Car free Dublin City Centre?

Qualitymark

Still drooling over the thought of the E Line Luas, which has been long-fingered for now, but would be a great public transport service. The economists claimed to "find" that it would have a €2m fares shortfall; they're out of their minds - a Luas serving Clanbrassil Street, Harold's Cross, Terenure, Rathfarnham, Dundrum and their hinterlands would be massively used, and would take lots and lots of cars out of the city.

Many motorists already drive in from the country, leave their cars in Terenure or Harold's Cross back roads and take buses into the city.

buffalo

While I'm not building up any kind of hope after the recent quays consultation debacle ("everyone supports this option... okay, but we're not sure about it anyway ...oh look, there's a building in the way!"), it's encouraging that this measure is also garnering plenty of public support:

The Council has received more than 1,300 online responses within the first three weeks and the indications show a 3 to 1 support for reducing traffic volumes in city centre

http://www.dublincity.ie/dublin-city-transport-study-extension-consultation-period-announced-0

tomasrojo

Hopefully this isn't the underlying attitude of the participants:
http://www.theonion.com/article/report-98-percent-of-us-commuters-favor-public-tra-1434

tomasrojo

How Groningen invented a cycling template for cities all over the world
http://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/jul/29/how-groningen-invented-a-cycling-template-for-cities-all-over-the-world?CMP=share_btn_link

“Many people who lived in the old neighbourhoods were enthusiastic about our ideas. They saw we were changing things on a great scale. But there was also fierce opposition, especially from businessmen and shopkeepers who were convinced it would mean the end of their business if cars could no longer cross the centre. We tried to explain that we wanted to create a pleasant
urban environment that eventually would attract more people to the centre and to their shops. But they were convinced they would go bankrupt if customers would not be able reach their shop by car,” says Van den Berg. “In the end, it turned out they were wrong.”

Bruin Thomas being one of the most vocal, I assume.

tomasrojo

Interesting that Van den Berg, the politician responsible for the redesign of the radical new traffic flow in the Groningen, needed police protection. Bloody militant cyclists. I mean, shopkeepers and motorists.

Leroy42

This is a good video of Chris Boardman in Utrecht.

Seems like it can be done.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDLb6biq39A

Qualitymark

Interesting that the Dutch started with Car-Free Sundays, and the worried shopkeepers realised that they sold more when there weren't cars.
It's funny how you think differently when you have a car - you imagine that the "big shop" requires lots of space and an engine to carry it. In actuality, most of our shopping fits on a bike, and big things like fridges are usually delivered anyway.

Leroy42

Is there anybody that buys stuff in town that needs a car to get it home? I don't mean does it car make it easier, but is it actually required?

I doubt many, except those that live in the CC, actually do their weekly food shop in town. Clothes etc, except in the most extreme cases are usually a few bags at most. AS you say the bigger items, furniture etc, are delivered anyway (or should be if the shops want to remain in business).

Of course the above does not take into account the public transport, but I'm trying to keep that separate.

Qualitymark

Public transport is a disaster, mainly because the fares are so dear. If you've two kids and a couple of friends, taking the family into town for a wander through the museum or a bit of window-shopping is shockingly expensive. Family tickets - that could be loose about guest children - would bring lots more people into the city centre, with their wallets in their pockets and hungry little mouths to feed.

mirrormatrix

Leroy42 wrote: »

Is there anybody that buys stuff in town that needs a car to get it home? I don't mean does it car make it easier, but is it actually required?

No, but a bike sure isn't suitable. You can fit bugger all in a backpack and, even if I had panniers, I still wouldn't leave my bike parked in Dublin CC for fear of it not being there when I come back.

Am I the only one that thinks this is a terrible idea? Not only are they cutting off transport to the city centre, but they are cutting off transport through the CC. My only options to get to work at the minute are a 40km round trip cycle or a car journey across the east link. When this all goes ahead, the only ways to get from north to south of the city by car are going to be the east link and the M50, which will create all sorts of traffic issues. Not all of us have the luxury of working in the city centre.

tomasrojo

mirrormatrix wrote: »

No, but a bike sure isn't suitable. You can fit bugger all in a backpack and, even if I had panniers, I still wouldn't leave my bike parked in Dublin CC for fear of it not being there when I come back.

Well, I do my weekly shop by bike. But I have a bike-hod goods trailer, plus a pannier for anything left over when the trailer is full. I only occasionally meet people with goods trailers, but they really make a bike more versatile.

Not sure what weight the weekly shop is, but it's a fair bit. Maybe 40kg?

I got long curtain rails home with the goods trailer as well. They stuck up in the air diagonally, so they were very easy to carry.

I used the child trailer to get all kinds of things home from Ikea too. Got a kid's bed and mattress home. And a rug and full-size mattress on another occasion. And a Trofast storage unit, though that one was a bit heavy, I think.

You see this sort of thing in the Netherlands a lot more than here, obviously.

I leave my bike locked in town all the time. You definitely can leave it long enough to do a shop, if you have a very good and a good lock on it, used with common sense. (Depends on what sort of bike it is. I have a pretty good bike, but it isn't very desirable, I think.)

tomasrojo

Qualitymark wrote: »

Public transport is a disaster, mainly because the fares are so dear. If you've two kids and a couple of friends, taking the family into town for a wander through the museum or a bit of window-shopping is shockingly expensive. Family tickets - that could be loose about guest children - would bring lots more people into the city centre, with their wallets in their pockets and hungry little mouths to feed.

Yeah, that's a good idea. I wouldn't say public transport in Dublin is a disaster though. I've used it quite happily for years.

The problem is if you have a car, so many costs are up front, so almost any family journey after up-front costs is cheaper by car than public transport. If you don't own a car, I think public transport would end up cheaper over the course of a year. I use GoCar to get the best of both worlds. Only costs me a few hundred a year in practice.

mirrormatrix

tomasrojo wrote: »

Well, I do my weekly shop by bike. But I have a bike-hod goods trailer, plus a pannier for anything left over when the trailer is full. I only occasionally meet people with goods trailers, but they really make a bike more versatile.

Not sure what weight the weekly shop is, but it's a fair bit. Maybe 40kg?

I got long curtain rails home with the goods trailer as well. They stuck up in the air diagonally, so they were very easy to carry.

I used the child trailer to get all kinds of things home from Ikea too. Got a kid's bed and mattress home. And a rug and full-size mattress on another occasion. And a Trofast storage unit, though that one was a bit heavy, I think.

You see this sort of thing in the Netherlands a lot more than here, obviously.

I leave my bike locked in town all the time. You definitely can leave it long enough to do a shop, if you have a very good and a good lock on it, used with common sense.

Yeah, panniers do make life a lot easier for that type of thing I guess. I had them for a while but found them to be a bit of a nuisance. The fact that the ones I had were always making noises didn't help. Maybe i'll give them a go again. The few occassions where I have gone to the shops i've ended up with a couple of bags hanging off the handlebars which is just a nightmare.

Agree with you on the lock side of things. Trouble is, without panniers, carrying a fahgeddabouit lock and another lock on your back for any sort of distance is just pure agony.

rp

Re: parking up to shop. When are we getting those Japanese multistory-subterranean bike parks?

Qualitymark

I use buses too, but they're dear, and the exact-change thing or keeping a Leap card topped up are a real pain. If you're bringing a bunch of kids into town, you can't put the whole lot on your Leap and have to work out exactly how much the fare is going to be…

Panniers or a basket are better than a backpack, which moves your centre of gravity up making you a little less stable. I use a Reisenthel handlebar bag which carries a vast amount - double what you can get on a basket - and can be clipped on and off so it's not there all the time; I have an old pannier on the back in case of overflow.

Was just musing on how a more open and liberal society has changed Ireland. People now bungee a big pack of toilet rolls onto their back carrier and it invokes no comments or stares; even 20 years ago people would have sniggered at the evidence that the person carrying it uses a toilet.

tomasrojo

mirrormatrix wrote: »

Trouble is, without panniers, carrying a fahgeddabouit lock and another lock on your back for any sort of distance is just pure agony.

Depends on what rear rack you have. There is a handlebar-mounting option someone posted before.

Definitely try not to carry stuff in bags on your handlebars, I think. I know a few people who've come a cropper that way.

Tenzor07

mirrormatrix wrote: »

Am I the only one that thinks this is a terrible idea? Not only are they cutting off transport to the city centre, but they are cutting off transport through the CC. My only options to get to work at the minute are a 40km round trip cycle or a car journey across the east link. When this all goes ahead, the only ways to get from north to south of the city by car are going to be the east link and the M50, which will create all sorts of traffic issues. Not all of us have the luxury of working in the city centre.

Yes, I would say so, it's not cutting off "transport", buses and Luas are transport.

I mean, it's only a very small area in the direct centre of the city, having large volumes of single occupancy private vehicles is not only bad for the environment, it's bad for city residents health.
It's expensive for councils to maintain the roads/traffic signals, for the Gardai to provide staff to police incidents involving cars and monitor motor traffic flows.
It's bad for business to have large volumes of motor traffic making it unpleasant for tourists and pedestrians coming to the city having to almost walk out onto the road on sections of narrow/busy pavement areas. Not to mention the noise and pollution along with danger crossing roads.
I could go on...

40km round trip, so 20k each way is at a moderate pace less than an hour by bicycle, so probably the same or longer by private car..

tomasrojo

Qualitymark wrote: »

I use buses too, but they're dear, and the exact-change thing or keeping a Leap card topped up are a real pain. If you're bringing a bunch of kids into town, you can't put the whole lot on your Leap and have to work out exactly how much the fare is going to be…

Yeah, my kids are still young enough that nobody tries to check them for tickets. We did get the kids Leap card for the older one. I live near a Luas stop, so keeping the card topped up is easy. There's an option to automatically have it topped up from your credit card when your reserve drops below €10.

Qualitymark wrote: »

Was just musing on how a more open and liberal society has changed Ireland. People now bungee a big pack of toilet rolls onto their back carrier and it invokes no comments or stares; even 20 years ago people would have sniggered at the evidence that the person carrying it uses a toilet.

Good point. I never thought about that, but it's true.

tomasrojo

There's another Fahgettaboudit option:
http://www.bikeblognyc.com/2012/12/pocket-full-of-kryptonite-locks-giveaway-on-twitter-and-instagram/
Transit h-bar carrier. Posted by beauf before.

Qualitymark

Depends on the bag on your handlebars. I've never (touch wood) had a problem with the centrally-mounted and wire-strengthened Reisenthel handlebar bag, but dangly shopping bags on the handles, yes, they can drag you off centre.

tomasrojo

Or get caught in the spokes, as happened to a guy I was in college with (though he was a kid when that happened). He still has small bits of gravel under his scalp from the outcome of that.

(Good point. I'm not thinking of things actually designed for carrying on handlebars.)

mcgratheoin

Tenzor07 wrote: »

40km round trip, so 20k each way is at a moderate pace less than an hour by bicycle, so probably the same or longer by private car..

I do a 40k round trip every day by bike from Leixlip area. It is without doubt the quickest mode of transport for me. Even though I live within a mile from Confey train station and work within a mile of Grand Canal Dock, there is no way to do the commute by public transport in under an hour. It's a 15 minute walk (minimum) , crowded train to Pearse, wait for DART to G Canal and then walk from there. Forget about driving into the city centre or parking once in there, my wife drove into town one day and I beat her home by half an hour on the bike!
I can do the cycle in anything from 45 minutes to an hour depending on weather/fitness/traffic lights/willingness to sweat etc.. and it saves me €5.74 a day which works out at nearly €30 a week or over €1000 per year.

tomasrojo

The 40km round trips are very doable if you're fit, but I think the proponents of the changes in the city centre are really thinking (primarily) of journeys under 5km, since they are very doable and make up most journeys done by car (or a very large minority).

rp

tomasrojo wrote: »

The 40km round trips are very doable if you're fit

And if you're not fit, you soon will be.

mcgratheoin

tomasrojo wrote: »

The 40km round trips are very doable if you're fit, but I think the proponents of the changes in the city centre are really thinking (primarily) of journeys under 5km, since they are very doable and make up most journeys done by car (or a very large minority).

Absolutely - i was just making the point that opposition to the changes on the grounds that it will delay through city transit times are not (for me) deal breakers at all, I would struggle to identify a journey inside the M50 that is presently quicker by car than bike at rush hour but will be significantly impacted by these changes. Anything outside or close to the M50 makes that the obvious route choice.
I would think that <5k journeys (the quays in Dublin are ~5k long as a good estimate) could also be facilitated by a further expansion of the Dublin Bikes scheme.

del_boy13

mcgratheoin wrote: »

Absolutely - i was just making the point that opposition to the changes on the grounds that it will delay through city transit times are not (for me) deal breakers at all, I would struggle to identify a journey inside the M50 that is presently quicker by car than bike at rush hour but will be significantly impacted by these changes. Anything outside or close to the M50 makes that the obvious route choice.
I would think that <5k journeys (the quays in Dublin are ~5k long as a good estimate) could also be facilitated by a further expansion of the Dublin Bikes scheme.

Not so sure I agree with the M50 being the best option. I live in Swords and work in Sandyford. Time by bike is between 50-60 minutes over and back through the city centre. In summer driving is usually around the 35-45 minute mark. So no major difference. The cost saving is massive though no tolls €4.20 per day plus petrol in my car costs another €5 and thats if I am moving.

In the winter when the traffic is heavier I might add 5 minutes to the commute but its nothing compared to the extra 30-40 minutes of traffic.

I appreciate that it suits me and for others 20k + through the city centre is daunting.

Leroy42

del_boy13 wrote: »

I appreciate that it suits me and for others 20k + through the city centre is daunting.

Not so daunting if they make if more cycle friendly, as in remove a lot of the vehicular traffic.

That is the mistake people are making when they look at this, and many other, ideas. They try to work out how the current situation would exist within the new system, rather than looking at what could happen because of the new system.

If this was to go ahead, the city centre part of the cycle would actually be the easiest.

Tenzor07

del_boy13 wrote: »

Not so sure I agree with the M50 being the best option. I live in Swords and work in Sandyford. Time by bike is between 50-60 minutes over and back through the city centre. In summer driving is usually around the 35-45 minute mark. So no major difference. The cost saving is massive though no tolls €4.20 per day plus petrol in my car costs another €5 and thats if I am moving.

In the winter when the traffic is heavier I might add 5 minutes to the commute but its nothing compared to the extra 30-40 minutes of traffic.

I appreciate that it suits me and for others 20k + through the city centre is daunting.

I'd say you are quoting the best possible M50 commuting times(at the 100kph limit of course!;), there was hardly a morning or evening when there wasn't some sort of collision or incident on the M50. Used to take me 50mins to 1 1/2hrs to get from the start of the M50 to exit 12 southbound, and same going back.
The cycle never took more than 45 to 50mins depending on wind direction.

Getting through city centre was the best part on a bike, moving past cars on Macken street in particular, where once took me 40mins to drive down!

mcgratheoin

del_boy13 wrote: »

Not so sure I agree with the M50 being the best option.

I meant M50 as distinct from driving through the city, not in comparison to cycling. I was just making the point that if your commute was anything like Swords to Santry, then driving time wouldn't be affected by these new rules. If it's anything shorter (e.g. Phibsboro to Dundrum), cycling would be waay quicker regardless of any new traffic restrictions.

Hmmzis

rp wrote: »

And if you're not fit, you soon will be.

+1 I've heard a lot of people telling the excuse of "but you have to be fit to commute on a bike". Which if course is just that, an excuse with no basis in reality. Fitness is a consequence of cycling, not a requirement.

tomasrojo

Obviously, some people have underlying health issues that rule out cycling even trivial distances.

Muahahaha

tomasrojo wrote: »

The 40km round trips are very doable if you're fit, but I think the proponents of the changes in the city centre are really thinking (primarily) of journeys under 5km, since they are very doable and make up most journeys done by car (or a very large minority).

IMO any journey of 10km or less can be done quicker that bicycle than it can be by Dublin Bus or driving. My own route is 9km to the city centre and I can cover it in 25-28 minutes most days, which is a tad faster than the bus service outside my door which takes 30-35 minutes to do the same trip. I'm not sure how it is in other parts of the city but my guess is that traffic has now got so slow in Dublin that a journey between any location inside the m50 to the city centre can be done quicker on a bicycle than by public transport. It's not that hard to maintain an average speed on a bike of 20kmph whereas the last surverys showed Dublin Bus average journey speeds at 16kmph, and thats with them having the ability to skip traffic in the bus lanes.

monument

Muahahaha wrote: »

IMO any journey of 10km or less can be done quicker that bicycle than it can be by Dublin Bus or driving. My own route is 9km to the city centre and I can cover it in 25-28 minutes most days, which is a tad faster than the bus service outside my door which takes 30-35 minutes to do the same trip. I'm not sure how it is in other parts of the city but my guess is that traffic has now got so slow in Dublin that a journey between any location inside the m50 to the city centre can be done quicker on a bicycle than by public transport. It's not that hard to maintain an average speed on a bike of 20kmph whereas the last surverys showed Dublin Bus average journey speeds at 16kmph, and thats with them having the ability to skip traffic in the bus lanes.

In 2006, inside the Dublin canals, it was 12 km/h for bicycles compared to 15km/h for cars. For trips within the M50, it was 14km/h on bikes compared to 18km/h for cars.

That's based on distance and average travel times from the Cencus, but I'm unsure how reliable it is given how people are poor at estimating both measures.

http://irishcycle.com/myths/myths-speed/

Icepick

tomasrojo wrote: »

Obviously, some people have underlying health issues that rule out cycling even trivial distances.

laziness is not a health issue

Qualitymark

del_boy13 wrote: »

Not so sure I agree with the M50 being the best option. I live in Swords and work in Sandyford. Time by bike is between 50-60 minutes over and back through the city centre. In summer driving is usually around the 35-45 minute mark. So no major difference. The cost saving is massive though no tolls €4.20 per day plus petrol in my car costs another €5 and thats if I am moving.

And also the basic costs of the car: insurance, tax, NCT, repayments if on a loan, annual checkup, tyres, inevitable bits that have to be fixed…

You do have the occasional fixie-uppy with a bike, but there's no comparison.

tomasrojo

http://irishcycle.com/2015/07/29/arnotts-ceo-rallies-businesses-against-dublin-city-centre-transport-plan/

Before joining Arnotts in 2010, Hernan was chief financial officer of Brown Thomas, a company which has a history of predicting the death of city centre retailers over transport projects.

He'd have been there at the time the Bus Gate caused Brown Thomas to close down and lay off all its staff, I guess?

rp

tomasrojo wrote: »

http://irishcycle.com/2015/07/29/arnotts-ceo-rallies-businesses-against-dublin-city-centre-transport-plan/

He'd have been there at the time the Bus Gate caused Brown Thomas to close down and lay off all its staff, I guess?

He might find this interesting, then:

“Many people who lived in the old neighbourhoods were enthusiastic about our ideas. They saw we were changing things on a great scale. But there was also fierce opposition, especially from businessmen and shopkeepers who were convinced it would mean the end of their business if cars could no longer cross the centre. We tried to explain that we wanted to create a pleasant urban environment that eventually would attract more people to the centre and to their shops. But they were convinced they would go bankrupt if customers would not be able reach their shop by car,” says Van den Berg. “In the end, it turned out they were wrong.”

http://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/jul/29/how-groningen-invented-a-cycling-template-for-cities-all-over-the-world

rp

We've until the 7th of August to get our spake in, on this:
https://consultation.dublincity.ie/traffic-and-transport/transport-study-consultation

tomasrojo

Also this petition from Rothar:

"Dublin City Council: We support a pedestrian and cycling space in Dublin City Centre as outlined in the Transport Plan."

http://www.change.org/p/dublin-city-council-we-support-a-pedestrian-and-cycling-space-in-dublin-city-centre-as-outlined-in-the-transport-plan

L'Enfer du Nord

tomasrojo wrote: »

http://irishcycle.com/2015/07/29/arnotts-ceo-rallies-businesses-against-dublin-city-centre-transport-plan/



He'd have been there at the time the Bus Gate caused Brown Thomas to close down and lay off all its staff, I guess?

Funnily enough even though I live in Dublin 2 I don't shop in the Henry Street area as much as I might like to because A)Its hard to get to because of traffic and one way systems(designed for cars)B) There's no where safe to park my bike (like the Dury Street bike Park on the Southside). I cycled into Arnott's car park only last week to see if it was possible to park my bike in there, but no definitly not. Also Store Street Gardai station has signs in front of it saying you can't park a bike there.

Dublin needs a North South cycling axis! At the very least.

manafana

Muahahaha wrote: »

Probably not that many, personally I just go to a retail park because the parking is free and theres less hassle getting there and back. My guess is that the opposition to a pedestrian and cycle friendly city centre is from the likes of Brown Thomas and similar high end businesses. If I were the CEO of BT's I'd be going mad over these plans- customers of BTs spend a lot of money per head coming in the door and the management there would be keenly aware that the type of customer who spends big bucks there will never take public transport or cycle- these people are not the type who would drop €2000 on some clothes and then get the bus home. They are a pedestrian only in the sense that they walk from the BT car park into the store itself.

I can understand the Brown Thomas position but certainly dont agree with it. As the city centre gets more and more squashed and congested we have to ask ourselves are we going to make policies that reflect the needs of the vast majority of the citys population or are we going to make policies that suit the less than 3% of the population that can afford to drop megabucks in BT's but refuse to do so unless they can get in and out by car (or Chelsea tractor?)

maybe they won't cycle, maybe they won't use the bus or luas, but likely they will pick up a taxi or park a car just a little further away, if your willing drop 2k on a bag, you probably won't care about paying for a taxi. But it might just get to some who drive because its the easy way rather than the best way and this can change mentality. In Netherlands the city centres are thriving, cycle the beater in wherever you want no congestion getting in find somewhere to park it (some issues with parking) and just enjoy the city.

Undercover Elephant

Statistically, the higher income group you are in, the more likely you are to cycle. Course, that doesn't count those spending other people's money.

manafana

Leroy42 wrote: »

This is a good video of Chris Boardman in Utrecht.

Seems like it can be done.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDLb6biq39A

that video is really well done, great example of why this will work in long run

magicbastarder

Undercover Elephant wrote: »

Statistically, the higher income group you are in, the more likely you are to cycle.

and the more you earn, the cheaper the cycle to work scheme becomes, so it's regressive in that sense.

Leroy42

Undercover Elephant wrote: »

Statistically, the higher income group you are in, the more likely you are to cycle. Course, that doesn't count those spending other people's money.

Is this true? Are we talking cycling in general? What is the reasoning behind this? Is it that lower incomes group use public transport more, or cars more or what?

tomasrojo

I think it's mostly that more well-off people aren't as concerned that others think they are poor. They might be status-obsessed in other ways, but they know people don't think they are poor.

Judging from working-class neighbourhoods I know, the levels of adult cycling are definitely lower than in middle-class neighbourhoods.

Undercover Elephant

Leroy42 wrote: »

Is this true? Are we talking cycling in general? What is the reasoning behind this? Is it that lower incomes group use public transport more, or cars more or what?

Yes, I'll try to dig out the studies when I'm back at my computer. I don't recall any of them having a proper look at the reasons, nor whether it applies if you take out leisure-only cyclists.

Undercover Elephant

It's also true that higher income groups are more likely to exercise, so it wouldn't be a surprise if more people from those groups did so on a bike.

It used to be that poor = thin and rich = fat. Now it's the other way around. The revolution is complete! What? Oh.

Tenzor07

Car traffic free residential areas?

This looks very promising: http://jrnl.ie/2247109

Qualitymark

Undercover Elephant wrote: »

Statistically, the higher income group you are in, the more likely you are to cycle. Course, that doesn't count those spending other people's money.

Teenagers?