Car free Dublin City Centre?

Orion

http://www.thejournal.ie/cars-banned-dublin-city-centre-2152917-Jun2015/

The new Dublin City Development Plan will have large sections of the city centre restricted to buses, bikes and pedestrians if passed. College Green, Suffolk Street, North and South Quays among others. Very interesting. Personally I think this would be a great thing for Dublin in general apart from being great for cyclists and public transport commuters. Imaging being able to cycle up the quays and only have to dodge buses instead of cars and taxis.

What do others think?

Cookie_Monster

ultimately will be watered down by all the various pro car lobbies I reckon. Would love to see it happen along with a canal cordon congestion charge but just can't see it actually happening in the next 5-10 years.

link mentions increasing frequency and capacity of the Dart, yet IE have spent the last couple of years systematically cutting down train lengths...

petethedrummer

How are we to have an economic recovery if people can't drive in to the city centre to pick up their wide screen televisions?

07Lapierre

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

link mentions increasing frequency and capacity of the Dart, yet IE have spent the last couple of years systematically cutting down train lengths...

shorter trains? might encourage more people to cycle, especially if there is no traffic to contend with.

But your right...I cant see this plan happening. The Indendent newspaper is already on the case : http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/cars-and-taxis-face-being-banned-from-large-parts-of-dublin-city-centre-31292092.html

Leroy42

It sounds terrible to me. Just buses with a few cyclists? The buses would have a field day.

Without any cars, peds would treat it as a ped zone and be walking all over the shop.

It will also have the effect of annoying the car drivers even more so when they meet you on any road outside of this zone they will feel even more entitled to tell you to get of their way, sure don't you have the whole city centre for your cycling now!

And of course it all sounds great in theory, but will we be investing in more buses/trains to transport all these people who can't use their cars? If the city centre is to continue to survive, not only additional buses for the number of people but also space for people with bags and shopping, buggies, wheelchairs etc.

An what about the large fall off in revenue from one street parking that this will cause. How are the council going to fund that shortfall.

buffalo

I'd like to see less headlines like this:

Cars and taxis face being banned from large parts of Dublin city centre

Radical plan seeks to take cars out of Dublin city centre

And more like this

Radical plan seeks to allow people in Dublin city centre

petethedrummer

If they would start slowly and just do South William street and turn it into the pedestrianised cafe street that it's crying out to be, then I'd be happy.

mvt

Well,since the bus gate at Trinity was curtailed by a group of concerned business owners who turned out to be carpark owners its hard to see this plan being implemented.

Would be nice though.

GasBrakeHonk

Whether the car lobby like it or not this is inevitable given the expected increase in the numbers of commuters into the city. Whether it can work or not is going to be down to the levels of investment that the government national & local are prepared to make into public transport and other alternatives, including cycling.

But I think it would be make the city a great place to be. We live in hope.

ThisRegard

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

ultimately will be watered down by all the various pro car lobbies I reckon.

Connor Faughnan coming up on News at 1 to discuss it.

Grandpa Hassan

I think it is inevitable though. Not a big bang like this. But gradual changes. It has to. Or Dublin will absolutely grind to a halt. Personally I think it is a pretty unpleasant place to be right now.....gridlocked everywhere. Throw in another 20% more cars, and there would literally be no movement. Which is surely as bad for business as there being no cars at all

There might be resistance, but I suspect that this plan is out there intended to be watered down, and the planners actually know already which bits they are going to give up as a compromise to the taxi lobby.

No-one thought that the most recent cycle works in London - the removal of lanes on the embankment and their replacement with cycle routes - would happen. All sorts were against it, and court cases threatened. It looked dead in the water 2 years ago. But digging has started and it will be great when its done. I know its not the same scale as a large scale pedestrianisation but there was an acceptance even by the taxi lobby in the end that there has to be a pro-cycle policy

There is an inevitability about all of this

jon1981

The plans is only about stopping cars going into certain areas of the city that you would want to be bonkers for taking a car there anyway! Plenty of parking 10-15 min walk from most of those city areas anyway!

Don't see what all the fuss would be about other than maybe the taxi driver who would be impacted.

buffalo

mvt wrote: »

Well,since the bus gate at Trinity was curtailed by a group of concerned business owners who turned out to be carpark owners its hard to see this plan being implemented.

Would be nice though.

The gate at Trinity didn't last once a car went near it! :P



In all seriousness, as a person who spends a lot of time (and money) in the city centre, this is only a good thing.

The_Pretender

jon1981 wrote: »

Don't see what all the fuss would be about other than maybe the taxi driver who would be impacted.

I'm hoping taxi drivers would be all for this, it should allow them to get across the city much quicker without having to deal with non-PSVs around college green and the quays.

jon1981

The_Pretender wrote: »

I'm hoping taxi drivers would be all for this, it should allow them to get across the city much quicker without having to deal with non-PSVs around college green and the quays.

I thought the proposal is that not even taxis would be allowed into those locations?

buffalo

jon1981 wrote: »

I thought the proposal is that not even taxis would be allowed into those locations?

It varies, but overall, private through-traffic would decrease dramatically, even in the areas where it's allowed.

Via the IT:

OleRodrigo

Dublin City Centre was never made for the volume of traffic currently flowing through it, which is mostly comprised of taxis, Dublin Bus and coaches - not sure it will make much difference restricting private cars.

godtabh

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

ultimately will be watered down by all the various pro car lobbies I reckon. Would love to see it happen along with a canal cordon congestion charge but just can't see it actually happening in the next 5-10 years.

link mentions increasing frequency and capacity of the Dart, yet IE have spent the last couple of years systematically cutting down train lengths...

The problem with the dart/trains is Connolly station. Trains coming from Maynooth, Sligo, Belfast, Dundalk, the DART etc onto to tracks means there is a massive restriction in capacity. Scheduling is a nightmare and unlikely to change.

I worked on Metro North years ago doing traffic management for it. Banning cars from the quays, O'Connell Street, Westmoorland Street, College Green etc was the first suggestions. The reaction wasnt great and this was only a temporary measure. Legal action was threaten by many. The car parks in the city center came together to form a lobby group.

Same thing will happen with this and nothing will get done

lennymc

wont somebody think of the motorcyclists!

jon1981

godtabh wrote: »

I worked on Metro North years ago doing traffic management for it. Banning cars from the quays, O'Connell Street, Westmoorland Street, College Green etc was the first suggestions. The reaction wasnt great and this was only a temporary measure. Legal action was threaten by many. The car parks in the city center came together to form a lobby group.

I can see the huge challenge they will with the car parks, some of them are in areas that if the measure were to go ahead it would not be possible for cars to access. I guess a rich developer could take it off their hands and build lots of tiny apartments

Ranchu

jon1981 wrote: »

I can see the huge challenge they will with the car parks, some of them are in areas that if the measure were to go ahead it would not be possible for cars to access. I guess a rich developer could take it off their hands and build lots of tiny apartments

Great news for the large shopping centres in the suburbs if passed. Fatal for retail in the city centre though.

jon1981

Ranchu wrote: »

Great news for the large shopping centres in the suburbs if passed. Fatal for retail in the city centre though.

i wonder if that would be so. Would be interesting to see if there was a study done on this based on other cities that introduced this. I mean you can still park close enough to town without having to drive up the quays or college green. There's christchurch and Stephens green multi story for example and many many roads that have on street parking.

Ranchu

jon1981 wrote: »

i wonder if that would be so. Would be interesting to see if there was a study done on this based on other cities that introduced this. I mean you can still park close enough to town without having to drive up the quays or college green. There's christchurch and Stephens green multi story for example and many many roads that have on street parking.

The car parks won't be able to deal with the extra capacity and the people currently driving in are most likely doing so because they are buying something bulky or have kids in tow. Closing off College Green and the quays is also going to make congestion far worse everywhere else.

I live a 15 minute walk from Grafton Street but if I'm buying anything big or a few things I already prefer to drive off to a retail park. Anything smaller and I'll just walk to town. Maybe most people do this already and it won't have as big an impact as I think it will.

jon1981

Ranchu wrote: »

The car parks won't be able to deal with the extra capacity and the people currently driving in are most likely doing so because they are buying something bulky or have kids in tow.

I live a 15 minute walk from Grafton Street but if I'm buying anything big or a few things I already prefer to drive off to a retail park. Anything smaller and I'll just walk to town. Maybe most people do this already and it won't have as big an impact as I think it will.

The capacity will certainly be an issue, no solving that unless you hike the prices and discouraged ppl from using them.

On the shopping habits and bulky items topic , off the top of my head i can only think of places like Argos or an electronics store were you might have to have a car close by for something big & heavy and those stores tend to be in places like Jervis , Arnotts or the Ilac centre for example, all of which have car parks that would be accessible in a roundabout way under the proposed restrictions. I think this really comes down to forcing people to change their shopping habits and comforts somewhat. Interesting to watch how it plays out (if at all ).

But likewise if i want to buy anything so big that needs a car i tend to off to a retail park for that and maybe you'll see less of those kinds of stores in town.


EDIT: I better get back on topic

This will make my work commute so much more pleasurable!

Ranchu

jon1981 wrote: »

The capacity will certainly be an issue, no solving that unless you hike the prices and discouraged ppl from using them.

On the shopping habits and bulky items topic , off the top of my head i can only think of places like Argos or an electronics store were you might have to have a car close by for something big & heavy and those stores tend to be in places like Jervis , Arnotts or the Ilac centre for example, all of which have car parks that would be accessible in a roundabout way under the proposed restrictions. I think this really comes down to forcing people to change their shopping habits and comforts somewhat. Interesting to watch how it plays out (if at all ).

But likewise if i want to buy anything so big that needs a car i tend to off to a retail park for that and maybe you'll see less of those kinds of stores in town.


EDIT: I better get back on topic

This will make my work commute so much more pleasurable!

Jarvis, Ilac and Arnotts are all on the northside though. Brown Thomas and their car park will have a fit. I'm fairly sure they're already the main reason South William Street hasn't been pedestrianised already. It really wouldn't affect me either way and it would probably be a good thing for the most part. I'd love to know what retail businesses think of it though.

Effects

07Lapierre wrote: »

shorter trains? might encourage more people to cycle, especially if there is no traffic to contend with.

I used to live too far away from the city to cycle. Unfortunately I also couldn't bring my bike on the train as they don't really make allowances for it. Sure, the timetable shows the train has bike facilities but it's rarely the case. Being left stuck on a platform a couple of times put me off trying again.

beauf

Effects wrote: »

..Sure, the timetable shows the train has bike facilities but it's rarely the case. Being left stuck on a platform a couple of times put me off trying again.

Folding bike doesn't need facilities. (in general). Though it can be awkward on a intercity when its crammed, and you can't reach the larger luggage rack.

beauf

Can't see this plan happening for a long time. It would suit me. But I don't really drive city centre that much so I'm bias.

Cookie_Monster

buffalo wrote: »

Via the IT:

how on earth do you pedestrianise Suffolk st currently, a huge number of south side bus routes go down there as well as Aircoach etc. Where do all they end up going? Reconvert lower Grafton to two way, or big detours out via George st or Trinity loop down Westland row?

L'Enfer du Nord

Ranchu wrote: »

Jarvis, Ilac and Arnotts are all on the northside though. Brown Thomas and their car park will have a fit. I'm fairly sure they're already the main reason South William Street hasn't been pedestrianised already. It really wouldn't affect me either way and it would probably be a good thing for the most part. I'd love to know what retail businesses think of it though.

That and the fact AA have their HQ on South William Street, you think they'd move out to the long mile road or something.

I live in D2 and usually head to Henry Street or maybe Dundrum if I want to do some serious shopping. Kind of think all you can get in the Grafton street area is clothes, food and coffee. Have ended up in Argos a few times, cause there's really no department stores worth talking about. Never go into Brown Thomas because I feel everything is way over priced. I 'm willing to bet Grafton Street will still be attracting the crowds long after Dundrum shopping centre has closed down. What exactly those crowds will be doing is another question. Gawking at rubbish robot buskers?

nc19

Orion wrote:

........Imaging being able to cycle up the quays and only have to dodge buses instead of cars and taxis.

What about all the pedestrians not giving a fcuk about traffic because they no there's no cars? Pedestrian v cyclist RTAs up 700% I'd say

buffalo

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

how on earth do you pedestrianise Suffolk st currently, a huge number of south side bus routes go down there as well as Aircoach etc. Where do all they end up going? Reconvert lower Grafton to two way, or big detours out via George st or Trinity loop down Westland row?

Suffolk St is currently closed to all traffic, and has been for a couple of months, and the sky hasn't fallen in.

SPDUB

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

how on earth do you pedestrianise Suffolk st currently, a huge number of south side bus routes go down there as well as Aircoach etc. Where do all they end up going? Reconvert lower Grafton to two way, or big detours out via George st or Trinity loop down Westland row?

It's been closed to traffic for the last 2 months because of Luas works so they could just keep it closed

ETA Answered already

rp

jon1981 wrote: »

I can see the huge challenge they will with the car parks

Turn them into multi-story dance clubs, the ambience would be fantastic, all styles catered for with a floor each!

kerry4sam

Orion wrote: »

http://www.thejournal.ie/cars-banned-dublin-city-centre-2152917-Jun2015/

The new Dublin City Development Plan will have large sections of the city centre restricted to buses, bikes and pedestrians if passed. College Green, Suffolk Street, North and South Quays among others. Very interesting. Personally I think this would be a great thing for Dublin in general apart from being great for cyclists and public transport commuters. Imaging being able to cycle up the quays and only have to dodge buses instead of cars and taxis.

What do others think?

I understand this is the Cycling forum and not the Commuting/Transport forum but from a different physical perspective.
We do have a generation of people out here who are not all that comfortable on public transport and especially so in built-up City areas.
We also have people who would have a disability of sorts in the movements and should anything happen on public transport, well they wouldn't stand a chance.
Just read varying areas on issues on public transport in Dublin to get a feel for what I'm referring to.

I think an exception should be allowed for say, a vehicle with a 'disabled' badge perhaps. That could assist with easing the minds & helping confidence of some folks.

Dublin is grand if you're fit and mobile in your movements. Have any form of restricted movement and Dublin is not that comfortable a city to be in.

Just don't think hearing, well stay outta Dublin then would actually solve anything. Especially so if they are there to visit loved ones etc.

I hope someone out there has thoughts of these and measures will be put in place to assist.
Just my thoughts,
kerry4sam

/just speaking from personal experiences here

rp

Ranchu wrote: »

Great news for the large shopping centres in the suburbs if passed. Fatal for retail in the city centre though.

I seem to remember reading that when Amsterdam banned cars from the city centre, retail, cafes, resturants all experienced a big increase in business.
This article suggests that local trade can see 40% increase, and that kind of makes sense. Long gone are the days you'd pull up outside James Foxes to run in to grab a handful of Havanas. Cars are mostly rat-running from one side of the city to the other.

magicbastarder

petethedrummer wrote: »

If they would start slowly and just do South William street and turn it into the pedestrianised cafe street that it's crying out to be, then I'd be happy.

this is a pet peeve of mine. it's a narrow street and they allow parking on both sides of the road, so it's incredibly pedestrian unfriendly, especially along the southern half.

Bucklesman

jon1981 wrote: »

i wonder if that would be so. Would be interesting to see if there was a study done on this based on other cities that introduced this. I mean you can still park close enough to town without having to drive up the quays or college green. There's christchurch and Stephens green multi story for example and many many roads that have on street parking.

Ranchu wrote: »

The car parks won't be able to deal with the extra capacity and the people currently driving in are most likely doing so because they are buying something bulky or have kids in tow. Closing off College Green and the quays is also going to make congestion far worse everywhere else.

I live a 15 minute walk from Grafton Street but if I'm buying anything big or a few things I already prefer to drive off to a retail park. Anything smaller and I'll just walk to town. Maybe most people do this already and it won't have as big an impact as I think it will.

There was a study done earlier this year by the NTA that found that less than a fifth of revenue on Grafton Street and Henry Street was from people who came by car.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/consumer/public-transport-users-and-walkers-spend-most-in-dublin-shops-1.2107019

Greenmachine

What if you need to access somewhere in the north inner city like fairview or ballybough or the north strand. No car on bachelors walk. Are cars expected to turnoff already at parkgate street and arrive there via the north circular road?

Spanish Eyes

Grafton Street is a dump full of mobile phone shops, fast food and ironically high end stuff aswell.

Imagine the so called Premier Street in the city has no benches to sit on.

Imagine it doesn't have any nice street cafes with outdoor seating (for good weather obv.) that adds so much to the ambience of a street.

TBH I am baffled as to why people go there at all. Can't remember the last time I was on it, oh yes, getting to Gotham. But I could have used Dawson Street.

Sth William Street is such a great candidate for pedestrianisation. Vision, Vision....

Spanish Eyes

Greenmachine wrote: »

What if you need to access somewhere in the north inner city like fairview or ballybough or the north strand. No car on bachelors walk. Are cars expected to turnoff already at parkgate street and arrive there via the north circular road?

Well why not? It's not as if you are stopping off in O'Connell Street for a burger on the way.

Non car users are slowly getting their city back. Hallelujah.

magicbastarder

i've always been in two minds about the wisdom of allowing taxis to use lanes which private cars are not allowed into - a taxi is no more efficient a way of getting from A to B than a private car, and is arguably less so, as the capacity of a taxi is usually 4 'travellers' but 5 for a private car.
multi-occupancy lanes make far more sense.

magicbastarder

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Well why not? It's not as if you are stopping off in O'Connell Street for a burger on the way.

to be fair, the NCR can be bedlam during rush hour.

Spanish Eyes

magicbastarder wrote: »

to be fair, the NCR can be bedlam during rush hour.

Where isn't?

Spanish Eyes

There will always be complaints and angst when something like this is proposed. I rarely if ever take my car into town nowadays, it is just not worth it.

Having said that there ARE people for whom a car is essential. But I doubt all of them really mean that!

It looks like this thing has legs. And I know lots of people will be put out. However, gradually, over time it will happen I think. And the NTA and DCC have said that alternative routes will be in place, deliveries will be catered for, and car parks will be sorted. I'm not too sure about that one though, a massive car park at Heuston?

Something has to be done though. The city is totally choked, and pedestrians are often like sardines on College Green/Westmoreland St. it is heaving. And all the bus stops on WM Street don't help either. The paths are just far too narrow for all the bodies using those paths.

I am not rabid about it either way. But I am open to sensible proposals.

I am sure no matter what I will not be happy be many things about it. Same for everyone else. But for the sake of our city and quality of life, I welcome debate about it anyway.

Ranchu

Bucklesman wrote: »

There was a study done earlier this year by the NTA that found that less than a fifth of revenue on Grafton Street and Henry Street was from people who came by car.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/consumer/public-transport-users-and-walkers-spend-most-in-dublin-shops-1.2107019

A fifth is still a lot. If your salary was cut by a fifth you'd know all about it.

rp wrote: »

I seem to remember reading that when Amsterdam banned cars from the city centre, retail, cafes, resturants all experienced a big increase in business.
This article suggests that local trade can see 40% increase, and that kind of makes sense. Long gone are the days you'd pull up outside James Foxes to run in to grab a handful of Havanas. Cars are mostly rat-running from one side of the city to the other.

That article doesn't really address the issue of access though. It talks about having a more active population and that's it.

monument

Greenmachine wrote: »

What if you need to access somewhere in the north inner city like fairview or ballybough or the north strand. No car on bachelors walk. Are cars expected to turnoff already at parkgate street and arrive there via the north circular road?

If you're coming from around Parkgate St, I can't see the issue using the North Circular Road... Is there one?

Ranchu wrote: »

A fifth is still a lot. If your salary was cut by a fifth you'd know all about it.

Where is it suggested that all car access will be cut?

L'Enfer du Nord

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Grafton Street is a dump full of mobile phone shops, fast food and ironically high end stuff aswell.

Imagine the so called Premier Street in the city has no benches to sit on.

Imagine it doesn't have any nice street cafes with outdoor seating (for good weather obv.) that adds so much to the ambience of a street.

TBH I am baffled as to why people go there at all. Can't remember the last time I was on it, oh yes, getting to Gotham. But I could have used Dawson Street.

Sth William Street is such a great candidate for pedestrianisation. Vision, Vision....

Have to disagree with your vision for Grafton street. It's been a shopping street since the 19th century. Are their that many fast food joints? I like to sit outside with a coffee or drink as much as the next man but Grafton street is a shopping street not an entrainment hub. I'm not a huge fan of Grafton Street but I 'd really miss it if all the shops were replaced by charmless coffee shops and restaurants. And believe me with Grafton street rents they would be charmless.

Bucklesman

L'Enfer du Nord wrote: »

Have to disagree with your vision for Grafton street. It's been a shopping street since the 19th century. Are their that many fast food joints? I like to sit outside with a coffee or drink as much as the next man but Grafton street is a shopping street not an entrainment hub. I'm not a huge fan of Grafton Street but I 'd really miss it if all the shops were replaced by charmless coffee shops and restaurants. And believe me with Grafton street rents they would be charmless.

I reckon the high rent and massive crowds you get on Grafton Street are evidence that town is crying out for more pedestrianised streets.

L'Enfer du Nord

Bucklesman wrote: »

I reckon the high rent and massive crowds you get on Grafton Street are evidence that town is crying out for more pedestrianised streets.

I agree, what it really needs is a big open square. I'd consider paving over the Liffy between O'Connell Bridge and Butt Bridge. Not likely to happen. College Green when closed off to traffic would be quite a big space.

Grafton street can get jammers, buskers make it worse.

ted1

They need to remove the toll from the east link. Plenty of people using o'connell bridge, butt bridge, etc to get to clontarf etc, as they don't want to pay the toll.

Also single occupancy cats should be banned during rush hour, while cars with 4 or more should be allowed in the bus lane/ car pool lane

The future is bright for couriers with cargo bikes.