New left wing party. Will it succeed?

ChicagoJoe · 15-06-2015 7:05pm

Sinn Fein are now the big boys whether the mods like Oscar Bravo etc like it or not

. Not a bad idea this group, it will help Sinn Fein to pull them into line directly or indirectly whether they like it or not

Annasopra · 16-06-2015 12:27am

Rabo Karabekian wrote: »

I would never have placed Donnelly on the left wing spectrum. I know talking about left and right, especially in Ireland, is like walking in a swamp, but wouldn't his politics be economically free market and socially liberal? I would've thought his natural inclination would be towards a centre/centre right party.

As for Higgins being a communist because of his previous affiliations, I'm not sure that's fair. Most of the Labour leadership were hardline communists in their day, but certainly aren't anymore.

Absolutely. Donnelly came in on the coat tails of talk an alliance with Shane Ross.

He fascinates me a lot in that right wing people think he's quite right wing and left wing people think he's quite left wing. He's definitely very smart and intelligent and has an incredible ability to get pr for himself.

I'd half think about joining a party with Catherine Murphy involved but honestly not with one that has Shortall and Donnelly in it.

BoJack Horseman · 16-06-2015 12:32am

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I'd half think about joining a party with Catherine Murphy involved

You can....

www.workersparty.ie

Rabo Karabekian · 18-06-2015 8:28pm

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

You can....

www.workersparty.ie

Wasn't aware she was still a member of the Workers Party.

Sam Russell · 19-06-2015 10:32pm

I do not know how left the Labour Party is, but there will not be many of them left after the next election.

Brian? · 20-06-2015 8:47pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I'd put Donnelly to the right in terms of economics, but to the left socially.

A populist then?

I don't actually understand how one can be socially left and economically right wing. Anyone who is truly socially left wing would be unable to separate social and economic issues as the 2 are, IMO, inseparable.

|I would put Donnelly down as possible socially liberal, not left wing. It's easy enough be socially liberal and economically conservative. The Republican Party in the US used to be this way, the Democrats currently are. In Ireland, Fianna Fail and Fine Gael tried their best to walk this line for many many years. The PDs were exactly this.

Berserker · 22-06-2015 8:07pm

Brian? wrote: »

A populist then?

No, he would need to be on the left socially and economically to be populist here, a la the PBP & SF. Donnelly's realism with respect to economic issues would not be to the liking of the masses here.

Annasopra · 22-06-2015 8:12pm

Rabo Karabekian wrote: »

Wasn't aware she was still a member of the Workers Party.

She's definitely not. She left along with de Rossa et al to form Democratic Left and then for a short time Labour before being basically shoved out by Stagg

ComfortKid · 22-06-2015 8:36pm

This will be Labour under a different name.

Rabo Karabekian · 22-06-2015 9:19pm

Brian? wrote: »

A populist then?

I don't actually understand how one can be socially left and economically right wing. Anyone who is truly socially left wing would be unable to separate social and economic issues as the 2 are, IMO, inseparable.

|I would put Donnelly down as possible socially liberal, not left wing. It's easy enough be socially liberal and economically conservative. The Republican Party in the US used to be this way, the Democrats currently are. In Ireland, Fianna Fail and Fine Gael tried their best to walk this line for many many years. The PDs were exactly this.

How do you define socially left? I would have thought most would assume socially left equals socially liberal.

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

She's definitely not. She left along with de Rossa et al to form Democratic Left and then for a short time Labour before being basically shoved out by Stagg

I know, bad sarcasm post on my part.

Annasopra · 22-06-2015 9:23pm

Rabo Karabekian wrote: »

How do you define socially left? I would have thought most would assume socially left equals socially liberal.

I know, bad sarcasm post on my part.

Good question -I was wondering myself how that poster was differentiating between socially left and socially liberal

Chips Lovell · 23-06-2015 9:56am

Ever since his "We want our money back" speech, I've put him in the Populist Spoofer bracket.

Which is always a crowded market.

Sam Russell · 23-06-2015 10:26am

The reason Steven Donnelly entered politics is that he could not believe the stupidity of the bank guarantee.

His analysis in that speech is exactly right. We got a 'bailout' on condition we paid all of our debts plus those of the failed banks, and that money went largely to other European banks of which many would have failed had not the Irish Government not bailed them out.

His speech was actually asking for the return of this €64m, which was agreed to (in part) by a EU leaders meeting a few years ago. They have yet to deliver on that agreement.

So, yes, can we have our money back.

Chips Lovell · 23-06-2015 11:11am

Except the €64 billion Donnelly was demanding was never put into the banks. Which I'm sure he probably well knows.

Brian? · 23-06-2015 7:31pm

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Good question -I was wondering myself how that poster was differentiating between socially left and socially liberal

I'm not. Both are left of centre.

Rabo Karabekian · 23-06-2015 9:02pm

Brian? wrote: »

I'm not. Both are left of centre.

What's the difference between socially liberal and socially left?

Annasopra · 23-06-2015 10:39pm

Brian? wrote: »

I'm not. Both are left of centre.

What? You just differentiated between socially left and socially liberal - could you explain to us what you think the difference is?

Brian? · 24-06-2015 1:28am

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

What? You just differentiated between socially left and socially liberal - could you explain to us what you think the difference is?

Ah I see. I've confused myself here. Apologies.

I think I meant he's marginally left of centre on social policy, not left wing as in leaning socialist. The whole left/right paradigm is a grey area really.

ticklemetoe · 02-07-2015 1:07am

looks like the euro train is running out of track, the centre right party will lose the election on purpose and put the left in power just before it happens, when the SHTF the left will take the full blame and be unelectable for a generation

alaimacerc · 05-07-2015 5:19am

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

Ever since his "We want our money back" speech, I've put him in the Populist Spoofer bracket.

Which is always a crowded market.

It's the only real market. We're just haggling over the amount.

The proliferation of "left" groupings proves that the politicians are in denial that the left will get elected to power in Ireland on any foreseeable basis.

The proliferation of "right" groupings proves that the electorate are in denial that keeping doing the same thing and calling it something different won't work exactly right the next time.

alaimacerc · 05-07-2015 5:26am

ComfortKid wrote: »

This will be Labour under a different name.

Exactly. This is the "we need a left party, broader than the revolving door of Trots, with a more consistent and internationalist analysis than SF" grouping. Isn't a shame the name "Labour" is taken.

Or isn't it a shame the name "Labour" is fatally compromised, if you'd rather.

alaimacerc · 05-07-2015 5:34am

Brian? wrote: »

Ah I see. I've confused myself here. Apologies.

I think I meant he's marginally left of centre on social policy, not left wing as in leaning socialist. The whole left/right paradigm is a grey area really.

There's the "libertarian" zone, which would tell you that drugs, marriage, abortion (most of the time), free speech, freedom of religion, separation of church and states, foreign policy, etc, are the "social axis"...

... but that having enough to eat, access to housing, education, and healthcare are "economic axis".

A lot of European centrist parties would be slightly in that quadrant of the political market. German Free Democrats, incarnation of the LibDems just annihilated in the UK, etc. Amusingly, FF share a European grouping with them... and very little else. (Inherited it from the PDs, really.)

Brian? · 05-07-2015 11:18am

alaimacerc wrote: »

There's the "libertarian" zone, which would tell you that drugs, marriage, abortion (most of the time), free speech, freedom of religion, separation of church and states, foreign policy, etc, are the "social axis"...

... but that having enough to eat, access to housing, education, and healthcare are "economic axis".

I've seen those charts, I'm convinced they were conceived by libertarians to recruit new members.

A lot of European centrist parties would be slightly in that quadrant of the political market. German Free Democrats, incarnation of the LibDems just annihilated in the UK, etc. Amusingly, FF share a European grouping with them... and very little else. (Inherited it from the PDs, really.)

I think we should call that quadrant the "I'll tell you I believe whatever will get me elected" quadrant.

Brian? · 05-07-2015 11:21am

alaimacerc wrote: »

Exactly. This is the "we need a left party, broader than the revolving door of Trots, with a more consistent and internationalist analysis than SF" grouping. Isn't a shame the name "Labour" is taken.

Or isn't it a shame the name "Labour" is fatally compromised, if you'd rather.

What we need is a broad left party that puts workers rights front and centre. A "Workers Party" if you will. Anyone thought of that?

jank · 06-07-2015 9:49am

Brian? wrote: »

What we need is a broad left party that puts workers rights front and centre. A "Workers Party" if you will. Anyone thought of that?

Ireland already had one of those.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workers'_Party_of_Ireland

Ex members of the party are currently in Government.

Brian? · 06-07-2015 2:49pm

jank wrote: »

Ireland already had one of those.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workers'_Party_of_Ireland

Ex members of the party are currently in Government.

It was a joke. The workers party still exists in a very reduced form.

Icepick · 06-07-2015 6:01pm

We need a new liberal party.

Brian? · 06-07-2015 6:03pm

Icepick wrote: »

We need a new liberal party.

Why? We have FF, FG and Labour. All centrist liberal parties.

Quin_Dub · 06-07-2015 7:22pm

What we need are parties that stay where they claim to be from..

What we have are a tiny rump of extreme left wing socialists that remain forever true to their cause and then a whole clatter of parties somewhere in the middle floating slightly left and right on the tide of popular opinion...

Berserker · 06-07-2015 10:17pm

Icepick wrote: »

We need a new liberal party.

We have a parliament full of them. Every party backed SSM, if I remember correctly.

BoJack Horseman · 06-07-2015 11:24pm

Brian? wrote: »

Why? We have FF, FG and Labour. All centrist liberal parties.

Depends on the 'liberal' you speak of.

They are all statist, 'big government' tax & spenders.

Socially only Labour could be considered liberal.
SSM was easy, but neither FF or FG will ever allow a woman abortion rights anywhere near western norms.

Ireland could do with a liberal party, but we all know, Ireland doesn't want one

alaimacerc · 07-07-2015 2:59am

Quin_Dub wrote: »

What we have are a tiny rump of extreme left wing socialists that remain forever true to their cause and then a whole clatter of parties somewhere in the middle floating slightly left and right on the tide of popular opinion...

I'd hardly say that the 8th Amendment and the pro-cyclic boom and bust of the 2000s were the work of "slightly right" parties.

Quin_Dub · 07-07-2015 8:44am

alaimacerc wrote: »

I'd hardly say that the 8th Amendment and the pro-cyclic boom and bust of the 2000s were the work of "slightly right" parties.

They were all over the map though.. that's my point...

Right wing decisions around Finances but then hop over to the left to ramp up social welfare , child benefits , " removing X thousand from the tax net" etc. etc.

Berserker · 07-07-2015 8:48pm

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Socially only Labour could be considered liberal.
SSM was easy, but neither FF or FG will ever allow a woman abortion rights anywhere near western norms.

Divorce, abortion under certain circumstances? No right wing party would ever consider backing them. As for SSM, if they were right wing then it would have been a very easy decision, a clear 'No', without the need to give it a second thought.

Inquitus · 07-07-2015 8:49pm

No in answer to OP

Phoebas · 07-07-2015 9:15pm

Inquitus wrote: »

No in answer to OP

I know its been less than a month since I started this thread, but I haven't heard anything from them since.
I think you're right.

Phoebas · 12-07-2015 9:31am

Looks like there will be a formal launch of the new party next week.
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/shortall-murphy-and-donnelly-form-new-political-grouping-1.2282029

alaimacerc · 12-07-2015 9:37am

Phoebas wrote: »

Looks like there will be a formal launch of the new party next week.
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/shortall-murphy-and-donnelly-form-new-political-grouping-1.2282029

Or is that "grouping"?

IT wrote:

While Mr Donnelly is seen as tilting towards the right in economic policy, in contrast to the left-leaning views of the other two TDs, all three would be left-of-centre on social policy.

So... they on economic policy what Renua are on "matters if moral conscience (da bishop told me how ta vote)"? Definitely liberal on "social policy"... social justice there's an opt-out clause on?

All a little odd, methinks.

marmurr1916 · 15-07-2015 10:44pm

Another phone-box party - I think I'll start one next week.

Our policies? One for everyone in the audience.

hatrickpatrick · 16-07-2015 1:54am

The inclusion of Deputy Shortall in this new party is a little worrying, if it means they'll follow through with FG's ridiculous plans to increase the price of a bottle of beer to €2.20...

alaimacerc · 18-07-2015 9:35am

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

The inclusion of Deputy Shortall in this new party is a little worrying, if it means they'll follow through with FG's ridiculous plans to increase the price of a bottle of beer to €2.20...

Now there's what I'd call a 528th order worry. If one at all. You don't think it's somewhat more concerning that this is a redundant bunch of populist all-things-to-all-people reinventing the wheel types?

marmurr1916 wrote: »

Our policies? One for everyone in the audience.

If you don't mind them half-baked, warm, and very fuzzy around the edges, at least!

18-07-2015 6:55pm

alaimacerc wrote: »

So... they on economic policy what Renua are on "matters if moral conscience (da bishop told me how ta vote)"? Definitely liberal on "social policy"... social justice there's an opt-out clause on?

All a little odd, methinks.

Yep, it's like someone took a hacksaw to the Progressive Democrats; social policy went into the SDP; economic policy trotted off to Renua.

It's hard to take either of them seriously because they don't seem to have a whole political identity. Which is a shame: Donnelly & Creighton are both talented and intelligent TDs.

alaimacerc · 18-07-2015 7:01pm

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Yep, it's like someone took a hacksaw to the Progressive Democrats; social policy went into the SDP; economic policy trotted off to Renua.

Did the PDs really ever have any actual "progressive social policies"? Or just make vague mutterings about that, then crack on on with the vastly regressive economic stuff? I suppose the distinction might be pretty moot, given the small matter of coalition with FF.

It's hard to take either of them seriously because they don't seem to have a whole political identity.

Renua are FG without abortion. SDs are Labour without water charges. And in both cases, the "taint" of government -- and government with each other, what's more. Too much detail would just make that a little bit too obvious, so why no just keep a bit of possible deniability?

jank · 19-07-2015 2:53pm

alaimacerc wrote: »

Did the PDs really ever have any actual "progressive social policies"? Or just make vague mutterings about that, then crack on on with the vastly regressive economic stuff? I suppose the distinction might be pretty moot, given the small matter of coalition with FF.

Renua are FG without abortion. SDs are Labour without water charges. And in both cases, the "taint" of government -- and government with each other, what's more. Too much detail would just make that a little bit too obvious, so why no just keep a bit of possible deniability?

You need to read up on the history of the PD's and its formation in the 80's. A big split emerged because FF were much more socially conservative than the PD's, just take for example contraception.

19-07-2015 3:00pm

alaimacerc wrote: »

Did the PDs really ever have any actual "progressive social policies"? Or just make vague mutterings about that, then crack on on with the vastly regressive economic stuff?

Yeah, you're right the overwhelming focus was on economic policy. PD manifestos were very weak on social issues from 1997 onwards. They were at least socially liberal in an official sense, I suppose, even if they did damn-all about it.

DarkyHughes · 20-07-2015 4:59pm

Well we've never had a nothing but right-wing parties in power since the Irish Republic was dissolved in 1922 & all the parties since the Free State era have been right-wing. So I hope this new party or Sinn Fein can take power. I just really hope it's not FG again

Chips Lovell · 20-07-2015 5:22pm

Ummm, Labour and the Greens are both left of centre and have been part of the last two governments, albeit a junior partner. FG, yeah, solidly right of centre, Christian Democrat types. FF, if you're feeling generous you can describe them as centrist; if not, a populist party trying to be all things to all people.

I wouldn't really class the likes of SF, PBP, AAA or SWP as properly left wing. In reality they're even more populist than FF in their pomp. Which takes some doing.

New left wing party. Will it succeed?

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