Laws relating to kids cyclists on public roads?

Chips Lovell

CiniO wrote: »

Cycling on some roads is dangerous whether you want it or not.

I've no doubt you perceive cycling to be dangerous, but there's little evidence to support that conclusion.

Accident statistics show that is a relatively low risk activity.

Chips Lovell

RecordStraight wrote: »

A bit like decriminalising homosexuality, when nobody was being prosecuted for it anyway?

Wow.

galwaycyclist

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

I've no doubt you perceive cycling to be dangerous, but there's little evidence to support that conclusion.

Accident statistics show that is a relatively low risk activity.

The Irish accident statistics are measuring a population where few children cycle independently for transport.

RecordStraight

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

Wow.

Exactly, 'wow'. It's about changing perceptions, as you said yourself.

smacl

galwaycyclist wrote: »

The Irish accident statistics are measuring a population where few children cycle independently for transport.

That does seem to be a big difference from when I was a kid (i.e. the dark ages), where many primary school kids such as myself cycled to school and between friends houses starting from 8-10 years old. From memory, most kids made their way to school independently, by bike, bus or on foot. To my mind, the big roaming circle enjoyed by young children in the recent past is a huge loss to modern society.

ThisRegard

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Under German traffic law able roads users are required to modify their driving behaviour if they meet children, the elderly, or disabled people.

The duty is on those in charge of the threat to modify their personal behaviour in response to the vulnerable.

The sad thing is that such laws are required. The attitude of some people towards cyclists, particularly kids, who are somewhere that the person thinks they shouldn't, is scary.

I really do hope that the opinions of some people on boards.ie is not representative of Irish people in general, particularly given what I've read over the last few weeks. Even more so given I've a couple of kids just starting their bike riding.

CiniO wrote: »

I though every driver in Ireland had to do it anyway in form of driving licence.
Why cyclist kid should be different?

Well, because they're kids. You really expect a 7 year old to sit the theory test ? I don't know the stats, but I'm sure up until this year kids weren't being maimed left, right, and centre on the roads. Many of us spend pretty much all our bike riding time as kids on the roads and were quite healthy for it.

It's the growing sentiment of some motorists that they, and only they, are entitled to use the roads that is the problem.

CiniO

ThisRegard wrote: »

Well, because they're kids. You really expect a 7 year old to sit the theory test ? .

And do you really expect 7 year old to ride on public roads without knowledge of rules of the road? Where one mistake on their side can cost their life?

Answering your question - yes of course I expect a kid to know rules of the road (at least those which apply to cyclists) before they cycle in public roads so passing theory test is quite essential.

ThisRegard

Are you assuming a road is a national route, or are you including all roads ? How many kids, without the requirement to know the ROTR, have been killed so far ?

smacl

CiniO wrote: »

And do you really expect 7 year old to ride on public roads without knowledge of rules of the road? Where one mistake on their side can cost their life?

Answering your question - yes of course I expect a kid to know rules of the road (at least those which apply to cyclists) before they cycle in public roads so passing theory test is quite essential.

They're actually starting to teach cycling as part of PE in my younger (11) daughter's primary school, must ask her if there is any theory. They do teach them to look behind so check for oncoming traffic, and to signal when turning, which is all good stuff. I still go out with her when she wants to go cycling, simply because she needs a bit more experience on the road. I'd say she'll be fine after the summer to go solo.

I think in terms of letting a child out on the road by themselves, the most important thing is the number of hours they've already had on the road on a bike, and the routes they select. We're quite lucky here with a lot of on road cycle tracks and quiet estate roads.

ectoraige

RecordStraight wrote: »

Guys, help me out here - which one of us is crazy?

Is this of any help?

Dades

Coincidentally, National Bike Week (beginning on Saturday) has organised loads of family cycles.
I'm doing a this 4k one with my 6-year-old daughter (Strava to follow :P). There's going to be road closures and Garda assistance on the route, I believe.

I've cycled a small bit with her on the path and me on the road, though not at busy times. I'd never let her on a busy road, and certainly not on her own. I don't believe legislation is needed as frankly it's down to parents to ensure their child does not go near a road on a bike until they are completely competent.

Then it's down to the motorist to offer the same due care they offer to any potential situation, be it a dog or a dumbass pedestrian yapping on the phone.

Kids pile down the paths in Blackrock on bikes going to school - some on their own - some accompanied. The Garda only ever turn up when some irate houseowner can't get to work because a mom/dad parked a car across their driveway. Unless others know of small kids being picked up by police for cycling on footpaths, legislation is kinda moot, imo.

RecordStraight

Dades wrote: »

.
I don't believe legislation is needed as frankly it's down to parents to ensure their child does not go near a road on a bike until they are completely competent.

What about legislation to make it legal for your daughter to ride on the footpath?

Iwannahurl

galwaycyclist wrote: »

No but there is no specific duty to take them into account or allow for their unpredictability either. There is no specific duty to moderate speed or be ready to brake.

Irish law allows adults to blame children for being children.

Irish traffic law, and the associated attitudes to children among Irish adult drivers, is one of the reasons we ended up with the highest child pedestrian death rate in Western Europe at the end of the 1990s.

CiniO wrote: »

Thanks, that explains a good bit.

So my understanding is than with my last question, 5 year old can actually cycle in traffic. Obviously it would be crazy to let such child do it unsupervised, but strange there is not any law about it.

F.e. in Poland where I'm originally from, laws are way more clear.
Children up to 10 years of age, can not cycle on public roads at all. They can only use footpath and must be supervised by adult - in this particular case adult can cycle on footpath as well.
Children above 10 years of age, can cycle on public roads (supervised or not supervised) but only provided they obtained a "bicycle card" which is kind of driving licence for bicycles for anyone under 18 years of age. To obtain it, they have to go through training, and pass a test from knowledge of rules of the road.

I'm very surprised that no such laws (or similar) exist in Ireland.

galwaycyclist wrote: »

The Irish accident statistics are measuring a population where few children cycle independently for transport.

Those laws do not appear to have resulted in a good road safety record in Poland, however.

In Ireland the number of children cycling has plummeted over the last few decades. AFAIK (open to correction) this has resulted in a reduction in the absolute number of child cyclist fatalities. The RSA regards this as a success, since they have no role in the promotion of cycling. It is of no relevance to them whether children or their parents stop cycling, whether due to road safety concerns or any other reason.

Incidentally, the RSA believes that children as young as 12 are responsible for their own safety on the roads.

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

Nah, if we're genuine about promoting cycling we need to move away from this hysteria about safety.

At the moment, the message is one of constant negativity. Cycling is so dangerous kids shouldn't be on the road. It's so dangerous you need to wear a helmet at all times. It's so dangerous you need to segregate cyclists from other traffic.

And then we wonder why more people don't cycle...

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

But the law isn't enforced. It's a non-issue. It's not like the Guards are going around issuing summons to the parents of toddlers. Changing that law is just finding a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

Hysteria is not a good basis for anything. However, I cycle with kids every day, and I can tell you that I have very real concerns, which are not at all hysterical. Neither the Local Authority nor AGS nor the RSA are of any practical help.

CramCycle

galwaycyclist wrote: »

No but there is no specific duty to take them into account or allow for their unpredictability either. There is no specific duty to moderate speed or be ready to brake.

I would argue that there is a duty to use "due care and consideration", most likely through moderation of speed, preparing to stop and potentially changing the path of the vehicle.


As for the getting kids to take a test for this, I still am a strong advocate of road safety education no matter how a child uses the road, the idiocy of suggesting that we need to test a child before they can go out in Public is crazy. We don't expect kids to pass a test before they walk to school, and not everywhere has a footpath, so walking on the road, with traffic. I walked with my baby sister to school from the age of 8 on country roads, she was 5. It's not rocket science. I cycled some of the time as well, to friends houses, to football training etc..

Training: we were told by my parents to stay on the right hand side while walking. Sin e. That was it. Shockingly as children we were able to adapt that when a car was going to fast or you could hear a vehicle on the other side of a bend or crest of a hill, you stood into the ditch. The only change nowadays is that you would need some older kids to put their phones away but you could say the same for many adults as well.

The national school beside my house in Dublin has kids walking and cycling to it on their own, not many but I imagine more than the average. About 50:50 in terms if those on the path and those on the road. Despite the horrendous driving by parents who drop their kids off, they all seem to have an appreciation for the potential stupidity of others, and have better road skills than many drivers and adult cyclists. The only rule I see broken regularly is that they cross the road at the lights when near the school sometimes but alot of them wait for the lollipop man to block traffic (he usually has to wait for two cars to go through his stop sign first though).

Cookie_Monster

CiniO wrote: »

Answering your question - yes of course I expect a kid to know rules of the road (at least those which apply to cyclists) before they cycle in public roads so passing theory test is quite essential.

that's your job as a parent though, trying to abdicate it to some authority or other is simply shirking your role as a parent.

ThisRegard

CramCycle wrote: »

Training: we were told by my parents to stay on the right hand side while walking. Sin e. That was it. Shockingly as children we were able to adapt that when a car was going to fast or you could hear a vehicle on the other side of a bend or crest of a hill, you stood into the ditch. The only change nowadays is that you would need some older kids to put their phones away but you could say the same for many adults as well.

Same here, but I do wonder if this is taught any more. There's a road nearby which is a throw back to the old county roads around here, no paths, and a series of right angle bends surrounded by hedges. I drive it daily and without fail everyone I meet, more often than not the same adults in their late 20s/early 30s, walking to and from work, walk with the traffic.

Iwannahurl

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

that's your job as a parent though, trying to abdicate it to some authority or other is simply shirking your role as a parent.

It's a shared responsibility, in which the State also has a crucial role. Putting all the onus on individuals is a failed approach.

Since 2009 national policy has been to provide mandatory cycle training for children in schools, as part of the formal curriculum.

It's only now being piloted: http://www.dttas.ie/press-releases/2015/minister-donohoe-gets-national-bike-week-gear

Dades

RecordStraight wrote: »

What about legislation to make it legal for your daughter to ride on the footpath?

Given the current law as applied to kids is neither (a) enforced or (b) a human rights issue, I can live without new legislation.

Iwannahurl

Shur it'll do, isn't it grand?

flatface

Dades wrote: »

Given the current law as applied to kids is neither (a) enforced or (b) a human rights issue, I can live without new legislation.

I can live without it, but I think our society would only benefit from it. We have enough crap legislation so this seems like a no-brainer.

I cycle daily a nice short route with my 3 and 5 year old to their school. There is no way the kids could be on the road and I cycle behind them on the footpath.

I get that there is no enforcement but there really should be a law change to make allowances for those that bother to encourage youngsters to cycle. Legislation change may make the option appear on parents radars, i'm sure the fact that its illegal contributes to the idea that we have to transport our kids by car.

RecordStraight

Dades wrote: »

Given the current law as applied to kids is neither (a) enforced or (b) a human rights issue, I can live without new legislation.

It's not enforced (as far as I can tell - maybe it is selectively?) but it's ammunition for the militant anti-cycling crowd. "Blah blah illegal cyclists blah blah children killing grannies illegally blah" and so forth. In other European countries, as I've said, it's legal to cycle on paths until you are 12. Countries with a healthy attitude to cycling.

I can't understand the reluctance to revise a retrograde and potentially dangerous law, especially with gomers like the guy on the other thread who says he forces children into traffic.

Iwannahurl

Copenhagen (note the speed limit in last photo, btw):

smacl

Helmet sales in Copenhagen seem to be up :P

ford2600

flatface wrote: »

I can live without it, but I think our society would only benefit from it. We have enough crap legislation so this seems like a no-brainer.

I cycle daily a nice short route with my 3 and 5 year old to their school. There is no way the kids could be on the road and I cycle behind them on the footpath.

I can understand why the footpath, being traffic free, is probably safer but how do you, when cycling behind, watch out for your children at entrances/vehicular crossings?

A child on a bike is going to be lower than most/all boundary walls and at least some cars are going to partially emerge onto footpath before they can see what is on path.

It's not a criticism btw, it's a genuine question

mvt

RecordStraight wrote: »

A bit like decriminalising homosexuality, when nobody was being prosecuted for it anyway?

Being a homosexual was never illegal.

Homosexual sex between two males even if it was consensual was.

But lets not let the facts get in the way of a snide comment.

RecordStraight

mvt wrote: »

Being a homosexual was never illegal.

Homosexual sex between two males even if it was consensual was.

But lets not let the facts get in the way of a snide comment.

Huh?

You are not deliberately misunderstanding a point to make a snide comment, are you?

ThisRegard

In all fairness, it's a pretty spectacular off topic subject, going from kids cycling bikes, to grown men doing riding of another sort.

Daroxtar

Lea Whining Spectacle wrote: »

I would much prefer if we mirrored the laws in Germany regarding young cyclists. I am not a fan of children cycling on the road.

Ah ya, sure let's all do what the Germans do. I mean what's the worst thing a German ever did to anyone?

CramCycle

ThisRegard wrote: »

In all fairness, it's a pretty spectacular off topic subject, going from kids cycling bikes, to grown men doing riding of another sort.

MOD VOICE: It is indeed, lets drop it at that, the two are in no way related. Any questions can be sent to me via PM

Daroxtar wrote: »

Ah ya, sure let's all do what the Germans do. I mean what's the worst thing a German ever did to anyone?

MOD VOICE: There is a reasonably sensible discussion to be had here, let's not all go crazy with the jumps in related or unrelated topics.

Seweryn

Daroxtar wrote: »

Ah ya, sure let's all do what the Germans do.

Agree. They have all systems including rules of the road, extremely well thought out. We should at least consult with them and adapt to our local reality. Yeah, that may not be easy, but we should start somewhere.

The Polish system of cycle training when you are young is also good. It makes you more aware when you grow up.

Pinch Flat

This issue came up on another thread. I set my stall out then as I do now.

I'm a regular cyclist who as an adult has no need to use the footpath when cycling - I cycle with confidence and defensively and use the infrastructure available to me for commuting or leisure spins. I'm 100% comfortable with that.

Where my attitude changes is when cycling with my 8 year old son. Some of our trips involve roads that have no cycle lanes and are busy, narrow roads on which cars will happily speed - they'll ignore the single continuous white line to overtake and pass very close at speed. I've had a few close calls as an adult and wouldn't expose my son to these scenarios.

So he'll happily cycle along the path, me on the path beside him - there are scenarios where I'll follow him but they're rare enough. To be honest so many people drive around our area that the paths are virtually empty of pedestrians anyway.

I'm slowly introducing him to cycling on the road with me, getting him use to cycling 2 abreast with me on the outside. He's turning into a confident little cyclist and I would be happy for him in few years to progress to bigger roads unaccompanied.

One thing to remember is that although it is technically illegal, the guards have discretion and sometimes exercise common sense - in the 7 or 8 years I've being doing this, we've had zero issues either with pedestrians, who he will treat with respect and give them right of way when he comes across them, to Gardai who have to date ignored this.

Pinch Flat

Btw I like that Polish system mentioned earlier. It could be tied in with mandatory cycling training in schools from primary to secondary school and culminate in a certificate of competence

Fian

In my opinion - cycling on the footpath is generally more dangerous than cycling on the road. Mainly because the footpaths tend to run along the entrances to driveways and cars can pull out of them with no visibility of children travelling along on their bikes below the height of hedges/garden walls etc.

When I cycle my children to school they travel on the road, I cycle behind and to the right of them so that cars can't squeeze past them without pulling out wide away from them. I also train them so that they have some road sense before they go off on their own - I am following behind so I can give a running commentary on things like pulling out of the "door zone", rights of way, etc.

I would not allow them to cycle through the city centre, at least not the younger ones. But I would certainly not agree with any suggestion that they should be prohibited from cycling on roads, that would be counterproductive and would do more harm then good.

These things are best dealt with on the basis of an assessment of the specific road involved, not a general rule banning kids from cycling on the roads at all. There are no footpaths in most of rural Ireland.

Carawaystick

CiniO wrote: »

Are you serious?
You really think that permission of the state which consists of having person trained for rules of the road and ask them to take a test of that knowledge before they are entitled to use public roads where all those rules apply is a daft communist idea?

I though every driver in Ireland had to do it anyway in form of driving licence.
Why cyclist kid should be different?

Because they are cyclists. And because they would be well capable of cycling on some roads long before they are ten.
People can walk on roads without permission, or doing any test.
Where would these tests take place? how would children get to them? How would you identify the child? How much extra tax would you pay to run such a system? Or would you force children or their families to pay and prevent poor people cycling?

It might surprise you to know that many people got drivers licenses without taking a test here.

Very few people are injured or killed by children cycling ( or adults cycling for that matter). Lots of people are injured by motorists poor driving.

seamus

RecordStraight wrote: »

Indeed - but seeing as it is illegal to cycle on footpaths, then they are obliged to cycle on the roads.

I saw a rather bizarre scenario yesterday on the Rathgar Road inbound where a man was cycling on the footpath while his daughter, aged no more than 5, was cycling along the edge of the bus lane beside him. In morning traffic.

Now, I'm all one for getting them on the bike early, but that seemed pretty damn mental to me. At the very least he should be on her right, on the road.

Chips Lovell

I'll see you your child in the bus lane and raise you man cycling on footpath, dog on string running on road against traffic.

ardmacha

Pinch Flat wrote: »

So he'll happily cycle along the path, me on the path beside him - there are scenarios where I'll follow him but they're rare enough. To be honest so many people drive around our area that the paths are virtually empty of pedestrians anyway.

I'm slowly introducing him to cycling on the road with me, getting him use to cycling 2 abreast with me on the outside. He's turning into a confident little cyclist and I would be happy for him in few years to progress to bigger roads unaccompanied.

You are slowly introducing him to the concept that it is OK to break the law whenever it suits you, it is parenting like this that has the country the way it is.

Pinch Flat

ardmacha wrote: »

You are slowly introducing him to the concept that it is OK to break the law whenever it suits you, it is parenting like this that has the country the way it is.

yeah it's interesting. One recent after hours thread, some posters suggested the social services and Gardai (Imagine? :rolleyes:) should be called for allowing children to cycle on roads, even in estates - one poster suggesting I am allowing other people parent my child. WTF? Another cohort felt that children on footpaths should be forced onto the road or, again, (you guessed it) social services called (although, interestingly not the Gardai in this instance).

You just can't win with people. As for my style of parenting, Id argue parents that feed their children processed foods, sit them in front of the TV / games console for hours on end and drive them the 500 meters to school have more to answer for.

Chips Lovell

I don't know about you, but I think most parents can live with the guilt.

Pinch Flat

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

I don't know about you, but I think most parents can live with the guilt.

Guilty your honour of removing the shackles of a car from my son. Oh the horror.:eek:

blobbie

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

I'll see you your child in the bus lane and raise you man cycling on footpath, dog on string running on road against traffic.

I'll see that with man walking in cycle path and dog walking on grass verge of path. Walking "with" traffic flow.

smacl

ardmacha wrote: »

You are slowly introducing him to the concept that it is OK to break the law whenever it suits you, it is parenting like this that has the country the way it is.

That's why Ireland is so much better than Germany, Switzerland or Denmark. We realise that laws are really just guidelines not to be taken too seriously, that can be bent a fair bit before they break

learn

smacl wrote: »

That's why Ireland is so much better than Germany, Switzerland or Denmark. We realise that laws are really just guidelines not to be taken too seriously, that can be bent a fair bit before they break

There would be less complaints of bikes using footpaths if cyclists gave adequate warning (bell) before they attempt to overtake the walkers.

Fian

learn wrote: »

There would be less complaints of bikes using footpaths if cyclists gave adequate warning (bell) before they attempt to overtake the walkers.

No-one is arguing that it is ok for cyclists to use the footpath, certainly not adults breezing past pedestrians without warning.

Iwannahurl

ford2600 wrote: »

I can understand why the footpath, being traffic free, is probably safer but how do you, when cycling behind, watch out for your children at entrances/vehicular crossings?

A child on a bike is going to be lower than most/all boundary walls and at least some cars are going to partially emerge onto footpath before they can see what is on path.

It's not a criticism btw, it's a genuine question

Footpaths seem safer for kids in between junctions.

Unfortunately the collision risk at junctions, driveways etc is substantially greater, especially when cycling against the normal flow of traffic. There's also the problem of right of way in such situations.

That also why so many Irish cycling "facilities" are worse than having no facilities at all.

mvt wrote: »

Being a homosexual was never illegal.

Homosexual sex between two males even if it was consensual was.

But lets not let the facts get in the way of a snide comment.

Ireland is a great place for cycling. Just leave your bike at home...

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Daroxtar wrote: »

Ah ya, sure let's all do what the Germans do. I mean what's the worst thing a German ever did to anyone?

flatface

ford2600 wrote: »

I can understand why the footpath, being traffic free, is probably safer but how do you, when cycling behind, watch out for your children at entrances/vehicular crossings?

A child on a bike is going to be lower than most/all boundary walls and at least some cars are going to partially emerge onto footpath before they can see what is on path.

It's not a criticism btw, it's a genuine question

Sorry late back to this thread. To answer your question the footpaths on my route are good and wide. The kids know to stop at all the crossings but I agree with other posters that there is a risk of cars moving, or worse reversing, out of gateways/entrances onto the path.

The roads are kinda narrow and lined with parked cars so there is an equal risk from doors, peds and cars. Since the 3 year old is particularly wobbly it should be my call as to where and how I feel they are able to cycle. The path is already used by kids walking and on scooters with the same risks.

Legally allowing kids (and accompanied adults) on the path if they choose seems sensible, healthy and a good news story

ROK ON

Just an observation.
I often head out cycling on public roads with my eldest kid(aged 10).
She has been heading out on the road for almost three years now.

She is careful in the bike and not 'afraid' of cars the way many new cyclists are. She has the hang of breaking, descending, taking a corner. One thing she hasn't got despite all the time we spend in a bike is holding a line. She veers all over the road. I was out a few weeks ago with her and a friend of hers. The friend is a bit more experienced on the bike. She veers all over the place.
Now I know that adults do this - but it's not predictable. I have explained to her why it is better to hold your road position. In one ear...
I have no issue with kids cycling on roads when supervised. When I was her age I cycled to school - her mother won't allow her to cycle. Given her ability to veer I would insist that if she cycled it is on the footpath until she gets to the cycle path.

I think it is fine and well asserting your rights to road space. Reality is many drivers couldn't give a sh1te and others simply don't realise how off puting it can be to pass closely at speed - particularly at pinch points.

I mainly do not use cycle paths- but there are some areas where I am glad of the (N4-over M50). Why, they are simply less stressful.

I no longer know what this thread is about. But yes to kids cycling and if their parents decide that should be on the footpath until they have more road craft then that's no bad thing either.

Sheldons Brain

Pinch Flat wrote: »

yeah it's interesting. One recent after hours thread, some posters suggested the social services and Gardai (Imagine? :rolleyes:) should be called for allowing children to cycle on roads, even in estates - one poster suggesting I am allowing other people parent my child. WTF? Another cohort felt that children on footpaths should be forced onto the road or, again, (you guessed it) social services called (although, interestingly not the Gardai in this instance).

Clearly the Gardai should do their job if they encounter criminals.
And as I said above there is no obligation on anyone to cycle anywhere, if they wish to traverse the footpath they can walk.

You just can't win with people. As for my style of parenting, Id argue parents that feed their children processed foods, sit them in front of the TV / games console for hours on end and drive them the 500 meters to school have more to answer for.

Whataboutery. This is no justification at all, every crime can be justified by reference to mass murder or some other worse crime.
If I said posted something like, "I park on the cycle lane, there aren't many cyclists anyway and there are worse things people do, like speeding", I wouldn't get some many thanks.

wrote:

Jep Gambardella] I don't know about you, but I think most parents can live with the guilt.

No doubt all criminal parents can live the the guilt, otherwise they would stop.

Daroxtar

Lea Whining Spectacle wrote: »

Ya, sorry. I'd been over on another forum reading the anti cycling thread and forgot to turn off my Retard mode when I came back here