Malaysia earthquake: British woman arrested for 'stripping naked and causing quake

Samaris

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

How can a mountain be sacred? Is there proof that gods/demons/spirits or anything else exist that could make it "sacred" exist?

They got naked on a mountain, big deal, is there something inherently wrong with nudity?

OK, just because too much flippancy annoys even my fairly agnostic self as regards religion and the likes;

What makes a place sacred is the belief and importance it has for those living around it. If you entirely do not believe in religious or spiritual whatevers, that's grand, but what makes it sacred is its place in a society. That mountain is spiritually important to those people, thus it is sacred.

Cold War Kid

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Whoever thought that fresh air on a pair of boobs caused an earthquake is the eejti.

Well yeh, but besides the "Nudity causing an earthquake" silliness which some are buying into, the concern is over disrespecting a sacred relic (not a concern exclusive to muslims) by getting naked in its vicinity and urinating, simply *because* it's sacred and knowing it would piss people off, to be all rebellious and edgy for Facebook. Easy target too, they wouldn't dream of it at e.g. the Wailing Wall.

That's gobshytery and arrogance - if you get in trouble for something like this, it's your own fault; although it doesn't deserve a severe punishment IMO.

jank

Are people still doing the whole, 'its no big deal'. Look we may think like that here and in the West in general but if you are in other countries then you have to respect the local customs, traditions and laws. Getting naked on a mountain that is deem sacred by the locals is an obvious no-no and if you can't see that then you are an idiot. TBH this is just western snobbery, so called educated and enlightened twenty somethings that go off and travel to 'find themselves'. Well maybe they did find themselves and they found themselves to be narcissistic arseholes.

feargale

Falcon L wrote: »

Ignorant people believing in angry spirits. When will the human race mature?

You do know ( don't you? ) that there are parts of the world, particularly in South East Asia, where people do still live in the Stone Age, genuinely believing that mountains etc. contain supernatural powers. That is the case in Papua-New Guinea, some Polynesian islands and in Borneo where this happened. Why the hell would anyone with a bit of cop or decency want to upset those people?
Religion is not all that people hold dear. Imagine a crowd of foreign yobs here desecrating say the Garden of Remembrance, or a memorial to the Stardust disaster. Imagine the outcry from some people if the authorities turned a blind eye. You hadn't thought of that, had you? No, it was another opportunity to have a swipe at religion and every other consideration must take second place.
For too many here their knowledge and logic trumps their wisdom.

feargale

darkpagandeath wrote: »

What need have God's for clothes ?

If I were you I'd ask the Stone Age locals who were upset. It should make for an interesting exchange. I'm not going to speculate as to who would be more enlightened.

feargale

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

I thought Malaysia was modern? Looks like it joins the list of countries thst a wall should be built around and all technology removed from them.

When will some of us become modern enough to respect beliefs we don't share?

padd b1975

I really hope Mecca is on their itinerary.

LordSutch

But was she really naked?

Or, was she just topless?

bolopapa

Is their a water body on the moutain or what?, because i fail to see the point of getting naked on top of a moutain. Only if your plan is to get chest cold.

Menas

LordSutch wrote: »

But was she really naked?

Or, was she just topless?

The girls went topless, boys fully naked ....I think.

LordSutch

Menas wrote: »

The girls went topless, boys fully naked ....I think.

Ah ha, so there you go!

So all the sensationalist deadlines about " Nude Brit Girl" is all lies. Even the BBC & Sky are still going on about the fact that she was nude on top of a sacred mountain, when all along its beginning to transpire that she wasn't nude at all.

She wasn't nude, she was topless.

Samaris

feargale wrote: »

If I were you I'd ask the Stone Age locals who were upset. It should make for an interesting exchange. I'm not going to speculate as to who would be more enlightened.

feargale wrote: »

When will some of us become modern enough to respect beliefs we don't share?

*bewildered expression*

mikom

Quote:

Sarawak Deputy Chief Minister Tan Sri Alfred Jabu told Malaysia's official news agency Bernama that the region's indigenous people believed that the group of about 10 foreigners had "angered the spirit" of Mount Kinabalu, causing the earthquake a week later.

The "spirit of Mount Kinabalu" which was probably dreamt up by naked indigenous folk in times past.
.
The "spirit of Mount Kinabalu" should be more fucked off about the Nike hiking boots that were probably made in an Asian sweat shop........ http://abcnews.go.com/Business/story?id=5503956
.
.

Samaris

mikom wrote: »

Quote: The "spirit of Mount Kinabalu" which was probably dreamt up by naked indigenous folk in times past.

Does an honest belief that harms no-one else deserve to be insulted because some bunch of eejity snap-happy foreigners have decided that stripping at World Heritage Sites is a thing?

Have some manners in another country is all.

Yakult

Just another stupid trend, stripping naked at famous landmarks. No doubt it will pass, but with some/a lot of stupidity along the way.

LordSutch

Glad to see that Sky news has fianlly dropped the sensationalist "nude" stuff, and is now talking about her being topless. http://news.sky.com/story/1501836/topless-tourist-speaks-after-return-to-uk

K4t

jank wrote: »

They do if they break the law but apparently these enlightened worldly progressive snowflakes can't think outside the box and are then surprised that the locals may be upset by their juvenile actions, all of course was just to crave attention for their facebook page.

Stand back from your faux concern for the justice system of Malaysia for a minute and try and understand what I meant - nobody deserves punishment for taking their clothes off on a mountain, no matter where in the world they are, it's ludicrous - in Malaysia however they have a law that says a person is breaking the law for doing such a thing - now you say the tourists deserved to be punished for breaking the law of the country they were in and that anyone who breaks a law deserves to be punished - while myself and others might say that nobody deserves to be punished for such a ridiculous thing as taking your clothes off on a mountain, but it's an important lesson for the travellers who should have obeyed the law of the country they were in.

Your argument about deserving punishment is very conservative though, and would be like a tourist coming to Ireland and being found guilty of breaking our blasphemy law - you and a lot of other posters here would apparently argue that the tourist deserves punishment for engaging in blasphemy as it is the law and custom of our society - the rest of us would argue that at best the tourist should have understood that there was a law against blasphemy and refrained from engaging in blasphemy - we might even say it's an important lesson for the traveller.

Our blasphemy law is just as archaic and frankly absurd as Malaysia's you can't get naked on a mountain law - nobody deserves punishment for committing either act in a civilized society. The laws are there however, and people who break the laws in a country deserve to be punished - but we can still rightly criticize those laws and mock their nature - should we here in Ireland follow your train of thought, and simply accept the blasphemy law and never question it or strive for its removal? Are we engaging in "western snobbery" as you call it when we campaign for it to be removed? While the young tourists may have been disrespectful to Malaysia, in the long run it is those such as yourself who are most respectful, and most condescending towards the Malaysian people - you perpetuate the idea that the law is rational, the beliefs behind it etc. all in a pathetic attempt to promote your conservative ideal - oooh tough on crime! Sad.

catallus

Both the blasphemy law and the "no nudey boobies on mountains" law are good things, I think.

It's about keeping up standards.

Turtwig

If they weren't aware what they were doing was grossly offensive to indigenous customs then I'd have a lot of sympathy for them. As things stand if they were aware I have some sympathy for them just not as much. Silly thing to do if they had prior knowledge of it being offensive.

K4t

Turtwig wrote: »

If they weren't aware what they were doing was grossly offensive to indigenous customs then I'd have a lot of sympathy for them. As things stand if they were aware I have some sympathy for them just not as much. Silly thing to do if they had prior knowledge of it being offensive.

Of course it was a silly thing to do if they knew of the law that existed concerning the practice - just as a tourist to Ireland who engages in what is deemed to be grossly offensive blasphemy and is charged is silly - under the laws of each country respectively, they probably deserve to be punished. But no reasonable, objective observer could argue that a person ever deserves to be punished for blasphemy or taking their clothes off on a mountain. The laws that exist are the product of ancient religious belief - they obviously do not belong in a civilized society. I think posters like Jank know this but would rather ignore it in an attempt to score some points against some young "educated and enlightened tourists" trying to "find themselves" and the "liberal media" who are showing them support.

Neyite

Turtwig wrote: »

If they weren't aware what they were doing was grossly offensive to indigenous customs then I'd have a lot of sympathy for them. As things stand if they were aware I have some sympathy for them just not as much. Silly thing to do if they had prior knowledge of it being offensive.

If it became the 'thing' for hordes of young people to descend on Knock Shrine, ignore the 'quiet, please' signs, piss in the holy water fonts, ignore the pleas of the guides to be respectful, and get their tits and lads out for a selfie, I reckon the people who have gone there to pray and have their day disrupted would be upset, as would the people who run the shrine. As a person who pretty much hates everything the catholic church stands for, I'd still think they are twats for that kind of behaviour though I might find it amusing to see an irate bishop on the news giving out, but I know some older people who go regularly to Knock and who would be terribly upset and offended at the desecration and disrespect of a shrine that is spiritually important to them.

I can easily see that one our politicians come out with a cringy soundbite that would make us facepalm too. It's just about respecting the environment - people, culture and the earth. Not littering in beautiful scenic areas, not removing coral or fish from reefs, taking off your shoes when entering temples, modest dress in mosques, not taking the piss and making aeroplane jokes at Ground Zero. It's just common decency and respectful of others IMO.

K4t

Neyite wrote: »

If it became the 'thing' for hordes of young people to descend on Knock Shrine, ignore the 'quiet, please' signs, piss in the holy water fonts, ignore the pleas of the guides to be respectful, and get their tits and lads out for a selfie, I reckon the people who have gone there to pray and have their day disrupted would be upset, as would the people who run the shrine.

A mountain top is not in any way comparable to Knock Shrine- A more accurate comparison would be Croagh Patrick - And men and women go up and down that hill every summer half naked, cursing obscenities and mocking religion too. At the end of the day, a mountain is a mountain, and while meaning, religious or otherwise, can be assigned to it, it's still a mountain - and it's ludicrous to have a law saying you can't take off your clothes on a mountain. Obviously the law is different in Malaysia and I'd respect the law if I found myself on a mountain there, but those attempting to show respect for the Malaysian people by rationalizing the law from behind their keyboards, well it's laughable, and damaging to all kinds of reason and logic, and only serves to perpetuate the sort of nonsensical thinking behind the law.

catallus

My understanding is that the location of their action had little to do with its legality.

Reason and logic, indeed.

Samaris

K4t wrote: »

Of course it was a silly thing to do if they knew of the law that existed concerning the practice - just as a tourist to Ireland who engages in what is deemed to be grossly offensive blasphemy and is charged is silly - under the laws of each country respectively, they probably deserve to be punished.

If some bunch of eejits go to another country, break their laws, disrespect the local culture, disobey the tour-guide, and generally make international tits of themselves, they probably deserve a slap on the wrist and to be thrown out, since they obviously can't behave themselves as guests of another culture.

K4t wrote: »

But no reasonable, objective observer could argue that a person ever deserves to be punished for blasphemy or taking their clothes off on a mountain. The laws that exist are the product of ancient religious belief - they obviously do not belong in a civilized society.

That's opinion. Who are you to say that Malaysia is uncivilised for having their own customs and religions?

K4t wrote: »

I think posters like Jank know this but would rather ignore it in an attempt to score some points against some young "educated and enlightened tourists" trying to "find themselves" and the "liberal media" who are showing them support.

How did we all "find ourselves" in the says before we could strip naked (or topless) and take photos of ourselves on the tops of mountains, presumably so people can tell us where we are?

Ah, it's good to have a civilized society, and presumably one that's really good at geography too!

K4t wrote: »

A mountain top is not in any way comparable to Knock Shrine- A more accurate comparison would be Croagh Patrick - And men and women go up and down that hill every summer half naked, cursing obscenities and mocking religion too. At the end of the day, a mountain is a mountain, and while meaning, religious or otherwise, can be assigned to it, it's still a mountain - and it's ludicrous to have a law saying you can't take off your clothes on a mountain.

Gotcha, it's only a place to be respected if it's got a building on it. No flag, no country, right? Anyway, just because WE don't ask people to behave with a bit of cop on in public on Crough Patrick, doesn't mean that no-one else should require a bit of decency and public decorum in their places.

K4t wrote: »

Obviously the law is different in Malaysia and I'd respect the law if I found myself on a mountain there, but those attempting to show respect for the Malaysian people by rationalizing the law from behind their keyboards, well it's laughable, and damaging to all kinds of reason and logic, and only serves to perpetuate the sort of nonsensical thinking behind the law.

Interesting, you don't respect the culture, the customs and consider them uncivilised to prefer people not to strip on their sacred sites, but you still wouldn't do it because of manners.

Nope, it's not laughable. You know what manners stems from? I'm not actually taking the piss there - manners are basically a code of conduct for everyone to follow to make any individual of a society at ease with each other - "knowing how to act". In this case, they showed spectacularly bad manners and got a smack on the wrist for it.


It's ALSO worth noting that, the ludicrous reporting aside, they weren't arrested for disrespecting a holy site, and no, there was never any chance of being sacrificed to anything, they were arrested for making a holy show of themselves against the law. You know, the same "public indecency laws" we have here too. They got three days and a fine. The UK Naked Rambler got eight years, as someone up above commented.

Now who's the ludicrous country, modern civilised UK or "stone age" Malaysia?

Neyite

K4t wrote: »

A mountain top is not in any way comparable to Knock Shrine- A more accurate comparison would be Croagh Patrick - And men and women go up and down that hill every summer half naked, cursing obscenities and mocking religion too. At the end of the day, a mountain is a mountain, and while meaning, religious or otherwise, can be assigned to it, it's still a mountain - and it's ludicrous to have a law saying you can't take off your clothes on a mountain. Obviously the law is different in Malaysia and I'd respect the law if I found myself on a mountain there, but those attempting to show respect for the Malaysian people by rationalizing the law from behind their keyboards, well it's laughable, and damaging to all kinds of reason and logic, and only serves to perpetuate the sort of nonsensical thinking behind the law.

There are plenty of laws in other countries I think are stupid, as well as a few here in this one too. That's not the point. If you visit a country you know is a conservative one, such as Malaysia where you know there are pretty strict penalties for public order offences, it stands to reason that getting naked in public, might be against the law. Especially considering its a law that British/Canadian and Dutch would probably have themselves in their own countries

The problem is that either this lot of eejits didnt check that stripping off was lawbreaking which I doubt, because usually in tourist sites there are signs or guides to help you out, or were obnoxious enough not to give a fcuk, behaving whatever way they like. I'm guessing the latter.

K4t

Samaris wrote: »

If some bunch of eejits go to another country, break their laws, disrespect the local culture, disobey the tour-guide, and generally make international tits of themselves, they probably deserve a slap on the wrist and to be thrown out, since they obviously can't behave themselves as guests of another culture.

If they are found guilty of breaking the law, they deserve to be punished - that doesn't mean we over here in Ireland and Britain have to suddenly respect that law and criticism and lambast the tourists, without questioning the absurdity of the law. It's not western snobbery or disrespect to question the law, it's simply not being condescending and perpetuating laws which stem from conservatively religious beliefs like most other posters here seem happy to do, so long as they appear tolerant of other cultures on boards!

That's opinion. Who are you to say that Malaysia is uncivilised for having their own customs and religions?

I didn't say that: I said laws making it a crime to take your top off on top of a mountain do not belong in civilized societies. Just as blasphemy laws do not belong in civilized societies. Unlike a lot of other posters, I'm not being condescending towards Malaysia or its customs, I'm merely making a point about a ridiculous law.

Interesting, you don't respect the culture, the customs and consider them uncivilised to prefer people not to strip on their sacred sites, but you still wouldn't do it because of manners.

Not manners, the law. I obey the law (not necessarily respect it) whether I'm here in Ireland, or anywhere else in the world. It's usually a safer bet and means I avoid prisons. Do I respect the blasphemy law in Ireland? Hell no. But I obey it. (mostly) Do I respect a law that results in tourists being arrested for taking topless pictures on top of a mountain? No chance. But I wouldn't engage in the same behavior as those tourists were I on the same mountain.

It's ALSO worth noting that, the ludicrous reporting aside, they weren't arrested for disrespecting a holy site, and no, there was never any chance of being sacrificed to anything, they were arrested for making a holy show of themselves against the law. You know, the same "public indecency laws" we have here too. They got three days and a fine. The UK Naked Rambler got eight years, as someone up above commented.

See, the fact that you call a few tourists taking some topless pictures on top of a mountain a "holy show" gives a clear indication into your outlook on life and what you think society should be. A holy show? Really? If I was on top of croagh patrick or caratouhill and saw a few Malaysian tourists taking some pictures of each other topless, I wouldn't bat an eyelid - I simply would not care - I might sneak a peak and have a laugh at best.

Now who's the ludicrous country, modern civilised UK or "stone age" Malaysia?

Never mentioned a ludicrous country - You did. The law in Malaysia is still ludicrous yeah.

Samaris

I find it disrespectful that people will go to another country and decide that what they want to do is quite simply more important than the feelings and considerations of their host culture - let alone the law - is more important. Yeah, I stand by a "holy show". If they want to strip off, do it someplace where you're not disrespecting the tour guide who asked them not to, where you're not breaking the law, and where you're not profaning someone's sacred place.

I also have a bit more respect for an old cultural and religious tradition than I do of the recent tradition to strip off at world heritage sites to take selfies. Even if it was a cultural tradition rather than a dumbass fad, one's own tradition takes a back seat to the cultural tradition of your host country, particularly when it's really not gonna hurt you to keep your shirt on on top of a mountain.

But, sacred mountain or not, they got done for breaking the law and got off as lightly as might be expected, and, as I said, a lot more lightly than that British guy. That it was a sacred spot just was the icing of rudeness on the cake of stupid.

Turtwig

Neyite wrote: »

If it became the 'thing' for hordes of young people to descend on Knock Shrine, ignore the 'quiet, please' signs, piss in the holy water fonts, ignore the pleas of the guides to be respectful, and get their tits and lads out for a selfie, I reckon the people who have gone there to pray and have their day disrupted would be upset, as would the people who run the shrine. As a person who pretty much hates everything the catholic church stands for, I'd still think they are twats for that kind of behaviour though I might find it amusing to see an irate bishop on the news giving out, but I know some older people who go regularly to Knock and who would be terribly upset and offended at the desecration and disrespect of a shrine that is spiritually important to them.

I can easily see that one our politicians come out with a cringy soundbite that would make us facepalm too. It's just about respecting the environment - people, culture and the earth. Not littering in beautiful scenic areas, not removing coral or fish from reefs, taking off your shoes when entering temples, modest dress in mosques, not taking the piss and making aeroplane jokes at Ground Zero. It's just common decency and respectful of others IMO.

I doesn't diagree with any of that. But I also don't see the relevance of your post to mine. My point was specifically about knowledge and ignorance. Keeping with you analogy, ff someone wasn't aware what Knock actually meant to locals my attitude towards them stripping there would be much different to someone who was aware.

K4t

Samaris wrote: »

I find it disrespectful that people will go to another country and decide that what they want to do is quite simply more important than the feelings and considerations of their host culture - let alone the law - is more important. Yeah, I stand by a "holy show". If they want to strip off, do it someplace where you're not disrespecting the tour guide who asked them not to, where you're not breaking the law, and where you're not profaning someone's sacred place.

And I find that disrespectful too so we agree on that - plus the law is the law as you say. However, the abstract idea of posing for a picture on top of a mountain topless does not constitute a "holy show" imo - but obviously in the context of doing it on that mountain, in that country, I can see why it could be referred to as such. So I think you have confused my argument slightly - in the context, the behaviour was disrespectful and a holy show, and worse still if they knew of the law and customs - but that does not mean that those customs are anything to be celebrating here. And in no way means we have to respect that law or those customs here on boards - obey it yes if in Malaysia, but not respect it, like how barely any Irish person respects the blasphemy law.

I also have a bit more respect for an old cultural and religious tradition than I do of the recent tradition to strip off at world heritage sites to take selfies. Even if it was a cultural tradition rather than a dumbass fad, one's own tradition takes a back seat to the cultural tradition of your host country, particularly when it's really not gonna hurt you to keep your shirt on on top of a mountain.

Forget tradition though for a moment, whether religious or tourist, and think of the act itself. Topless photo on top of a mountain should never equal breaking the law - it simply makes no sense, and we can even see that the arrest stems from the fact that the mountain is held to be sacred. It simply defies logic. Would you really want a group of Malaysian tourists posing for a few topless pictures on top of Croagh Patrick to be arrested for doing so? I know I wouldn't, nor would any member of my family, so that's four people at least!

frostyjacks

Public indecency is public indecency. Doesn't matter if it's at the top of a mountain or outside a school playground, the law has to be applied, and to be seen to be applied.

Samaris

K4t wrote: »

And I find that disrespectful too so we agree on that - plus the law is the law as you say. However, the abstract idea of posing for a picture on top of a mountain topless does not constitute a "holy show" imo - but obviously in the context of doing it on that mountain, in that country, I can see why it could be referred to as such. So I think you have confused my argument slightly - in the context, the behaviour was disrespectful and a holy show, and worse still if they knew of the law and customs - but that does not mean that those customs are anything to be celebrating here. And in no way means we have to respect that law or those customs here on boards - obey it yes if in Malaysia, but not respect it, like how barely any Irish person respects the blasphemy law.

I entirely agree in general. Yes, context makes them a bunch of eejits in this case. No, I don't care if someone wants to pose on top of a mountain naked, although I'll think they're a bit of an eejit regardless.

They knew the law and the custom, the tourguide told them and they disobeyed him, according to reports. That is pig-ignorant and means I have no sympathy for this shower (if this report is proved incorrect, I may revise my opinion, but that is what I'm going by at the moment).

K4t wrote: »

Forget tradition though for a moment, whether religious or tourist, and think of the act itself. Topless photo on top of a mountain should never equal breaking the law - it simply makes no sense, and we can even see that the arrest stems from the fact that the mountain is held to be sacred. It simply defies logic. Would you really want a group of Malaysian tourists posing for a few topless pictures on top of Croagh Patrick to be arrested for doing so? I know I wouldn't, nor would any member of my family, so that's four people at least!

Quite, but then again, Crough Patrick doesn't mean a great deal in -that- regard to us or our culture. One mountain isn't really like another, in the same way that one building isn't like another. One can say "well, one should be able to pose topless in a building". Yes, some buildings. But still, most people wouldn't do it in a church.

However, someone is far more likely to get arrested and charged under the act of public indecency if they are doing it somewhere they really shouldn't be as opposed to doing it in a field where no-one gives a damn. Yeah, the law gets applied rather unevenly, but it's probably better to arrest those making a nuisence of themselves (consider the feelings of that tour guide - he got inflicted with the whole thing by the group of them; so yes, they did actually "harm" someone) than arresting everyone sunbathing

steddyeddy

K4t wrote: »

A mountain top is not in any way comparable to Knock Shrine- A more accurate comparison would be Croagh Patrick - And men and women go up and down that hill every summer half naked, cursing obscenities and mocking religion too. At the end of the day, a mountain is a mountain, and while meaning, religious or otherwise, can be assigned to it, it's still a mountain - and it's ludicrous to have a law saying you can't take off your clothes on a mountain. Obviously the law is different in Malaysia and I'd respect the law if I found myself on a mountain there, but those attempting to show respect for the Malaysian people by rationalizing the law from behind their keyboards, well it's laughable, and damaging to all kinds of reason and logic, and only serves to perpetuate the sort of nonsensical thinking behind the law.

Who are you to dictate what the mountain means to the indigenous people? You suggest the law bans people believing things are sacred instead?

catallus

I wonder would it be illegal to sprinkle holy water up on top of that mountain?

Did they ever find that cross that was cut down in Ireland last year?

josip

Anybody on here ever climb Uluru?

Turtwig

josip wrote: »

Anybody on here ever climb Uluru?

In Ireland they call those things "mountains". In Australia they class it as a fcking rock!

YFlyer

josip wrote: »

Anybody on here ever climb Uluru?

Naked or with clothes on?

Neyite

Turtwig wrote: »

I doesn't diagree with any of that. But I also don't see the relevance of your post to mine. My point was specifically about knowledge and ignorance. Keeping with you analogy, ff someone wasn't aware what Knock actually meant to locals my attitude towards them stripping there would be much different to someone who was aware.

Sorry, I omitted that I agreed with your comments. My comments were my own.

steddyeddy

This p1sses me off because I have went to places like this and seen this behavior repeatedly.


In Africa or south east Asia e.g Sumatra I you get westerners coming into countries like this and completely disrespecting the locals. Just because you don't agree with their beliefs doesn't make it OK to treat like crap. Why would you deliberately go into these people's territory and set about to offend them. They needed to be taught some manners and if they did it some place like Sumatra they would be in a lot more trouble with the locals.

jank

K4t wrote: »

Stand back from your faux concern for the justice system of Malaysia for a minute and try and understand what I meant - nobody deserves punishment for taking their clothes off on a mountain, no matter where in the world they are, it's ludicrous -

Would you say its OK then for an old man to take his clothes off outside a girls primary school? Do such a thing in Ireland and you will be charged with a sex crime. I take it in your world that this act should not go unpunished!?

but we can still rightly criticize those laws and mock their nature - should we here in Ireland follow your train of thought, and simply accept the blasphemy law and never question it or strive for its removal? Are we engaging in "western snobbery" as you call it when we campaign for it to be removed?

Yes, because Irish prisons are overflowing with people due to them breaking the Blasphemy law. Its a total strawman argument.

While the young tourists may have been disrespectful to Malaysia, in the long run it is those such as yourself who are most respectful, and most condescending towards the Malaysian people - you perpetuate the idea that the law is rational, the beliefs behind it etc. all in a pathetic attempt to promote your conservative ideal - oooh tough on crime! Sad.

I have no idea what you are on about and you are trying to personalise the debate. I am condescending towards Malaysia because I would not take my clothes off on top of a mountain that would be deemed scared by many of the locals. No, that is actually showing tolerance and respect for others who may have different morals, values and beliefs then me. THAT is what tolerance is. I have shown the same respect when I was up that mountain a number of years ago, besides the fact it never crossed my mind to do that because a) I am not an attention whoring narcissistic idiot b) its fecking cold up there at in the early morning (you get up at 2:30AM to make the final climb to catch the sunrise).

If you are anywhere in the world, you show respect to the locals. I certainly would not be telling them how to live their lives, what to believe and what morals to hold. I have done this where ever I traveled and any time I visited a place that was deemed sacred by the locals. From Temples in Thailand, to ruins in Cambodia, to lakes in Tibet, to caves in Namibia. Tolerance is a wonderful thing once you live by it rather then preach it.

jank

As an aside, for those claiming that this group was 'ignorant' or simply 'did not know' that you do not strip naked on top of this mountain, its bull$hit to be frank. If you want to climb this mountain to the very top you MUST have a local guide with you. Your permit is checked at gates not far from where you overnight in Laban Rata, They will not let you in if you do not have an official guide with you. It is a safety measure to stop idiots falling off the mountain plus of course a way to create jobs for the locals. There is also a ratio thing when I was there, Like a 1/6 or something so if you have a group of 10 you need two guides. On such a trip, you basically confer with your guide on what is safe and what is not safe. I very much doubt the guides told them to go off and do what they did, in fact I would imagine that they told them not to do it and would not be surprised at all if they were the ones the got hold of the officials/police and made the complaint.

EDIT: Yes, ratio is still the same.
http://www.mountkinabalu.com/faq#a13

Do I really need a mountain guide even though I’m an experience climber?
Yes. Sabah Park safety regulations require all climbers/hikers to be accompanied by a licensed mountain guide from the local Mountain Guide Association. The ratio is at least 1 mountain guide to a maximum of 6 climbers.

Samaris

@jank

Yeah, according to the reports I read, the tour guide told them not to and they were rude to him. I can't confirm beyond a shadow of a doubt that that happened, but assuming the report is correct, but assuming so, I have little sympathy.

Mind you, the whole thing HAS been a storm in a teacup, but it certainly does raise some points about how to behave as a tourist in a foreign country!

Dr_Bill

People need to realise that they are guests in a foreign country and should respect other peoples customs and traditions. Just because it is perceived to be acceptable to get drunk in Dublin and urinate in the street doesn't mean it will be tolerated in some of the Gulf states.

It is because of this diversity that makes different places interesting.

jank

Samaris wrote: »

@jank

Yeah, according to the reports I read, the tour guide told them not to and they were rude to him. I can't confirm beyond a shadow of a doubt that that happened, but assuming the report is correct, but assuming so, I have little sympathy.

Mind you, the whole thing HAS been a storm in a teacup, but it certainly does raise some points about how to behave as a tourist in a foreign country!

Yes the thing is a bit of a storm in a teacup but I think it sheds a light on how spoilt educated twenty-something 'progressives' actually treat the locals and their customs. The guides are locals as well, who are away from their families for weeks on end. They are just earning their crust like us all and if they have idiots like these guys go off and make a show of themselves then they too will get in trouble and could lose their jobs.

I have heard horror stories relating to this when in Tibet where basically idiot western tourists cost tour guides their livelihoods. It is just mind-blowing stupidity where your actions which you deem trivial could have massive repercussion on others.

beyondbelief67

Turtwig wrote: »

I doesn't diagree with any of that. But I also don't see the relevance of your post to mine. My point was specifically about knowledge and ignorance. Keeping with you analogy, ff someone wasn't aware what Knock actually meant to locals my attitude towards them stripping there would be much different to someone who was aware.

They did know it was sacred and not allowed, they were told before going up the mountain and while up there by their guide not to act how they were and ignored the guides telling them to shut up as the judge put it but certainly carrying on and not caring what they were told.

K4t

jank wrote: »

Yes the thing is a bit of a storm in a teacup but I think it sheds a light on how spoilt educated twenty-something 'progressives' actually treat the locals and their customs. The guides are locals as well, who are away from their families for weeks on end. They are just earning their crust like us all and if they have idiots like these guys go off and make a show of themselves then they too will get in trouble and could lose their jobs.

I have heard horror stories relating to this when in Tibet where basically idiot western tourists cost tour guides their livelihoods. It is just mind-blowing stupidity where your actions which you deem trivial could have massive repercussion on others.

jank wrote: »

As an aside, for those claiming that this group was 'ignorant' or simply 'did not know' that you do not strip naked on top of this mountain, its bull$hit to be frank. If you want to climb this mountain to the very top you MUST have a local guide with you. Your permit is checked at gates not far from where you overnight in Laban Rata, They will not let you in if you do not have an official guide with you. It is a safety measure to stop idiots falling off the mountain plus of course a way to create jobs for the locals. There is also a ratio thing when I was there, Like a 1/6 or something so if you have a group of 10 you need two guides. On such a trip, you basically confer with your guide on what is safe and what is not safe. I very much doubt the guides told them to go off and do what they did, in fact I would imagine that they told them not to do it and would not be surprised at all if they were the ones the got hold of the officials/police and made the complaint.

EDIT: Yes, ratio is still the same.
http://www.mountkinabalu.com/faq#a13

Yes, yes, you are right in everything you have said there, and the majority of decent, intelligent people would agree with you, including myself (not that I'm decent or intelligent). My point from the beginning however, and still stands, is that the law itself and the reasoning behind the arrests with regards the sacred meaning of the mountain to the Malaysian people, is ridiculous - and imo is rightfully being ridiculed by the "western snobs" in the media and online - the same way as I'd hope the both of us would ridicule such a law and arrest in relation to Croagh Patrick in Ireland (A mountain is a mountain is a mountain) So, while I agree that the tourists were all of the things you accuse them of, that still doesn't mean the idea of arresting people for posing for pictures topless on a mountain is not crazy in itself, and that the reasoning behind them, religious or otherwise, are something to be celebrating and rationalizing from behind our keyboards here in the west in some over the top tolerance contest. If we were both there on the mountain, obviously we'd follow the tour guides advice and show respect for their customs, but to focus all of your energy on the tourists behavior and ignore and view the law and beliefs as interesting and sign of the diversity of culture is absolutely condescending, and while it is not as disrespectful as behavior as the tourists, it's more damaging in the long run - you might think you are respectful and tolerant, but you're no different that those liberal apologists who make excuses for Islam every time there's a terrorist attack in the name of allah.

Triangla

There's a very old saying "When in Rome, do as the Romans do". If you go to a sovereign state and flout their laws and traditions, you can argue until the cows come home about the right or wrongs of the laws themselves.

Chances are though you'll do so from a prison cell or the wrong side of a whip.

jank

K4t wrote: »

Yes, yes, you are right in everything you have said there, and the majority of decent, intelligent people would agree with you, including myself (not that I'm decent or intelligent). My point from the beginning however, and still stands, is that the law itself and the reasoning behind the arrests with regards the sacred meaning of the mountain to the Malaysian people, is ridiculous - and imo is rightfully being ridiculed by the "western snobs" in the media and online - the same way as I'd hope the both of us would ridicule such a law and arrest in relation to Croagh Patrick in Ireland (A mountain is a mountain is a mountain) So, while I agree that the tourists were all of the things you accuse them of, that still doesn't mean the idea of arresting people for posing for pictures topless on a mountain is not crazy in itself, and that the reasoning behind them, religious or otherwise, are something to be celebrating and rationalizing from behind our keyboards here in the west in some over the top tolerance contest. If we were both there on the mountain, obviously we'd follow the tour guides advice and show respect for their customs, but to focus all of your energy on the tourists behavior and ignore and view the law and beliefs as interesting and sign of the diversity of culture is absolutely condescending, and while it is not as disrespectful as behavior as the tourists, it's more damaging in the long run - you might think you are respectful and tolerant, but you're no different that those liberal apologists who make excuses for Islam every time there's a terrorist attack in the name of allah.

Clearly you do not know my posting history in relation to Islam, particularly Islamofascisim and the way it corrupts many societies particularly those in the Middle East. The 'R' word has been branded at me many a time when I have spoken out against the more extreme variety of their ideology.

However, the world would be a lot better if more Middle Eastern countries would be like Malaysia. Would these guys have gotten naked say in Iran or Saudi? Not a hope in hell they would!

The rest of your post is meh. You seem to say that we should respect local customs and values yet then say its more damaging in the long run if we do not engage in some sort of collective finger waging at those 'primitive' Malaysians in Shabh with their stupid customs and rules.

Anyway, getting naked in many places in Ireland would be deemed a crime, for example outside a primary school.

Do you remember when some French bird did a semi striptease on Ayers Rock a number of years ago.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2010-06-28/uluru-stripper-just-wanted-to-rock/883870

The aboriginals were upset by it as to them, it is a highly sacred place. This was used as an example of 'oppression' exerted by Europeans on the indigenous people of Australia by some white middle class SJW's. No such narrative this time. Would you say that the aboriginals are stupid to hold such a place sacred and if so we should ridicule them?

K4t

jank wrote: »

Clearly you do not know my posting history in relation to Islam, particularly Islamofascisim and the way it corrupts many societies particularly those in the Middle East. The 'R' word has been branded at me many a time when I have spoken out against the more extreme variety of their ideology.

However, the world would be a lot better if more Middle Eastern countries would be like Malaysia. Would these guys have gotten naked say in Iran or Saudi? Not a hope in hell they would!

The world would be a lot better if people didn't assign sacred meaning to a mountain to such an extent that it's against the law for a few tourists to pose for topless pictures on top of it - that's not being a western snob, it's being rational - something you obviously think is beyond the capabilities of the Malaysian people. And again that doesn't mean I condone the behaviour of the tourists, and their attitude towards the tourguide trying to make a living as you so eloquently explained - the youngsters were idiots - but to criticize the tourists completely from behind your keyboard here in Ireland without questioning the logic behind such a law and the beliefs behind it, is equally as idiotic imo.

The rest of your post is meh. You seem to say that we should respect local customs and values yet then say its more damaging in the long run if we do not engage in some sort of collective finger waging at those 'primitive' Malaysians in Shabh with their stupid customs and rules.

Anyway, getting naked in many places in Ireland would be deemed a crime, for example outside a primary school.

Do you remember when some French bird did a semi striptease on Ayers Rock a number of years ago.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2010-06-28/uluru-stripper-just-wanted-to-rock/883870

The aboriginals were upset by it as to them, it is a highly sacred place. This was used as an example of 'oppression' exerted by Europeans on the indigenous people of Australia by some white middle class SJW's. No such narrative this time. Would you say that the aboriginals are stupid to hold such a place sacred and if so we should ridicule them?

Ah now, I never suggested finger wagging or ridicule - indeed my original post was simply to say how nobody deserves to be arrested for posing for a topless picture on top of a mountain - obviously they have that law in Malaysia and it would have been wise for them to obey it and respect the customs of the country they were in. We're not talking about primary schools, we're discussing mountains - afaik there are no primary schools built on top of mountains in Ireland yet. I don't know about the Aboriginal story nor do I really care - obviously tourists should respect the customs of the countries they visit while they are there, but again it's ridiculous to take offense at a person stripping on a mountain, especially for the reason that it's held sacred and such.

jank

K4t wrote: »

but to criticize the tourists completely from behind your keyboard here in Ireland without questioning the logic behind such a law and the beliefs behind it, is equally as idiotic imo.

Need I remind you again, that I have been up that mountain and have interacted with the locals as I spent the guts of 3 weeks in Sabah. I think I have a fair understanding of the locals morals and values are then some keyboard warrior who think anyone's opinion other then their own is 'stupid' and that any law they deem 'stupid' is indeed stupid.

K4t wrote: »

Ah now, I never suggested finger wagging or ridicule - indeed my original post was simply to say how nobody deserves to be arrested for posing for a topless picture on top of a mountain - obviously they have that law in Malaysia and it would have been wise for them to obey it and respect the customs of the country they were in. We're not talking about primary schools, we're discussing mountains - afaik there are no primary schools built on top of mountains in Ireland yet. I don't know about the Aboriginal story nor do I really care - obviously tourists should respect the customs of the countries they visit while they are there, but again it's ridiculous to take offense at a person stripping on a mountain, especially for the reason that it's held sacred and such.

You don't want to ridicule yet say that people who take offense of some bird doing a stiptease on top of, arguably the most scared site in Australia, is what? An idiot? THAT is ridiculing.

Again, you are just displaying a 'I know it all attitude' Not everyone in the world thinks like you nor do they hold the same ideas and values as you. Nor should it. People hold different things dear to them and it is not up to me or you to say that they are idiots because of this. You are displaying an attitude of a western snob who has barely traveled out of their own suburb.

Again, respect and tolerance. Words used a lot today but frankly most people wouldn't know them if it kicked them in the face.

K4t

jank wrote: »

You don't want to ridicule yet say that people who take offense of some bird doing a stiptease on top of, arguably the most scared site in Australia, is what? An idiot? THAT is ridiculing.

Again, you are just displaying a 'I know it all attitude' Not everyone in the world thinks like you nor do they hold the same ideas and values as you. Nor should it. People hold different things dear to them and it is not up to me or you to say that they are idiots because of this. You are displaying an attitude of a western snob who has barely traveled out of their own suburb.

Again, respect and tolerance. Words used a lot today but frankly most people wouldn't know them if it kicked them in the face.

Nope, it's not ridiculing anyone - it's at best ridiculing the beliefs behind it - which you should know is not the same thing, if as you have said, you have been accused of racism for criticism of Islam. I never said they were idiots - and of course I understand that people do not hold the same ideas or values - western snob? nothing term. I've explicitly said that I'd be saying the same thing if we had the same law concerning Croagh Patrick - it's not about west and east or Ireland versus Malaysia or the people.

I'll simply quote what I originally posted in this thread and maybe you might try and understand it now, instead of blindly jumping to the defense of Malaysian people supposedly under attack from the intolerant, western snob.

K4t wrote: »

Nobody deserves punishment for taking their clothes off on top of a mountain.