions.

Who is saying that there is no responsibility? I am sure that an abortion isn't a walk in the park.

I really have no idea why you keep on bringing abortion into this. Does age make any difference to the legality of abortion in Ireland? Or anywhere else? How is abortion relevant to this particular argument?

Shenshen

Yadiel Nutritious Apartment wrote: »

They do have to live with the consequences but I don't mean it as the children being as punishment.

I completely understand that its a very difficult situation and I would feel very sorry for someone in the situation of an unplanned pregnancy and certainly would not in anyway see the pregnancy as punishment for a what ever reason led to the pregnancy.

However I do not agree with abortion nor would I want to see Ireland bring in laws like the UK etc.

So you're happy to keep the status quo?
Abortions are available for most women living in Ireland, budget airlines have been a great equaliser in that sense.

Irish women abort, by the thousands, every year. And rather than face up to this reality, and make the procedure and good after-care available here, people go on about how things "should" be. Ideology vs reality.

Ash.J.Williams

Praise abort – til linndeman
[Intro]
I like to ****, but no French letter
Without a condom, the sex is better
But every time I get it in
A baby cries and sometimes twins

[Verse 1]
I have six kids and I don't like it
They eat too much and treat me like ****
They only wear Posh label clothes
I give them one hand, they bite off both
And all my friends, they have big cars
Big mansions, too, and smoke the fine cigars
They have deep pockets, I don't know why
I look at my purse and start to cry
Why?

[Chorus]
I hate my life, and I hate you
I hate my wife, and her boyfriend, too
I hate to hate, and I hate that
I hate my life so very bad
I hate my kids, never thought
That I'd praise abort
Praise abort

[Verse 2]
I like to ****, but no French letter
Cause without kids, life is so much better
So in the end, I got forced
To stay away from female intercourse

[Chorus]
I hate my life, and I hate you
I hate my wife, and her boyfriend, too
I hate to hate, and I hate that
I hate my life so very bad
I hate my kids, never thought
That I'd praise abort
Praise abort

[Break]
Say goodbye, say goodbye
We rise up, up to the sky
Say goodbye, we'll come back
Soon as pretty butterflies
Make you cry

[Chrous/Outro]
I hate my life, and I hate you
I hate my wife, and my boyfriend, too
I hate to hate, and I hate that
I hate myself so very bad
I hate my offspring, never thought
That I'd praise abort
I praise abort

The Corinthian

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

i am a father- the life of my kid started after the pregnancy test

Schrödinger's fetus?

orubiru

orubiru wrote: »

OK, but have you considered why countries like the UK have such laws?

Just because another country allows questionable practices doesn't mean we should.

We should be proud of how Ireland does not allow abortions on demand.

Shenshen wrote: »

So you're happy to keep the status quo?
Abortions are available for most women living in Ireland, budget airlines have been a great equaliser in that sense.

Irish women abort, by the thousands, every year. And rather than face up to this reality, and make the procedure and good after-care available here, people go on about how things "should" be. Ideology vs reality.

We should be working very hard to discourage people going abroad for abortions also on top of keeping our laws as they are.

Shenshen

Yadiel Nutritious Apartment wrote: »

We should be working very hard to discourage people going abroad for abortions also on top of keeping our laws as they are.

Again with the "should"...

Shenshen

Shenshen wrote: »

Again with the "should"...

Well it is already heavily discouraged.

Just because people go is abroad a reason for Ireland to lower its moral standards. At least we can say we did our best to give the children a chance at life by not allowing it to happen here.

orubiru

The Corinthian wrote: »

I really have no idea why you keep on bringing abortion into this. Does age make any difference to the legality of abortion in Ireland? Or anywhere else? How is abortion relevant to this particular argument?

Read the thread title. Thanks.

The Corinthian

Shenshen wrote: »

Again with the "should"...

Where would you suggest 'should' would be acceptable in this discussion?

The Corinthian

orubiru wrote: »

Read the thread title. Thanks.

You clearly didn't - I did repeatedly ask the relevance of abortion to this tangent of yours, and I'm still waiting for a response.

orubiru

Yadiel Nutritious Apartment wrote: »

Just because another country allows questionable practices doesn't mean we should.

We should be proud of how Ireland does not allow abortions on demand.

OK, now neither of those two statements are answers to the questions that I asked.

Let's try again?

Have you considered why countries like the UK have the abortion laws that they do?

Don't you wonder why the UN, for example, is putting pressure on Ireland to bring in laws like those in the UK?

I'd say if I were going to argue against abortion I'd want to understand the reasoning process that has led to it not only being legal in most developed countries but also why it is a thing that the UN is encouraging Ireland to implement the same kind of regulations as the UK etc.

orubiru

The Corinthian wrote: »

You clearly didn't - I did repeatedly ask the relevance of abortion to this tangent of yours, and I'm still waiting for a response.

It wasn't relevant and I didn't want to stay off on a tangent.

So, trying to get back on topic. If that's OK with you?

orubiru

orubiru wrote: »

OK, now neither of those two statements are answers to the questions that I asked.

Let's try again?

Have you considered why countries like the UK have the abortion laws that they do?

Don't you wonder why the UN, for example, is putting pressure on Ireland to bring in laws like those in the UK?

I'd say if I were going to argue against abortion I'd want to understand the reasoning process that has led to it not only being legal in most developed countries but also why it is a thing that the UN is encouraging Ireland to implement the same kind of regulations as the UK etc.

The UN are contradicting their own ethics on valuing life by agreeing with abortion so they would want to sort out their own house before calling on Ireland or anywhere else to change their laws.

orubiru

Yadiel Nutritious Apartment wrote: »

The UN are contradicting their own ethics on valuing life by agreeing with abortion so they would want to sort out their own house before calling on Ireland or anywhere else to change their laws.

Once again, you avoided giving answers to the questions that I asked.

Have you considered why countries like the UK have the abortion laws that they do?

Don't you wonder why the UN, for example, is putting pressure on Ireland to bring in laws like those in the UK?

Seriously, why are they doing that? If it's so obviously wrong then why can't they see it?

K-9

nc19 wrote: »

Not sure where you're from but the youth I see pregnant are far from educated. While I think abortion should be legal here these types of people will use it as a contraception imo but that's the beauty of democracy, everyone has the same rights.........

Teenage pregnancies are down substantially over the last decade.

If anything going by the stats, it's very much older women who use abortion as a contraceptive. Some older people have a lot to learn when it comes to std's as well, young people can get an undeserved bad press in that regard.

The Corinthian

orubiru wrote: »

It wasn't relevant and I didn't want to stay off on a tangent.

So, trying to get back on topic. If that's OK with you?

Not quite. If you knew it wasn't relevant, why did you bring it up in the first place?

paperclip2

Also contraception can fail.
So what 'should' be done in a case where a married couple, who were medically advised not to have any more children because of health reasons become pregnant despite using both the pill and condoms?

orubiru

orubiru wrote: »

Once again, you avoided giving answers to the questions that I asked.

Have you considered why countries like the UK have the abortion laws that they do?

Don't you wonder why the UN, for example, is putting pressure on Ireland to bring in laws like those in the UK?

Seriously, why are they doing that? If it's so obviously wrong then why can't they see it?

The fact they are doing it and think its right does not make it right.

Its a really really sad reflection on society when the people opposing the killing of unborn babies are the ones who are expected to explain themselves.

Shenshen

Yadiel Nutritious Apartment wrote: »

Well it is already heavily discouraged.

Just because people go is abroad a reason for Ireland to lower its moral standards. At least we can say we did our best to give the children a chance at life by not allowing it to happen here.

So you prefer to neglect the medical care and needs of the women who did go to the UK for abortions, in favour of morals and how things "should" be? Good to know.

The Corinthian

K-9 wrote: »

Some older people have a lot to learn when it comes to std's as well, young people can get an undeserved bad press in that regard.

Someone was telling me recently that baby-boomers are actually presently responsible for much of the STD increases in the West.

Bloody hippies.

Shenshen

The Corinthian wrote: »

Where would you suggest 'should' would be acceptable in this discussion?

Anywhere were it's not followed by unfounded expectations of reality.

_Whimsical_

orubiru wrote: »

OK, but have you considered why countries like the UK have such laws?

Don't you wonder why the UN, for example, is putting pressure on Ireland to bring in laws like the UK?

There are lots of reasons why the UK have those laws, among them would be financial reasons, they'd prefer abort unwanted babies than have them be a burden on the state. They've shown little commitment to the wellbeing of abused children and teenagers as has been obvious in the recent Rotherham cases. I think they're happy to dispose of the symptom of many societal problems through abortion rather than address causes.
They also encourage abortion of babies found to have disabilities while still in the womb, some as slight as having a cleft palate deformity that can be corrected with minor surgery in many cases.
It's very difficult to feel comfortable with ALL that goes on under the UK abortion laws.

I would think that it is disingenuous to imagine those laws exist solely to allow women greater choice and self-determination.

I'm not sure how I feel about abortion, I'm definitely uncomfortable with it being on demand and totally against late term except in life threatening circumstances, but I do recognise some cases outside those parameters do require it. I wouldn't look to the UK as a great example though.

The Corinthian

paperclip2 wrote: »

So what 'should' be done in a case where a married couple, who were medically advised not to have any more children because of health reasons become pregnant despite using both the pill and condoms?

One or both of them to get sterilized FFS. If it's potentially that serious a health issue, they'd have to be gobshìtes not to do so.

_Whimsical_

paperclip2 wrote: »

Also contraception can fail.
So what 'should' be done in a case where a married couple, who were medically advised not to have any more children because of health reasons become pregnant despite using both the pill and condoms?

If pregnancy is dangerous for a woman she will be granted an abortion under our present laws since The Life of the Mother amendment, I think?

paperclip2

paperclip2 wrote: »

Also contraception can fail.
So what 'should' be done in a case where a married couple, who were medically advised not to have any more children because of health reasons become pregnant despite using both the pill and condoms?

The chances of both failing are extremely slim so not a great example. As other have said there are also more permanent ways to prevent pregnancy.

However I would say that if there is a very very high chance of danger to the mother then we are moving into the territory of exceptional circumstances. Circumstance which our current laws already allow for.

Shenshen

The Corinthian wrote: »

One or both of them to get sterilized FFS. If it's potentially that serious a health issue, they'd have to be gobshìtes not to do so.

You realise that even that is not always entirely failsafe?

Shenshen

Shenshen wrote: »

So you prefer to neglect the medical care and needs of the women who did go to the UK for abortions, in favour of morals and how things "should" be? Good to know.

They are making the decision to go, they can have all the medical care they want here should they choose to have the baby.

inocybe

K-9 wrote: »

Teenage pregnancies are down substantially over the last decade.

If anything going by the stats, it's very much older women who use abortion as a contraceptive. Some older people have a lot to learn when it comes to std's as well, young people can get an undeserved bad press in that regard.

'abortion as a contraceptive' is a nonsensical phrase. People who are using contraceptives properly can also need abortions you know.

orubiru

Yadiel Nutritious Apartment wrote: »

The fact they are doing it and think its right does not make it right.

Its a really really sad reflection on society when the people opposing the killing of unborn babies are the ones who are expected to explain themselves.

So we are back to the "killing of unborn babies" nonsense?

Great.

Shenshen

Yadiel Nutritious Apartment wrote: »

They are making the decision to go, they can have all the medical care they want here should they choose to have the baby.

Interesting.

Based on that logic, should we also deny treatment to people who, say, had an accident while driving? They made the decision to drive, after all?

Shenshen

Shenshen wrote: »

Interesting.

Based on that logic, should we also deny treatment to people who, say, had an accident while driving? They made the decision to drive, after all?

Are you trying saying that a person presenting at a hospital in Ireland due to an abortion related complication would be denied treatment? Because they certainly would not.

Shenshen

Yadiel Nutritious Apartment wrote: »

Are you trying saying that a person presenting at a hospital in Ireland due to an abortion related complication would be denied treatment? Because they certainly would not.

Well, first they need to travel a few hours to get home, after having had a serious medical procedure. The travelling itself is quite an issue for many, a lot of them experience quite heavy bleeding. But unless they have the means to remain in the UK for a week or two, there's not a lot of choice for them.

There also is no real after care provided here, the women are pretty much left to themselves.

Shenshen

Shenshen wrote: »

Well, first they need to travel a few hours to get home, after having had a serious medical procedure. The travelling itself is quite an issue for many, a lot of them experience quite heavy bleeding. But unless they have the means to remain in the UK for a week or two, there's not a lot of choice for them.

There also is no real after care provided here, the women are pretty much left to themselves.

Or they could have their baby instead.

ProfessorPlum

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

If pregnancy is dangerous for a woman she will be granted an abortion under our present laws since The Life of the Mother amendment, I think?

She certainly will not be granted an abortion. At least not until her life is actually and substantially at risk. And as our doctors will tell us, that is not always an easy determination to make.

The Corinthian

Shenshen wrote: »

Anywhere were it's not followed by unfounded expectations of reality.

And who decides what are those?

For example, I might suggest, with your logic, that "men should not commit rape" is equally invalid as I suspect that some men will continue do do so, just as some people will continue to commit murder, even though they should not.

Shenshen wrote: »

You realise that even that is not always entirely failsafe?

Still better than condoms, which is what I was responding to.

_Whimsical_

Shenshen wrote: »

Well, first they need to travel a few hours to get home, after having had a serious medical procedure. The travelling itself is quite an issue for many, a lot of them experience quite heavy bleeding. But unless they have the means to remain in the UK for a week or two, there's not a lot of choice for them.

There also is no real after care provided here, the women are pretty much left to themselves.

From having a friend who lives in the UK who had an abortion that was her experience too. She wasn't offered aftercare and was told to go to her GP if she had any follow up problems. She had it Friday and was back to work Monday.
I'm not saying I think that's right, just that's how it happens it seems. Having to travel after would be utterly horrible I'm sure.

There are some services in Ireland ,the Family Planning Clinic is one, who offer post abortion counselling, but I'm sure there aren't enough.

ProfessorPlum

Yadiel Nutritious Apartment wrote: »

The chances of both failing are extremely slim so not a great example. As other have said there are also more permanent ways to prevent pregnancy.

However I would say that if there is a very very high chance of danger to the mother then we are moving into the territory of exceptional circumstances. Circumstance which our current laws already allow for.

As I've said. Our law only allows for the circumstance once the woman's life is in danger. Now, you might be happy to take that journey to the edge. Many are not. Nor should they be forced to.

Cuban Pete

Yadiel Nutritious Apartment wrote: »

Or they could be forced to have their baby instead.

FYP there.

_Whimsical_

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

She certainly will not be granted an abortion. At least not until her life is actually and substantially at risk. And as our doctors will tell us, that is not always an easy determination to make.

I think you are mistaken there. For example a woman with cancer can chose to have an abortion so she can proceed with treatment, no determination is made as to whether her cancer might kill her in the 7 months before the birth of her child, or that chemo would be better after the birth. Or where a woman might have a heart condition that would prevent her continuing a pregnancy safelyin the later stages, where there is a future risk to her life, she could have an abortion.
I think in the case outlined by the OP a woman can have an abortion if there is a real but non immediate threat to her life.

I haven't studied that now but I heard those two scenarios being outlined on the radio by a doctor and that was their opinion.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

ProfessorPlum

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

I think you are mistaken there. For example a woman with cancer can chose to have an abortion so she can proceed with treatment, no determination is made as to whether her cancer might kill her in the 7 months before the birth of her child, or that chemo would be better after the birth. Or where a woman might have a heart condition that would prevent her continuing a pregnancy safelyin the later stages, where there is a future risk to her life, she could have an abortion.
I think in the case outlined by the OP a woman can have an abortion if there is a real but non immediate threat to her life.

I haven't studied that now but I heard those two scenarios being outlined on the radio by a doctor and that was their opinion.

I'm afraid I'm not. The 8th amendment must still be satisfied. The POLDP act has just legislated for it - and set out the steps that need to be taken.
This is the section of the act applying:
there is a real and substantial risk of loss of the woman’s life from a physical
illness, and
in their reasonable opinion (being an opinion formed in good faith which has regard to the need to preserve unborn human life as far as practicable) that risk can only be averted by carrying out the medical procedure,
The life must be at risk substantially from the pregnancy, and an abortion must be the only way of averting the risk.
In a minority of cases, it might reasonably be assessed that due to a server preexisting condition, where the pregnancy is continued there is an overwhelming likelihood of death for the mother, that then the law is satisfied, but for most cases there would not be that certainty.
The POLDP act hasn't really changed much. It's still a very difficult area for doctors, and even more so for pregnant women.

volchitsa

Yadiel Nutritious Apartment wrote: »

The fact they are doing it and think its right does not make it right.

Its a really really sad reflection on society when the people opposing the killing of unborn babies are the ones who are expected to explain themselves.

If I said : "Its a really really sad reflection on society when the people opposing the prevention of all those new unborn babies are the ones who are expected to explain themselves" while being unable to explain myself, would that make me right?

If reasonable people genuinely believe you're wrong, and you can't explain convincingly to them why you're actually right, maybe it's time to examine your own position and see if it really is as right as you think?

And I'd suggest that anyone who in the name of "morality" finds themselves supporting a position that includes forcing a raped 10 year old child to continue a pregnancy that is harming her both mentally and physically, as in Paraguay recently, really does need to re-examine that position.

How you can expect the "rightness" of that to be self evident to the rest of society is in fact a measure of your own disconnect from reality.

Electric Sheep

Yadiel Nutritious Apartment wrote: »

We should be working very hard to discourage people going abroad for abortions also on top of keeping our laws as they are.

Enforcing high child support from the fathers would encourage more women to have the baby, knowing they would not be forcing the child into a childhood of penury.

Funny enough, the MEN who are so rabidly pro life never seem to be in favor of that.

Electric Sheep

Yadiel Nutritious Apartment wrote: »

Accidents can happen but people need to be accept that if they do they need to live with it.

You have so little respect for children that you think "oops an accident" is a valid reason to have a child? I think that every child born deserves to be wanted and planned by both parents.

We are hearing very little about the sperm donor in this conversation, aren't we?

_Whimsical_

Electric Sheep wrote: »

You have so little respect for children that you think "oops an accident" is a valid reason to have a child? I think that every child born deserves to be wanted and planned by both parents.

We are hearing very little about the sperm donor in this conversation, aren't we?

I totally agree with you about the role of men being ignored here in the reading of the child and sharing the "burden" and financial toll.
I don't think though that we could ever arrange a situation where every child is wanted by both mother and father. Surely you wouldn't countenance a woman forced to abort a child she wants because it's father does not?
Realistically that just isn't feasible.
It's all awfully sad sometimes when you think about it too much.

volchitsa

volchitsa wrote: »

If reasonable people genuinely believe you're wrong, and you can't explain convincingly to them why you're actually right, maybe it's time to examine your own position and see if it really is as right as you think?

.

My position, like many many peoples is that abortion is wrong and a baby has the right to live. I would be confident that a referendum on the topic would reflect this also. The Irish people don't want abortion on demand, just because other countries allow it is not a good reason. Hopefully in the future it will be outlawed in other countries again, its a barbaric practice.

It is people who think abortion should be like going in to have a tooth removed that need to re-examine their position.