Government Capital Spending on Roads: 2016-2022

Leonard Hofstadter

According to this article, the Government is due to announce a new roads programme in the not too distant future.

As the Irish Examiner article mentions, one of the roads that's being pushed is the N22 Macroom bypass. While it's certainly not the worst main road from Cork, it is definitely very important, Macroom suffers from desperate congestion at times.

Anyone know what other projects could be considered by the Government, assuming they go for the 'shovel ready' approach like they did with the last stimulus package announced in 2012?

Obviously, I'd like to see the M20 done asap, but I know that's not going to happen for a variety of reasons any time soon.

L1011

We're running out of shovel ready projects. There's a few others but not much

The N4 dualling would be in line with the upgrading Enda's way home package we've done so far, widening the N4 and N7 to appeal to commuter votes

marno21

Will this include PPPs or just State-funded projects?

L1011

marno21 wrote: »

Will this include PPPs or just State-funded projects?

Likely both, I'd imagine. Build/operate PPPs semi-frontload future maintenance costs which will be mounting in about 25 years when the last periods new roads will need resurfacing etc.

marno21

M20 should be the first scheme on this programme. Was dumped from the 2009 programme in favour of a city bypass that's no closer to starting than the M20. The N11 gap, N9, N18 and other subpar interurban routes have all been sorted so it's M20 time.

road_high

How far off/shovel ready are any of the N24 schemes? Not very I'd guess.

Say we may see a whole series of minor upgrades rather than many big schemes, particularly realignments on National secondary's.

L1011

The NRA website has the following schemes as "Planning":

N56 Dungloe-Glenties (this one is near ready, ground investigation has been done and CPOs prepared)
N56 Mountcharles-Inver (CPOs and clearance done)
N14/15-A5 Link (possibly pointless with no new A5)
N52 Ardee Bypass
M7 widening
N4 Cooloney-Castlebaldwin (good from a road safety PR perspective albeit the worst bend was removed in a smaller scheme)
N5 Ballaghadereen to Longford (this is only in early stages, but helpful for Enda to get reelected)
N5/N26 Turlough-Bohola (I've some memory this one was chucked by ABP and hence is quite early in re-planning?)
N5 Westport-Turlough
N59 Westport-Mulranney (both Enda schemes)
N59 Clifden-Oughterard (can easily be sold as a tourism boost)
N59 Moycullen Bypass
N6 Galway Bypass
N69 Listowel Bypass
N86 Tralee-Dingle
N22 Macroom Bypass
N8 Dunkettle Interchange (useful for votes against FF's Cork base)


The rest are "suspended" but some of those are actually close to ready depending on when they were suspended

Subpopulus

I'd imagine that the N22 Macroom-Ballyvourney and the Dunkettle Interchange will get the nod. There was talk earlier this year of combining the two into a single PPP like the N11 and Newlands Cross. Apart from the economic benefits, these projects would be good vote-getters, since Kerry TDs have been very vocal about the poor road connections into the county from Cork and Limerick. And as L1011 says, the Dunkettle Interchange Project would be good for countering FF arguments about the government not investing in Cork.

I imagine there'll be a fair bit of repackaging of older announcements - I though the N56 projects had already gotten money as part of the minor schemes package announced a few months back.

hi5

Don't we already have a road program from back in 2008, I thought the issue was a lack of money, the roads didn't mysteriously fix themselves since.:rolleyes:

marno21

hi5 wrote: »

Don't we already have a road program from back in 2008, I thought the issue was a lack of money, the roads didn't mysteriously fix themselves since.:rolleyes:

The projects in that scheme were:

M11 Arklow to Rathnew - opening July 2015
N7 Newlands Cross - done
M11 Enniscorthy Bypass - almost at construction stage
N25 New Ross Bypass - almost at construction stage
M17/M18 Gort - Tuam - under construction, opening circa. 2018
N6 Galway City Outer Bypass - at route selection

So it really is time for a new roads programme, and what better time to announce one than right before an election.

hi5

Its good to see that so much has actually gone ahead.
Here's what was suspended back in 2011..

http://www.bypassslane.ie/Tuesday9thAug11.html
Projects in the pipeline that are now suspended . . .

N2 Slane bypass.
N2 Castleblayney to NI Border.
N3 North of Kells to Cavan.
N4 Mullingar to Longford Rooskey.
N4 Carrick-on-Shannon to Dromod.
N4 Collooney to Castlebaldwin.
N5 Westport to N26 at Bohola.
M8 Dunkettle interchange upgrade.
M11 Enniscorthy to Gorey.
N11/N25 Oilgate to Rosslare Harbour.
N14 Letterkenny to Lifford.
N15 Ballybofey/Stranorlar bypass.
N15 Sligo to Bundoran.
N15 Lifford to Ballybofey/Stanorlar.
N17 Collooney to Tobercurry.
N17 Tobercurry bypass.
N17 Knock to Tobercurry.
N17 Tuam to Claremorris.
N21 Adare to Abbeyfeale.
N21 Adare bypass.
N22 Farranfore to Killarney.
N22 Ballyvourney to Macroom.
N22 Cork North Ring Road.
N24 Pallasgreen to Bansha.
N24 Ballysimon to Pallasgreen.
N25 New Ross bypass.
N25 Dungarvan bypass.
N25 Carrigtwohill to Midleton.
N25 Cork Southern Ring road upgrade.
N25 Waterford to Glenmore
N26 Ballina/Bohola.
N30 Clonroche to New Ross.

NATIONAL SECONDARY ROADS

N52 Kilbeggan to Tullamore.
N52 Ardee bypass.
N56 Dungloe to Glenties.
N56 Mountcharles to Inver.
N59 Clifden to Oughterard.
N59 Moycullen bypass.
N59 Westport to Mulranny.
N62 Thurles bypass.
N69 Listowel bypass.
N71 Kenmare bypass.
N81 Tallaght bypass to Hollywood Cross.
N86 Tralee to Dingle.
N87 Ballyconnell inner relief road.

Leonard Hofstadter

Hard to disagree with anything IBEC Cork are saying here. The Government's treatment of Cork when it comes to infrastructure is terrible to be fair; Yes I know there's been a recession and also we did manage to get the flyovers completed, which are good, but then there's all the dragging of heels with the M20 and apparently there's 'no money' to even try and do the groundwork so it's ready when the money does become available.

Either next week or the week after they're offically announcing their capital programme to take the country up to 2020, €3.5 billion on roads and other infrastructure per annum, hopefully 1 of those €17.5 billion can be allocated to the M20 as EU funding will see the M28 completed not to mention the Adare bypass via the N69....

I'm not getting my hopes up, though, given what Mr Donohue has been saying up to now.

D Trent

hi5 wrote: »

Its good to see that so much has actually gone ahead.
Here's what was suspended back in 2011..

http://www.bypassslane.ie/Tuesday9thAug11.html
Projects in the pipeline that are now suspended . . .

N2 Slane bypass.
N2 Castleblayney to NI Border.
N3 North of Kells to Cavan.
N4 Mullingar to Longford Rooskey.
N4 Carrick-on-Shannon to Dromod.
N4 Collooney to Castlebaldwin.
N5 Westport to N26 at Bohola.
M8 Dunkettle interchange upgrade.
M11 Enniscorthy to Gorey.
N11/N25 Oilgate to Rosslare Harbour.
N14 Letterkenny to Lifford.
N15 Ballybofey/Stranorlar bypass.
N15 Sligo to Bundoran.
N15 Lifford to Ballybofey/Stanorlar.
N17 Collooney to Tobercurry.
N17 Tobercurry bypass.
N17 Knock to Tobercurry.
N17 Tuam to Claremorris.
N21 Adare to Abbeyfeale.
N21 Adare bypass.
N22 Farranfore to Killarney.
N22 Ballyvourney to Macroom.
N22 Cork North Ring Road.
N24 Pallasgreen to Bansha.
N24 Ballysimon to Pallasgreen.
N25 New Ross bypass.
N25 Dungarvan bypass.
N25 Carrigtwohill to Midleton.
N25 Cork Southern Ring road upgrade.
N25 Waterford to Glenmore
N26 Ballina/Bohola.
N30 Clonroche to New Ross.

NATIONAL SECONDARY ROADS

N52 Kilbeggan to Tullamore.
N52 Ardee bypass.
N56 Dungloe to Glenties.
N56 Mountcharles to Inver.
N59 Clifden to Oughterard.
N59 Moycullen bypass.
N59 Westport to Mulranny.
N62 Thurles bypass.
N69 Listowel bypass.
N71 Kenmare bypass.
N81 Tallaght bypass to Hollywood Cross.
N86 Tralee to Dingle.
N87 Ballyconnell inner relief road.

This is a great road
What needs to be done here ?

marno21

All the roads out of Dublin have been upgraded to a decent standard, most have been fully upgraded to what's needed. Dublin's ring road also got a major upgrade with widening and fixing the interchanges.

Let's look at Cork:

N40: main interchange on this route is an at grade signalised roundabout. 3 other main junctions are... signalised roundabouts albeit not at grade. Douglas, a main destination along the route, has no westbound offramp or no eastbound on ramp. The North Ring Road has also not been built (there is a north ring road but it's a disgrace and completely unfit for purpose)

and the roads out of Cork:

N20: completely sub par, needs M upgrade along 70km or so of its route.
N22: Macroom/Ballyvourney bypass looks on the way, to replace possibly the worst section of national primary route in this country. Macroom-Ballincollig will then become a bottleneck but at least the worst section of the road is sorted.
N25: Carrigtoohill-Midleton has had its median crossings blocked which has made it safer, 2+2 to Youghal would be an idea incorporating bypasses of Castlemartyr and Killeagh however definately not an immediate priority.
N27: South City Link is relatively good, perhaps grade seperation of some of the junctions may be considered if space permits.
N28: EU funding will hopefully sort out this mess.
N71: Should be dual carraigeway as far as Halfway/Inishannon. An Inishannon bypass may not be a bad call either as it blocks up quite often.

All of these projects are necessary especially M20 North, M20 South, N22 Ballyvourney - Macroom, N22 Ballincollig - Macroom and the N28, but unless there's 20+ schemes in this programme I can't see Cork getting more than 2 schemes, although Wexford did get 3/6 schemes out of the last programme (N25 + 2x M11 , others Newlands Cross, M17/M18 and N6 GCOB)

L1011

D Trent wrote: »

This is a great road
What needs to be done here ?

There is a short, specific incredibly crap bit. Narrow with a bad junction.

The NRA scheme was for 4.6KM which sounds like a fairly hefty bypass of it though

AugustusMinimus

captainspeed wrote: »

Hard to disagree with anything IBEC Cork are saying here. The Government's treatment of Cork when it comes to infrastructure is terrible to be fair; Yes I know there's been a recession and also we did manage to get the flyovers completed, which are good, but then there's all the dragging of heels with the M20 and apparently there's 'no money' to even try and do the groundwork so it's ready when the money does become available.

Either next week or the week after they're offically announcing their capital programme to take the country up to 2020, €3.5 billion on roads and other infrastructure per annum, hopefully 1 of those €17.5 billion can be allocated to the M20 as EU funding will see the M28 completed not to mention the Adare bypass via the N69....

I'm not getting my hopes up, though, given what Mr Donohue has been saying up to now.

M25 motorway to Waterford ?

Is this really feasible ?. Long term I presume it will be 2+2 from Midleton to Kilmeaden ?

AugustusMinimus

hi5 wrote: »

Its good to see that so much has actually gone ahead.
Here's what was suspended back in 2011..

http://www.bypassslane.ie/Tuesday9thAug11.html
Projects in the pipeline that are now suspended . . .

N2 Slane bypass.
N2 Castleblayney to NI Border.
N3 North of Kells to Cavan.
N4 Mullingar to Longford Rooskey.
N4 Carrick-on-Shannon to Dromod.
N4 Collooney to Castlebaldwin.
N5 Westport to N26 at Bohola.
M8 Dunkettle interchange upgrade.
M11 Enniscorthy to Gorey.
N11/N25 Oilgate to Rosslare Harbour.
N14 Letterkenny to Lifford.
N15 Ballybofey/Stranorlar bypass.
N15 Sligo to Bundoran.
N15 Lifford to Ballybofey/Stanorlar.
N17 Collooney to Tobercurry.
N17 Tobercurry bypass.
N17 Knock to Tobercurry.
N17 Tuam to Claremorris.
N21 Adare to Abbeyfeale.
N21 Adare bypass.
N22 Farranfore to Killarney.
N22 Ballyvourney to Macroom.
N22 Cork North Ring Road.
N24 Pallasgreen to Bansha.
N24 Ballysimon to Pallasgreen.
N25 New Ross bypass.
N25 Dungarvan bypass.
N25 Carrigtwohill to Midleton.
N25 Cork Southern Ring road upgrade.
N25 Waterford to Glenmore
N26 Ballina/Bohola.
N30 Clonroche to New Ross.

NATIONAL SECONDARY ROADS

N52 Kilbeggan to Tullamore.
N52 Ardee bypass.
N56 Dungloe to Glenties.
N56 Mountcharles to Inver.
N59 Clifden to Oughterard.
N59 Moycullen bypass.
N59 Westport to Mulranny.
N62 Thurles bypass.
N69 Listowel bypass.
N71 Kenmare bypass.
N81 Tallaght bypass to Hollywood Cross.
N86 Tralee to Dingle.
N87 Ballyconnell inner relief road.

I presume the N25 South Ring Road upgrade was just the 2 flyover which were done it was there more to it ?

AugustusMinimus

I also think that M20 South needs to be bundled with M40 North Ring East.

M20 dumping big volumes of traffic into Blackpool might not be the best idea.

marno21

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

I presume the N25 South Ring Road upgrade was just the 2 flyover which were done it was there more to it ?

Can't see any other upgrades to be done on the South Ring that wouldn't require substantial work, of course that should also now say N40 South Ring Road upgrade.

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

I also think that M20 South needs to be bundled with M40 North Ring East.

M20 dumping big volumes of traffic into Blackpool might not be the best idea.

M20 will presumably terminate on the current Blarney bypass DC, unless the North Ring is built it'll be difficult to see where motorway restrictions end..

AugustusMinimus

"marno21 wrote: »

M20 will presumably terminate on the current Blarney bypass DC, unless the North Ring is built it'll be difficult to see where motorway restrictions end..

I mean that both builds need to be done at the same time. Both will greatly benefit from the other.

Leonard Hofstadter

I'd prefer to see the M20 done asap. I'm not really sure what way the scheme's divided up now (NRA website is not very clear to me), but between Mallow and Charleville is easily the worst in terms of standard of road and delays. Mallow-Cork is relatively OK. Once you get beyond Charleville it's not too bad (relatively speaking, of course).

I'd say knowing the Government they'll say Cork's getting its fair share of roads investment with the Dunkettle Interchange (I'm sure that will be announced as that has to come before the M28 and it's only €100 million) and the M28 even though the latter's coming from EU money . If we're lucky we'll see movement on Macroom as well - in fairness the N22 won't be too bad once that's done, obviously the bit between there and Ballincollig will have to be done eventually but sorting out Macroom and Ballyvourney will make a huge difference and remove what's by far the most dangerous bit as well as a big bottleneck, so it will make a huge difference. The Macroom bypass also has the advantage of covering Kerry voters as well and will be a real help for tourism - obviously if Kerry's easier to get to more people will go there.

marno21

captainspeed wrote: »

I'd prefer to see the M20 done asap. I'm not really sure what way the scheme's divided up now (NRA website is not very clear to me), but between Mallow and Charleville is easily the worst in terms of standard of road and delays. Mallow-Cork is relatively OK. Once you get beyond Charleville it's not too bad (relatively speaking, of course).

I'd say knowing the Government they'll say Cork's getting its fair share of roads investment with the Dunkettle Interchange (I'm sure that will be announced as that has to come before the M28 and it's only €100 million) and the M28 even though the latter's coming from EU money . If we're lucky we'll see movement on Macroom as well - in fairness the N22 won't be too bad once that's done, obviously the bit between there and Ballincollig will have to be done eventually but sorting out Macroom and Ballyvourney will make a huge difference and remove what's by far the most dangerous bit as well as a big bottleneck, so it will make a huge difference. The Macroom bypass also has the advantage of covering Kerry voters as well and will be a real help for tourism - obviously if Kerry's easier to get to more people will go there.

Mallow-Croom ideally. Charleville-Croom is no better than Mallow-Charleville, and would also bypass Banogue and O'Rourkes Cross.

I hope they do the actual M20 or nothing, no point in doing half arsed bypass schemes now, just get it done.

Leonard Hofstadter

marno21 wrote: »

I hope they do the actual M20 or nothing, no point in doing half arsed bypass schemes now, just get it done.

OFT. I'm worried that this recent talk about the N72 Mallow bypass won't be the excuse needed to delay the M20 even further. I don't see a need for it to be frank, yes where the N20/N72 intersects can be an absolute nightmare but if the N20 traffic disappears with the motorway that will have a knock on benefit for N72 traffic. It's probably needed eventually, but definitely not before the M20.

I agree Chaleville - Croom bypass isn't a good road either, but at least the bends aren't as bad as between Buttevant and Newtwopothouse and there's no major hold-ups either. But yeah if everywhere north of Mallow (and a bypass of Mallow) were done first that would be great.

FURET

Dunkettle Interchange
N28
N24 Pallasgreen to Cahir
Macroom Bypass

These projects need to be on that list, imo.

AugustusMinimus

From a need point of view:

1. M7 - Naas to M9 junction widening to 3 lanes
2. Dunkettle Interchange
3. N28
4. Adare bypass
5. Macroom bypass
6. M20
7. N24

D Trent

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

From a need point of view:

1. M7 - Naas to M9 junction widening to 3 lanes
2. Dunkettle Interchange
3. N28
4. Slane bypass
5. Adare bypass
6. Macroom bypass
7. M20
8. N24

Fyp

tony1980

3 lanes to M9 junction is badly needed! Sick of sitting in traffic for 45 mins around there, it is absolutely terrible every day.

AugustusMinimus

D Trent wrote: »

Fyp

Which alignment? Navan to Drogheda or on the N2 alignment.

Given its proximity to the M1 wouldn't most traffic avoid the N2 if going past Slane?

tony1980

I would also love to see the M20 go ahead!

AugustusMinimus

Ideally the M9 should have been aligned along the present N81. Too late now though.

Pete_Cavan

The M20 PPP isnt going to happen for a long time. It should be dropped as a PPP and built piecemeal in NRA funded sections. Planning, CPOs, etc. could be done for the whole length and then select sections for tender. Sections could be;

• Blarney - south of Mallow online upgrade
• Mallow bypasses (M20 and N72)
• north of Mallow - north/south of Charleville
• north/south of Charleville - Patrickswell

Individually, some of these sections will probably have a more favourable CBA than the full M20 project. If you strip out the projects which look likely to start in the next two years anyway (N21 Adare bypass, N22 Macroom bypass, N25 New Ross bypass, N28) any of the above projects would wipe the floor with most other national primary project in a comparison. The Mallow bypass would surely jump to the top of list when compared to other similar value projects. Once that is done the online upgrade becomes a no-brainer. The sections north of Mallow are easily justified given the state of the existing road and the number of lives lost on it. Once decoupled from the huge cost of the PPP, it would be very difficult for a government to select another project over these and as sections are completed, it improves the case for the next.