Cars to be banned from key Dublin City Centre streets; priority to walking, buses etc

cgcsb

Definitely some welcome developments there. Still disappointed about the lack of action on South William Street, the south end of the street has parking on both sides and a wide traffic lane, pedestrians must crab walk sideways up the street and avoid wing mirrors.

cgcsb

pclive wrote: »

Outbound buses will head north on O'Connell Bridge - Eden Quay - Rosie Hacket Bridge - Burgh Quay - Aston Quay

:eek::eek: holly moley between that and the bus banishment to benburb street, there'll be a dreadfully lengthend commute for some.

cgcsb

While I agree with banning taxis at college green, I don't agree with the ban being 24 hours. In reality there is no bus service after 23:30 and no political will to bring one in, probably because it'd destroy the taxi industry's peak hour currently propped up on a friday and saturday night with artificially high nitelink fares. So what we're left with is road space that, from 23:30 until 05:30 is not used by anyone at all.

LXFlyer

cgcsb wrote: »

While I agree with banning taxis at college green, I don't agree with the ban being 24 hours. In reality there is no bus service after 23:30 and no political will to bring one in, probably because it'd destroy the taxi industry's peak hour currently propped up on a friday and saturday night with artificially high nitelink fares. So what we're left with is road space that, from 23:30 until 05:30 is not used by anyone at all.

I wouldn't bet on that.

Strong rumours that this may finally change.

LXFlyer

cgcsb wrote: »

:eek::eek: holly moley between that and the bus banishment to benburb street, there'll be a dreadfully lengthend commute for some.

That loop won't happen - buses will probably use Tara St and Burgh Quay.

cgcsb

TallGlass wrote: »

I think DCC have lost there minds if they think banning cars from Bachelor's Walk is a good idea, that is going to cause chaos. Sure look what happens when there are sit down processes at the O Connel bridge intersection. Won't matter to me I just avoid town like plague.

Why would motorists queue to get through an area they know in advance they can't get through? completely different to encountering a protest you didn't know about before hand.

schemingbohemia

cgcsb wrote: »

:eek::eek: holly moley between that and the bus banishment to benburb street, there'll be a dreadfully lengthend commute for some.

But you can't just see the additions/loops without looking at the areas where buses will speed up due to fewer cars blocking them?

cgcsb

TallGlass wrote: »

Obviously there is, but diverting all that traffic is just going to cause more traffic around the surrounding areas. Its not solving a problem. As a matter of interest do you drive? Have you ever drove around the places there mentioning banning cars?

They need to come up with a proper solution to the traffic situation in Dublin at the moment its getting out of control. Banning cars isn't going to fix this problem.

International experience has shown that banning cars does indeed eliminate traffic congestion by definition.

MJohnston

I'd be interested to know whether some of the Quays private car bans will be 24 hours as well. I'd never dream of going near them in a car during rush hour (I commute via bicycle or on foot), but would often drive those routes late on weekends, or well away from peak times.

cgcsb

galljga1 wrote: »

I have skimmed through the posts so far so forgive me if this has been covered.
Is there anywhere that mentions projections covering the number of cars that will be removed from the road network vs increased public transport supply? Any increase in park and ride facilities for those living in more rural outlying areas?

Indeed what are you supposed to do when every bus is full, your area, like most of Dublin, has no rail provision at all and a long distance cycle would likely cause death or injury.

hardCopy

cgcsb wrote: »

Indeed what are you supposed to do when every bus is full, your area, like most of Dublin, has no rail provision at all and a long distance cycle would likely cause death or injury.

In what area would a cycle "likely cause death or injury"?

cgcsb

lxflyer wrote: »

I wouldn't bet on that.

Strong rumours that this may finally change.

I would hope so too, but I'll believe it when I see it. Also keeping taxis out of College Green will be a challenge. Most taxis currently use contra flow bus lanes despite not being permitted to do so.

schemingbohemia

cgcsb wrote: »

Indeed what are you supposed to do when every bus is full, your area, like most of Dublin, has no rail provision at all and a long distance cycle would likely cause death or injury.

Are you high?

cgcsb

hardCopy wrote: »

In what area would a cycle "likely cause death or injury"?

Obviously I'm exaggerating. But you must admit cycling in Dublin is quite the challenge. Overall the provision of cycle lanes is poor and they're generally used as parking/loading areas anyway.

mcsean2163

cgcsb wrote: »

Obviously I'm exaggerating. But you must admit cycling in Dublin is quite the challenge. Overall the provision of cycle lanes is poor and they're generally used as parking/loading areas anyway.

Agree

loyatemu

cgcsb wrote: »

Obviously I'm exaggerating. But you must admit cycling in Dublin is quite the challenge. Overall the provision of cycle lanes is poor and they're generally used as parking/loading areas anyway.

and yet thousands cycle around the city every day without coming to any harm.

(I'm not denying it's statistically more dangerous than driving, but from your description cycling in Dublin is an extreme sport akin to free-climbing or wingsuit flying).

LXFlyer

cgcsb wrote: »

Indeed what are you supposed to do when every bus is full, your area, like most of Dublin, has no rail provision at all and a long distance cycle would likely cause death or injury.

Well as the bus fleet continues to expand and additional services added, hopefully that won't be so much of an issue.

bk

lxflyer wrote: »

Well as the bus fleet continues to expand and additional services added, hopefully that won't be so much of an issue.

Also remember if the buses suffer from less congestion, then their journey times drop, which means the same bus can be turned around and used again quicker, thus improving frequency and capacity, with no extra drivers or buses needed.

Hopefully there will also be greater use of the double doors and move to flat fare + cashless buses which all should reduce dwell times and thus also increase the number of journeys made by each bus, thus increasing capacity with no new buses required.

LXFlyer

bk wrote: »

Also remember if the buses suffer from less congestion, then their journey times drop, which means the same bus can be turned around and used again quicker, thus improving frequency and capacity, with no extra drivers or buses needed.

Hopefully there will also be greater use of the double doors and move to flat fare + cashless buses which all should reduce dwell times and thus also increase the number of journeys made by each bus, thus increasing capacity with no new buses required.

To be fair that tends to have an impact as the day progresses.

To increase morning peak frequency generally requires an increase in the PVR (peak vehicle requirement), usually through 12 hour spread-over duties that see the buses out in the am and pm peaks.

cdebru

lxflyer wrote: »

I wouldn't bet on that.

Strong rumours that this may finally change.

More than a rumour I believe starting with a couple of core cross city routes going to 24 hour operation, the NTA want it, and what they want usually happens.

cdebru

bk wrote: »

Also remember if the buses suffer from less congestion, then their journey times drop, which means the same bus can be turned around and used again quicker, thus improving frequency and capacity, with no extra drivers or buses needed.

Hopefully there will also be greater use of the double doors and move to flat fare + cashless buses which all should reduce dwell times and thus also increase the number of journeys made by each bus, thus increasing capacity with no new buses required.

Extra journeys only really kick in later in the day after rush hour, you would still need to increase the PVR

cdebru

I wonder could a fly under be built at the bachelor's walk O'Connell bridge junction, starting around swifts row and reemerging past the Rosie Hackett somewhere, leaving the surface road for Public transport ?

cgcsb

loyatemu wrote: »

and yet thousands cycle around the city every day without coming to any harm.

(I'm not denying it's statistically more dangerous than driving, but from your description cycling in Dublin is an extreme sport akin to free-climbing or wingsuit flying).

Again it was a tongue and cheek comment. I say it because I know pleanty of people who probably arent that able on a bike who just wouldn't cycle because of the perceived danger. Although there aren't many accidents the site of a double decker cutting in and out of cycle lanes would put the fear up one. And then you have tax drivers trying to kill you into the bargain.

ThisRegard

loyatemu wrote: »

(I'm not denying it's statistically more dangerous than driving,

Is it?

cgcsb

cdebru wrote: »

I wonder could a fly under be built at the bachelor's walk O'Connell bridge junction, starting around swifts row and reemerging past the Rosie Hackett somewhere, leaving the surface road for Public transport ?

as long as we're still scraping a few quid together for DART underground, I doubt it.

Aard

Not to drag things off topic, but it is statistically safer to cycle than to drive. A UK study showed driving as 11 times more dangerous than cycling in terms of deaths. Interested in Irish numbers showing cycling as more dangerous if anybody knows of any studies.

MJohnston

Imo cycling in Dublin doesn't feel that dangerous if you're aware, attentive, and keep yourself visible. Unfortunately not true for a large number of my fellow cyclists, I suspect.

_Kaiser_

PLL wrote: »

The 'After' photos make it look so much more like a modern European city.

Feck but I hate this reasoning whenever changes are proposed - let's do it because other places do it and aren't we big boys and girls and the equal of any other place?

This proposal is ridiculous without addressing the means by which people get to the City Centre in the first place which is still significantly by car and why they go there. Do people think such people want to spend a fortune on parking every or stuck in traffic every morning/evening? No, but they do so because they have no other realistic alternative to get to and from work - something that is going to get worse again as people are pushed out into the surrounding counties again thanks to the housing shortage and spiraling (rental) prices in Dublin (it's like it's 2005 all over again! :rolleyes:)

Where shopping is concerned, all this will do is benefit the suburban retail parks even more like Blanch, Liffey Valley etc - because trying to lug a week's shopping with the kids on a bus/LUAS is lots of fun! Longer term I can see businesses being affected and relocating as well if staff find it even harder than it is now to get to work.

Still, I suppose it'll make it easier for the junkies to get around the city centre so that's good(!!) I can see people just avoiding the City Centre for their shopping/socialising needs instead.

Here's a better idea.. start building affordable, decent-sized accommodation in the City Centre so people don't have to commute in the first place! Support that by having AGS do a massive and ongoing clean-up of the area, and ensure the transport links to suburban areas (and beyond) are high quality and of sufficient capacity to handle the demand from customers who can't just relocate to within D1/D2 and immediate surrounds.

Aard

A third of people access the city centre by car. A smaller fraction again would access the CBD by car.

A lot of people from the inner suburbs (Dublin 4 / 6 distance) access by car who could easily switch to less space-consuming modes.

A lot of people live along high frequency transport routes who could easily switch to Luas / Dart / 46a etc.

People living beyond the M50 are unlikely to change their transport habits too much. It's the closer-in people who will. This will create space at the same time that it's being taken away, being a net zero.

I'd also be interested in knowing if all the naysayers have read the entire documents, or just looked at the headlines and colourful pictures.

end of the road

i'm in to minds about removing the connolly luas stop. personally i'd rather the operator was forced to go back to operating trams to it for all the hours trains run. it can be every second tram. but maybe if this walkway can happen i'd certainly use it unless the phoenix park tunnel train happens which i might use that instead. i think consideration should be given to more multi-story car parks which will have busses running from them into the city centre or maybe even specially designed busses to the shopping areas so people won't have to be hauling shopping on normal busses meaning the loss of being able to bring the car near might be negated in some way.

hardCopy

cgcsb wrote: »

Again it was a tongue and cheek comment. I say it because I know pleanty of people who probably arent that able on a bike who just wouldn't cycle because of the perceived danger. Although there aren't many accidents the site of a double decker cutting in and out of cycle lanes would put the fear up one. And then you have tax drivers trying to kill you into the bargain.

Perceived danger is exactly what it is. I don't know any frequent cyclists who would say they feel in danger every morning on their bike. I know plenty who would have thought it was dangerous before they started.

The hard part is convincing people to just give it a go in the beginning, car free streets and dedicated cycle lanes go a long way toward convincing people it will be safe.

Dyr

One thing I've noticed about the city centre is just how awkward it is to get across the city as a pedestrian, you are running into traffic lights and road works every second minute, having to take long detours to cross roads and junctions, this might address some of that

would absolutely needs enforcement of the cycling restrictions.

Aard

Bambi wrote: »

would absolutely needs enforcement of the cycling restrictions.

I think some of the cycling restrictions are unnecessary.

Suffolk St is wide enough for a 3.5m two-way cycle track down the middle. It's also a pinch-point in the city centre street network. And would keep bikes away from the future Luas tracks going around Trinity.

Blocking off Stephen's Green North is an opportunity lost. When the future Luas gets green lights to go around the corner, you could have a two-way cycle track using the same green lights.

Bike routes around Grafton Street are very limited and this plan makes it even more difficult. Kind of ridiculous when elsewhere in the document there is a goal to get cycling mode share up to 15%.

dfx-

MGWR wrote: »

As for "dilute", that needs context.

reducing the area covered, reducing the particular streets covered or yes to these street, no to that street, reducing the hours it happens as with the bus gate.

Subpopulus wrote: »

Much of this Scheme is made up of other smaller schemes, which have been pulled together in a coherent fashion so that they're not all tripping over each others toes. This includes LUAS CrossCity, the BRT systems, the Greater Dublin Cycle network etc. etc. Surprisingly the synergy of all these parts has come together quite nicely, without any major bodges. They've also been developed over the past few years, so there's a fairly weighty body of work behind them now. There's now a very large case that this scheme has been thought through, and that this can work.

Some of the proposals of the scheme are already happening in various ways - such as Suffolk Street being pedestrianised, and the reduction in the number of bus routes terminating in the city centre. Also, when the LUAS starts running across the city centre then something will have to be done - the status quo won't work really any more.

So in what order are these supposed to happen or all at once? In what timeframe?

I'm all in favour of removing cars from the city centre, but not as the transport network is at the moment.

Spanish Eyes

I read that the timeframe for all the changes is up to 2023, yikes!

But then again that gives time to roll out the changes very slowly. Too slowly if you ask me though.

Anyway, for car users, this is going to happen I think. And by the time a few years have passed and LUAS cross city is running, it will be imperative I think.

Pedestrians, PT commuters and cyclists will be pleased about this vision. I am one of them.

Definitely coaches and private buses need their own space/bus station. The number of them on Bachelor's Walk every day is just unreal. I wonder will the proposals affect the myriad of tour buses that park on Nassau Street beside the College?

Car drivers who use the city to get around will not like it much. The negativity has already started. Who knew? But I am sure car drivers have legitimate concerns that will hopefully be addressed.

It won't please everyone, that's for sure, no matter what lobby you belong to.

cdebru

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Feck but I hate this reasoning whenever changes are proposed - let's do it because other places do it and aren't we big boys and girls and the equal of any other place?

This proposal is ridiculous without addressing the means by which people get to the City Centre in the first place which is still significantly by car and why they go there. Do people think such people want to spend a fortune on parking every or stuck in traffic every morning/evening? No, but they do so because they have no other realistic alternative to get to and from work - something that is going to get worse again as people are pushed out into the surrounding counties again thanks to the housing shortage and spiraling (rental) prices in Dublin (it's like it's 2005 all over again! :rolleyes:)

Where shopping is concerned, all this will do is benefit the suburban retail parks even more like Blanch, Liffey Valley etc - because trying to lug a week's shopping with the kids on a bus/LUAS is lots of fun! Longer term I can see businesses being affected and relocating as well if staff find it even harder than it is now to get to work.

Still, I suppose it'll make it easier for the junkies to get around the city centre so that's good(!!) I can see people just avoiding the City Centre for their shopping/socialising needs instead.

Here's a better idea.. start building affordable, decent-sized accommodation in the City Centre so people don't have to commute in the first place! Support that by having AGS do a massive and ongoing clean-up of the area, and ensure the transport links to suburban areas (and beyond) are high quality and of sufficient capacity to handle the demand from customers who can't just relocate to within D1/D2 and immediate surrounds.

How many people drive into the city to do their weekly grocery shopping ? How many people driving through bachelors walk or Westmoreland street/ Dolier Street have any actual business to attend to in those areas ?

seamus

Aard wrote: »

A lot of people from the inner suburbs (Dublin 4 / 6 distance) access by car who could easily switch to less space-consuming modes.

A lot of people live along high frequency transport routes who could easily switch to Luas / Dart / 46a etc.

So I worked in a company with two Dublin offices, with a LUAS line going right past the front door of both.

They had an external company come in and do a travel survey as part of a whole healthy living buzz. They found that the people most likely to take public transport were those who lived > 10km from the city centre and those most likely to drive lived < 10km from the city centre. In other words, the wealthier employees. Those who had the most access to different forms of transport, were the least likely to avail of them and drive instead. Because they could afford to.

As much as people would like to pretend otherwise, there is still a snobbery issue in relation to transport, and being able to say you drove into work rather than took the bus or cycled is seen as a badge of honour by many.

cdebru

hardCopy wrote: »

Perceived danger is exactly what it is. I don't know any frequent cyclists who would say they feel in danger every morning on their bike. I know plenty who would have thought it was dangerous before they started.

The hard part is convincing people to just give it a go in the beginning, car free streets and dedicated cycle lanes go a long way toward convincing people it will be safe.

The weather argument is the exact same, people perceive the weather to be much worse than it actually is, if you actually ask people who cycle how often it rains on their commute it is much lower than the people who dont cycle perceive it to be.

Dyr

Aard wrote: »

I think some of the cycling restrictions are unnecessary.

Suffolk St is wide enough for a 3.5m two-way cycle track down the middle. It's also a pinch-point in the city centre street network. And would keep bikes away from the future Luas tracks going around Trinity.

Blocking off Stephen's Green North is an opportunity lost. When the future Luas gets green lights to go around the corner, you could have a two-way cycle track using the same green lights.

Bike routes around Grafton Street are very limited and this plan makes it even more difficult. Kind of ridiculous when elsewhere in the document there is a goal to get cycling mode share up to 15%.

On the whole, irish cyclists are not capable of sharing space with pedestrians, by definition a plaza or pedestrian zone needs to exclude cyclists

Aard

seamus wrote: »

As much as people would like to pretend otherwise, there is still a snobbery issue in relation to transport, and being able to say you drove into work rather than took the bus or cycled is seen as a badge of honour by many.

That is very interesting. Do you know if the external company initiated anything in the way of encouraging use of PT/bike/walking? Or was it more of a baseline survey situation?

These "workplace travel plans" can be very effective. It's interesting your observation wrt car being the mode of choice for those with more money. Of course, parking in the city centre is at a premium and private spaces will be offered to employees very selectively. Some spaces in the Earlsfort Centre changed hands for eye-watering sums recently.

cgcsb

I'm surprised at some of the comments here. Some posters seem to think that everyone in suburban dublin goes into D2 to buy groceries. They don't they go into town to buy items of clothing or for coffee/beer/dinner. There aren't many people hauling sofas and TVs down Grafton St. Groceries are bought locally and bulky items are bought in subrubia or delivered to your door.

Aard

Bambi wrote: »

On the whole, irish cyclists are not capable of sharing space with pedestrians, by definition a plaza or pedestrian zone needs to exclude cyclists

I think that 100% pedestrianisation has to be implemented with caution. It's very tempting to go the whole hog, as it were, but I do wonder about the efficacy of such 100% pedestrian streets. I do not advocate "shared space" at all. I would be entirely opposed to it. "Cycle street" is a concept whereby there is specific delineation between ped's and cyclists. Sometimes delivery vehicles or local access for cars can be retained. (Without through-access so that it doesn't become a rat-run.)

beauf

Bambi wrote: »

On the whole, irish cyclists are not capable of sharing space with pedestrians, by definition a plaza or pedestrian zone needs to exclude cyclists

What definition?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/plaza

Pedestrian zones have a great variety of attitudes or rules towards human-powered vehicles such as bicycles, inline skates, skateboards and kick scooters. Some have a total ban on anything with wheels, others ban certain categories, others segregate the human-powered wheels from foot traffic, and others still have no rules at all. Many of Middle Eastern casbas have no wheeled traffic, but use donkey-driven or hand-driven carts for freight transport.

Aard

cgcsb wrote: »

I'm surprised at some of the comments here. Some posters seem to think that everyone in suburban dublin goes into D2 to buy groceries. They don't they go into town to buy items of clothing or for coffee/beer/dinner. There aren't many people hauling sofas and TVs down Grafton St. Groceries are bought locally and bulky items are bought in subrubia or delivered to your door.

Exactly. Especially wrt to bulky goods (white goods, furniture etc). These uses cannot afford city centre rents. There are a few exceptions like Brown Thomas or Arnotts. But even then those city-centre bulky goods shops are a fraction of the bulky-goods market. There is a specific zoning type called "Retail Warehousing" where these types of shops are encouraged. The Park in Carrickmines is an example. Nutgrove is zoned for Retail Warehousing, whereas Stillorgan and Dundrum (for example) are not. There is a push by the councils to have retail warehousing in those locations most accessible by road so that people can transport their bulky goods home with them should need be. The Greater Dublin Area has its own retail strategy to deal with this. Bulky good retailing in the city centre is not a part of this strategy. What bulky goods retailing there is in situ is just legacy stuff.

Dyr

beauf wrote: »

What definition?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/plaza

The irish definition that has to address the inveterate gobdaw that is the average irish cyclist

Dyr

cgcsb wrote: »

I'm surprised at some of the comments here. Some posters seem to think that everyone in suburban dublin goes into D2 to buy groceries. They don't they go into town to buy items of clothing or for coffee/beer/dinner. There aren't many people hauling sofas and TVs down Grafton St. Groceries are bought locally and bulky items are bought in subrubia or delivered to your door.

I buy an absolute shedload of groceries once a week in d1 and bus it back out to the suburbs, which is often a nightmare (oh hai dublin bus, oh hai regular rerouting of city centre bus services on a weekend)

cdebru

http://dublinbikeblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/WeatherandCyclinginDublin.pdf&ved=0CCEQFjACahUKEwjKiLfi64fGAhUlgdsKHT9EAEM&usg=AFQjCNHjZlTqMiAdYxvQPXT_P8V25zpU1A&sig2=HKPYX6mmYTdAwEAJmWu19Q

Its a report on perceptions of weather and cycling vs reality in Dublin.

Its interesting because over 60% of people said they reckoned if they cycled they would get rained on between 30% and 50% of the time, the report says the reality it is less than 5%

cgcsb

Bambi wrote: »

I buy an absolute shedload of groceries once a week in d1 and bus it back out to the suburbs, which is often a nightmare (oh hai dublin bus, oh hai regular rerouting of city centre bus services on a weekend)

Do you buy them on the way home from work?

beauf

Bambi wrote: »

The irish definition that has to address the inveterate gobdaw that is the average irish cyclist

An Irish definition would to ignore all the rules at every opportunity for as long as you get away with it.

The point really is that Pedestrian Zones often aren't limited to just Pedestrian Zones. Even when they are its often only between certain hours. So its its likey they would include provision for cyclists, and even vehicles at certain times.

LXFlyer

Bambi wrote: »

I buy an absolute shedload of groceries once a week in d1 and bus it back out to the suburbs, which is often a nightmare (oh hai dublin bus, oh hai regular rerouting of city centre bus services on a weekend)

Aren't any re-routings usually due to protest marches that basically bring the city centre to a standstill?

Hardly DB's fault surely?