Government Capital Spending on Roads: 2016-2022

LeinsterDub

sondagefaux wrote: »

I don't know which roads you're talking about, but I was talking about the M20...

marno21 wrote: »

Slane, Adare, Macroom, New Ross (under construction), Borrisokane, the entire M20, Inishannon, Bandon, Charlestown (N17), Tobercurry, Ballybofey, Stranorlar, Carrick-on-Shannon, Castlemartyr, Killeagh, Virginia, Galway, along with relief roads for a few national secondaries.

There's no bottlenecks left on the N5

These kind of projects. Excluding the M20 and Galway

sondagefaux

LeinsterDub wrote: »

sondagefaux wrote: »

I don't know which roads you're talking about, but I was talking about the M20...

marno21 wrote: »

Slane, Adare, Macroom, New Ross (under construction), Borrisokane, the entire M20, Inishannon, Bandon, Charlestown (N17), Tobercurry, Ballybofey, Stranorlar, Carrick-on-Shannon, Castlemartyr, Killeagh, Virginia, Galway, along with relief roads for a few national secondaries.

There's no bottlenecks left on the N5

These kind of projects. Excluding the M20 and Galway

Charlestown (N17), Tobercurry, Ballybofey, Stranorlar are towns and villages along the Atlantic Corridor, part of the route connecting Cork to Letterkenny and Derry via Limerick, Ennis, Galway and Sligo. They will by bypassed as part of improvements to that route...
New Ross, Castlemartyr and Killeagh are all on the N25 route, connecting Cork to Waterford, Wexford and Rosslare. It's a route of major importance as it connects the entire southern area to one of the state's only ports with regular ro/ro ferry services to the UK.
If you're not familiar with Adare, Macroom, Inishannon, Bandon, Carrick-on-Shannon and Virginia, you won't know that they're major bottlenecks on national primary and important tourist routes. All need bypasses.
Borrisokane is a bottleneck on the N52 especially, which is gradually being improved and, when improved along its entire length, will provide a very good route connecting the north-east with the mid-west and south-west via the midlands, helping to reduce congestion on the M7/M50/M1 routes.
Not one of these proposed bypass or improvement schemes is unjustifiable.

marno21

The reason I mention Borrisokane is because all the heavy vehicles going through the town are making absolute horse****e of the surface and bar a complete relay, it needs bypassing. Of course there's also the complication of the N65.

Between Letterkenny and Waterford, you have:

Ballybofey/Stranorlar - N13/N15 Ballybofey/Stranorlar bypass
Cliffony/Grange/Drumcliffe/Rathcormac - all to be bypassed as part of N15 Sligo to County Boundary
Sligo - N4 Sligo bypass
Tobercurry - N17 Tobercurry BP
Charlestown - N17 Knock - Tobercurry
Milltown & Ballindine - N17 Tuam - Claremorris
Tuam - N17 Tuam BP (under construction)
Claregalway/Oranmore/Clarinbridge - M17/M18 Gort-Tuam (under construction)
Charleville/Buttevant/Mallow - M20 Cork - Limerick
Cork - N40 Cork North Ring Road
Castlemartyr/Killeagh - N25 Midleton - Youghal
Dungarvan - N25 Dungarvan Outer Bypass

This is the Atlantic Corridor. Connecting all the counter-balances to Dublin along the west coast. How in a developed economy are we supposed to move people and goods around if they have to trapse through all these towns?

Then you have the extremely busy N21/N22, connecting Cork and Limerick to Kerry. Both have higher volumes along their length than stretches of the M7, M8 and M9, and will likely have higher volumes than the M17. On the N21, you have Adare, Newcastlewest and Adare, and on the N22 Macroom and Killarney. Both cause 15 min+ delays at peak times per town meaning 45 minutes on the N21 and 30 minutes on the N22 looking at the car in front of you stopped.

But of course we have to upgrade one of the quietest national primaries in a roundabout fashion through a heritage site.

NiallBoo

sondagefaux wrote: »

Virginia...major bottlenecks on national primary and important tourist routes. All need bypasses.

This one at least will require major rerouting and won't happen until/unless there's funding to do from the Cavan/Meath border to Cavan town (earlier plans suggested 2+2).

I.e. not in the next 15+ years, if ever...rightly down the list of priorities given the scale

LeinsterDub

sondagefaux wrote: »

Not one of these proposed bypass or improvement schemes is unjustifiable.

I'm sure they are justifiable, most things are the issue is whether they should have been prioritised over the likes of the M20 and other non road projects

BoatMad

sondagefaux wrote: »

A certain type of Dub doesn't seem to realise that the Cork to Limerick route is the most important (and the most deficient) part of a route that connects, Cork, Limerick, Shannon, Ennis, Galway, Sligo, Co.Donegal (including Letterkenny) and Derry.

The concept of 'rural motorways' is rather strange.

What motorway in Ireland has been built primarily to connect the rural areas through which it passes to each other?

It's like claiming that the M1 in England is a 'rural motorway' because it passes through rural areas for most of its length.

Weird nonsense...

I'm not a Dub and I live 80 miles from Dublin, thanks

I can plainly see the transport chaos that exists in Dublin and I do not see that chaos anywhere else to the same extent and I certainly dont see it on the Cork to Limerick road

it would be " nice" to have the M20 , but Dublin " needs " more transport spending

Needs before nice IMHO

Calina

BoatMad wrote: »

I'm not a Dub and I live 80 miles from Dublin, thanks

I can plainly see the transport chaos that exists in Dublin and I do not see that chaos anywhere else to the same extent and I certainly dont see it on the Cork to Limerick road

it would be " nice" to have the M20 , but Dublin " needs " more transport spending

Needs before nice IMHO

Depends. N20 has seen a few fatal accidents in the past year. I'd argue that a dangerous road needs to be looked at.

Chris_5339762

Fatal accident rate should trump traffic jams, certainly in the case of M20 vs MN/DU. But all are needed in any case, just none of them seem to be moving.

marno21

Both are needed.

Limerick and Cork are the two biggest cities in Ireland outside of Dublin. Both have lots of major enterprise centres, two airports, two TEN-T core ports, two universities, two ITs, and are the biggest alternative to Dublin for business and investment. They are 100km apart. Outer suburbs of Cork and Limerick are 90km apart. It currently takes 2 hours to travel between the two at peak times. That's 45-50km/h. That is just ridiculous for 2016. Why anyone thinks the M20 isn't absolutely desperately needed I don't get.

Dublin also needs DART Underground and Metro North. Not in 2035. Now. The M20 and DU/MN are both equally needed in different places for different reasons. They are equally important to their respective locations. (I'd argue that the M28 and Dunkettle are as important for Cork. Both are obscenely underpowered for their respective purposes and why the Government are ****ing about with them is beyond me considering the benefits of each. Dunkettle has a cost benefit ratio of 10:1. I'd love to see how that compares with the N5 especially considering Dunkettle is CHEAPER and READY TO GO).

BoatMad

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Fatal accident rate should trump traffic jams, certainly in the case of M20 vs MN/DU. But all are needed in any case, just none of them seem to be moving.

fatal accidents should result in increased Garda activity, as the primary cause of accidents is statisically speed and drink driving

accidents in them selves are not a good reason to build a motorway

The congestion evident every day in moving around the capital is a goo reason to invest in transport spending and to prioritise that spending in an era of limited " fiscal space" into the area where it benefits the most people and that is clearly the capital and its environs

hans aus dtschl

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Maybe there are a certain type of Dub but your real 'enemy' here is the 'we need to bypass every town and village and upgraded every road' brigade before we'll worry about those city slickers of Dublin, Cork, Limerick or Galway variety.

I just want to mention that making Limerick/Cork more economically viable would take some pressure off Dublin, therefore benefiting Dublin.

It's also worth pointing out that there is no more suitable alternative economic region in the country.

I genuinely don't understand the reticence at building the M20. Why on earth aren't we attempting to alleviate the stressed infrastructure in Dublin by trying to build a counterbalance? There seems to be no political appetite whatsoever. Why on earth not?

hans aus dtschl

BoatMad wrote: »

fatal accidents should result in increased Garda activity, as the primary cause of accidents is statisically speed and drink driving

accidents in them selves are not a good reason to build a motorway

The congestion evident every day in moving around the capital is a goo reason to invest in transport spending and to prioritise that spending in an era of limited " fiscal space" into the area where it benefits the most people and that is clearly the capital and its environs

Should investing in transport spending in Dublin also alleviate the Dublin housing crisis, the jobs crises outside Dublin and the lop-sided economic output of the country?

Look, I'll lay my cards on the table: I think in arguing against the M20, you may be backing the losing horse.
By all means argue for more spending on infrastructure in Dublin, but at some point you will see that we can't keep hoping that the rest of the country will just "go away".

marno21

BoatMad wrote: »

fatal accidents should result in increased Garda activity, as the primary cause of accidents is statisically speed and drink driving

accidents in them selves are not a good reason to build a motorway

The congestion evident every day in moving around the capital is a goo reason to invest in transport spending and to prioritise that spending in an era of limited " fiscal space" into the area where it benefits the most people and that is clearly the capital and its environs

When you have a narrow, high traffic, 2 lane road with lots of HGV traffic and frequent accidents, with lots of junctions, a grade seperated, high quality road actually fit for the traffic makes sense.

Chris_5339762

BoatMad wrote: »

accidents in them selves are not a good reason to build a motorway

Agreed, but the road the motorway would replace is so catastrophically bad that it should be the exception. Don't forget the road near Buttevant is still on the same alignment that it was in the late 1800s.

Arguments aside for the motorway, Cork and Limerick should have been replaced by wider S2 years ago and still be on the cards for upgrade to motorway now.

The real mistake was back in the day when the Interurbans were defined... they were the main roads linking to Dublin back in the boom. Cork - Limerick should by all rights have been included in that.

marno21

Confirmation from DTTAS that the only Budget funding for 2017 will be the M7 Naas/Newbridge Bypass Upgrade and the roads into Grangecastle Business Park

http://www.dttas.ie/press-releases/2016/budget-2017-nearly-%E2%82%AC2bn-transport-tourism-and-sport-be-welcomed-%E2%80%93-ross-o%E2%80%99donovan

Woeful.

spacetweek

This was always going to be the case. Last year's investment plan set out the transport ramp-up in spending for the next few years and it was clear that we'd have money for maintenance only until 2018 at least. So all the schemes in the plan were never going to start until after that.

BoatMad

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

Should investing in transport spending in Dublin also alleviate the Dublin housing crisis, the jobs crises outside Dublin and the lop-sided economic output of the country?

Look, I'll lay my cards on the table: I think in arguing against the M20, you may be backing the losing horse.
By all means argue for more spending on infrastructure in Dublin, but at some point you will see that we can't keep hoping that the rest of the country will just "go away".

Im not arguing against the m20 , Im arguing in an era of very restrained budgets, priority must be given to Dublin

sondagefaux

BoatMad wrote: »

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

Should investing in transport spending in Dublin also alleviate the Dublin housing crisis, the jobs crises outside Dublin and the lop-sided economic output of the country?

Look, I'll lay my cards on the table: I think in arguing against the M20, you may be backing the losing horse.
By all means argue for more spending on infrastructure in Dublin, but at some point you will see that we can't keep hoping that the rest of the country will just "go away".

Im not arguing against the m20 , Im arguing in an era of very restrained budgets, priority must be given to Dublin

There is no reason why any capital spending projects on infrastructure in Dublin should take precedence over the M20. Ireland's economy is geographically unbalanced enough as it is. A motorway which would proved the missing link in terms of quality roads for four vitally important centres of economic activity (Cork, Limerick, Shannon and Galway) should be prioritised by any state which is serious about balanced regional development, especially when it would be replacing a road that is evidently no longer fit for purpose.

hans aus dtschl

BoatMad wrote: »

Im not arguing against the m20 , Im arguing in an era of very restrained budgets, priority must be given to Dublin

I do understand your argument and I disagree with you.

We have been focusing on Dublin since the start of the recession, with good results. But Dublin is at breaking point now for the reasons I mentioned. We can continue to build Dublin or attempt to balance our economy.

We need to come out of "crisis management" mode and start long-term planning again.
This is in no way an anti-Dublin sentiment. But the greater Dublin region is massively subsidising the rest of the economy. If we continue to prioritise Dublin instead of looking at a second area (like the UK are/were attempting with the Northern Powerhouse idea) you end up with unbalanced economy, unbalanced political landscape, etc etc etc. The UK ended up with Brexit essentially because of geographical unbalance.

It actually doesn't matter where that second economic area outside of Dublin is, but as it stands the best placed to succeed is Cork/Limerick. And that area is held back massively by the lack of this road.

jd

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

I do understand your argument and I disagree with you.

We have been focusing on Dublin since the start of the recession,

Really? Current road projects are M11, N25, M17/M18.

jd

Deedsie wrote: »

M11 is a motorway to get to and from Dublin, M7 widening is a motorway to get to and from Dublin. Do you think anyone here doesn't think the M20 is more important than the motorway from the M6 to Tuam or the N25?

I said M17/M18 not M7. I'm in favour of the M20, the problem is it shouldn't be a case of choosing between M20 or MN/DU. Dublin needs infrastructural investment badly too.

jd

Deedsie wrote: »

Yes you left out M7 Widening. It's also a current road project.

Who's arguing against MN or DART Expansion? Everyone apart from Boat mad said all three projects were equally important and should all be fastracked.

My original response was to the post stating that infrastructural investment has been focussed on Dublin since the bust

hans aus dtschl

jd wrote: »

Really? Current road projects are M11, N25, M17/M18.

Apologies, I should have clarified that I wasn't talking about infrastructural spending alone, I was talking about the economy.
In that respect, Dublin's been the focus, in order to float the rest of the economy.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/66pc-believe-capital-is-racing-ahead-in-recovery-30336146.html

hans aus dtschl

jd wrote: »

I said M17/M18 not M7. I'm in favour of the M20, the problem is it shouldn't be a case of choosing between M20 or MN/DU. Dublin needs infrastructural investment badly too.

It's not a case of either/or, we're all saying both are needed.

We're arguing AGAINST the idea that "priority must be given to Dublin", which is BoatMad's opinion!

jd

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

It's not a case of either/or, we're all saying both are needed.

We're arguing AGAINST the idea that "priority must be given to Dublin", which is BoatMad's opinion!

I agree with you then. I think John Moran has some interesting views, and I think resistance to what he suggests won't be from Dublin.

sondagefaux

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

BoatMad wrote: »

Im not arguing against the m20 , Im arguing in an era of very restrained budgets, priority must be given to Dublin

I do understand your argument and I disagree with you.

We have been focusing on Dublin since the start of the recession, with good results. But Dublin is at breaking point now for the reasons I mentioned. We can continue to build Dublin or attempt to balance our economy.

We need to come out of "crisis management" mode and start long-term planning again.
This is in no way an anti-Dublin sentiment. But the greater Dublin region is massively subsidising the rest of the economy. If we continue to prioritise Dublin instead of looking at a second area (like the UK are/were attempting with the Northern Powerhouse idea) you end up with unbalanced economy, unbalanced political landscape, etc etc etc. The UK ended up with Brexit essentially because of geographical unbalance.

It actually doesn't matter where that second economic area outside of Dublin is, but as it stands the best placed to succeed is Cork/Limerick. And that area is held back massively by the lack of this road.

Excellent points. The UK is the most imbalanced economy in the EU. London has per capita GDP levels which are 5.5 times the EU average, while the rest of the UK is just above the EU average. Ireland isn't anywhere near as bad when it comes to the regional distribution of wealth, but it's still imbalanced heavily in favour of Dublin and its immediate hinterland. Developing the economy of the Cork - Limerick - Shannon - Galway corridor is the most obvious and easiest way to area to help overcome the imbalance in Ireland's economy and simple piece of infrastructure like a motorway between Cork and Limerick is an important part of that development. If the Irish regions outside of the greater Dublin area ever find themselves falling as far behind Dublin as most of the rest of the UK has fallen behind London, then you're looking at ever increasing alienation from the state, from national government and from mainstream politics, in regions that fall behind. It's bad enough as it is without making it worse. By all means develop Dublin's infrastructure, but not at the expense of vital regional infrastructure.

munchkin_utd

I'd actually say that the attractiveness of living and working in a city, is not whether you can get to the next city quickly, but (funnily enough) whether you can live and work and get around that city easily.

The lack of the M20 wouldnt stop me from moving to Cork, but the stories I hear of my sister in law working in one of the hospitals where people drive in for about 7am , to sleep in the car for a couple of hours to ensure a parking space, where the busses arent an option as they are too unreliable, where you cant take the main road out of Carraigaline and end up driving bohereens because of the traffic jams heading into the city, are the kind of things that would put me off moving back to Ireland, and in specific Cork.

Cork people should focus on sorting out their own city first before looking to have links to Limerick improved.

spacetweek

munchkin_utd wrote: »

The lack of the M20 wouldnt stop me from moving to Cork, but the stories I hear of my sister in law working in one of the hospitals where people drive in for about 7am , to sleep in the car for a couple of hours to ensure a parking space, where the busses arent an option as they are too unreliable, where you cant take the main road out of Carraigaline and end up driving bohereens because of the traffic jams heading into the city, are the kind of things that would put me off moving back to Ireland, and in specific Cork.

I must say that sounds quite exaggerated. If the bus is unreliable can you not just get an earlier bus etc.

Must be a rush hour issue as I've been to cork plenty of times and never once gotten stuck in a traffic jam or found the buses unreliable.

hans aus dtschl

munchkin_utd wrote: »

I'd actually say that the attractiveness of living and working in a city, is not whether you can get to the next city quickly, but (funnily enough) whether you can live and work and get around that city easily.

The lack of the M20 wouldnt stop me from moving to Cork, but the stories I hear of my sister in law working in one of the hospitals where people drive in for about 7am , to sleep in the car for a couple of hours to ensure a parking space, where the busses arent an option as they are too unreliable, where you cant take the main road out of Carraigaline and end up driving bohereens because of the traffic jams heading into the city, are the kind of things that would put me off moving back to Ireland, and in specific Cork.

Cork people should focus on sorting out their own city first before looking to have links to Limerick improved.

People working in CUH drive in for 7AM for free parking. Anecdotally, many of these are consultants.
Carrigaline has its own thread: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=214509

Neither have anything whatsoever to do with the M20.

And if all that weren't enough, your last paragraph takes the biscuit. Cork people should focus on sorting out all of the local problems first before looking for a critical all-island infrastructural spend to be started... what an utterly ridiculous statement!

What's your angle on this? Is it a "the smaller cities don't need infrastructure" type of response akin to "Qu'ils mangent de la brioche"?

NiallBoo

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

What's your angle on this? Is it a "the smaller cities don't need infrastructure" type of response akin to "Qu'ils mangent de la brioche"?

their point is that smaller cities do need infrastructure.

That we procrastinate so much about building it that the norm for us is to wait until we have a situation like Dublin where there's a dire need rather than planning and building it in good time.

I.e. that cork, Limerick and Galway should be starting to build metros and/or trams now. To accommodate current and future need.

Also that the greater number of people that have to get around those cities should take priority over the lesser number if people that have to get between them.

We shouldn't take Dublin as a model for development, it should be a cautionary tale to scare kids with.

(Note, I'm criticising the how, not the scale of Dublin's development. I think the idea of saying "Dublin needs to be balanced because it's so much bigger than the other cities" is a little short-sighed. It's not a competition between Irish cities, it's a competition between all cities in the world. If a place is too small it won't get a look-in. Companies want to site themselves where things are happening)