Government Capital Spending on Roads: 2016-2022

spacetweek

marno21 wrote: »

Most estimates for traffic numbers at Dunkettle are ~80/90k daily.

The word earlier in the year was that Dunkettle was priority #1, Macroom next. Lots for Macroom this year and nothing for Dunkettle. Creed must be worried.

Ringaskiddy is still a few years from starting. Dunkettle is ready to go. Dunkettle has a programmed start date of early 2019, whereas M28 won't start til 2021 at least.

Maybe planning for Dunkettle is done so no funding required until 2019 when it starts? Seems odd though.

marno21

spacetweek wrote: »

Maybe planning for Dunkettle is done so no funding required until 2019 when it starts? Seems odd though.

There could be a 2018 start or two going by the level of funding above. I can't see how the shovel ready schemes need another 50m. We could see a tender or two by year end

kub

marno21 wrote: »

Most estimates for traffic numbers at Dunkettle are ~80/90k daily.

The word earlier in the year was that Dunkettle was priority #1, Macroom next. Lots for Macroom this year and nothing for Dunkettle. Creed must be worried.

Ringaskiddy is still a few years from starting. Dunkettle is ready to go. Dunkettle has a programmed start date of early 2019, whereas M28 won't start til 2021 at least.

But surely if Dunkettle was priority 1, surely they would have started funding it, or has it previously been given funding and all the preliminary stuff is done already?

annfield1978

Marno, where is this list of funding published?

Do you work in the dttas?

spacetweek

kub wrote: »

But surely if Dunkettle was priority 1, surely they would have started funding it, or has it previously been given funding and all the preliminary stuff is done already?

I frankly don't believe Dunkettle won't start until 2019, it is already ready! And the idiots won't go ahead with anything else until that one gets going.

marno21

annfield1978 wrote: »

Marno, where is this list of funding published?

Do you work in the dttas?

http://www.tii.ie/tii-library/reports-accounts/

No, I don't work in the DTTAS

spacetweek wrote: »

I frankly don't believe Dunkettle won't start until 2019, it is already ready! And the idiots won't go ahead with anything else until that one gets going.

It'll be a 2018 start if so, there's no funding for it to start in 2017. Alhough the tender to get it to construction phase was put out late last year.

marno21

Breakdown of the national roads funding allocations for Donegal in 2017:

http://www.highlandradio.com/2017/01/13/national-road-funding-to-be-cut-substantially-in-2017-cope/

marno21

http://www.independent.ie/regionals/sligochampion/news/84m-in-funding-for-local-and-regional-roads-35414840.html

300k for the new Garavogue crossing in Sligo and 100k for the Western Distributor Road.

marno21

Today there was a supplement in the Irish Examiner about US FDI in Ireland. Here's an article about the horseshie state of the Cork road network and how it'll negatively impact investment in the Cork area.

Leonard Hofstadter

Unfortunately Infrastructure spending is not deemed important by vast swathes of the electorate, they'd much rather their tax cuts and dole hikes over stuff that will actually help the Government to pay for the things the electorate want in the long run, and as the busybodies objecting to the M28 show, plenty of people will find an excuse to complain about something even when you try to fix problems.

Not disagreeing with the premise of your article, though - the M28 is probably the most important piece of infrastructure for Cork's prosperity after making Dunkettle freeflow and let's be honest, Cork has third world road connections to everywhere bar Dublin.

sondagefaux

A more rational list for motorways/HQDCs (in no particular order):
East Coast Motorway/HQDC: from southern end of M11 Enniscorthy bypass to Rosslare Harbour

Western Motorway/HQDC: Ringaskiddy - Cork - Limerick - Galway - Sligo - Letterkenny - Derry

Border Motorway/HQDC: Sligo - Cavan - Dundalk (improves connectivity within the state along the 'southern' section of the border, which will be even more necessary post-Brexit)

Kerry Motorways/HQDCs: Tralee - Foynes - Limerick & Tralee - Killarney - Cork

M24/N24: Limerick - Waterford

M25/N25: Cork - Waterford - Rosslare Harbour

Midlands Motorways/HQDC: Southern Section: roughly following line of current N80 from its junction with N11 north of Enniscorthy (soon to be M11) as far as junction with N52 Tullamore bypass, then roughly following line of N52 north to junction with M6. Northern Section: northwards from M6 near Kilbeggan to current N55 near Edgeworthstown, then following roughly line of N55 from there to Cavan town, then roughly following line of R212 from near Cavan town to Clones, then roughly following N54 from Clones to near Monaghan town. 

M2 (north)/A5(M) - upgrade N33 from M1 to Ardee to DC, then m'wy/HQDC from Ardee to Monaghan town to near Ballygawley (connects with A4 dual-carriageway/Northern Ireland M1 towards Belfast), then continued to Derry to connect with Ringaskiddy - Cork - Limerick - Galway - Sligo - Letterkenny - Derry route.

M3 northern extension - from Kells to Cavan town (connects with Northern M2/A5 (M), border route and northern section of midlands route (and ultimately to Monaghan - Derry m'way/HQDC)

M4/N4 extension - from Mullingar bypass to Sligo town (M'way/HQDC)

New N5 route - N5 to start near Castlebaldwin (instead of at Longford town) then head southwest towards Charlestown, then upgrade on/near existing route to Westport.

N60 - from Claremorris to Castlebar - upgrade to DC, connect with upgraded N17 (or even M17) section of Western Motorway/HQDC

Capacity/Junction improvements to M1/M4/N7/M7/M8 as required

IMO, those routes are all the Motorways/HQDC routes that the state will require for the next 50 years or more. 

Improving the routes to Co. Donegal is essential if it's not to become even more isolated from the rest of the state once customs controls are introduced along the border (inevitable under EU law because of the UK's decision to leave the EU's Customs Union). 

There may be a requirement for sections of 2+2 dual-carriageways on sections of some other routes but in the main all other important routes (remaining sections of national primary routes, national secondary routes and key regional routes*) should be either maintained as/upgraded to good quality single-carriageways, generally with wider lanes and with hard shoulders where feasible, climbing/passing lanes as required, turning lanes, bypasses and relief roads of most towns and villages along their routes, better junctions (at grade roundabouts will do in most cases for junctions with other national/key regional roads), high-quality road markings, high-quality road surfaces and high-quality ignposting.

*Regional roads were originally going to sub-divided into regional primary roads and regional secondary roads, similarly to the sub-division of national roads into national primary roads and national secondary roads, although the road numbering system for regional roads and their colouring on OSI maps wasn't going to show this. Most regional roads that were originally going to be regional primary roads, along with national roads that have been re-classified as regional roads (mainly former national primary roads that have been bypassed by motorways) and some newer or regional roads (e.g the southern section of the Waterford city bypass), should be improved as required to the same standard as non-motorway/DC national roads. As an example of the quality aimed for, the Tullamore bypass section of the current N52 would be a good example or the improved sections of the N86 on the Dingle peninsula. 

For all other roads, instead of wasteful duplication of resources by local councils, set up regional units under the aegis of TII to improve and maintain less important regional and all local roads.

Each region could be based on the regional road numbers; i.e. Region 1 would cover all the regional and local roads within the R1XX cluster area, Region 2 would cover all the regional and local roads within the R2XX cluster area and so on.  Obviously R8XX and R9XX roads would be covered by the appropriate regional unit. TII would have greater purchasing power if it was negotiating national or regional contracts for services, materials and labour than each council doing its own thing. 

Local councils could still have budgets to make improvements or carry out repairs that they considered needed to be prioritised if TII didn't do the work in the time frame that suited local needs.
This model seems to work well in Northern Ireland where the Roads Service is responsible for all public roads in co-operation with local councils.

spacetweek

I added up some numbers quickly and this is the amount of DC we need :

N24 101 km
M20 96 km
N25 67 km
N22 42 (half SC, half dual)
N15 40 km
N17 37 km
N13 36 km
N21 33 km


As you can see the N24 has the largest DC backlog followed closely by the famous M20.

marno21

spacetweek wrote: »

I added up some numbers quickly and this is the amount of DC we need :

N24 101 km
M20 96 km
N25 67 km
N22 42 (half SC, half dual)
N15 40 km
N17 37 km
N13 36 km
N21 33 km


As you can see the N24 has the largest DC backlog followed closely by the famous M20.

How much of the N22 are you planning on dualling? In reality Farranfore-Cork has high enough numbers for dualling.

The N21 needs dualling from Abbeyfeale to Limerick also.

The N71 needs dualling from Cork to Bandon more than the N24.

Also don't forget the N40 Cork NRR.

spacetweek

OK, I left out small bits like Cork NRR and I was working on the assumption that schemes like Limerick-Rathkeale and Ballyvourney-Macroom are in the bag since they've already been committed to.

I was referring to long stretches that haven't really been committed to.

I also left out the N2 since most of the work there is on the NI side.

Just to put my list in perspective, it adds up to about 400+ km of 2+2. During the boom years we completed about 700 km of full motorway in only about 6 years, so this should be easily doable if we pumped up the annual road budget for another 6.

marno21

spacetweek wrote: »

OK, I left out small bits like Cork NRR and I was working on the assumption that schemes like Limerick-Rathkeale and Ballyvourney-Macroom are in the bag since they've already been committed to.

I was referring to long stretches that haven't really been committed to.

I also left out the N2 since most of the work there is on the NI side.

Just to put my list in perspective, it adds up to about 400+ km of 2+2. During the boom years we completed about 700 km of full motorway in only about 6 years, so this should be easily doable if we pumped up the annual road budget for another 6.

I presume on the N22 you mean Macroom-Ovens & Killarney-Farranfore sections, both of which are good calls.

It'd also help if we used a mixture of central funding & PPPs. The backlog could be cleared in no time if the will was there. Sadly Shane Ross has other issues to be dealing with like the incredibly national transport related issue of Stepaside Garda Station.

serfboard

marno21 wrote: »

Sadly Shane Ross has other issues to be dealing with like the incredibly national transport related issue of Stepaside Garda Station.

Yes indeed - Ross would rather deal with anything except transport.

He wasn't appointed by Donald Trump, by any chance?

sondagefaux

serfboard wrote: »

marno21 wrote: »

Sadly Shane Ross has other issues to be dealing with like the incredibly national transport related issue of Stepaside Garda Station.

Yes indeed - Ross would rather deal with anything except transport.

He wasn't appointed by Donald Trump, by any chance?

Improving transport infrastructure is one of the most popular potential uses of public funds. S[font=Georgia, "Times New Roman", Times, serif]pending more money on capital investment, on roads, schools and hospitals, is the first and second priority for 63% of those polled for this poll in December.[/font]

[font=Georgia, "Times New Roman", Times, serif]Get on with it Irish government [/font]

[font=Georgia, "Times New Roman", Times, serif]In the last three years Ireland has moved from a position where the choices were about where to cut spending to one where the Government has to decide where to apply modest increases in spending. If anything, the competition for resources is even fiercer in the new environment. Sometimes having a little to spend is harder for a government than having nothing at all.[/font]

[font=Georgia, "Times New Roman", Times, serif]Today’s Irish Times/Ipsos MRBI opinion poll offers an insight into the preferences of voters about where the extra resources generated by economic growth should be allocated.
[/font]
[font=Georgia, "Times New Roman", Times, serif]The clear preference of voters is for capital spending on such things as roads, schools and hospitals, and for the recruitment of more public servants such as gardaí, teachers and nurses.[/font]
[font=Georgia, "Times New Roman", Times, serif]
By a significant margin they prefer these options to the others offered, namely increasing welfare payments, reducing tax/USC and increasing public sector pay.

...

Offered the option of increasing public sector pay, just 6 per cent of respondents who expressed a preference said that it should be the Government’s first priority; just 8 per cent said it should be the second priority.

...

offered the option of recruiting more gardaí, teachers and nurses, 27 per cent said it should be the first priority, while a further 30 per cent said it should be the Government’s second priority.

...

The most popular choice for the Government’s first preference was increasing capital spending on roads, schools and hospitals, with 35 per cent nominating it. A further 28 per cent said it should be the second priority.
[/font]
[font=Georgia, "Times New Roman", Times, serif]Just 14 per cent wanted the Government to increase welfare payments as the first priority, while 18 per cent preferred tax cuts.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/irish-times-poll-suggests-shift-to-left-in-public-opinion-1.2898507

[/font]

marno21

€1bn available for the Athy Southern Distributor Road in 2017.

Shane Ross wrote:

​As I already stated in my response to Parliamentary Question No. 268 of 25 January 2016 to the Deputy, the improvement and maintenance of regional and local roads, such as the Athy Distributor Road, is the statutory responsibility of Kildare County Council, in accordance with the provisions of Section 13 of the Roads Act 1993. Works on those roads are funded from the Council's own resources supplemented by State road grants.

The Capital Plan 2016-2021 provides that a number of schemes, including the Athy Distributor Road, targeting bottlenecks in the road network will be progressed subject to necessary approvals. In this context the project has to meet the requirements of the Public Spending Code and my Department's Common Appraisal Framework for Transport Projects as well as obtaining planning approval. It is a matter for Kildare County Council to progress the scheme through the approval process.

In relation to the project appraisal process, the Council has submitted the project Business Case and Cost Benefit Analysis (CBA) documentation for consideration by my Department. Consideration of the project appraisal documentation involves a number of steps. As the project has an estimated cost in excess of €20 million, my Department's Economic and Financial Evaluation Unit in liaison with the Central Expenditure and Evaluation Unit (CEEU) in the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform will need to review the CBA for compliance with the Public Spending Code and my Department's Common Appraisal Framework. The overall Business Case will then need approval.

The project appraisal procedure will be progressed as soon as possible taking into account available resources.

I have made €1 million available to progress this project as part of 2017 Regional and Local Roads Grants.

sondagefaux

marno21 wrote: »

€1bn available for the Athy Southern Distributor Road in 2017.

Shane Ross wrote:

As I already stated in my response to Parliamentary Question No. 268 of 25 January 2016 to the Deputy, the improvement and maintenance of regional and local roads, such as the Athy Distributor Road, is the statutory responsibility of Kildare County Council, in accordance with the provisions of Section 13 of the Roads Act 1993. Works on those roads are funded from the Council's own resources supplemented by State road grants.

The Capital Plan 2016-2021 provides that a number of schemes, including the Athy Distributor Road, targeting bottlenecks in the road network will be progressed subject to necessary approvals. In this context the project has to meet the requirements of the Public Spending Code and my Department's Common Appraisal Framework for Transport Projects as well as obtaining planning approval. It is a matter for Kildare County Council to progress the scheme through the approval process.

In relation to the project appraisal process, the Council has submitted the project Business Case and Cost Benefit Analysis (CBA) documentation for consideration by my Department. Consideration of the project appraisal documentation involves a number of steps. As the project has an estimated cost in excess of €20 million, my Department's Economic and Financial Evaluation Unit in liaison with the Central Expenditure and Evaluation Unit (CEEU) in the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform will need to review the CBA for compliance with the Public Spending Code and my Department's Common Appraisal Framework. The overall Business Case will then need approval.

The project appraisal procedure will be progressed as soon as possible taking into account available resources.

I have made €1 million available to progress this project as part of  2017 Regional and Local Roads Grants.

€1bn? Wow! :P

marno21

Talks over on SSC that Enda will get a formal CPO and ABP hearing for the N5 Ballaghaderreen-Scramogue scheme expedited before he calls it a day in the next few months ago. Enda's work on the N5 will put the Flynn Expressway to shame with the Ballaghaderreen & Longford bypasses and the Westport-Turlough DC starting in 2019.

It'll be great now we'll spend 200m on a road carrying 4500 vehicles a day through rural Co. Roscommon whilst we have no money for a motorway between the second and third cities, or a variety of other schemes.

D Trent

marno21 wrote: »

Talks over on SSC that Enda will get a formal CPO and ABP hearing for the N5 Ballaghaderreen-Scramogue scheme expedited before he calls it a day in the next few months ago. Enda's work on the N5 will put the Flynn Expressway to shame with the Ballaghaderreen & Longford bypasses and the Westport-Turlough DC starting in 2019.

It'll be great now we'll spend 200m on a road carrying 4500 vehicles a day through rural Co. Roscommon whilst we have no money for a motorway between the second and third cities, or a variety of other schemes.

Explain what SSC is

marno21

D Trent wrote: »

Explain what SSC is

Apologies, skyscrapercity.

www.skyscrapercity.com/forumdisplay.php?f=4016

MayoSalmon

marno21 wrote:

It'll be great now we'll spend 200m on a road carrying 4500 vehicles a day through rural Co. Roscommon whilst we have no money for a motorway between the second and third cities, or a variety of other schemes.

Ah fair feckin play to him!!

spacetweek

I do think the N5 has justified the major investment it's received and will receive, so it's more a pity the way everyone pits the M20 against the N5 as if we could only have one instead of both like it should be

marno21

spacetweek wrote: »

I do think the N5 has justified the major investment it's received and will receive, so it's more a pity the way everyone pits the M20 against the N5 as if we could only have one instead of both like it should be

That's the problem, one instead of both is what we do have.

I have no problem with the N5 being upgraded, in fact I think it should be, but:

1. The N5 is one of the quietest national primaries in the country.
2. Since 2011, there have been less than 10 schemes completed. 2 of those are on the N5. There are 9 national primary schemes in the capital investment plan. Again, 1 on the N5. The N5 may be ****e but it's not the only terrible road. There are far bigger fish to fry than the N5 which are getting total ignorance at the minute.

Again, since 2011, there has been a major improvement in N5 journey times and no improvement elsewhere. There has been no major improvement on the N20, N21, N22, N23 or N24 since 2006, bar the new access route to Tralee on the N22 and the Castleisland bypass. A total of 4km of DC and 9km of SC. In the same time, 16km of N5 has been done. Whilst the N5 is important, upgrades need a bit of spreading around.

The reason the M20 is constantly brought up is a lot of the N20 is at the same poor standard as the N5, has more fatalities, and instead of the road between the second and third cities being upgraded it's a road through rural Co. Roscommon that connects Dublin with two small towns on the west coast. We need to look at the bigger picture here.

I know people from Mayo, Roscommon and Longford will disagree but anyhow. The roads program since FG came in has been very kind to the N5.

MayoSalmon

Look the fact that the 2nd and 3rd biggest towns in Ireland haven't got a motorway connection yet while nearly everywhere else is getting upgraded is purely down to inept politicans in Cork etc. Funds don't come into this really and it's similar to the Galway bypass in this regard

Calina

MayoSalmon wrote: »

Look the fact that the 2nd and 3rd biggest towns in Ireland haven't got a motorway connection yet while nearly everywhere else is getting upgraded is purely down to inept politicans in Cork etc. Funds don't come into this really and it's similar to the Galway bypass in this regard

Politics should not becoming into it. It is for that we have a national roads authority. Basic roads infrastructure shoukd not be dictated by who happens to be Taoiseach and where he or she comes from. The only infrastructure projects he should be dealing with are big international ones like tunnels or hyperloops to France so we can bypass the UK post Brexit.

sondagefaux

New roads to bypass west Dublin/M50 congestion needed by 2023:

Major roads in west Dublin, including the M50, the N4 and the N7, will become even more choked with traffic by 2023 unless new infrastructure is put in place, according to a report from Transport Infrastructure Ireland (TII).

The report, which looked at the N4/N7 corridor area, forecasts increased congestion and worsening delays at junctions on both local and national roads.

“Although there are significant committed road infrastructure investments in the study area that will have occurred in the time period 2013 to 2023, the performance of the road network will diminish by 2023,” the report stated.

“The National Road network will experience substantial increases in travel time and delay by 2023 with the M50 being worst affected while the N4 and N7 are also affected, albeit to a lesser (although still significant) extent.”

South Dublin County Council’s transportation committee was recently told by TII that a series of local junction upgrades and road schemes would need to be carried out for further traffic congestion to be avoided.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/west-dublin-facing-choking-road-capacity-issues-by-2023-1.2981015?utm_content=sf-man

marno21

Since the last update 3 months ago, unsurprisingly we've had very little movement in any of these schemes.

Anyway.. maybe we'll see more life when the review of the plan happens shortly. Nothing of interest has happened since the plan was announced as you can see below.

Here's an update on all schemes announced in the plan:

Road schemes:

N4 Collooney-Castlebaldwin:
Advance works continue on this, with consultants being appointed to carry this through to the construction stage.
Expected start: 2019
Expected opening: 2021

N5 Westport-Turlough:
Fencing is ongoing and all advanced works are complete. Tender has also gone out for consultants to carry this to the construction stage.
Expected start: 2019
Expected opening: 2021

M7 Naas/Newbridge Bypass Upgrade:
This is at the tender stage with tenders being taken until May. This is confirmed for a 2017 start and will take 3 years to complete
Expected start: 2017
Expected opening (in full): 2020

N8/N25/N40 Dunkettle Interchange:
This is shovel ready with consultants being appointed to carry this through the processes. PIN for tender has gone out.
Expected start: 2019
Expected opening: 2021

N22 Ballyvourney/Macroom BP:
Advanced works on this will be done during 2017. Fencing, archaeology and utility diversions. Latest confirmed date is Q1 2020, although with the amount of funding allocated for 2017 it could start earlier.
Expected start: 2020
Expected opening: 2022

N56 Mountcharles - Inver:
2.5km of this scheme is to start in 2017. The remaining 2.4km is unknown at this point in time.
Expected start: 2017
Expected opening: 2020

N56 Dungloe - Glenties:
Phase II opened January 2017 with Phase III to start in 2017.
Expected completion: 2019

N59 Moycullen BP:
Completely shovel ready and ready to tender but waiting for funding.
Expected start: 2019
Expected opening: 2021

Road schemes pending planning:
N2 Slane BP:
At very early stage of procurement of consultants, a long way away yet.
Expected start: 2021
Expected opening: 2023

N6 Galway City Ring Road:
Final design being published in April. Funding remains a major issue with the scheme costing €593m.
Expected start: 2021
Expected opening (in full): 2024/5

M21 Adare BP & Limerick-Foynes:
To be presented to ABP in 2017. Design update expected in April/May.
Expected start: 2021
Expected opening (in full): 2024

M28 Cork-Ringaskiddy:
EIS & Motorway Order expected very soon. However, objections from locals supported by Government party members may cause delays.
Expected start: 2021
Expected opening: 2023

N72 Mallow Relief Road:
Will likely be bundled in with future M20 plans. Currently at feasibility study stage
Expected start: 2023
Expected opening: 2024

Funding remains a huge issue in the roadbuilding sector.

marno21

The results of the Mid Term Capital Plan review will be published in September.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/donohoe-to-decide-additions-to-infrastructure-plan-in-september-1.3032742