Is the leaving cert harder, easier or the same as it was 20 years ago?

maude6868

When I started teaching 22 years ago I taught Geibheann to First Years, after a few years I taught it to Junior Cert Ordinary Level, now I teach it to Higher Level Leaving Cert. It's a far cry from 'Saoirse' and 'Daoirse. The same can be said of English. Milton's 'Paradise Lost' was far more challenging than 'Killing the Pig' for instance. In my opinion todays Leaving Certs would not be able to handle the old Inter Cert in languages. When I did my Leaving in 1985 if a student got an A it would be the talk of the parish. However I believe the Leaving Certs now have far more pressure on them from teachers, parents, the grind schools and themselves. The emergence of grinds really contributes to that pressure because the student who doesn't get grinds feels at a disadvantage. Grinds add so much more pressure because after a day at school and then a few hours study many students head to grinds. I believe the papers were harder years ago but students studied less and natural ability shone through which is as it should be.

chanelfreak

spurious wrote: »

That reminds me - calculators. We never had/used them.

THIS! I definitely did not have a calculator in the exams, that is going back about 16/17-ish years I guess? And the HL Maths papers I saw last year were almost easier than the OL Maths papers I did in my LC. I mean the year I did my LC, I literally could not make head nor tail of the HL Maths paper at all.

However, I still think that the LC is the most stressful exam that the majority of us will ever do in our lives in terms of the sheer breadth of subjects involved. I still have nightmares every so often about sitting it! :eek:

Kremin

spurious wrote: »

That reminds me - calculators. We never had/used them.

It's kind of funny how for granted we take such a simple thing as calculators.
My teacher tried using one from years and years ago to do a financial maths question and the thing took a good 60 seconds just to do (1+i)^120

DarraghF197

I'd prefer if we didn't have calculators for Maths and Applied Maths. I know it's not really the way forward, but I'd find it more of a challenge and it would get rid of the people who just chunk a massive line into their calculators.

I don't think it would be better without them, just more interesting! Still think we need one for Accounting though

sunbeam

spurious wrote: »

I must root out an old Group Cert. paper I have somewhere (usually taken by kids in vocational schools after 2nd year) and scan it - fer de lulz.

I haven't seen it in a while but I remember the print as being tiny compared to today's.

I will have a rummage.

Just looked at one of the Junior Cert Ordinary Level sample maths papers on the net and most of it looks way easier than what we did for the Group Cert back in the 80s.

As one of my college lecturers told me back in his day (the 70s) an A in a higher leaving cert subject was 'an event'. To a certain extent it still was back in 1990 when I sat mine.

I think the availability of the marking schemes helps a lot. Back in my day some teachers seemed to have very strange ideas about what was actually required in the exams.

Luke Armstrong

DarraghF197 wrote: »

I'd prefer if we didn't have calculators for Maths and Applied Maths. I know it's not really the way forward, but I'd find it more of a challenge and it would get rid of the people who just chunk a massive line into their calculators.

I don't think it would be better without them, just more interesting! Still think we need one for Accounting though

So how are we supposed to calculate Cos47?
I don't think it would make it that much harder for algebra and co-ordinate geometry would just take so much longer

peckerhead

More importantly, what would we do without 5318008?

DarraghF197

Luke Armstrong wrote: »

So how are we supposed to calculate Cos47?
I don't think it would make it that much harder for algebra and co-ordinate geometry would just take so much longer

Just have angles that would be able to find in the tables. As I said, it wouldn't be better, but if they were able to bring it in, I would welcome it.

Kremin

DarraghF197 wrote: »

Just have angles that would be able to find in the tables. As I said, it wouldn't be better, but if they were able to bring it in, I would welcome it.

I don't see the point though, in any real life scenario today you can have a calculator in seconds from a phone or on the internet, no point taking them away now.
Some of the course kind of relies on them too, like statistics, good luck getting the correlation coefficient without a calculator !

DarraghF197

Kremin wrote: »

I don't see the point though, in any real life scenario today you can have a calculator in seconds from a phone or on the internet, no point taking them away now.
Some of the course kind of relies on them too, like statistics, good luck getting the correlation coefficient without a calculator !

Yeah I was thinking about that correlation co-efficient! Still, I'll say it again haha, I'd prefer if we weren't able to use calculators but it would make more sense if we did use calculators :P

Peregrine

I don't think calculators should be taken away but I think students rely on them too much. A lot of students can't spot a major discrepancy between the calculator's answer and the expected value and some even forget basic skills.

Luke Armstrong wrote: »

So how are we supposed to calculate Cos47?
I don't think it would make it that much harder for algebra and co-ordinate geometry would just take so much longer

Back in the olden days, those books were called log tables for a reason


..or so I'm told.

IrishLoriii

As someone with only one exam left I honestly think that the Leaving Cert was harder years ago..take for instance even all of the websites with grammar, help and tutorials that no one had years ago. The reading comps and listenings were definitely harder years ago but as well as all of the obvious there was a much bigger emphasis on the leaving cert being the be all and end all then there is now a days

randylonghorn

Luke Armstrong wrote: »

So how are we supposed to calculate Cos47?

Log tables, as Nim said.

Nim wrote: »

I don't think calculators should be taken away but I think students rely on them too much. A lot of students can't spot a major discrepancy between the calculator's answer and the expected value and some even forget basic skills.

This.

It's got to the point IRL where most take the till reading as correct regardless, even if they have entered the thing wrongly.

I've had to fight for my correct change a couple of times, and had one time when someone was determined to give me change of a €20 when I had tendered €10 ... even handed me my own €10 back and went rooting for the additional change!! I was damn tempted to take it actually; I'm way too honest!

Jijsaw

I was looking at some French papers from the mid-'80's about a week back, the comprehensions were definitely harder but the questions were easier, if that makes sense. So it was more difficult to understand every line in the question but spotting the bits of text that gave you the answer was easier.

galwayjohn89

Jamies15 wrote: »

^Probably extremley biased, but I'm not having a soul telling me that the economics, business and accounting exams I am currently cramming for are too easy!!

Did the leaving cert 4 years ago so may be out of date but the economics and business exams were a joke. Very little in depth knowledge needed at all.

peckerhead

randylonghorn wrote: »

It's got to the point IRL where most take the till reading as correct regardless, even if they have entered the thing wrongly.

The till in our local Spar was being used by a manager the other day and the poor young fella behind the counter took almost 2 minutes — with pen and paper — to figure out my change from a fiver for a single item costing €1.79. :eek:

Project Maths me @rse.

DarraghF197

Maybe just get rid of the plus, minus, multiplication and division buttons :P

Troxck

With regards to calculators, I agree. I became way too dependent on it. Our Maths teacher was great in terms to this, he really improved our mental arithmetic. He'd make you stand/embarrass you if if saw or heard you using a calculator for simple calculations. May have not be the best approach, but it worked!

Kremin

peckerhead wrote: »

The till in our local Spar was being used by a manager the other day and the poor young fella behind the counter took almost 2 minutes — with pen and paper — to figure out my change from a fiver for a single item costing €1.79. :eek:

Project Maths me @rse.

When I was working last year they wanted us to put in the exact amount they give us- in case they need to search for a transaction or the person comes back saying they were overcharged etc.
I usually just pressed enter and counted it myself but they told me to start doing it by the till towards the end to avoid any problems :l

randylonghorn

Kremin wrote: »

When I was working last year they wanted us to put in the exact amount they give us- in case they need to search for a transaction or the person comes back saying they were overcharged etc.

That makes perfect sense, Kremin, the issue is more when people mis-enter, and can't even see that there must be something odd with the answer they get. :pac:

irishlad12345

i think the extra 25 points has given naturally gifted maths students an advantage in the points race and is also inflating CAO points which make it harder for students like me to reach definitely not a problem even 10 years ago :P

DarraghF197

irishlad12345 wrote: »

i think the extra 25 points has given naturally gifted maths students an advantage in the points race and is also inflating CAO points which make it harder for students like me to reach definitely not a problem even 10 years ago :P

The negatives of the extra 25 points far outweigh the positives in my opinion. Doesn't help the system at all.

Not a NSA agent

I would expect for the points to increase over time anyway. The whole point is to spend two years teaching you certain topics and then test your knowledge on said topics, not to see who can come up with the most questions students probably wont be able to answer. As time goes on it becomes apparent that certain questions tend to be skipped or poorly answered which means this should be addressed. The past 10ish years has seen the rise of the internet where you can find a topic covered from a different perspective. I know from college that sometimes I wouldnt get something the lecturer explained but found a youtube video on the topic and understood it.

Is it easier or harder? Maybe, but it is quite complex to give some measurement of difficulty to compare it.

Carlos Orange

Wouldn't really agree with any extra points scheme but I don't find extra points for maths nearly as egregious as the extra 10% for doing the exam in Irish.

Aineoil

spurious wrote: »

We never saw a marking scheme in 1980. An A grade in anything was really quite unusual. We did not learn off 'sample' answers. We went in on the day and made our own one up.

I have to agree with you. I sat my LC in 1984. There were no sample answers

unless you wrote one yourself. My secondary school teachers were excellent and

they would mark an answer for you, if you took it upon yourself to write one.

There wasn't much hype about the exam as there is today, you just got on with it.

An A grade, as you say, was as rare as hens' teeth. I remember a girl who got an

A in English - I thought she was immortal.:D

My son will be sitting his LC in 2016 and I am more nervous about him sitting

the LC than I was myself sitting the exam.

psinno wrote: »

Wouldn't really agree with any extra points scheme but I don't find extra points for maths nearly as egregious as the extra 10% for doing the exam in Irish.

Why?

Carlos Orange

Aineoil wrote: »

Why?

The Irish bonus is described as a result bonus (it directly impacts the exam result not the points calculation) so the grade received is no longer reflective of the quality of the work produced. It is also potentially a much larger bonus since it can amount to 10 points per subject.

qweerty

psinno wrote: »

The Irish bonus is described as a result bonus (it directly impacts the exam result not the points calculation) so the grade received is no longer reflective of the quality of the work produced. It is also potentially a much larger bonus since it can amount to 10 points per subject.

Afaik, it's 10% of what you don't get. Which means that the most you can increase is by only one sub-grade.

My opinion is that some reward is perhaps justifiable, because it unquestionably makes it more challenging. But that it is unfair to advantage one cohort (ie those fluent in Irish) above others.

Edit: just checked, in most subjects, it's actually 10% of a students score up to 75% (from where it decreases). Basically either one or two sub-grades. That's probably too much.

MmmPancakes

qweerty wrote: »

Afaik, it's 10% of what you don't get. Which means that the most you can increase is by only one sub-grade.

My opinion is that some reward is perhaps justifiable, because it unquestionably makes it more challenging. But that it is unfair to advantage one cohort (ie those fluent in Irish) above others.

Why would someone not fluent take an exam through Irish though? I bet 95% of people who sit their exams in Irish go to a Gaelscoil, and are fluent.

qweerty

MmmPancakes wrote: »

Why would someone not fluent take an exam through Irish though? I bet 95% of people who sit their exams in Irish go to a Gaelscoil, and are fluent.

I don't understand. My point is that most aren't in a position to do so.