Government Capital Spending on Roads: 2016-2022

spacetweek

marno21 wrote: »

TII allocations for 2018:

Hi Marno, did you get all the above by checking each county council's allocation list?

marno21

spacetweek wrote: »

Hi Marno, did you get all the above by checking each county council's allocation list?

I did indeed. Thankfully I can type fast..

Schemes such as Tralee-Dingle have their branch schemes included in their allocation.

Forgot to include the money for the N40 -> M40 reclassification.

lucernarian

spacetweek wrote: »

Why would cycling be banned? The new road will be a dual carriageway, not a motorway as Leo and some others are mistakenly saying.

There's a big difference between a 2+2 and a type 1 DC. I understand that what's being proposed for N2 Ardee-Clontibret is a retrofit 2+2.

I never mentioned it being a motorway scheme anyway? It seems quite dangerous to have a road with a 100kph speed limit, free-flowing traffic and no place for pedestrians to walk or cyclists to cycle. So the reference to cycling being banned is tongue in cheek, figured that would be obvious to the more experienced posters here

lucernarian

roadmaster wrote: »

Regularly travel that road between ardee and monaghan town and it is always busy Any work that will improve safety and reduce the risk of head on collisions I welcome. It's only going to be Type 2 so locals won't have access affected badly as there will be new side roads and roundabouts every 5km give or take to allow for major junctions

My point is how am I or supposed to cycle or walk to/from Ardee if the hard shoulder is removed? Some sort of segregated pathway would absolutely be fine, but this would involve CPOs. So would providing side access roads and the likes, but it turns into something more than a retrofit design.

But the shocking state of the R17x roads should be a higher focus, and the N2 route has already been entirely upgraded/realigned since 1993 from Ardee onwards. So many other accident blackspots have far inferior roads and long suffering people in the likes of Donegal deserve safer roads (the N13 for instance has a woeful safety record, and regionally the N53 has had fatal accidents though the road is being improved piecemeal on the Louth end).

Middle Man

lucernarian wrote: »

There's a big difference between a 2+2 and a type 2 DC. I understand that what's being proposed for N2 Ardee-Clontibret is a retrofit 2+2.

I never mentioned it being a motorway scheme anyway? It seems quite dangerous to have a road with a 100kph speed limit, free-flowing traffic and no place for pedestrians to walk or cyclists to cycle. So the reference to cycling being banned is tongue in cheek, figured that would be obvious to the more experienced posters here

'2+2' is a term that derived from '2+1' and hence, was the original term for Type 2 Dual. In fact, '2+1' is now referred to as 'Type 3 Dual' even though that standard is now practically unused.

lucernarian

Middle Man wrote: »

'2+2' is a term that derived from '2+1' and hence, was the original term for Type 2 Dual. In fact, '2+1' is now referred to as 'Type 3 Dual' even though that standard is now practically unused.

Isn't type 1 also known as HQDC? I wasn't sure on whether a hard shoulder dual carriageway like N3 Clonee bypass was type 1 or 2.

marno21

lucernarian wrote: »

Isn't type 1 also known as HQDC? I wasn't sure on whether a hard shoulder dual carriageway like N3 Clonee bypass was type 1 or 2.

Type 1 - HQDC (may be designated motorway) - 2x 3.65m lanes, 1x 2.5m hard shoulder, concrete central median

Type 2 - 2+2 - 2x 3.5m lanes, 0.5m hard strip, narrow central median

Type 3 - 2+1 - 2x3.5m lanes/1x 3.5m lane alternating every 2km; 1m hard shoulder (this varies depending on route especially retrofitted sections)

marno21

lucernarian wrote: »

My point is how am I or supposed to cycle or walk to/from Ardee if the hard shoulder is removed? Some sort of segregated pathway would absolutely be fine, but this would involve CPOs. So would providing side access roads and the likes, but it turns into something more than a retrofit design.

But the shocking state of the R17x roads should be a higher focus, and the N2 route has already been entirely upgraded/realigned since 1993 from Ardee onwards. So many other accident blackspots have far inferior roads and long suffering people in the likes of Donegal deserve safer roads (the N13 for instance has a woeful safety record, and regionally the N53 has had fatal accidents though the road is being improved piecemeal on the Louth end).

There were several fatal collisions on the N2 this year; and it's a busy road. It's a priority for upgrading. The A5 through NI will also be upgraded in the full when the Unionist "environmentalists" stop objecting to it.

In Donegal, the entire N14 is being upgraded, along with the N13 dual carriageway to make it safer. Besides that in Donegal, the N56 is now being upgraded in 3 separate spots, and the Ballybofey bypass is being progressed.

The parts of the N2 with accesses and side roads will have parallel access roads built. The straight offline sections will be integrated into the 2+2

Middle Man

marno21 wrote: »

Type 1 - HQDC (may be designated motorway) - 2x 3.65m lanes, 1x 2.5m hard shoulder, concrete central median

Type 2 - 2+2 - 2x 3.5m lanes, 0.5m hard strip, narrow central median

Type 3 - 2+1 - 2x3.5m lanes/1x 3.5m lane alternating every 2km; 1m hard shoulder (this varies depending on route especially retrofitted sections)

Have the Dual Type 1 lane widths been changed?

They were 3.5m up to very recently.

spacetweek

marno21 wrote: »

Forgot to include the money for the N40 -> M40 reclassification.

What?? Where did you get this info from?

marno21

spacetweek wrote: »

What?? Where did you get this info from?

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/post/105759384

2018 Cork County allocations. TII applied for money in Capital Plan review for N40/M40 Demand Management funding. This likely part of it

AugustusMinimus

Middle Man wrote: »

marno21 wrote: »

Type 1 - HQDC (may be designated motorway) - 2x 3.65m lanes, 1x 2.5m hard shoulder, concrete central median

Type 2 - 2+2 - 2x 3.5m lanes, 0.5m hard strip, narrow central median

Type 3 - 2+1 - 2x3.5m lanes/1x 3.5m lane alternating every 2km; 1m hard shoulder (this varies depending on route especially retrofitted sections)

Have the Dual Type 1 lane widths been changed?

They were 3.5m up to very recently.

There’s a 3.65m and a 3.5m specification I think.

Middle Man

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

There’s a 3.65m and a 3.5m specification I think.

The standard hasn't changed as far as I can see...

http://www.tiipublications.ie/library/CC-SCD-00007-06.pdf

The document linked above is dated June 2017.

Middle Man

About the N31 Blackrock Bypass, the relevant standards are as follow:

http://www.tiipublications.ie/library/CC-SCD-00014-02.pdf

Yes, 3.5m lanes for a Dual Carriageway Urban Relief Road - the lane widths on the Blackrock Bypass are only 3.0m - what's going on there??? Those standards are dated October 2013! In case anyone says that this is not a main urban dual carriageway, well here's the standards for Urban D2...

http://www.tiipublications.ie/library/CC-SCD-00015-02.pdf

and Urban D3...

http://www.tiipublications.ie/library/CC-SCD-00016-02.pdf

marno21

The review of the Capital Plan has been published and there has been a €486m in spending on Roads.

The following projects will now be included:

* Sligo Western Distributor Road (Phase 1 complete, this phase will complete the connection from the R292 Strandhill Road to the N4)
* Tralee Northern Relief Road (links the Bracker O'Regan Road over to the R878 Oakpark Rd near ITT, the old N69, which connects to the N69 Tralee bypass)
* R498 Letteragh realignment (realignment of several km of road on the Nenagh-Thurles road which is in such a bad state that it's at risk of collapse)
* Killaloe bypass/R494 upgrade (this is finally going to happen)
* Limerick Northern Distributor Phase 1: Coonagh to Knockalisheen (another very beneficial scheme)
* N69 Listowel bypass

Other projects

* Implementation of variable speed limits on the M50
* Energy reduction programme - reducing energy consumption on the national road network
* Package of resillience and community involvement measures on regional/national roads
* M11 capacity enhancements, beginning with work on the N11 at Kilmacanogue
* Minor realignment works, of which 9 will start in 2018, and several others progressed through planning
* Planning and design of a new road from Cork to Limerick
* Appraisal and prioritisation of new national roads projects (the three seemingly at the top of the pile are the 2x N2 schemes in Monaghan/Louth and the N4 Mullingar-Longford)
* A5 Phase 1: Newbuildings to Strabane

The following projects will begin construction over the course of the 2018-2021 period:

* N4 Collooney to Castlebaldwin (Q4 2018)
* N5 Westport to Turlough (Q1 2021 at latest)
* N8/N25/N40 Dunkettle Interchange (Q1 2019)
* N22 Macroom-Ballyvourney (Q4 2019/Q1 2020)
* N59 Moycullen bypass (2021)
* N78 Athy Southern Distributor Road
* Laytown-Bettystown spine road
* New Garavogue bridge and approach roads in Sligo
* Portlaoise Southern Distributor Road
* Dingle Relief Road Phase 4

Design work will continue on 5 projects to get them shovel ready by 2021:

* N2 Slane bypass (route selection - several routes announced)
* N6 Galway City Ring Road (planning submission Q1 2018)
* M21 Limerick - Rathkeale & Foynes (planning submission Q1 2018)
* M28 Cork-Ringaskiddy (planning decision pending)
* N72 Mallow relief road (route selection - several routes announced)

http://www.dttas.ie/press-releases/2018/minister-announces-enhanced-roads-investment-%E2%82%AC486m-following-capital-review

marno21

The above is nice to see - however my one question is - where does this tie in with the new Capital Plan?

We have funding for the shovel ready projects to all be at the worst under construction by 2021. The shovel ready Listowel and Ardee bypasses are to start in 2018/2019. The remaining shovel ready projects with planning, Westport-Mulranny, Tralee-Dingle and Dungloe-Glenties are being done on a phased basis.

Beyond that, we have a very limited pipeline of projects. By 2021, assuming there is no planning decisions rejected, we will have the following ready to go:

* N2 Slane bypass
* N5 Ballaghaderreen-Scramoge
* N6 Galway City Ring Road
* M21 Limerick-Rathkeale-Foynes
* M28 Cork-Ringaskiddy
* N72 Mallow relief road.

I believe the Mallow relief road will be held back and built as part of the planned Cork-Limerick route, leaving 5 standalone projects.

Beyond that, we have a number of projects in early planning but unless these are funded they won't be shovel ready until around 2023.

The new Capital Plan badly needs to make an allowance to get these projects to the shovel ready stage, especially given how slow planning permission takes in Ireland. The M28 will spend a full year with An Bord Pleanala. I anticipate the N6 Galway scheme will take even longer. To me it should be top priority in the new Capital Plan otherwise 2021-2025 will be very quiet on the construction front.

sdanseo

These schemes are taking too long to procure. Conception to planning approval should not be taking more than 18 months.

Schemes of major national importance (National Primary) - especially the likes of M20 / Cork NRR / Limerick NRR / Galway Ring - should be fasttracked in the same way as all this hype about data centres - legislate for major national infrastructure and remove the frankly stupid ability for anyone outside a 10km radius of the route to object - and pushed to the top of the list.

From a construction standpoint, I wouldn't imagine they care about planning permission at all - China can build a 1,000km motorway in under a year.

We can't even open a service station in under half a decade.

And roads remain our beacon, the success story.

it's absolutely abysmal.

sondagefaux

sdanseo wrote: »

These schemes are taking too long to procure. Conception to planning approval should not be taking more than 18 months.

Schemes of major national importance (National Primary) - especially the likes of M20 / Cork NRR / Limerick NRR / Galway Ring - should be fasttracked in the same way as all this hype about data centres - legislate for major national infrastructure and remove the frankly stupid ability for anyone outside a 10km radius of the route to object - and pushed to the top of the list.

From a construction standpoint, I wouldn't imagine they care about planning permission at all - China can build a 1,000km motorway in under a year.

We can't even open a service station in under half a decade.

And roads remain our beacon, the success story.

it's absolutely abysmal.

China is a dictatorship with no respect for human rights, and no respect for the environment.

As frustrated as I often am by some of the more stupid challenges to new road projects, and the consequent slowing down of the process, looking to China as an example of good practice in anything is a joke.

Ireland is a democracy and in a democracy, people get to peacefully disagree with the state.

If that means Ireland builds roads much more slowly than in China, so be it.

Democracy is a lot more important than roads.

AugustusMinimus

sondagefaux wrote: »

sdanseo wrote: »

These schemes are taking too long to procure. Conception to planning approval should not be taking more than 18 months.

Schemes of major national importance (National Primary) - especially the likes of M20 / Cork NRR / Limerick NRR / Galway Ring - should be fasttracked in the same way as all this hype about data centres - legislate for major national infrastructure and remove the frankly stupid ability for anyone outside a 10km radius of the route to object - and pushed to the top of the list.

From a construction standpoint, I wouldn't imagine they care about planning permission at all - China can build a 1,000km motorway in under a year.

We can't even open a service station in under half a decade.

And roads remain our beacon, the success story.

it's absolutely abysmal.

China is a dictatorship with no respect for human rights, and no respect for the environment.

As frustrated as I often am by some of the more stupid challenges to new road projects, and the consequent slowing down of the process, looking to China as an example of good practice in anything is a joke.

Ireland is a democracy and in a democracy, people get to peacefully disagree with the state.

If that means Ireland builds roads much more slowly than in China, so be it.

Democracy is a lot more important than roads.

Say that to those who have lost loved ones as some NIMBY holds up a project indefinitely for no real reason.

The planning laws in this country definitely need to be looked at.

jspuds

Does anybody know if there are more works planned for the N11?

* M11 capacity enhancements, beginning with work on the N11 at Kilmacanogue

joujoujou

sondagefaux wrote: »

[...]

Democracy is a lot more important than roads.

Well, I have a strong feeling plenty of voters living far away from polling stations would strongly disagree.

OK, jokes aside:

sdanseo wrote: »

These schemes are taking too long to procure. Conception to planning approval should not be taking more than 18 months.

Schemes of major national importance (National Primary) - especially the likes of M20 / Cork NRR / Limerick NRR / Galway Ring - should be fasttracked in the same way as all this hype about data centres - legislate for major national infrastructure and remove the frankly stupid ability for anyone outside a 10km radius of the route to object - and pushed to the top of the list.

666% right.

sdanseo wrote: »

From a construction standpoint, I wouldn't imagine they care about planning permission at all - China can build a 1,000km motorway in under a year.

[...]

Apart from (as mentioned just above) Chinese approach to environment, human rights etc. one more doubt came straight to my mind - how many years would that kind of "instant motorways" last?

snotboogie

joujoujou wrote: »

sondagefaux wrote: »

[...]

Democracy is a lot more important than roads.

Well, I have a strong feeling plenty of voters living far away from polling stations would strongly disagree.

OK, jokes aside:

sdanseo wrote: »

These schemes are taking too long to procure. Conception to planning approval should not be taking more than 18 months.

Schemes of major national importance (National Primary) - especially the likes of M20 / Cork NRR / Limerick NRR / Galway Ring - should be fasttracked in the same way as all this hype about data centres - legislate for major national infrastructure and remove the frankly stupid ability for anyone outside a 10km radius of the route to object - and pushed to the top of the list.

666% right.

sdanseo wrote: »

From a construction standpoint, I wouldn't imagine they care about planning permission at all - China can build a 1,000km motorway in under a year.

[...]

Apart from (as mentioned just above) Chinese approach to environment, human rights etc. one more doubt came straight to my mind - how many years would that kind of "instant motorways" last?

One of my colleagues from Beijing is a multi millionaire from a forced land sale for an infrastructure project. He got way above market value for his home. While the planning regulations are a lot lighter over there this idea that the Chinese Govt lackadaisically bulldoze all and sunder with no consequences is not true either, at least not in the major cities...

Reuben1210

jspuds wrote: »

Does anybody know if there are more works planned for the N11?

* M11 capacity enhancements, beginning with work on the N11 at Kilmacanogue

I was wondering the same, and surely it has to start with the two service stations being blocked off from the motorway.....surely!

marno21

Discussion on the M11/N11 upgrade here:

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057631449&page=3

spacetweek

Marno are you sure about the N5 Westport not starting until 2021 now? I thought that one was shovel ready and was heading for a 2019 start.
Also 2021 for Moycullen seems like a long time for such a small project.

marno21

spacetweek wrote: »

Marno are you sure about the N5 Westport not starting until 2021 now? I thought that one was shovel ready and was heading for a 2019 start.
Also 2021 for Moycullen seems like a long time for such a small project.

The Capital Plan pre-review had 2021 starts for both Westport-Turlough and the Moycullen bypass.

DTTAS applied for funding to accelerate both projects (which would actually give savings on both) in the Capital Plan review but there was no mention of whether this was granted in the above announcement and I haven't heard that they've been accelerated since.

Both projects are shovel ready, in fact the Moycullen bypass tender documents have been sitting in a filing cabinet for several years but the funding strangle continues.

sondagefaux

lucernarian wrote: »

spacetweek wrote: »

Why would cycling be banned? The new road will be a dual carriageway, not a motorway as Leo and some others are mistakenly saying.

There's a big difference between a 2+2 and a type 1 DC. I understand that what's being proposed for N2 Ardee-Clontibret is a retrofit 2+2.

I never mentioned it being a motorway scheme anyway? It seems quite dangerous to have a road with a 100kph speed limit, free-flowing traffic and no place for pedestrians to walk or cyclists to cycle. So the reference to cycling being banned is tongue in cheek, figured that would be obvious to the more experienced posters here

Pedestrians and cyclists are banned from French Routes Nationales, even if they are single carriageway.

The speed limit on French rural single carriageway roads in dry weather is 90km/h, to be reduced to 80km/h from 1st July.

More information in this article:

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-5255635/Speed-limit-lowered-250-000-miles-French-roads.html

KevR

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Say that to those who have lost loved ones as some NIMBY holds up a project indefinitely for no real reason.

The planning laws in this country definitely need to be looked at.

Agree.

When people are making the counter argument about being able to object as a human right because we are a democracy - at what point does commuter's quality of life come into it (from a human right and democracy point of view)?

We have tens of thousands of people spending unnecessary extra time commuting due to crap transport infrastructure. Often stressed. For some people this prolonged daily stress can lead to health implications.
With better infrastructure they could spend more time with their families, enjoying life, with reduced stress.

With our current planning system, many thousands of people in favour of a given scheme can be made to face continued suffering day in day out because a handful of people don't want the scheme - what is democratic about that?

sondagefaux

KevR wrote: »

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Say that to those who have lost loved ones as some NIMBY holds up a project indefinitely for no real reason.

The planning laws in this country definitely need to be looked at.

Agree.

When people are making the counter argument about being able to object as a human right because we are a democracy - at what point does commuter's quality of life come into it (from a human right and democracy point of view)?

We have tens of thousands of people spending unnecessary extra time commuting due to crap transport infrastructure. Often stressed. For some people this prolonged daily stress can lead to health implications.
With better infrastructure they could spend more time with their families, enjoying life, with reduced stress.

With our current planning system, many thousands of people in favour of a given scheme can be made to face continued suffering day in day out because a handful of people don't want the scheme - what is democratic about that?

People are able to choose where they live and work...

AugustusMinimus

sondagefaux wrote: »

KevR wrote: »

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Say that to those who have lost loved ones as some NIMBY holds up a project indefinitely for no real reason.

The planning laws in this country definitely need to be looked at.

Agree.

When people are making the counter argument about being able to object as a human right because we are a democracy - at what point does commuter's quality of life come into it (from a human right and democracy point of view)?

We have tens of thousands of people spending unnecessary extra time commuting due to crap transport infrastructure. Often stressed. For some people this prolonged daily stress can lead to health implications.
With better infrastructure they could spend more time with their families, enjoying life, with reduced stress.

With our current planning system, many thousands of people in favour of a given scheme can be made to face continued suffering day in day out because a handful of people don't want the scheme - what is democratic about that?

People are able to choose where they live and work...

That swings both ways.